SoulAlive said:

RODSERLING said:

it was a huge mistake to not release Liberian Girl, it would have made the top ten in the US, and a great publicity for Bad. Give In To Me would have been huge for sure.

how can you possibly know this?

Pssst, he doesn't.

RODSERLING said:

I never said these albums had something to do with Bad musically. Despite Faith is really close ( same kind of music, solo artist, same kind of lead vocals, same background vocals, etc.), and U2 has that pop/rock vibe very common to the MJ's of the 90's. I never said neither the same people bought singles and albums. MJ always sold a lot of albums, triggered by singles that were million sellers worldwide. Selling singles never prevented him to sell his albums. I think single-wise, it was a huge mistake to not release Liberian Girl, it would have made the top ten in the US, and a great publicity for Bad. Just like Dangerous missed his Thriller in the US 😞: Give In To Me would have been huge for sure. [Edited 3/25/22 20:53pm]

Well maybe Mike was overexposed in the USA with Thriller and a lot of people were tired of him. Not only were there 7 singles. There were other songs that were played on the radio at the same time period the Thriller album was still selling (Somebody's Watching Me, Farewell My Summer Love, Say Say Say, Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin', Don't Stand Another Chance, Eaten Alive, Centipede, State Of Shock, Torture, etc). R&B radio played Lady In My Life, Baby Be Mine, Somewhere In The Dark, & Can't Get Outta The Rain. Motown reissued most of the Jackson 5 albums after Thriller became a success, There's also the ET Storybook album and We Are The World. He had a lot of magazine coverage and stuff like dolls, Thriller/Beat It jackets, posters, baseball cards, several quicky biography books, glitter gloves, picture discs, a red vinyl singles set, and other merchandise. Then there was the Victory album and tour. The tour got some bad press with people being forced to buy 4 tickets and Don King being involved, one ticket was already more expensive than the average concert of the period. Then During the Bad period, Stevie Wonder put out Get It as a single. Get It didn't get much pop airplay, but it was a Top 10 hit on the R&B chart. R&B radio did play Liberian Girl and the music video was on MTV, VH-1, & BET. This was also the time period Janet broke out. There's also the case that Triumph did not sell as well as Off The Wall and Victory did not sell as well as Thriller. Sojust because Michael Jackson is on a record did not mean it would automatically sell the same. It didn't help The Jacksons albums get the same amount of crossover. Yet Phil Collins was just as successful solo and with Genesis. Even Mike Rutherford from Genesis had some success with Mike + The Mechanics.

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

RODSERLING said:

By the way... What's interesting, is that you say Liberian Girl was played on rnb radios. Still, IIRC it never charted on rnb charts, rnb airplay, adult airplay, etc

Because at the time, only a song that was released as a physical single and its B-side could chart. Isn't She Lovely by Stevie Wonder never charted because it was never a single, even though it got a lot of radio airplay. Most Christmas songs did not chart either because they were not usually released as a single, but they got airplay every November thru December. If people wanted the songs they had to buy the acts Chrismas album, which could chart like the New Kids On The Block one. A lot of USA radio stations back then would play album tracks and also the longer album versions of singles & long remixes. Today Billboard changed its old rule for streaming. Very few songs are released as physical singles today, so that old criteria couldn't work anyhow. That's how Drake, Lil Wayne, & Nicki Minaj have more Hot 100 hits than anyone else. Every song on an album can chart now at the same time, single or not. Before streaming, Elvis Presley & James Brown held the record for decades. It was Aretha Franklin for female artists. Same as when Soundscan came in during the 1990s, it became common for albums to debut at #1, when only 6 albums had done it during the entire time the record business existed. Well LP albums were only invented around 1950. Before that everything was 78s which is a single.

