Joshy buh-bye



finally

2freaky4church1 said:

Like I said I will be pleasantly surprised if he wins. Even if he does it don't mean shit to my thesis... black folk been performing for white people for decades... and having to enter throu the kitchen and couldnt stay at the hotel where they could sing.

The Elvis phenonenon is always the better choice for America... but if even the "Elvis" can't do the job, the fact that America finds black ppl entertaining is no indication in and of itself that racism is not still at play.

Raven said:

Agreed! I really thought that America was going to be swept up in the marine mania but luckily they care about talent! I'm really glad I'm wrong.

NuPwrSoul said:

Do black folk not perform for black folk?



I thought I saw a couple at the Soul Train Music Awards.

jthad1129 said:

Umm you missed the point and context of this discussion. That point being

1. It has been historically difficult for black entertainers to achieve the same level of pop stardom as white entertainers with similar or less talent

2. Even on the rare occasion that black entertainers DO achieve the same level of pop stardom, it does not mean that racism is not at play; white America's appreciation of black entertainment does not necessarily translate into white America being anti-racist.

There is a long standing history of black performers who sang and danced for segregated white audiences at venues where black people themselves could not gain admittance.

To bring it back to American Idol, I initially stated that I would be pleasantly surprised if Reuben was selected as "America's Idol" in light of America's history and the state of pop music today. Tis all.

NuPwrSoul said:

I still disagree. It sounds like you're saying even when people aren't being racist, they're still being racist. It's been clear for weeks that the two best are Ruben and Clay. I don't think you can read anything racist in one wining over the other. And if you're going to talk racism, it cuts both ways. If Clay wins, to say he only won because he's white would be racist. It completely discounts the obvious talent he has.

You say "black folk been performing for white people for decades". If you want to look at it that way, the reverse has also been true. The subjects of this weeks show, the Bee Gees, were huge R&B artists. And were influenced by great R&B artists that preceded them. And then in turn influenced other performers, people like Michael Jackson.

But I guess you don't like that either - you'll probably say the Bee Gees were so successful because they are white. Never mind their incredible talent, both as singers and songwriters. And you'll say that Michael Jackson's success doesn't mean anything. Shoot - Michael tried the "I'll claim racism" game too. Sony spent around $50 million producing and promoting his last album, then he turned around and claimed sony executives being racist was why it wasn't a huge hit.

what a load of BS. He didn't think they were racists when he was riding the top with Thriller, but his career takes a dive because of his own weirdness, yet they stick by him, pouring money his way, and they're suddenly racists.

NuPwrSoul said:

1 - the most successful singer of the last 30 years is Michael Jackson

2 - it doesn't mean they are being racist either.

because something happened in history doesn't mean it's a significant factor now.
[This message was edited Wed May 7 20:16:33 PDT 2003 by alandail]

NuPwrSoul said:

Don't blame Ruben or me for America's history, it is that plain and simple, history. Please get in your time machine and zoom back to 2003. Look at the state of pop music album and singles chart today, you might see a familar face.

He be In da club

racism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

notice it doesn't say anything which race. It is true that in history a lot of white people did a lot of bad things to blacks. It is also true that in history a lot of white people put their life's at risk to put an end to this (my father and my uncle are two - both receiving death threats for their vocal and successful effort to integrate the electrical union in the 60s).

It is a slap in the face of the people of any color who have risked their lives to help ensure all who put for the effort are given the oppertunity to succeed to claim racism where it isn't an issue, such as the voting for this show.

jthad1129 said:

Yeah I know and it looks like minstrelsy for the most part. Ghetto fantasies for suburban consumption.

When I rode back with my time machine, I noticed that American culture did to, bringing with it updates of many past phenomena... slummin during the jazz age, etc.
[This message was edited Wed May 7 22:23:57 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

BlaqueKnight,NuPwrSoul,Janfriend,A Toast&You Three Broke it down&We Know How the Game&Hustle goes down.

alandail said:

First and foremost, props to your family members who actively put their lives and jobs on the line to secure justice for all people.

