I was having a discussion with someone in the janet thread about 2 pac and that he was not a thug
The media has chosen to show 2PAC in a bad light like they do most black artists, he first and foremost was an artist, poet social comentator
but people say he was just a thug ???
Elvis went to war and shot up VIETNAM or wherever, people don't look at him and say "Killer" or "thug" no his a ledgend and singer foremost
or Madonna's admission to drug use and casual sex in the past
do you look at her and say "She's a crack whore. period"
opps no that's Whitney right?
or Michael Jackson been shot down when he used the line "jew me" in his song, the media went crazy
but What about Eminem and Jlo calling us Nigga??
Eminem was as young, he didn't mean it"
"But Jlo use to fuck Puffy, so she can say it"
double standards?

Yes I did just finish reading Michael Moore's "Stupid white men" and I'm livid LOL



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[This message was edited Wed Dec 3 17:51:05 PST 2003 by twink69]

Ask yourself these same questions?

When 2Pac presented himself to the media, he had "Thug Life" tattooed across his abdomen for the world to see. Almost every article of clothing he wore represented "Thug Life" And as artistic and poetic as he may of been, that's not the way HE presented himself. If he didn't want to be remembered that way, why did he present himself that way.

Madonna presented herself as a whore from the beginning. As a result, nobody expected any less from her. After the tremendous success of her sophomore album Whitney presented herself as a classy diva who was above "inner city" lifestyle of crack, weed, baby-mama drama. , married Bobby Brown and things just went downhill from there.


Blame Dr. Dre, Eazy-E and the rest of N.W.A for the commercializtion of the word nigga. Because once they started the controversy everyone including white people began to buy their records.


I'll come back to this, I've got to go eat dinner.

and for the record, jlo caught a lot of heat for using 'nigger'. she can't help it if people still buy her records.

and furthermore, who cares if eminem uses the word 'nigga' in his music. he is part of the rap world. last time i checked, that word is dropped a lot in rap. does it matter that he's white? why? if it is an offensive word, its an offensive word. regardless of whom is speaking it.

oh yeah, and michael jackson did get shit for saying 'jew me' and 'kyke me'. that was not a race thing. white people who've said similar things were just as blacklisted.

twink69 said:

my point was with black artists people always focus on negative first
like before you said 2pac was thug period. why is he not an artist first?
There is so much double standard and racism in music and society. The comment you said that anyone can now use the word nigger, that was plain and simple ignorance, I don't know where to start

If you think it's a boring irrelevant thread, then don't read it, It's funny how people react when someone talks about racism, yawn "It's so yesterday"
sorry let's get back to the imporatnce and impact of Britney's new hairstyle on fashion
[This message was edited Wed Dec 3 18:53:10 PST 2003 by twink69]

twink69 said:

you missed my whole point regarding 'nigger'. my point was NO ONE SHOULD USE IT. not blacks, not whites. it is a word created out of hate. it is used out of ignorance, fear and hatred. why do you think our society has accepted its use by blacks but no one else. because it helps to make people look ignorant. we, by all means, live in a racist society. but there is far more manipulation than you seem to be aware of. you sit here and criticize me for my opinions regarding a rapper who represented himself in a negative light yet you haven't contributed much, if anything, to the racial discussions going on in the politics and religion forum. don't hurl accusations at me when you seem to be ignorant to the reality of the world.

twink69 said:

I shouldn't respond to this post. I shouldn't. I won't. No.


But...

"Elvis went to war and shot up VIETNAM or wherever"...

are you serious about this post??

You're using 2Pac, Whitney, and MJ, given the tremendous amount of respect and sales these artists have received, as examples of victims of racism?

I wouldn't have agreed with you regardless of the artists you would have selected. In my opinion, given that just recently all 10 of the top ten artists on the charts were black, it's pretty hard to call black musicians victims of anything but typecasting. Still couldn't you have at least used some better examples to at least back up your claims?

No, I do not believe these artists were/are victims of a racist society.