With The Jacksons, it wasn't that their records had less appeal. It was that they were considered a Black group in the USA, so were marketed primarily to R&B radio stations, which is mainly a Black audience. Black artists usually had to crossover to mainstream (aka the white audience) Top 40 pop radio, and only a small percentage were allowed to do that. Lionel Richie, Billy Ocean, Kool & The Gang, and Whitney Houston got crossover but Teddy Pendergrass, Maze, and even Teena Marie (who's white) got little if any mainstream promotion. Rick James is pretty much known to the mainstream audience for Superfreak, but had a lot of R&B hits. Rick complained he couldn't get on MTV, which didn't play many Black artists at the beginning. CBS Records threatened to take off their other acts like Bruce Springsteen & Journey if they would not play any Michael Jackson videos. Like I mentioned radio in the USA was segregated. There's a reason Elvis Presley sold more than Little Richard/Chuck Berry. and Led Zeppelin/Rolling Stones sold more than the Black blues artists they copied. People are more likely to buy records of their own race over another. Like Selena & Vicnente Fernandez are huge with Latino audiences.

Because of the length of time between releases, also MJ was starting to get weird press it even started while thriller was out but it continued. Also when you have a huge mega seller and you NEVER had that kind of success you are going to loss the casual fan, you just are. He still was a mega star, but Thriller was the peak and all surrounding it was massive, the videos were legendary, and it was a NEW thing "video" when Michael jumped into it, it was NOT new when Bad came out, MTV by then had so much more going on, everyone was now doing an epic video. It is rare you have a THRILLER or a Purple Rain or FAITH or Born in the USA, and then actually outsell it. I mean almost everything Prince put out after Purple Rain, added together (some 30 albums) didnt outsell PR added together, the same can be said of George Michael and Bruce. So why the shock with MJ, it literally was the biggest seller ever, there was no way no chance that BAD would outsell it, no chance

SolaceAHA said:

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

“Tell Me I’m Not Dreamin” is a great song.I like it better than anything on ‘Victory’.It got alot of airplay on our local R&B station.Jermaine’s label (Arista) wanted to release it as a single but The Jackson’s label (Epic) said “no way”.They didn’t want it to compete with the ‘Victory’ singles.It’s a shame when a great song gets caught up in record company politics

SoulAlive said:

“Tell Me I’m Not Dreamin” is a great song.I like it better than anything on ‘Victory’. It got alot of airplay on our local R&B station. Jermaine’s label (Arista) wanted to release it as a single but The Jackson’s label (Epic) said “no way”. They didn’t want it to compete with the ‘Victory’ singles. It’s a shame when a great song gets caught up in record company politics

Jermaine Jackson was his Thriller. The albums are so similar, one wonders why there wasn't a rift between the brothers. But to his credit, Jermaine struck when the first had arguably been the hottest for him. The Jacksons rode Thriller's success with Victory and the subsequent tour. Jermaine released the album in the spring of 1984, at a sweet spot when Thriller hype was dying down - a tad - and before Purple Rain (which no one knew was coming) had been unleashed like a Kracken.

Side A

Dynamite - Wanna Be Startin' Something': The percussive-bass-heavy intro songs to the album.

Sweetest Sweetest - Baby Be Mine: a cute little bop about a girl

Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin' - The Girl is Mine: 3rd track duet

Escape From the Planet of the Ant Men - Thriller: Need I say more? It even includes a spoken spooky rap a la Vincent Price, and an evil laugh.

Side B (a bit different configuration for the 2nd and 3rd tracks)

Come To Me - Beat It: no real correlation here, although both have a dense-nature to them

Do What You Do - Human Nature: The mid-second side ballad

Take Good Care of My Heart - Billie Jean: The driving pop song, a duet on Jermaine's side

Some Things are Private - P.Y.T: a funk-pop workout

Oh Mother - The Lady In My Life: Both sparse odes to important women

Jermaine's album is awesome, and I love the "Dynamite" video.

