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Printablealphastreet said: I think cry is good lol It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world" | |
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Phase3 said: alphastreet said: I think cry is good lol
It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world" Oh, well. Then you got no taste. Both great songs. [Edited 4/19/21 3:28am] | |
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Cry is a good song and would've been a hit if MJ had been in the video and Sony had promoted it. Shame. [Edited 4/19/21 9:07am] | |
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It's funny how Michael being the perfectionist he is decided to release the Fall Again demo. Knowing what we know about his tendency to polish songs, it's kind of strange. I loved this song from the first listen and at first I hoped there would be finished version, but now I'm not so sure. This version conveys a certain vibe that I don't think would have been present if he had completed it. | |
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PatrickS77 said: Phase3 said: It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world" Oh, well. Then you got no taste. Both great songs. [Edited 4/19/21 3:28am] Sorry just never cared for much of MJ's songs like those. Cry,heal the world,we are the world don't do anything for me and are pretty much the only songs I dislike in MJ's catalogue | |
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wilmer said: It's funny how Michael being the perfectionist he is decided to release the Fall Again demo. Knowing what we know about his tendency to polish songs, it's kind of strange. I loved this song from the first listen and at first I hoped there would be finished version, but now I'm not so sure. This version conveys a certain vibe that I don't think would have been present if he had completed it. I think you’re right, the version released was so raw | |
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It was the unfortunate timing of being released right around 9/11. | |
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Yes. That is fine. But that doesn't make them "bullshit" or crap songs. | |
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Derek1984 said:
It was the unfortunate timing of being released right around 9/11. They did a Michael Jackson themed show where the contestants all sung his songs. This was in 2009 too when he was heavily rumored to be making music and a comeback. I can’t remember if the This Is It announcements had been made. But it was a bummer he didn’t appear. They had Stevie Wonder week too, where he actually was on the show with the contestants mentoring them. He performed as well. Prince even performed on the show. Such a shame. | |
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No doubt the set has a lot of gems, but I think it could have been refined a bit more. There are a few strange inclusions (like remixes) and there was an opportunity to include some tracks that had leaked back in the day. Maybe something like this?
Disc 2 - Thriller/ Bad (71:18)
Disc 3 - Dangerous (73:15)
Disc 4 - HIStory/ Blood On The Dance Floor (73:03)
Disc 5 - Invincible (71:22)
Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain. |
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bluegangsta said: No doubt the set has a lot of gems, but I think it could have been refined a bit more. There are a few strange inclusions (like remixes) and there was an opportunity to include some tracks that had leaked back in the day. Maybe something like this?
Disc 2 - Thriller/ Bad (71:18)
Disc 3 - Dangerous (73:15)
Disc 4 - HIStory/ Blood On The Dance Floor (73:03)
Disc 5 - Invincible (71:22)
There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly? | |
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It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have. Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain. |
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bluegangsta said:
It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have. Oh wow,you had my hopes up for a minute there.I thought there was a version that didn't have a fade away ending | |
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Phase3 said: bluegangsta said:
It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have. Oh wow,you had my hopes up for a minute there.I thought there was a version that didn't have a fade away ending Oh wow I never noticed that! Will have to pull it out and re listen one of these days, unless it’s on YouTube | |
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alphastreet said: RODSERLING said: Yes. Had it been released in december of 2001 with a good music video ( with MJ in it!), would have been a huge seller. What a waste. This marketing mistake killed Invincible, MJ's carreer, and I m sure his own life. Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too [Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm] A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version. Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled. MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him. Such a waste. If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure. [Edited 4/21/21 4:59am] |
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Phase3 said: alphastreet said: Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too [Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm] I agree there.Also,I have a feeling that the album came out around a wrong time.It was released in October 2001,america was still recovering from 9/11 The album is good but not as strong as MJ's other albums.I can't believe they were sitting on songs like chicago,place with no name,way u love me,another day,Hollywood tonight. Those tracks are stronger than most of the invincible album The album came 7 weeks after 9/11. 9/11 never killed album sales, that's a myth invented by some MJ fams to explain Invincible failure. In fact, Jay Z' the Blueprint had an opening week of 427.000 the week after the attacks, and the week before Invincible, DMX was #1 with 440.000 copies. Invincible sold " Only" 366.000. The week after Inv, Britney sold 745.000 copies. So 9/11 is just an excuse for the failure of Invincible. But where it influenced Invincible promotion, is that someone at Sony thought it was a good idea to release CRY as the second single, to capitalize on the 9/11. It could have been a great idea, Cry wasn't a bad song in itself, the lyrics were interesting, everything R Kelly did at the time was platinum, etc. But the verses are way too long, boring, the chorus is an ersatz of Man In The Mirror, and for a humanitarian song, not really sincere since it s not written by MJ at all. This is a song that were fit for a duet with a big name, not a solo record. When Sony US saw the song didn't take off in airplay, they decided to go with BTFLS instead. But, oops, the video was already shot for a million dollars. And oops again, MJ decided at the last minute to not appear in it, which made Mottolo furious. So they decided to go along with it in Europe, after all, MJ had great success usually there with songs not appealing for the US market. To be sure it would be profitable, for the 1st time ever Sony put a real b-side, Shout. But despite huge airplay ( it was #6 in Europe), the single was his worst seller ever. It killed Invincible promotion, it would have sold better if they had stopped with YRMW and released nothing more. But I think with MJ in the video, and with some appearances on TV, it could have done better, especially in France it could have been top ten. |