There are always degrees of discrimination, and I am certainly not suggesting that what goes on with a tv show is any where near the relevance or significance of other more serious forms of race-based discrimination; any more than Halle winning the Oscar is as relevant or significant as the 1964 civil rights act. Degrees.

Lastly, I actually was not the one to introduce the word "racism" into this conversation, as I believe it is a totally useless word now that has been stripped of any moral imperative or outrage or analytical power. I am more in favor of describing the particular phenomenon at play as it is... and to bring it back to Reuben... he comes to American Idol with several aesthetic handicaps that may cause people to not vote for him--his size and his color. Clay has his own aesthetic handicaps too that are somewhat different--he's not exactly boy band material and he sounds a bit effeminate when he talks.

The winner is going to be the one whose talent is able to convince people that those "handicaps" don't matter. I *am* contending that *if* Reuben wins I will be pleasantly surprised because when you list out all the "deficiencies" that they are bringing to the table, Reuben's (size and color) seem to be more weighty than Clays. Just my contention as it was in my first post on here... and I should have just left it at that rather than let it get into a free wielding convo on race which is all right too but is not the point of my initial post.
.
[This message was edited Wed May 7 22:41:05 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

NuPwrSoul said:

thanks - it's actually the thing I'm most proud of my father for doing. And I didn't even know about it until after he passed away (8 years ago now) and my uncle told me about it. Neither of them did it for attention, but rather because it was the right thing to do.

He did pass on the right values to me - which I in turn pass on to my children. My life is certaintly richer because of it.

As for our discussion - I am certain there are still racist people (of all colors) in america. However, I believe that this increasingly is more the exception rather than the norm, the reverse of conditions 40 years ago.

As we all work to teach our children the right values, it diminishes towards irrelevance. Having the issue raised where it isn't relevant is a block in this process. Perhaps not somuch in something like your post, but more so in things like Michael Jackson using it as a scapegoat for his album failing (by his standards of success).

jthad1129 said:

YEAH! 'BOUT FUCKIN' TIME! BACK TO THE BARRACKS YOU DUMB, NO-TALENT, RAT-VOICED HICK!

alandail said:

Michael wasn't claiming racism just because his album didn't sell. There was a history between him and Tommy Mottola and apparantly Tommy has made some racists comments which even his ex-wife Mariah said didn't surprise her, but wouldn't get into it. I honestly predict Kimberly will be eliminated next week, leaving one Black finalist and one White, just like last year. This was all planned when it was established who were the best two singers were. There was no way in hell "they" would let two Blacks be the final two. Middle America would be outraged! They'd be screaming "What is this, N****r Idol now??" Trust me on that one

spelling edit
[This message was edited Wed May 7 23:38:38 PDT 2003 by Janfriend]

Janfriend said:I honestly predict Kimberly will be eliminated next week, leaving one Black finalist and one White, just like last year. This was all planned when it was established who were the best two singers were. There was no way in hell "they" would let two Blacks be the final two. Middle America would be outraged! They'd be screaming "What is this, N*** Idol now??" Trust me on that one
[/quote]

Never mind that Clay is clearly a better singer than Kimberly. Kimberly actually had a worse week than Josh this week because of her poor song selection (even Simon thought so) - but Josh has done far worse than Kimberly overall, thus should have been the one to go.

Clay has had probably 5 of the top 6 vocal performances of the competion. I rank them like this
- Clay - To Love Somebody
- Ruben - How Can You Mend A Broken Heart
- Clay - Solitaire
- Clay - I could Not Ask for More
- Clay - Somewhere Out There
- Clay - Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me

Some of the comments Clay has gotten (paraphrased)
Robin Gibb - You have an absolutely fantastic voice
Randy Jackson - You came out to win this competition
Simon - That was the best I've heard in 3 years doing this
Neal Sedaka - I'd kill to produce your first album

I guess you're saying all of those comments are just a conspiracy against Kimberly, who clearly struggled this week?