TrivialPursuit said:

SoulAlive said:

“Tell Me I’m Not Dreamin” is a great song.I like it better than anything on ‘Victory’. It got alot of airplay on our local R&B station. Jermaine’s label (Arista) wanted to release it as a single but The Jackson’s label (Epic) said “no way”. They didn’t want it to compete with the ‘Victory’ singles. It’s a shame when a great song gets caught up in record company politics

Jermaine Jackson was his Thriller. The albums are so similar, one wonders why there wasn't a rift between the brothers. But to his credit, Jermaine struck when the first had arguably been the hottest for him. The Jacksons rode Thriller's success with Victory and the subsequent tour. Jermaine released the album in the spring of 1984, at a sweet spot when Thriller hype was dying down - a tad - and before Purple Rain (which no one knew was coming) had been unleashed like a Kracken.

Side A

Dynamite - Wanna Be Startin' Something': The percussive-bass-heavy intro songs to the album.

Sweetest Sweetest - Baby Be Mine: a cute little bop about a girl

Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin' - The Girl is Mine: 3rd track duet

Escape From the Planet of the Ant Men - Thriller: Need I say more? It even includes a spoken spooky rap a la Vincent Price, and an evil laugh.

Side B (a bit different configuration for the 2nd and 3rd tracks)

Come To Me - Beat It: no real correlation here, although both have a dense-nature to them

Do What You Do - Human Nature: The mid-second side ballad

Take Good Care of My Heart - Billie Jean: The driving pop song, a duet on Jermaine's side

Some Things are Private - P.Y.T: a funk-pop workout

Oh Mother - The Lady In My Life: Both sparse odes to important women

Jermaine's album is awesome, and I love the "Dynamite" video.

I love this discussion and I love Jermaine's whole Arista output, but you are reaching a little here

I love Jermaines 1984 album too. He transformed "Dynamite" from the demo I have heard. He didn't produce much after this album unfortunately, at least not on his own.

thesexofit said:

I love this discussion and I love Jermaine's whole Arista output, but you are reaching a little here

I love Jermaines 1984 album too. He transformed "Dynamite" from the demo I have heard. He didn't produce much after this album unfortunately, at least not on his own.

Well, I never mentioned production. But I do believe he used the Thriller blue print to sequence that record. Things like "Thriller" and "Escape..." are incredibly alike. So are "The Lady in my Life" and "Oh Mother." The duet on side one. NOt unusual. Prince did the same with on ATWIAD using Purple Rain template.

Anyhoo - I don't always think Jermaine's output was great, but this album was really good, and deserved more attention. If it had been released just a year or two later, it'd have sounded dated and out of touch. So he had to release it when he did. And probably wanted to anyway.

TrivialPursuit said:

thesexofit said:

I love this discussion and I love Jermaine's whole Arista output, but you are reaching a little here

I love Jermaines 1984 album too. He transformed "Dynamite" from the demo I have heard. He didn't produce much after this album unfortunately, at least not on his own.

Well, I never mentioned production. But I do believe he used the Thriller blue print to sequence that record. Things like "Thriller" and "Escape..." are incredibly alike. So are "The Lady in my Life" and "Oh Mother." The duet on side one. NOt unusual. Prince did the same with on ATWIAD using Purple Rain template.

Anyhoo - I don't always think Jermaine's output was great, but this album was really good, and deserved more attention. If it had been released just a year or two later, it'd have sounded dated and out of touch. So he had to releyase it when he did. And probably wanted to anyway.

As I said, I love all of Jermaines Arista stuff. His 1986 followup was even more commercial, but no silly "Escape" like track on it thank God. I agree that "Escape" track was a (terrible imo) "Thriller" ripoff and yeah, the album was definately going after the "Thriller" template in places.

Commodores "Animal instinct", Diana Ross "Eaten alive", Melissa Manchester "Night Creatures". A few monster themed tracks popped up thanks to "Thriller" haha.

TrivialPursuit said:

thesexofit said:

I love this discussion and I love Jermaine's whole Arista output, but you are reaching a little here

I love Jermaines 1984 album too. He transformed "Dynamite" from the demo I have heard. He didn't produce much after this album unfortunately, at least not on his own.