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

That's my point 2PAC didn't potray himself in a bad light (That was the media) he was telling a story, his theory was to tell people on how bad things are for some communities and hope the world would realise these people need help, he never said he was a role model (he was far from), he was just
speaking about what was happening, but because of his radical approach and background he was labelled and dismissed as a no good gangsta because hit fitted a streotype,
Where as white artist can get away with a shady past "a pat on the back and praised over coming obversity"
I'm not saying your racist,
Hey even I called "Whitney a crack whore"
I'm just pointing out the double standards and racist (albeit sub concious or blindly) we are lead to think

savoirfaire said:

MJ, Whitney, 2Pac and every African American is LITERALLY the product of a racist society. Descended from slaves stolen away from their homeland and faced every abuse imaginable. Jim Crow apartheid etc all barely thirty years ago. The negative spiral of the USA's racial disparity should never be played down as it's always there.

twink69 said:

look, it doesn't matter if 2pac saw himself as a role model or not. he was one. kids looked up to him. and regardless of what his message was, the way he went about telling it fed right into the mainstream stereotype of young, urban, black men. he didn't help the prejudices that already exist. i'm not saying he was bad person. hell, i didn't know him. but i did hear him speak. i did see how he presented himself. it was not a posiive thing. even if he thought it was. every other word out of his mouth was a curse. there was violence prevelant in his lyrics. and when he spoke, he sounded unintelligent. i'm sorry if i offend. i'm just calling it as i see it.

You don't think that media has treated for example Eminem and 2PAC differently? EM can be homophobic, make racial remarks, beat his wife ext but yet will give him Oscar and call him artist
but PAC is just a no good gangsta
I think black artist are treated differently in the media
My example of 2PAC and Whitney are perfect examples
Whitney is "crack whore" and her carer is over but Robert Downey JR, give him an ememy, a lead role everytime he comes out jail. Whitney's treatment may also be because she is a female

imnotsayinthisjust2bnasty said:

What system is continuing to create the negative areas of a 2Pac's personality? It's nurture not nature but if you don't want to accept racism exists then you'll never learn.

twink69 said:

i completely agree with you. there is a huge double standard. but we know this. use this knowledge to change things rather than give the media what they want. if you stop acting the fool the media can't make you look like one. turn the tables. do you see what i'm saying? i'mnot saying its fair. i'm just saying that the only way to change the system is to change ourselves. stop watching these modern day minstrel shows on tv. stop giving your money to these rappers who degrade women and glorify "bling-blingin'". get vocal on the double standards and do it intelligently and respectfully. no one listens to someone who sounds ghetto. except those in the ghetto.

MD7 said:

are you insane?

all of my posts have been talking about racism and the extent to which it creeps into our lives. the fact that we have been conditioned to accept the trash that is force fed to our eyes and ears. i would never deny racism exists, especially in america. my problem is how americans deal with this racism.

2PAC did not ever sound uninteligent,
I don't think you are actually are aware of 2PAC's work, you just know the misconstrude perseption of him
you also said Alicia Keys sounded un intelligent, just because they don't speak like "leave it to beaver" doesn't make someone unintelligent



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[This message was edited Wed Dec 3 19:28:53 PST 2003 by twink69]

twink69 said:

i know this. unfortunately, there are acceptable methods of communication and speech. you could have the brightest ideas in the world but if you don't learn how to successfully express those thoughts, in a way that people will pay attention, you may as well have nothing to say. and there is nothing wrong with that. if i go to france and speak broken french, no one would listen to me because i would sound unintelligent. even if i was briliant with the english language. i might get some people to listen because they would understand that i was a foreigner. but people who speak with urban slang all the time (hey, i don't speak with perfect annunciation all the time) just sound like they are speaking broken english...yet english is there first tongue. look at prince. when he sings, he can use all the slang he wants. but when prince speaks he is very clear and sounds very intelligent. soory but i don't think slang sounds educated.

