im not being defensive i dont think.

i just find this kind of musical absolutism weird.

as far as elvis, i have to honestly say that i get that he had a lot of black influences, but i would never listen to a 50s elvis song and think it was a black artist, compared to other records by actual black artists of the time. elvis just sounds... like elvis. he had a very individual voice. same as, to use modern examples, timberlake or eminem. no one listens to those two and thinks, oh they are black artists, even if they are working within black genres.

country has black influences, as i said, but sometimes a genre, or an artist is more than just its roots. it goes beyond that to become something else of its own. rock n roll has black roots (as well as white ones), but i dont really hear the 'black' influence in foo fighters, metallica, or idk, sam fender. *shrug*

[Edited 8/29/22 3:41am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

im not being defensive i dont think.

i just find this kind of musical absolutism weird.

as far as elvis, i have to honestly say that i get that he had a lot of black influences, but i would never listen to a 50s elvis song and think it was a black artist, compared to other records by actual black artists of the time. elvis just sounds... like elvis. he had a very individual voice. same as, to use modern examples, timberlake or eminem. no one listens to those two and thinks, oh they are black artists, even if they are working within black genres.

Honestly his singing style and his voice was just mimicking the black singer on the original demo track. (see Roy Hamilton)
You associate Elvis's singing voice to him: a white guy. But I'm sure if you had heard Roy Hamilton do it first you'd assciate that style to a black man.

Foo Fighters, Metallica and Sam Fender aren't exactly singing songs written and previously recorded by black artist like Elvis did. So apples and oranges.

[Edited 8/29/22 3:46am]

dude, style, manner, etc, is one thing. how you actually sound in the end, even if you are 'mimicking' another person, is another matter.

i listen to (and im using early elvis examples to make it easier) blue moon, dont be cruel, love me tender, etc, i genuinely would never think elvis 'passed' vocally for a black singer of the same period. there is also a strand of a kind of 'cabaret' or 'supper club' (i cant think of a better term) influence in elvis' singing that people often forget about in the rush to declare him an artist impersonating black artists.

he might have been TRYING to pass (idk), but the end result is often diff to what the person wanted to sound like. a lot of good artists who started off trying to imitate, just ended up sounding diff anyway, as trying to replicate is often not that easy, unless you are an impersonator. i like a lot of 50s rock n roll and rnb, and i dont really listen to elvis, and think oh wow, that could be ____.

its like, theres plenty of white rappers out there, but guys like the the beastie boys or eminem just sounded white. yeah, their flows were patented on black rappers, but the end result, was not the same as say, run dmc or ll cool j (for the BBs), or later on, like nas, or jay-z (for eminem).

Foo Fighters, Metallica and Sam Fender aren't exactly singing songs written and previously recorded by black artist like Elvis did. So apples and oranges.

the point is, youre trying to say 'country is all black music anyway!', like what people say about rock music ('rock is black music!' even if its been led and innovated by mainly white artists for decades), but im telling you, it doesnt quite add up, once you listen to those genres, rather than simply apply musical academia.

[Edited 8/29/22 3:56am]

a bit of hendrix/elvis trivia i remembered reading in one of his bios -

https://www.elvis.com.au/presley/jimi-hendrix.shtml#:~:text=Young%20Hendrix%20was%20particularly%20fond,during%20the%20concert%20itself%2C%20in

Young Hendrix was particularly fond of Elvis Presley; the color drawing below, showing Elvis wielding a guitar, was made by an impressionable 15-year-old Hendrix two months after attending Presley's concert at Sick's Stadium on September 1, 1957, as a follow up to his note taking there, during the concert itself, in which he wrote down the entire line-up of songs he heard Presley sing that night. Both documents can still be seen at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

the point is, youre trying to say 'country is all black music anyway!', like what people say about rock music ('rock is black music!' even if its been led and innovated by mainly white artists for decades), but im telling you, it doesnt quite add up, once you listen to those genres, rather than simply apply musical academia.

[Edited 8/29/22 3:56am]

In music of that time i hear more black 'influences' in Elvis then white and it's not about him trying to sound black, it about him taking what black artists did, copy it and poorly conpensate them for it and then be given the title 'The King of Rock and Roll' and at the same time insulting Chuck Berry and the like who was actually inventing it.
And there's a really white reason you didn't hear from quite innovative Black rock bands for decades (Funkadelic, Mother's Finest and even Tower of Power for example) like you didn't see hardly any black act (be it rock or whatever) on MTV back in the 80s.

Doubt anyone is denying the racism in the music industry. That racism is what helped elvis, ofc. But im disputing why elvis himself always comes in for the hardest time, rather than the power structure that used him (elvis was ripped off too) like all artists.