Well, I never mentioned production. But I do believe he used the Thriller blue print to sequence that record. Things like "Thriller" and "Escape..." are incredibly alike. So are "The Lady in my Life" and "Oh Mother." The duet on side one. NOt unusual. Prince did the same with on ATWIAD using Purple Rain template.

Anyhoo - I don't always think Jermaine's output was great, but this album was really good, and deserved more attention. If it had been released just a year or two later, it'd have sounded dated and out of touch. So he had to release it when he did. And probably wanted to anyway.

Tbh, you didn't. I just rarely get to discuss Jermaine on here anymore. My bad.

All the above answers were factors to an extent, plus the glaring failure of no stadium tour in America and no cinema release for "Moonwalker". I do think a few of his no.1's from "Bad" are abit suspicious LOL. Frank trying to make up for the above 2 failings LOL?

Oh and yes "Bad" did initially outsell "Thriller" in UK. Its still hovering 9th-10th all time seller in UK, despite poor single showings compared to America.

Bytheway, "Thriller" in USA is mind boggling sales wise. Once in a lifetime as discussed. The fact he never officially toured at all for "Thriller" makes it more incredible

thesexofit said:

thesexofit said:

By the way, "Thriller" in USA is mind boggling sales wise. Once in a lifetime as discussed. The fact he never officially toured at all for "Thriller" makes it more incredible

I don't get the idea that touring makes an album sell more. Relatively few people go to concerts compared to the ones who hear songs played on the radio or see an act on TV shows like Solid Gold, Dance Fever, Soul Train, or MTV. The big acts mostly only go to large major cities. Large cities are a small percentage of the USA. There's thousands of small towns that they never go to. They're not gong to perform in some juke joint or hole in the wall in a rural area. Small towns do have radio & TV reception. Also buying a record back then was cheaper than going to a concert. There's also the case that a lot of acts only perform their hits, especially today. People don't usually go to see veteran acts to hear their new material. If touring helped that much to sell records, then there wouldn't be many "one hit wonder" acts.

With the Thriller sales in the USA, Eagles Greatest Hits Vol 1 passed it up 2 or 3 times. The albums keep leap froggin' each other. I think Eagles are currently ahead.

thesexofit said:

Tbh, you didn't. I just rarely get to discuss Jermaine on here anymore. My bad.

To your original statement, MJ didn't solely produce Thriller either. So that phenomenon wasn't MJ alone. I guess I never looked at who produced Jermaine's album.

thesexofit said:

"Thriller" in USA is mind boggling sales wise. Once in a lifetime as discussed. The fact he never officially toured at all for "Thriller" makes it more incredible

indeed.Can you imagine what a "Thriller World Tour 1983" would have been like?

MickyDolenz said:

RODSERLING said:

You're wrong, I read 20 years ago that labels estimate that a tour usually bring 40% of the sales of an album.

Is that so? There's no tour for Saturday Night Fever, Footloose, The Sound Of Music, and other popular soundtracks. The Dirty Dancing soundtracks were mostly oldies of acts that in some cases did not exist anymore. How do The Beatles, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Robert Johnson, & Elvis Presley continue to sell? They can't tour. The Beatles sold more records after they broke up than when they were an active group. When they were touring, the Fab 4 mostly sang the same stuff from the early days since no one could hear them because of all of the screaming girls and the technology of the era. How did 1990s dance music groups like Black Box sell records? The girl in the videos and the album covers didn't sing on the records, it was Martha Wash. Martha didn't perform with them. Milli Vanilli sold big until they went on tour. The concerts is when people found out Rob & Fab weren't singing, because the tapes would sometimes skip. Their Grammy was taken away form them. Donny & Marie Osmond was touring up until a few years ago, but I don't see their albums racing up the charts.

