Prince became a megastar with Purple Rain, but in europe he became really big with Sign of the Times and Lovesexy. Lovesexy was huge in Holland, i think it kinda flopped in the US.

MJ: Almost all the singles of Dangerous and History became hits in europe, not so much in the US.

Janet did hit after hit in US in the 80's and 90's, she was known in Europe, but not as this megastar where every song became a hit. I don't think she even got a top 10 hit out of rhythm nation.

I was always curious why its so different?

I think it's a couple of things, maybe. (Preemptively I'll say it could be literally anything, so anything anyone posts here is still purely conjecture.)

The U.S. consumer base is fickle as fuck. They want the big flashy stuff, and rarely goes deep to the more nuanced or off-center stuff. Purple Rain - popular. Lovesexy - too nuanced. The time had passed. He wasn't doing anything like he did in 1984, and that's where Americans tend to peg people: in their biggest moment.

MJ got a bit of a pass with Bad because it was the long-awaited follow up (five years later) to Thriller. People were ready for it. And coming out of the gates with a big video like "Bad," directed by another big name (like "Thriller" had Landis), then there was buzz around it. He tried it again with "Black or White," and while that video did get a huge amount of press, I don't much remember anyone talking about anything else on there. But, the videos for "Jam" and "Remember The Time" got a lot of play, partly because folks like Michael Jordan, Iman, Eddie Murphy, Heavy D., etc were in them. MJ didn't need other stars to make videos, but it didn't hurt either. MJ was about an event.

I also believe Europe has a different taste in music. Good examples are Kylie Minogue and Robbie Williams. Both talented people, great voices, etc. But their music just falls utterly flat in the U.S. I can name two RW songs that are decent, for me. "Rock DJ" (which heavily relies on a Barry Williams sample), and "Let Me Entertain You." That's it. Kylie - besides her 80's cover song hit, I can only really recall "Can't Get You Out Of My Head," which sounded a lot like "Amazing" by George Michael (which was written three and a half years after Minogues hit).

Minogue is' Europe's Madonna. She's huge everywhere, and while some of the gays love her here, she's not that big of a deal. I listened to Disco a few times, but it's fallen off my radar since then. So with so many hits, why isn't Minogue and Williams bigger here?

For me, their music sucks. Williams writes really weird songs. They're not artsy, avant-garde or catchy. They're just terrible. Brits eat that shit up like it's bottomless curry or fish n' chips. Doesn't mean Brits have bad taste. Quite the contrary. But it's cultural, to a large extent.

You have folks like George Michael or Elton John who are just as huge in the U.S. I believe that is because both of those men really tapped into American music. John had a great ear for song structure. Taupin provided those amazing stories in his lyrics. GM loved soul music. He covered a lot of Stevie Wonder music throughout his career. And not everyone just pulls out "As" or "Superstition" for shits and giggles. You gotta be able to hold your own with that. And GM knew his worth and talent as a singer, had the guts and fortitude to use it voice the way God intended. His purposely wrote songs based on Prince music, or Stevie Wonder vibes, or whatever. Robbie Williams can't sing "Living For The City" and not look like a total knob.

So, part of it is taste, part of it is fickleness, part is just society and what we grew up with, what we know. Americans will latch onto something, devour it for all its worth, then be done with it. (Although, that doesn't explain how fannypacks are still around but called Cross Body Bags.)

The 90s were a prime example of that with Euro-club music like La Bouche, Snap!, and others. America got into that for a hot minute in the 90s, then we moved on. Singer and a rapper - cool idea. What's next, bro?


Footnote: people dont want to be preached to, so when Prince got all spiritual, he lost a shit ton of followers. By the time MJ started speaking out on politics and being all angsty in his music, his image and reputation were so tainted, he never truly recovered from it. He never had a full redemption.

nextedition said:

Lovesexy was huge in Holland, i think it kinda flopped in the US.

Well that album cover didn't help it Some record stores in the US put it behind the counter and many department stores that sold records didn't stock it at all. I also think some people would not want to be seen buying it or having that picture at their house. It's not exactly like an Ohio Players cover. Just like today Walmart only sells the clean versions of albums, and not anything with a Parental Advisory sticker on it. Also the USA has a bigger population than the average European country. Why do you think all of those British acts tried to make it here? The "heartland" is also a large part of the USA, like the Farm Aid audience, who are less likely to be into Prince and more into stuff like country or Bob Seger & John Mellencamp.

MickyDolenz said:

nextedition said:

Nobody cared about the SB janet thing here either, as the US freaked out about a naked breast.

