alandail said:

This show is about American Idol. Not American Singer. Just go peruse magazine covers and tell me how many heavy set black men you see being regarded as cover idol material?

NuPwrSoul said:

You said Tyrence lost because she was too brown - I see plenty of skinny black women on the covers of magazines. But the show is about america's singing idol. Not america's model idol. that's why they sing. And there is plenty of precident for a heavyset black man being a successful pop star. And Ruben would win if Clay wasn't in there. Clay isn't winning for his magazine cover looks, that's for sure.

alandail said:

Even the judges last night were disappointed that Reuben was in the bottom two... and tried to emphasize that the program was about singing. They understood the dynamics at play.

NuPwrSoul said:

what dynamics? Simom was in today's USA Today saying Ruben and Clay should be the final 2. That means two people were ahead of Ruben that that judge didn't think should be. The heavy black woman and the marine. where is the racial issue you keep harping on in that. The message from the judges is simple - don't vote for Josh because he's a marine when he's clearly not as good as the rest. Here's what Simon said


[This message was edited Thu May 1 20:36:09 PDT 2003 by alandail]

alandail said:

I'm talking about the judges' responses last night on the show. Esp. Randy and Paula. No one said anything but "we need to remind ppl that this is bout singing." Why would they say that if they didn't think something else was affecting people's decision making?

I'm not harping on any racial issue. I dont need to harp on it. It's already been widely documented in many instances that beauty aesthetics in America do not favor people of African descent, unless it is some kind of exoticized/mixed/biracial image.

"American Idol" should be about singing, but fact of the matter is, they're looking for "pop stars" and pop stars these days have to be able to do more than sing. Even the judges, including and especially Simon, referenced the need of having a "look" when they were doing auditions.

I'm not heavily invested in this phenom to care that much... only to observe that the further a woman is from the thin white blonde ideal or a man from the muscular tanned idea they are further from America's aesthetic ideals of beauty.

Even black people raised in this culture suffer this to the point of self hatred as do many white people who themselves do not see themselves in these constructed notions of beauty.

And to bring this all back to American Idol, like I said, I would be pleasantly surprised if Reuben is selected in spite of all this. It won't change the fact tho, that there are "types"--and if you don't fit that "type" you have an uphill battle.

And as far as Clay, you're right, he isn't that close to the aesthetic ideal either--he looks like a bird (can someone help him with his hair please!)... but he sure is closer than Reuben.

That fuck___up show is fixed. It's about who Amerikkka thinks is the most photogenic and who can half-ass hold a note. It's not about real talent. Just pop bulls___ that even yo' hillbilly ass mama can sing (those are the ones fixing it up). They love them some patriotic marine!!! He looks good, he's our boy and at least he can hold a note!!!irregardless. It has nothing to do with talent. And you better not look too African-American, or your Black ass will definitely be voted off by racist voters!!! How dare those Blacks come on this All American show!!! The hell with your great voice or presence!!! Ruben should win the whole thing. But you and I know Clay's going to win, because these people want to continue to reward America's Idol which is still a token white face!!! That show is a joke, and I'm definitely not wasting my time watching this stank show if it returns next season. It should be called White American Idols Need to Apply Only!!!

lennytunia said:

LMAO A lil more extreme way of sayin' it, but pretty much, especially this statement:

I still say the voting thus far disproves what both of you are saying.

If what you were saying is happening, Kimberly Caldwell would still be there. And the same judges who you say are telling people not to judge on looks were bending over themselves hyping Kimberly early on because they thought she had "the look". But America was smarter - they went with the talent and voted her off and left on Kimberly Lock instead. Kimberly Caldwell had the look. Kimberly Lock has the talent.

It gets really old to constantly hear people claim racism when the evidence shows otherwise. I repeat my assertion - this competetion is coming down to talent, not skin color, not looks. 3 of the final 5 are black. the best looking one of the final 5 got voted off. The geeky looking one is going to likely win.

The only aberation here is Josh - and if he were not in the marines, he would have been long gone too. He probably wouldn't have even made the final 12. His days are numbered - he's definately gone next week. That leaves these 3:

Clay - who has tons of singing talent.
Ruben - who has tons of singing talent.
Kimberly - who has tons of singing talent.

Once Josh is gone, the 3 people with the most singing ability will be the final 3, two of them being black. How can that be racist?