I don't get the whole "stop acting a certain way then will accept you"
so what if 2pac or Alicia Keys talks in a ghetto accent
why should they stop because america thinks it sounds unintelligent, it's part of the black community why not emrace instead of telling them to get rid of it
Why doesn't Britney and President bush stop talking like hillbillies, now that sound unintelligent
Australians speak differently to American as do the English all different, why don't they change it?
do you think the brits sound unintelligent because they speak slightly different english to America?
(please excuse my grammer it's 3)


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[This message was edited Wed Dec 3 19:38:35 PST 2003 by twink69]

twink69 said:

bush and britney both get lots of slack for the way they talk. but more importantly, lets deal with this:



why is it part of the black community? why should it be embraced? is it part of the black community because poor neighborhoods have poor educational funds? is it part of the black community because many of the black role models perpetuate it? if a white kid speaks like that in his/her english class they will be ridiculed. why is this not the case with black students? why is it accepted? why are well spoken black men the blunt of jokes on black sitcoms? this is the media's work. the same media that focuses on blacks who portray a caricatural image of black americans. we should NOT embrace something that, in the long run, will help to keep black americans down.

twink69 said:

How's Lil Kim, Ludacris, and 50-cent doing these days? Hmm. among others

This is all crap...these artists chose to
either follow their "publc lifestyle"
to make money or risk losing (they think) the fans they have.

Twink, you should know that probably high percentage of popular culture comes from black entertainment. And once an entertainer (especially a black entertainer) crosses over into mainstream, not only are they being watched by their original target audience but they are being watched by masses and have assumed the responsibility as a trendsetter. At that point, they have a responsibility to suffer the consequences of what they say and do in front of the media on behalf of their culture.

michael jackson is a victim of himself. he had huge success as a black man and it went downhill the more he physically changed himself with surgery. that is how he lost support in both the black and white communities. if you look at all the other stars out there who have had plastic surgery from dolly to cher, they are made fun of too.

whitney houston has not suffered in her career because she is black. until this last album she was huge. the album is only so-so and she did not promote it. she is still around. her career is not over. she just released a christmas album and is talking about acting projects. as far as her drug use, she has got off easy compared to numerous other stars. she has eluded jail unlike some of her white counterparts and just so you know, robert downey jr. is suffering in his career. woody allen just had to drop him from his movie because it costs to much to insure him.

and tu-pac, he's dead son and he has a thriving career. he was smart enough to know what image to project and he also knew that he would die young. it's on tape. he said it. he knew he couldn't go around acting like he was. a thug. and stay alive. he had his struggles and died for them. most people respect '2 pac. them calling him a thug is not a diss. it's the cool thing for the last decade now.
all sorts of popular artists use the term. like mary j. blige who if you remember had a terrible drug problem and has got through it with her career intact and was not made out to be a victim.

racism exists yes, but, not the way you are trying to say.

You're all missing the point. These celebrities aren't the victims here. They're getting paid. The victims are the children without guidance who look up to these people or are put off by them due to the images the media and the celebrities choose to display.

2Pac is just as responsible as the media for his thug image if not moreso. He had the choice of whether to run around with Thug Life tatooes, no shirt, blunts, guns, and bandanas knowing-- right or wrong-- the message that it would send. 2Pac, Whitney, and MJ are flawed individuals like we all are but they sold their souls for fame and fortune and for that there's a price to pay.

tupac shakur was a soldier

this brother fought for freedom

he slayed opression with his lyrics

his song lives on as does

the mighty music of black america

where in lies our spirit

no one can silence what God gave

twink69 said:

R Kelly?



PEACE N B WiLD!!!

twink69 said:

THE HELL HE DIDNT MAKE THAT CHOICE!! He created that image himself. Look back to the Digital Underground days when 2pac miraculously DIDNT have a thug image and still was a part of a platinum selling group.
no white person made him strut his shit like an asshole in a courtroom when he was on trial for a serious offense. no white person made him tattoo Thug Life on himself.

and comparing glorifying a gang lifestyle to Elvis going to war as part of our military? there is a difference. one of those lifestyles is honorable, the other is an embarrassment.

whodknee said:

interesting...we are all flawed but yet..THEY sold their souls for fame? HUH?

Entertainers are products of the larger society. When will we stop blaming others for why we don't parent our children and manage our households. If your child doesn't view, you, a teacher or someone you may deem positive as a mentor or role model, that's not the fault of these artists. I think there is a balance and lessons that can be learned and pointed out in all of these artists. Tupac WAS a very balanced young man and more "cultured" than the media has shown. Its my responsiblity to share that with my child. Its my responsibility to let my daughter hear Whitney's beautiful voice and also show what drugs will do to your life. The media has always been unbalanced when it comes to people of color. Its time that people stop looking to blame entertainers for what is happening with our children.