In the late 1980s, a lot of people wrote letters to or picketed the then new Fox network to try to get them to cancel TV shows like Married... With Children & The Simpsons. Then there was the Tipper Gore PMRC thing, which is why Parental Advisory stickers started in the first place. Even back in the 1950s, Elvis Presley would mostly be shown waist up on TV because of audience complaints. Also during the 1950s, parents tried to get comic books banned, and before that there was the Hays Code with movies, plus Joseph McCarthy getting entertainers, writers, & movie directors blacklisted. "Cancel culture" didn't just start with today's generation. It's always been around in some form in the USA. It's just the internet & social media made it more widespread & mainstream.

TrivialPursuit said:

nextedition said:

I think Brits have thing for funny British lads that are still 'normal', goofy. They embrace robbie Williams, Ed Sheeran etc.

Yeah, but does that make for good music?

RODSERLING said:

Sign O The Times was bigger in the US than in Europe.

In the US SOTT was #1 in airplay and #3 on Billboard,
U Got The Look was #1 Cashbox, #2 Billboard
I could Never Take the place of Your Man was #10 in the US
Without even talking about Girlfriend and Adore.

Prince singles never impacted much the Europe charts before the 90's. A few exceptions here and there ( Batdance), but that's all.

Lovesexy was never "big" Anywhere

Its always a weird thing with artists when they break and with what markets. Bon Jovi was huge in the USA but when grunge hit here and Jovi's sales slowed, they were royality overseas. It differs with European artistis too, some break in the USA then stop and then sell everywhere else but the USA.

nextedition said:

It's not only about charts

Yeah, Billboard radio hits is not always the way to determine popularity. People like Richard Clayderman, Yanni, & John Tesh sold a lot of albums without any Top 40 radio airplay. Kidz Bop albums were pretty good sellers. I think the music video with the most views on Youtube is Baby Shark and it wasn't a Top 10 hit. There's songs like Bad To The Bone by George Thorogood, Oh Yeah by Yello, & La Grange by ZZ Top that weren't big hits when originally released, but are more well known today than a lot of #1 hits. Even popular rock bands like Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, & Led Zeppelin had few radio hits but were big album sellers. In reverse, acts like The Supremes were more popular with singles than their albums.

nextedition said:

RODSERLING said:

Sign O The Times was bigger in the US than in Europe.

In the US SOTT was #1 in airplay and #3 on Billboard,
U Got The Look was #1 Cashbox, #2 Billboard
I could Never Take the place of Your Man was #10 in the US
Without even talking about Girlfriend and Adore.

Prince singles never impacted much the Europe charts before the 90's. A few exceptions here and there ( Batdance), but that's all.

Lovesexy was never "big" Anywhere

That's not true. Lovesexy was no 1 in Holland, He was at the top at that moment, selling out stadiums. It's not only about charts, he was everywhere at that moment.
But talking about sign of the times, knowing that IIWYG was a hit in Holland shows the difference between the US and Europe.

MickyDolenz said:

nextedition said:

It's not only about charts

Yeah, Billboard radio hits is not always the way to determine popularity. People like Richard Clayderman, Yanni, & John Tesh sold a lot of albums without any Top 40 radio airplay. Kidz Bop albums were pretty good sellers. I think the music video with the most views on Youtube is Baby Shark and it wasn't a Top 10 hit. There's songs like Bad To The Bone by George Thorogood, Oh Yeah by Yello, & La Grange by ZZ Top that weren't big hits when originally released, but are more well known today than a lot of #1 hits. Even popular rock bands like Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, & Led Zeppelin had few radio hits but were big album sellers. In reverse, acts like The Supremes were more popular with singles than their albums.

That is very true. Here in UK for example Mike and the Mechanics "Over my shoulder" is always played on commercial radio, but only made no.12 at the time of release. Loads more examples like that....

RODSERLING said:

Sign ‘O’ The Times (1987) America US – 2,550,000 Europe – 2,180,000 UK – 540,000 France – 330,000 Germany – 315,000 Italy – 140,000 Spain – 45,000 Sweden – 60,000 Netherlands – 190,000 Switzerland – 70,000 Austria – 70,000 That big sales gap you were talking about cannot apply to SOTT. Prince toured in Europe with SOTT, but did more in the US, in album sales amd singles charts, without that tour. That's poor sales overall. An album like that should have sold like 10 millions.

I think the double album put some people off. Prince is or was a pop artist first and foremost and whilst Iam all for him releasing double albums as Iam sure we all are, his then typical fanbase probably less so. Plus the price point.

This factor defo hurt Jacksons "HIStory", but thats another subject LOL

[Edited 6/14/22 18:09pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

I think it's a couple of things, maybe. (Preemptively I'll say it could be literally anything, so anything anyone posts here is still purely conjecture.)

The U.S. consumer base is fickle as fuck. They want the big flashy stuff, and rarely goes deep to the more nuanced or off-center stuff. Purple Rain - popular. Lovesexy - too nuanced. The time had passed. He wasn't doing anything like he did in 1984, and that's where Americans tend to peg people: in their biggest moment.