People who go to a concert are usually already fans of the group, unless they're going to see a bar band or something. It's the same with tribute bands/singers. Do Elvis Presley impersonators make people in the audience want to buy Elvis albums? More than likely, the people going to see a tribute band already owns the albums. Like with The Musical Box, the folks who go to see them like Peter Gabriel era Genesis. Neither the real Genesis nor Peter Gabriel perform those songs. Steve Hackett does though. So The Musical Box and Steve Hackett is the only way to see that material live in concert.

[Edited 3/27/22 13:14pm]

MickyDolenz said:

RODSERLING said:

This is not true for every album, but of course the more you tour for an album, the more you aell it.

Alvin & The Chipmunks have been selling records since the 1950s and they're a cartoon. They've also had popular live action movies in recent years. The Archies & Max Headroom had hit singles and they don't really exist either to perform concerts. Do people usually tour for Christmas albums? Maybe Mannheim Steamroller does. I don't think the Jackson 5 toured for their Christmas album. They probably couldn't anyway since the were Jehovah's Witnesses when it came out. A tour itself is not guaranteed to be a success. There's been a lot of tours and/or concerts that flopped or didn't make any money because of extravagant production. How can a unsuccessful tour help an album sell? Does the Whitney Houston hologram tour help her music sale?

SoulAlive said:

thesexofit said:

"Thriller" in USA is mind boggling sales wise. Once in a lifetime as discussed. The fact he never officially toured at all for "Thriller" makes it more incredible

indeed.Can you imagine what a "Thriller World Tour 1983" would have been like?

Uhm. Kinda like the Victory tour??

MickyDolenz said:

RODSERLING said:

You're wrong, I read 20 years ago that labels estimate that a tour usually bring 40% of the sales of an album.

Is that so? There's no tour for Saturday Night Fever, Footloose, The Sound Of Music, and other popular soundtracks. The Dirty Dancing soundtracks were mostly oldies of acts that in some cases did not exist anymore. How do The Beatles, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix, Robert Johnson, & Elvis Presley continue to sell? They can't tour. The Beatles sold more records after they broke up than when they were an active group. When they were touring, the Fab 4 mostly sang the same stuff from the early days since no one could hear them because of all of the screaming girls and the technology of the era. How did 1990s dance music groups like Black Box sell records? The girl in the videos and the album covers didn't sing on the records, it was Martha Wash. Martha didn't perform with them. Milli Vanilli sold big until they went on tour. The concerts is when people found out Rob & Fab weren't singing, because the tapes would sometimes skip. Their Grammy was taken away form them. Donny & Marie Osmond was touring up until a few years ago, but I don't see their albums racing up the charts.

People who go to a concert are usually already fans of the group, unless they're going to see a bar band or something. It's the same with tribute bands/singers. Do Elvis Presley impersonators make people in the audience want to buy Elvis albums? More than likely, the people going to see a tribute band already owns the albums. Like with The Musical Box, the folks who go to see them like Peter Gabriel era Genesis. Neither the real Genesis nor Peter Gabriel perform those songs. Steve Hackett does though. So The Musical Box and Steve Hackett is the only way to see that material live in concert.

[Edited 3/27/22 13:14pm]

That doesn't change the fact that back then a tour promoted an album. That's why record companies usually where involved when one of their artists went on tour. Nowadays an album promotes a tour and the money is made touring.

PatrickS77 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

thesexofit said:

Tbh, you didn't. I just rarely get to discuss Jermaine on here anymore. My bad.

To your original statement, MJ didn't solely produce Thriller either. So that phenomenon wasn't MJ alone. I guess I never looked at who produced Jermaine's album.

Jermaine produced some of that album alone (including "Dynamite"). Like Mike, Jermaine was a good producer. I will stop there before I derail the thread again haha

SoulAlive said:

PatrickS77 said:

Uhm. Kinda like the Victory tour??

No,it would have been bigger and better than the Victory tour.A solo MJ tour in 1983,at the height of Thrillermania??

Victory tour was a strange one. Yes, it is basically a Michael solo tour as no new tracks from "Victory" were played, but I don't count it as a "Thriller" tour, but I can see Patrick's point.