How can it be racist if Clay wins? Randy Jackson thinks Clay is an awesome singer. Is he being racist when he says that? Paula Abdul thinks Clay is an awesome singer. Is she being racist when she says that? Simon thinks Clay has done the best performances of the competition. Is Simon racist when he says that? Simon also being the one who told Josh he's not good enough to still be there. Every single guest judge has raved over Clay. Are they all being racist?

Or could it be that Clay has an awesome voice and deserves to win on his talent? If he wasn't in the competition, Ruben and Kimberly Lock would be the top two. I'll buy music from all 3 of them.

alandail said:

Continue to repeat your assertion. I'll continue to repeat mine. And the evidence--and I could care less about this tv show--in the real world supports my assertion that there's an ideal of American beauty which continues to shape the way people view others with degrees of favoritism or not.

From little, young children have been shown to prefer certain kinds of dolls over others with the distinction being the dolls skin color. Even black children have been raised to view white dolls with greater favoritism than black dolls. And that's just the beginning. I dont think it's a big leap to assume that the same kind of societal conditioning will carry through into this or any other show.

And you know what, it's okay. I'm not upset. I'm not surprised either.

This only "gets really old" because it's still happening.

NuPwrSoul said:

You mean stuff like Halle Berry being on the cover of People's sexiest people in america issue?
Or maybe Tiger Woods being the highest paid athelete?
Or Oprah being so popular?
Or black artist dominating the billboard top 10 singles chart?
or maybe it's the widespread popularity of people like Serena Williams, or Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant, or Shaq, or LeBron James, ...


You think maybe more dolls are white in the US because the population is predominately white? In china, most dolls are chinese. In Mexico, most dolls are mexican.

And if I wanted to, I could make a list like yours. White people are taught to beleive they can't jump. That they're slow. That they can't play basketball. That they can be running backs in football. They can't run track. I can go on and on too. But it's absurd. My son loves to play basketball - his dream is to be good enough to play in the NBA. He sure doesn't have many white role models to look up to, but he doesn't use that as an excuse to not put effort into becoming a better basketball player.

I'm sure there is still racism in America. But I'm also sure that a lot of people view things that aren't racist as rasism because they expect to see it that way. This american idol discussion is a perfect example. Looking at it objectively, how does a racist process start with all of america and end up with 3 of the 5 finalaists being black.

The whole OJ mess was another fine example of looking for something to be racism. I heard a lot of people say "OJ is only arrested because he's black". What a load of BS. OJ was arrested because he murdered two people and in the process left his own blood everywhere. He got off partly because his slime ball lawyer made the case about race. Robert Blake murdered his wife. Too bad for him that he's white and can't use a racism defense. And you don't hear white people claiming he's in jail because he's white.

When racism is claimed so often when it clearly isn't happening, it diminishes the discussion when it actualy does happen because it's like the boy who cried wolf.

back to music - how can it be considered racist to think Clay sings better than Ruben. I also happen to think Barry Gibb sings better than Prince. Does that make me racist? I also happen to think Prince is the most talented musician in the world - by a large margin. And I listen to Prince a good 75% of the time I listen to music. Still, if there was a singing competition, I'd have to pick Barry Gibb over Prince.

My own personal feelings about race are summed up in the song Race by Prince.

Race, in the space, I mark human
race, face the music, we're all bones when were dead
Race, in the space, I mark human
cut me, cut you, both our blood is red.
...
I don't want to know why those before us hated each other
I'd rather believe they never did
I'd rather believe there's hope for our kid
...

EDIT: I actually have a response that I believe counters each point that you have raised, and I actually posted it initially. But this would go on and on in order for a larger discussion of race and American popular culture to really be fruitful.

I decided instead to stick to the topic at hand,

alandail said:

I never said it is racist to think Clay sings better than Reuben. I just said that the American Idol competition is not simply about who can sing. It's about who has a "look" and Reuben and Trynece are further away from that "look" than Clay, Josh, or the light skinned black woman were.

That pretty much is my feeling on American Idol.