NuPwrSoul said:

Dude. Don't even bother. Your points are EXCELLENT AND TRUE, but people often tend to choose what to believe and what not to. "WE" are not allowed the so-called luxury of pretending like that. Take comfort in knowing the TRUTH. Whether others face it or not is up to them and in no way changes the facts of the matter. I take the same stance, but hope for OPPOSITE results. I was probably one of the few that hoped Tamyera DIDN'T win - but thought she was the best. Contest winners usually have failed or short careers. (example: Sam What's-his-name white guy who won on Showtime at the Appollo) With things being the way they are with Luther (all prayers go out to him), it may just be Reuben's time. If he loses the "contest", he gets to go on with his career like Tamyera Grey is doing without having the American Idol moniker and obglitory AI appearences hanging as heavily over his head as the winner will. Also, contract negotiations may go a bit more smoothly whenit comes time to get bought out from 19 Entertainment. The real injustice was Josh over Trinese. Jarhead shoulda BEEN gone. Lucky for him, there was a war.

alandail said:

Never mind that the show is CULTURALLY BIASED overall. Hell, AMERICA is culturally biased overall. Its not the fault of the contestants because they knew that beforehand so they know what they are getting into from the jump, but to say that Clay is a flat out better vocalist when most of the songs that have been performed have been generally of the "pop" genre from pop orck to pop R&B, I think thats a biased assessment on your part. Clay is a bad ass without a doubt, but how would he do singing some Andre Crouch or Mahalia Jackson? Who knows? The fact that most of the songs on the show fall into a "comfort zone" of Idolwatchers and voters also plays a BIG part in how contestants come off. Also, Clay's performances haven't always been flawless, but the judges have been kinder on the comments in general with regards to Clay. And JOSH had SSSOOO many PITCHY performances and was STILL praised by the judges. I was amazed that they were even listening to the same show. Kimberly is in the same class of vocalist as Clay. If most of the songs were R&B, I'll bet Clay would have been struggling in the same manner that Kim was. Its really hard to sing in a genre that you are not used to AND BE JUDGED ON IT. "Middle America" usually thinks because THEY are listening to something, everybody else is, too. That's just not the case.
In reality, A&R reps would opt for someone with the "total package" to market because they want to sell merchandise just as much as they want to sell records. That doesn't mean that Clay or Reuben don't qualify to be stars; but REALLY. LOOK AT THE REAL AMERICAN IDOLS! Nuff said. America likes to root for the underdog ala Rocky, etc.

2freaky4church1 said:

DAMN, I gotta agree with your assessment of Kimberly. I've been thought she was the finest thing on that show for a while now. I'm diggin' that sexy as big body as well.
LOL!

I also think Ruben will win, but it'll be hella close! And if Clay does win (and I wouldn't see anything wrong with this either because I dig his voice too), it might be because a lot of white folk are into that jammin' the phone lines thing to repeatedly vote for their favs!

BlaqueKnight said:

How can you say the show is cultrually biased because of the song selections? The contestants pick their own songs. Only a few times has the catagory been limiting (i.e. the country rock night). One night it was the 60s - any song at all from the 60s. One night it was disco. One night the 70s. This week the Bee Gees, who have written music for people as diverse as Kenny Rogers and Dionne Warwick, from Barbara Striesand to Dianna Ross, and who have been covered by people as diverse as Elvis, Destiny's Child. How can you say To Love Somebody, a song written for Otis Redding, is anything but a soul song? Kimberly had a ton of Bee Gees songs she could have chosen that she would have done a better job on.

Also, the one it's been most biased against is Josh who is a country singer. Yet even here, Josh shares the blame in his song selection. Just this week he chose to butcher Jive Talkin' instead of pick one of the many country songs the Bee Gees have written.



