I was speaking to my cousin about several subjects last night including the MJ thing, the Eminem thing and the R. Kelly thing. We discussed what Eminem said to great detail and the more I talk about it, the sadder it makes me that he would say something like that BUT it also makes me sad that there is no uproar about how women are depicted in Hip-Hop period. As we were talking, an R. Kelly song was playing that stated:

"Everyday I'm surrounded by so many hoes."

Bitches and hoes, we are. Hoes and bitches. We are seen gyrating in hip-hop videos, half naked, disrespected by rappers of all colors but Em says something and there's this huge outcry. Why is it okay to say things like this about women at all? Anybody seen BET Uncut? While talking with my cousin about this, he said that there was a 'definition' of bitches and hoes and that these are women who sleep with men for money or want to hang around a guy because of what he has. He made a reference that "if you are not that type of woman, then they are not talking to you". I don't know if I buy that. Words like trick, bitch, hoe, chickenhead gots to go.

stymie said:

in all fairness, this is probably a very accurate statement... i'm almost positive that the kinda women that r. kelly surrounds himself with are best described as "hoes"... ...

EllisDee said:

Stop, EllisDee. I'm trying to be serious.

Man, I'm confused here!

This brotha in the avatar was in NuPwrSoul's avatar, now its in EllisDee's. Are they the same person? Juss wondering!

Back 2 yo thread, Stymie!

LOL Its really funny how we hear "Bitches ain't nuthin' but holes to me" or "Niggas wih 1/2-inch and a vibrator" lol its HIP-HOP man, it supposed to be uplifting.

Luckily, there're afew who shed the light on the real hip-hop.

Ahhh,,,I don't even hear it nowadays anymo'!

This is defintely a touchy subject because it can go both ways:
First of all not defending the rappers that degrade women in any way but most of the time they aren't speaking of all women - the fact of the matter is some women are bitches and hoes - (Trust me I know a couple) and the girls in the videos back them up on their statement.
Second, We definitely do need more hip hop artist (like common) who concentrate on the women who are of substance (which I happen to know a couple of as well) LOL

My point is we definitely should focus more on our positive points in hip hop - The media does enough focusing on the negative aspects for everyone!

LMAO@WB's trying to make R-A-P PC.
[This message was edited Fri Nov 21 9:14:14 PST 2003 by BlaqueKnight]

BlaqueKnight said:

Huh? Sorry, maybe I'm slow.Can you please explain what you mean.

SweetKreme said:

Yeah, to me, too. BK was one of the main people whose opinion I am interested in.

Harlepolis said:

No we're not the same person. Kinda sorta related. And kinda sorta lookalike. So from the beginning it was EllisDee in that pic I finally let him have it back.

Once I get a decent pic, I'll use it as my avatar.

NuPwrSoul said:

NPS, you know I'm dying to get your take on this...PLEASE?

NuPwrSoul said:

Ok, I'm mo' confused!

That brotha is actualy EllisDee, right?

Man lol something tells me you're playing a joke on me

Maybe some good will come out of this. Maybe all those rappers who have degraded women in the past will look at themselves and see how really vulgar their words are. I mean, everybody had a mama. When she was laying up on that table passing they little scraggly butts through a pin hole, or being cut open, she was no hoe nor bitch, she was an WOMAN giving life.

The yo mama edit
[This message was edited Fri Nov 21 10:55:38 PST 2003 by Blackcat]

stymie said:

Beautiful. You made me get all emotional and start singing U.N.I.T.Y.! I have a lot of explaining to do to my boss...

stymie said:

Here's my take...

Black people should not be surprised that eminem used this language. We (whoever we are) let him into a (our?) cultural space where this kind of language was acceptable; and he forgot himself and freely used words that we freely use.

That applies to his use of hoes and bitches etc.

HOWEVER, eminem's resort to racializing his use of the terms does speak to the fact that even though he may have been granted a ghetto pass, he was well aware of his whiteness and at the slightest bit frustration or annoyance with someone black would resort to playing his own race card.

It's like this... when black rappers who are in the black community refer to women as bitches and hoes (which I find unacceptable unless of course they are talking about specific people who have acted as such but most are not)... anyway, when they refer to women and bitches and hoes it is understood that they are referring to black women cuz they are in the black community. It does not need to be said.

When em did his song, however, he made specific reference to black women as being different and distinct from himself. He is talking about a "they" a "them" those "others" of which he is not a part. That is very different. VERY DIFFERENT.

So to sum up my thoughts:

1. Black men should not use these terms to refer to any women, much less black women.

2. That when they DO use these terms: while it is understood that they are referring to black women, they never state it explicitly. It is an intra-racial issue but is not racialized.

3. When Eminem used these terms, he combined them with a racialized understanding (don't date black girls etc.) he clearly is not talking about "us" from within an "us" mindset. He is setting himself apart from the "us," exercising the benefit of white privilege.

Sure he may be down, he may be able to rap well, and he may have lots of black friends. But let some shit go down, and he will become white real quick and get the fuck outta dodge.

This is not new. It is a time worn play that has been in effect since the jazz age when white patrons went to black neighborhoods to "slum" or later when the beatniks went for their "spade kicks" ... seeing and using black people as a trope for degeneracy, all the while knowing that at the end of the day they could remove themselves from it, clean up, shave, cut their hair, put on a suit, and move along.

NuPwrSoul said:

Exactly.

Have you ever heard any of Foxy Brown, Lil' Kim, or Rah Digga's music? Them "Hoes" don't pull no punches when they're talkin about men. :Lol:

Seriously though, I think the terms "bitches & hoes" are generic and are usually said in a lighthearted way without the true definitions really intended. I hear a lot of guys refer to women this way except when referring to the women in their life (not saying that it's right). There are also times when these terms are used and it's heartfelt and you know whoever is saying is sincere about getting across his opinion of this person's character.