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On Butterflies - there's also a very rare promo edit that runs for a couple of seconds longer and less compressed than the album mastering. Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain. |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too [Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm] A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version. Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled. MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him. Such a waste. If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure. [Edited 4/21/21 4:59am] I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible | |
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alphastreet said: RODSERLING said: A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version. Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled. MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him. Such a waste. If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure. [Edited 4/21/21 4:59am] I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible For MJ at the time, it was multi-millions dollars video or nothing. Surely to hise his ill Bottoxed-face, like in the video for YRMW, where there s a digitized shadow over his face all along. We can't even see his hair. At the time, music videos were really cheap, basically Alicia Keys walking on the streets or playing piano, Usher dancing alone in a basement... I m sure MJ could have been very good in a cheap music video, focusing on the dance moves, on Heartbreaker for instance. And the ultra expensive Neverland would have been a great location for a cheap video for Speechless. What positive buzz it would have been, instead of Living with MJ. There was so much to do to promote the album, what a waste of talent and opportunities. |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible For MJ at the time, it was multi-millions dollars video or nothing. Surely to hise his ill Bottoxed-face, like in the video for YRMW, where there s a digitized shadow over his face all along. We can't even see his hair. At the time, music videos were really cheap, basically Alicia Keys walking on the streets or playing piano, Usher dancing alone in a basement... I m sure MJ could have been very good in a cheap music video, focusing on the dance moves, on Heartbreaker for instance. And the ultra expensive Neverland would have been a great location for a cheap video for Speechless. What positive buzz it would have been, instead of Living with MJ. There was so much to do to promote the album, what a waste of talent and opportunities. Total waste. I feel like he could have sung something at the fan parties later too in accapella, just to spoil us a little | |
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That whole era wasn't right for Michael Jackson, the popstar. I mean, he had a 4 and 3 year old kid (or 5 and 4) and in early 2002 he got another one and was a single father. Clearly being a pop star wasn't his focus. | |
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What is everyone heres favorite posthumous MJ album? I will have to say "Xscape".I was gonna say BAD 25 but I think it wasn't as good as it should have been. | |
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Phase3 said:
There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly? The ad-libs on the fade-our are killer. There is a remix by SWG on YouTube and I don’t know if they just mixed it really well or they had the full version, but it’s even better than the one on TUC. As for Invinvible, MJ was 43, suffered bad press for some time and had been around 30 years. To be ranking up there with Britney Spears and Jay-Z isn’t bad at all. What other artist of his longevity had the same success? Especially since he never toured the states again, and virtually never appeared on talk shows and such to promote his stuff? I don’t know if the rumors of him wanting to do a video for Unbreaksble or not were true, but I think that could have helped. Invincible is only a “failure” in the sense of comparing it to his past albums, which is asinine. It’s a bit lopsided, but oddly enough, also one of his more balanced albums. Remember when Napster and CD burning was huge, and people would sell mixtapes on the street, in G-shops, etc? Invincible material was all over them. Is it his best album? No. Worst? Maybe, but he only really has six adult albums anyways, so that’s not saying much. At worst, one review I read stated it best: Around 2000, everyone was trying to be the next Michael Jackson, and with Invincible, Michael Jackson was trying to sound like everyone else. [Edited 4/22/21 21:20pm] | |
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If mj sounded like anyone else, it was cause the album took way too long to make | |
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Considering the lack of video, tv performances, etc. Invincible wasn't a commercial failure in the US, I agree. It was successful in France too. But in the rest of the World, it was a huge commercial faimure after the first week of sales. In Germany, it stayed only one month in the top 50, in Poland it didn't make the top ten and stayed only 3 or 4 weeks in the top 50, in UKUK 5 weeks in the top 40... It was a huge failure from the start! The UK used to be a big market for MJ. In 1995/1997 he ranked 8 singles consecutively in the top 5. Cry only did #25, for a second single that was such a letdown. And that s the only reason why there was no third single released in Europe. If Cry was a top 10 in France, UK, Germany, Holland, etc. There would have been a 3rd single released in airplay and physical, let's say for Unbreakable, music video shot or not. There was a video planned for Unbreak when it was supposed to be the lead single MJ wanted it big, like 20 minutes with a reported 6 millions $ budget. But he wasn't satisfied with the concepts Sony proposed him, and frankly MJ didn't have one neither. So when it was obvious it would take months amd the album should be pushed back to 2002, Mottola forced him to release YRMW instead with a more "modest" 4 millions $ budget. MJ thought again about the project, hired and fired two directors, and in march of 2002, Mottola told him if he wanted his video, he should have to pay himself for it, since the album was dead in the charts everywhere in the world. As of April 2002, the truth is that MJ still didn't have one clear concept for Unbreakable. |
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There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs.
The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade. [Edited 4/23/21 5:06am] | |
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wilmer said: There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs. The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade. [Edited 4/23/21 5:06am] I have been listening to Invincible everyday for the last week. That album has stayed constant for me, especially YRMW, Butterflies, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. | |
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I get excited when putting on other mj albums than invincible, but for invincible though I like it, I have to be in the mood for it | |
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wilmer said: There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs. The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade. [Edited 4/23/21 5:06am] No love for "Threatened"? I believe MJ favored that one because it was apart of the "This is it" set list | |
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Phase3 said: wilmer said: There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs. The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade. [Edited 4/23/21 5:06am] No love for "Threatened"? I believe MJ favored that one because it was apart of the "This is it" set list Oversight on my part. I like that one. | |
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