MJ got a bit of a pass with Bad because it was the long-awaited follow up (five years later) to Thriller. People were ready for it. And coming out of the gates with a big video like "Bad," directed by another big name (like "Thriller" had Landis), then there was buzz around it. He tried it again with "Black or White," and while that video did get a huge amount of press, I don't much remember anyone talking about anything else on there. But, the videos for "Jam" and "Remember The Time" got a lot of play, partly because folks like Michael Jordan, Iman, Eddie Murphy, Heavy D., etc were in them. MJ didn't need other stars to make videos, but it didn't hurt either. MJ was about an event.

I also believe Europe has a different taste in music. Good examples are Kylie Minogue and Robbie Williams. Both talented people, great voices, etc. But their music just falls utterly flat in the U.S. I can name two RW songs that are decent, for me. "Rock DJ" (which heavily relies on a Barry Williams sample), and "Let Me Entertain You." That's it. Kylie - besides her 80's cover song hit, I can only really recall "Can't Get You Out Of My Head," which sounded a lot like "Amazing" by George Michael (which was written three and a half years after Minogues hit).

Minogue is' Europe's Madonna. She's huge everywhere, and while some of the gays love her here, she's not that big of a deal. I listened to Disco a few times, but it's fallen off my radar since then. So with so many hits, why isn't Minogue and Williams bigger here?

For me, their music sucks. Williams writes really weird songs. They're not artsy, avant-garde or catchy. They're just terrible. Brits eat that shit up like it's bottomless curry or fish n' chips. Doesn't mean Brits have bad taste. Quite the contrary. But it's cultural, to a large extent.

You have folks like George Michael or Elton John who are just as huge in the U.S. I believe that is because both of those men really tapped into American music. John had a great ear for song structure. Taupin provided those amazing stories in his lyrics. GM loved soul music. He covered a lot of Stevie Wonder music throughout his career. And not everyone just pulls out "As" or "Superstition" for shits and giggles. You gotta be able to hold your own with that. And GM knew his worth and talent as a singer, had the guts and fortitude to use it voice the way God intended. His purposely wrote songs based on Prince music, or Stevie Wonder vibes, or whatever. Robbie Williams can't sing "Living For The City" and not look like a total knob.

So, part of it is taste, part of it is fickleness, part is just society and what we grew up with, what we know. Americans will latch onto something, devour it for all its worth, then be done with it. (Although, that doesn't explain how fannypacks are still around but called Cross Body Bags.)

The 90s were a prime example of that with Euro-club music like La Bouche, Snap!, and others. America got into that for a hot minute in the 90s, then we moved on. Singer and a rapper - cool idea. What's next, bro?


Footnote: people dont want to be preached to, so when Prince got all spiritual, he lost a shit ton of followers. By the time MJ started speaking out on politics and being all angsty in his music, his image and reputation were so tainted, he never truly recovered from it. He never had a full redemption.

Yes, they tried hard with Robbie in USA. Here in UK he just hit that sweet spot of a pop artist who was a breath of fresh air after too much brit pop and dance music, alot of which USA didn't really get.

He had the swagger of Liam Gallagher but was not Britpop, so teen girls loved it I guess? I can't really explain his success over here either though as much as I try to. A few good songs though. "Old before I die" sounds Britpop though haha. Thats one of his good songs IMO.

I still can't fathom why Diana Ross "Chain reaction" was such a big hit in UK (with great video to boot) and did nothing twice in USA? Was it the tepid reception to her first single "Eatin' alive" that put radio off? Or no MTV play? WTH happened LOL. Its still played all the time in UK.

I swear Clive Davis blocked the US release of Jennifer Rush's "Power of love", which again was huge in Europe and UK but was given to his own artist Air Supply so not to perhaps spoil their own cover version? Celine did a tepid cover in the 90's so it became a hit in USA eventually...

thesexofit said:

I still can't fathom why Diana Ross "Chain reaction" was such a big hit in UK (with great video to boot) and did nothing twice in USA? Was it the tepid reception to her first single "Eatin' alive" that put radio off? Or no MTV play? WTH happened LOL. Its still played all the time in UK.

I don't think most of Diana's solo records were all that big in the USA and neither were her movies except Lady Sings The Blues. She had some hit singles here and there. But Diana didn't get the consistent radio airplay for each of her singles like later singers such as Madonna, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Gloria Estefan, & Mariah Carey got. Her most successful period was around Love Hangover up to Endless Love. Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, & Natalie Cole took Diana's spot in the 1980s with comeback records.

thesexofit said:

Yes, they tried hard with Robbie in USA. Here in UK he just hit that sweet spot of a pop artist who was a breath of fresh air after too much brit pop and dance music, alot of which USA didn't really get.