Idolize the Edit.
[This message was edited Fri May 2 1:03:22 PDT 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

alandail said:

You keep mentioning 3 of the 5 were Black, but that is exactly why America voted one off. They saw there were too many negroes up there and had to get rid of some to make it more "balanced" Though I think Josh will go home next week, I will not at all be surprised if Kimberly goes home. In terms of demographics, the 18-24 age range is what "they" (the industry) really goes after, so Clay will not fit there with his style. Ruben should win. He is a young Luther, Eddie, or Gerald. Since 09/11/01 America has been fixated with the military. Remember A.J. from the last season. He only got as far as he did because he made everyone sentimental with the national anthem he did for his audition. I really didn't think Kelly should ahve won over Tamyra. There is still a majority in this country and the majority wants what they can relate to

Janfriend said:

This is crazy - it's not racist for a black person to get voted off. The week before a white person got voted off. That wasn't racist either. You say yourself that Josh is only still around because of america's fixation with the military. It's not the industry who's voting either - it's america. The industry would have pumped Kimberly Caudwell to the top - they can just plug her into their machine and crank out a #1 album. But (except for Josh), America is, surprisingly enough, voting on talent (this year at least, I didn't watch last year, so can't comment on that).

It's not racist either if Clay wins. What is racist is to claim it's racism if Clay wins.

one more thing - I will be thrilled that the winner doesn't fit "their style". I'm sick of how generic the music industry has become. I don't even listen to the radio anymore because you can't even tell sometimes when one song ends and the next starts. Last years winners fit right into the mold too - their music could have been released by anyone that's already out there and does not stand out at all. This year, one things for sure, when Clay and Reuben release their albums, they'll come with a fresh sound. You'll know when it's their song being played.

Many viewers may believe they are voting according to talent. However, I, too, agree that race is often a very strong subconscious motivator for most of Middle America.

I've been worried about Trenyce all along because she is very dark, and even though black women of diverse colors accent the pop world now, they are usually several shades lighter than Trenyce. Don't even mention Halle Berry or Kim Locke for that matter.

Dark-skinned black women like Trenyce have been marketed as the loud-talking ghetto sisters or the maids, jokesters, etc. But Trenyce's stage presence is none of that. It is sultry and sexy, forcing America to challenge their stereotypes of what a desirable woman or entertainer is. It's interesting that Trenyce's essence never pulled a strong following like some of the others.

She lasted this long because of her immense talent and the others were so horrible that the subconscious race factor didn't become dominant until viewers realized there could be a final four with only one white singer (Locke is genetically half-white by the way). I'm sure producers wondered if their demographic would watch three blacks and Clay (whose over-enunciation is irritating and strips a sexy song to its cold, sterile bones.)

Someone pointed out on another site that the gender and racial composition of the final four this year parallels that of last year. Very suspicious.

SynthiaRose said:

Excellent post. Woohoo and you said it so much more graceful and calmer than I could have.

I guess I don't pay much attention to skin color, much less shades of skin color, because I really couldn't tell you who had darker skin - trenyce, whitney, Dianna Ross, Oprah, Whoopie, etc. I just look at Trenyce and what I noticed was she was the hottest one left on American Idol going into last week. And I wasn't surprised at all to see her in teh bottom 2 because Reuben, Clay and Kimberly are all better. What surprised me was that Josh wasn't the one that got voted off.

But looking back ath the whole series, I think Clay has probably the 5 best vocal performances of the show (I just downloaded them all off of WinMX).
Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me in the wild card round
Somewhere Out There in the round of 11
Someone Else's Star in the round of 10
I Could Not Ask For More in the round of 6
Solitare this past week in the round of 5

He just has a singing voice nobody else can touch.
[This message was edited Fri May 2 23:09:43 PDT 2003 by alandail]

SynthiaRose said:

That's my problem w/ Clay, he's way too stiff!! His voice is great, but I can see him singing for animated films or on Broadway. He's no popstar - they'll have to manufacture the hell out of him, he's just too fucking corny.

And for those of you who don't wanna admit it, race is definitely a factor when you're calculating the collective opinion of America (or should I say Middle America, lol)...

Just saw them together onstage earnestly singing some patriotic anthem.

Essence said:

right?

CalhounSq said:

Isn't that teh whole point here? Music in America has become more and more generic - and last year's show just gave America more of the same. Sure, Kelly Clarkson is a fine singer - but what's the point of having a nationwide talent search if the result is going to sound no different than what was on the radio before the search started.

That waht I think would be great about Clay winning this. He doesn't fit the industry pop-star mold. If Clay walked into any record company in the country with a demo tape, they wouldn't have given him the time of day. You say they have to manufacture the hell out of him, but that's not what has happened. Clay has been Clay. The geek with the great voice and America has shown they love him just the way he is. Any attempt to manufacture his sound is going to wreck why America likes him in the first place.