They've also been pretty kind to Ruben, who some weeks has been coasting. And I pretty much expect kind comments from Paula for everyone - you have to really screw up to not get praise from here, but even then she often just says "you look sexy tonight". Simon has been pretty rude to Clay several times. His comments to Clay has shown the widest range I think, from high praise to high criticism.

alandail said:
They've also been pretty kind to Ruben, who some weeks has been coasting. And I pretty much expect kind comments from Paula for everyone - you have to really screw up to not get praise from here, but even then she often just says "you look sexy tonight". Simon has been pretty rude to Clay several times. His comments to Clay has shown the widest range I think, from high praise to high criticism.[/quote]


Reuben has NOT been coasting. The fact that you would even make that statement shows just how ridiculously biased you are. You need to admit what so many others already know - Josh isn't that good. I'm done with this thread.

NuPwr, that may be true, but at least you have to admit that todays black music is pretty awful, and the good stuff can't get played. White people are more eclectic in their musical tastes. You have to admit. I mean, some no talent like 50 Cent shouldn't even be arrested, let alone sell lots of cds.

alandail said:

Never mind that Clay is clearly a better singer than Kimberly. Kimberly actually had a worse week than Josh this week because of her poor song selection (even Simon thought so) - but Josh has done far worse than Kimberly overall, thus should have been the one to go.

Clay has had probably 5 of the top 6 vocal performances of the competion. I rank them like this
- Clay - To Love Somebody
- Ruben - How Can You Mend A Broken Heart
- Clay - Solitaire
- Clay - I could Not Ask for More
- Clay - Somewhere Out There
- Clay - Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me

Some of the comments Clay has gotten (paraphrased)
Robin Gibb - You have an absolutely fantastic voice
Randy Jackson - You came out to win this competition
Simon - That was the best I've heard in 3 years doing this
Neal Sedaka - I'd kill to produce your first album

I guess you're saying all of those comments are just a conspiracy against Kimberly, who clearly struggled this week?[/quote]


I didn't say anything about a conspiracy against Kimberly. I'm not claiming that, but you have to realise that racism still exists in the country on all levels. Just because you don't see Black people hanging from trees anymore doesn't mean that we're a fair society

CalhounSq said:

Me neither, Calhoun, I always thought Corey's voice was mediocre, at best. I'll take Ruben over him any day.

BlaqueKnight said:

[color=blue:99d5a5c185:413d66d8a2]Reuben has NOT been coasting. The fact that you would even make that statement shows just how ridiculously biased you are. You need to admit what so many others already know - Josh isn't that good. I'm done with this thread.[/quote]

I assume you mean clay, not josh.

But as for Ruben - even the judges commented that he was coasting - bringing the same kind of sound each week - warning him because Kimberly was making a dramatic move. He listened and came out with is best performace yet with How Can You Mend a Broken Heart.

alandail said:

I assume you mean clay, not josh.

But as for Ruben - even the judges commented that he was coasting - bringing the same kind of sound each week - warning him because Kimberly was making a dramatic move. He listened and came out with is best performace yet with How Can You Mend a Broken Heart.[/quote]



My predictions:

Ruben wins.
Clay becomes a Broadway star.
Kimberley Locke goes next week, but then goes on to become a major star and respected artist.
American Idol 3 will be won by a Latino/Latina

alandail said:

You ASSumed incorrectly. I MEANT JOSH. Josh isn't that good. Clay is a grat vocalist.

psychodelicide said:

Corey sucked and he got signed. What about Frenchie? I know, she's on Boardway but I want to hear a pop album from her. ANd when I saw pop record, I don't mean pop like Britney, (I assume Frenchie would do an R&B record that might have some killer pop ballads and maybe some hot dance) I just mean "not Boardway"!

yesterday, Josh had the nerve to say that Ruben will probably win because of the media hype, but in his heart he thinks Clay should win. What? the whole show is hype

Janfriend said:

Jarhead Josh is a no-talent redneck hick. How can he talk about "media hype" when the only reason he got as far as he did was because he was a Marine in the competition when the country was at war. Clay's a good singer, but he's a Broadway star, not a pop star. Ruben's got it going on on the pop front: big voice, big personality, big voice.