It's unfortunate that these terms have been used so often that many have become desensitized to there true meaning and don't realize how hurtful these words are to some, I can't say I'm totally innocent in all of this.

One thing that made me respect Ice-T back when he was hot was the song "99 Problems (and a Bitch Ain't One)", where he was going through a long line of his various "bitches" and at one point he says "I got a bitch that's a MAN".

WHAAA???

Either he was reeeally pushing the gay-friendly element there, or else he was making a good point - the definition of a "ho" or a "bitch" or a "slut" has nothing to do with women. In a perfect world, we'd have enough class to just not use the words, but in a perfect world, people wouldn't be untrustworthy, exploitive, lecherous, objectifying, shallow and/or transparently opportunistic.

When hip-hop lyrics are at their best, they take off the kid gloves where morals and ethics are concerned, and things are said that burn, but they burn in what is ultimately a good way...then you get goons who only know how to write on a surface level, and for the immediate gratification of shock value and sheep-like posturing. They always seem to fall to the bottom after a coupla years, though...

...and with Em, I'd like to think he's at a poop or get off the pot place in his career right now. He's done the shocking lyrics thing to death - he's managed to piss off women, gays, other celebrities, and now something he did years ago is pissing off the black community. Would he record himself saying the same stuff today that he said into a mic years ago? Should that consideration even matter? Are we all held to every single thing we've said in our lives, no matter how insignificant or fleeting we thought it was at the time? Maybe we should be. And maybe this is a good time for Em to give his whole "bad boy" thing the ol' "Been there, done that" and take his game a little higher. But that probably won't happen.

Right now, it's a really depressing time to look to popular culture for any kind of clarity on anything. Proceed with caution whenever turning on televisions or radios. Please.

I don't see why so many woman get offended by these words, because the truth is, there are women, ladies, bitches and hoes it's what makes us all so different.

EllisDee said:

And doesn't this beg the question that these are probably the women he attracts in the first place? And someone with this mentality probably considers all women bitches and hoes. My fake brother in law tries to teach his sons that all women are whores just because he's a bastard who cannot treat women with any sort of decency and when they no longer are willing to take his bullshit, they're whores.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Right, Supa!! I don't gather from the hip-hop I listen to that there is a distinction. That's my dilemma with this.

stymie said:

Laughing My Ass Off AT White Boys trying to make Rap Politically Correct.
I kinda didn't want to get too deep on this subject. Rap has NEVER been known for being politically correct. Only people outside the hip hop culture question the "when where and how's" of the use of the words "bitches and hos". Pick almost any of the rappers who use it most - let's say Snoop, DMX and Dre - ask them if they met their wives (yes they are ALL married) by approaching them in that way and they will say "Hell naw, muthafucka" because brothas know that if we approach a sista like that, we'll get a foot launched in our ass quicker than we can blink. The shit-talking stays on the records. ITS ENTERTAINMENT. Part of entertainment is fantasy. Part of the appeal of rap is its boldness. Why is it universal? Because so many people can relate to the fantasy aspect. Its fun to HEAR people say and do things that you KNOW you won't do in everyday life. I don't know one man (straight man, anyway)who wouldn't like to walk up to, say Tyra Banks and say "Bitch, you're comin' with me. I'm bout to hit that ass right now...oh, and while we're in the car, give me some head, hoe!" Would you do it in real life? HELL NO! The REAL conversation would go something like this:
"Hi, Miss Banks
I've been a fan of yours for a long time now." (translation: I have been wanting to sleep with you for years)
"You're one of the most beautiful women in the world...blah, blah, blah..."(translation: I want to f--k the taste out of your mouth)
"Would you mind posing for a picture with me or giving me an autograph?" (translation: I know this is as close to getting to hit it as I'm EVER gonna get, so I'll take what I can get)
Point is, even with all the bitch/ho talk in hip hop that is used to emphasize the harshness of the streets, only in certain environments do you hear ACTUAL use of these terms (black strip clubs, The Source Awards afterparties, etc. Just kidding, sorta )
People don't go around offending each other like that all the time. Its all in context and circumstance. Its all about knowing WHEN to use the words and HOW. They aren't going anywhere.
For the record, for those attempting to assimilate into hip hop culture slowly, refrain from using those words in reference to somebody's momma or sister. You might get your dental work rearranged over it.

Anxiety said:

Yeah but thats like those who say that "fag" or "punk" has nothing to do with homosexuals... or that "nigger" has nothing to do with Black people. That it's being used as a "general" insult.

It ignores the fact that these insults originated in a specific sexality, gender, or racial contexts where they did (and some will contend still do) refer specifically and explicitly to a specific group of people.

FunkMistress said:

That's the first song that came to mind. Who you callin' a b*tch?

Do spelling variations, e.g. biatch, biotch, lessen the sting of the word?

I must admit, stymie, when i saw this thread i thought you had a list of them, and wanted us to add to it.

I love hip-hop's Bitches and Hoes!

Bitches With Problems (BWP)?
Hoes With Attitudes (HWA)?

UptownDeb said:

No, Deb.

BlaqueKnight said:

LMAO- Damn BK that was alot for that little abbreviation you were expecting my slow ass to catch on to.

BlaqueKnight said:

I don't doubt this is true (although I hope there are some men out there who think otherwise), what I can't understand is why? Does this thinking stem from lust? control? power? what?

Harlepolis said:

me and Nu are twins... you must've missed the thread on that...

NuPwrSoul said:

PREACH.