They keep telling him to dance. He doesn't have to dance. He can stay being the geek with the great voice. Look at Robin Gibb, this week's guest host. He's pretty much a geek with a great voice too. He can't dance. he can't play any instruments. Shoot, he can't even tap his foot to the beat. Instead of trying to manufcature himself, he has build a career few have topped just being who he is. He's an integral part of the 5th top selling act of all time (behind only Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney), and is in both the rock and roll hall of fame and the songwriters hall of fame.

Lets hope what comes out of American Idol 2 is a change in the industry. Send them the message that America wants more than the same generic pop stars. No more style over substance.

I thought you meant the show itself, now that's a lot of bullshi*.

alandail said:

That's a beautiful thought Alandial It's not that I want Clay to be cookie cutter, it really doesn't matter to me. That stuff isn't what I purchase anyway. But when you're talking about being a "pop star" the image of Clay doesn't spring to mind, lol. I hear what you're saying, it would be great to do something different, let a geek be a geek. But I wonder what will happen in the months of planning his album, refining his image, etc. You never know how he'll come out once he gets in the machine.

I'm sure if Clay wins, he'll sell. America has shown they like the guy. I won't be buying the shit b/c while his voice is great, the way he sings is annoying to me. But you'll support him & that's great 2 woots for Clay

there are two simons - teh simon that is the producer of the show is not the simon that's the judge.

Plus you completely contradited yourself. You first said America doesn't decide, then you said Simon was voicing his displeasure at what America decided.

Simon sure isn't in charge of the voting, otherwise Josh would have been long gone.

And about your argument of the majority always wants to see one of their own on top - if this were true, Prince never would have been on top. Neither would Michael Jackson. The problem has been the industry tries to decide what people want, and with this years show people are staying enough of that.

btw: The way the show is working out is good for the industry, but by far the best thing for the music industry this year is the new Apple iTunes Music Store. That pretty much changes all of the rules. Prince is dominating the R&B charts over there - with 8 of the top 100 tracks (More than anyone) and the #6 album.
[This message was edited Mon May 5 13:09:46 PDT 2003 by alandail]

alandail said:

Prince and Michael crossed over not soley on their talent, but also because the majority wasn't threatened by them

alandail said:

No. I did NOT contradict myself. If you're going to pick at a post, learn to do it properly. America DOES NOT pick the superstars that are on the charts. I see you have been taken in by the propaganda the media has fed you. Its alright. Most people have been as well. Do you think multi-million dollar corporations leave their multi-million dollar investments to CHANCE? Pluh-ease! Don't be naive. I said that the industry uses the show as a way to gauge public opinion, which helps in deciding public mindset, which in turn helps labels decide what to invest in. With that in mind, OF COURSE the show is doing well for the industry. Helping investors make smarter investments? HELLO? DUH?
I was wrong about the Simon thing. I was mistaken. Simon Fuller owns 19 Entertainment. Simon Cowell is the judge. My bad. That still doesn't mean that Simon was not privy to the information as to who won PRIOR to it being revealed to the general public. Television doesn't like surprises; networks usually go all out to make sure they don't happen unless they are in a controlled environment.
As for the majority (you said America...not me) usually wanting to see one of its own on top, that has been the general case with almost everything. There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to this. If you want to pretend that's not the case then do so. As for entertainers, MJ is the exception. There are exceptions to every rule. Even when Prince was "on top", he was on top because of the millions of $$$ of WB. The "majority" was well represented during that time and Prince was playing music that reflected what the "majority" was into at the time. That's another thread. I won't discuss it any further here.
Also, I didn't say that voters don't decide on the IDOL results. Only idiots with phones could make such stupid, untrained judgements. American Idol voting reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer's brother asked him to come up with the design for the company's new car. I suspect there are a lot of Homers calling in.

Ruben is obviously the best, but who really cares. American Idol is horrible. Music is about art, not stardom. I wish people would one day realize that.

And Kimberly is sexy as hell. Love that big body.


NuPWR, you are wrong son, Ruben will win it all, because good singing is good singing; just as a white girl once won Amauteur Night, at the Apollo. lol

Hurray!!! Josh is gone!! It's about time.

Now that he's gone, I really don't care who wins this thing.