He had the swagger of Liam Gallagher but was not Britpop, so teen girls loved it I guess? I can't really explain his success over here either though as much as I try to. A few good songs though. "Old before I die" sounds Britpop though haha. Thats one of his good songs IMO.

And you know what else, that I forgot to mention - Robbie also came from Take That. So he was sort of the Justin Timberlake of the group. The one with a bit more swagger, a lot of girls favorite, went solo and that popularity just carried him for a while, as well as his music.

It's odd when folks like Robbie Williams never hits here, yet Ed Sheeran or George Michael - two entirely different types of artists - hit big in the U.S. I think it's a music sensibility. They, along with Elton and others, knew how to tap that American-friendly sound. Whatever it is, whatever element it is - they did it. Robbie didn't seem to much care after a while. He had plenty of folks filling stadiums in the UK and Europe. Same with Minogue.

To add to this, a rather interesting example is Tina Turner.

American artist, has quite the backstory and reboot of a career that sustained itself for years. But she only recorded music as a soloist, really, from 1984-1999. TwentyFourSeven was her last recorded record. She did another tour - because Sophia Lauren told her to get back out there before it was too late. But still - she gave up recording music.

She told Larry King in 1998 or so about how Europe had been so great for her. He said, "But you're big here."

She said, "I'm bigger over there. In Europe, I'm as big as Madonna." And she wasn't lying. It's why a lot of her live concerts were always taped overseas.

One Last Time (The TwentyFourSeven Tour) was at Wembley.

Wildest Dreams was in Amsterdam - a place she had a lot of fondness for.

Tina Live was recorded in Netherlands.

Foreign Affair Tour was filmed in Barcelona. (She labeled that the Farewell Tour because she wanted to move to acting and thought she was done with music by 1990.)

Private Dancer Tour was filmed at NEC in Birmingham. Break Every Rule Tour was filmed in Rio.

So it's an interest visual for her to have the success she did in the U.S., even a re-resurgence with What's Love Got To Do With It book and film. But still found even great appreciate and success overseas. And now she's no longer a US citizen.

Maybe the lesson here is she just broke all the rules with sales and popularity despite the country. And that maybe your hometown isn't always your sweet spot or your bliss. But good on her. She'll never not be amazing.

thesexofit said:

RODSERLING said:

Did SOTT really cost more at the time of release than a single album

Double albums always cost more than a single album. Same for a triple like George Harrison's All Things Must Pass. In the mid-1980s Bruce Springsteen released a live album that had 5 records in it.

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

TrivialPursuit said:

RODSERLING said:

Tina Turner certainly wasn't as big as Madonna in Europe, at least not in France!

Bless your heart.

kitbradley said:

I could hardly make out a word Diana says during the entire song.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with it. 99 Luftballons & Rock Me Amedeus were in German & La Bamba was in Spanish and they were all big hits in the US. More recently, do many people know what is being said in The Whisper Song by Ying Yang Twins or Twista's speed rapping?

kitbradley said:

MickyDolenz said:

I don't think most of Diana's solo records were all that big in the USA and neither were her movies except Lady Sings The Blues. She had some hit singles here and there. But Diana didn't get the consistent radio airplay for each of her singles like later singers such as Madonna, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, Gloria Estefan, & Mariah Carey got. Her most successful period was around Love Hangover up to Endless Love. Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, & Natalie Cole took Diana's spot in the 1980s with comeback records.

The "Swept Away" album was certified Gold in the U.S. "Eaten Alive" tanked. Many people blamed Mary Wilson's book for the sudden drop in Ross' sales. While I think Wilson's book definately played a part, unlike the previous album, there were no strong singles on "Eaten Alive". RCA made the mistake of releasing the title track with Michael Jackson as the lead single. It was a messy production. I could hardly make out a word Diana says during the entire song. I think that also contributed to the lack of interest in further singles in the U.S. "Chain Reaction" is a good song. But at the time, the American audience may have considered it too throwback.

Diana was on a roll in the early 80s.Her 1980 Diana album,produced by Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards,was her biggest-selling album ever.The singles "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" were all over the radio.Then,the very next year,she had that massive hit single with Lionel Richie "Endless Love".This was followed by her Why Do Fools Fall In Love album,which also did very well.The title track remake was a big hit.The next year,she had that "Muscles" hit single (written by Michael Jackson).As you pointed out,the Swept Away album in 1984 was also a big album for her.The hit single "Missing You" is probably the best of the Marvin Gaye tribute songs that came out after his death.So,we can say that the first half of the 80s was a successful period for her.It was later in the decade when she had trouble finding great material and she had a couple of poor-selling albums.

.

[Edited 6/15/22 23:37pm]