As for elvis disrespecting chuck berry, idk about that. What did he say?

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Doubt anyone is denying the racism in the music industry. That racism is what helped elvis, ofc. But im disputing why elvis himself always comes in for the hardest time, rather than the power structure that used him (elvis was ripped off too) like all artists. As for elvis disrespecting chuck berry, idk about that. What did he say?

Not Elvis disrespecting Berry but the fact that the white system crowned him the King of Rock and Roll which is an insult to Berry and the like who were creating it.

JorisE73 said:

Not Elvis disrespecting Berry but the fact that the white system crowned him the King of Rock and Roll which is an insult to Berry and the like who were creating it.

That wasn't new though. Benny Goodman was called "King Of Swing" long before Elvis made a record. Elvis didn't even like that title. Elvis has said at different times that either Fats Domino or Jesus Christ is the real King.

Gooddoctor23 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvnQ3482TU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CVAz4QP4to

[Edited 8/19/22 1:01am]

Thanks for sharing these. Wow..just wow.

DonRants said:

Gooddoctor23 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvnQ3482TU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CVAz4QP4to

[Edited 8/19/22 1:01am]

Thanks for sharing these. Wow..just wow.

I had no idea.

I've never heard of Hamilton until now.

MickyDolenz said:

JorisE73 said:

Not Elvis disrespecting Berry but the fact that the white system crowned him the King of Rock and Roll which is an insult to Berry and the like who were creating it.

That wasn't new though. Benny Goodman was called "King Of Swing" long before Elvis made a record. Elvis didn't even like that title. Elvis has said at different times that either Fats Domino or Jesus Christ is the real King.

the industry will always do this.

the stones were clever and marketed themselves as the greatest rock band in the world themselves.

MJ did the same ofc calling himself the king of pop.

Little Richard always puts a smile on my face. He talks a little about Elvis in this interview, including Elvis recording the song "Tuttie Fruitti" and selling more copies than he did. He just saw it as opening more doors. Little Richard was such a larger than life character that he could not be ignored. So today his version of Tutti Fruiti is the one we all know.

https://www.youtube.com/w...tdzp52AmsE

JorisE73 said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

the point is, youre trying to say 'country is all black music anyway!', like what people say about rock music ('rock is black music!' even if its been led and innovated by mainly white artists for decades), but im telling you, it doesnt quite add up, once you listen to those genres, rather than simply apply musical academia.

[Edited 8/29/22 3:56am]

In music of that time i hear more black 'influences' in Elvis then white and it's not about him trying to sound black, it about him taking what black artists did, copy it and poorly conpensate them for it and then be given the title 'The King of Rock and Roll' and at the same time insulting Chuck Berry and the like who was actually inventing it.
And there's a really white reason you didn't hear from quite innovative Black rock bands for decades (Funkadelic, Mother's Finest and even Tower of Power for example) like you didn't see hardly any black act (be it rock or whatever) on MTV back in the 80s.

RJOrion said:

Word...he's well known and well documented as a thief...also a terribly overrated singer, he couldnt dance, and he was a terrible actor...ive always been confused as to why he was ever "famous" in the first place... In the words of the great Flavor Flav.. "Mother F--- him, and John Wayne..." [Edited 8/20/22 8:32am]

RJOrion said:

JorisE73 said:

Flavor Flav said that, and he was right.

Yep, youre right...on both points.

So you call him "great" yet quote the wrong person. Oops. I can't do nuthin' for you man.

It is funny. As a 52 year old white Englishman, I grew up on Americana. Used to go to an Eatery in Sheffield called 'Yankees' Posters of all the usual. Evel, Farah, Ali, Linda Carter The Duke Boys etc. I'm a big fan of Richard Pryor who LOVED John Wayne, I remember Ali's decline, remember Elvis dying and my Dad's reaction, loved 'Way Down' on the UK top 40. As a teen bought PE's 'Fear of a Black Planet' alongside my Prince, Madonna and MJ. I love Americana. Not sure why Americans hate their own. So weird and alien to me. It will never change.

[Edited 9/9/22 17:18pm]

RJOrion said:

Word...he's well known and well documented as a thief...also a terribly overrated singer, he couldnt dance, and he was a terrible actor...ive always been confused as to why he was ever "famous" in the first place... In the words of the great Flavor Flav.. "Mother F--- him, and John Wayne..." [Edited 8/20/22 8:32am]

U know your music, so put things into context.

It was the 1950's. Vocally he may of stolen fair enough, but young white girls had never seen anything like him at the time . Like has been said a 100 times, he was just a white kid who liked singing rnb. If you really can't see why he was famous then you are crazy.