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Reply #30 posted 04/18/21 8:40pm

Phase3

alphastreet said:

I think cry is good lol

It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world"
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Reply #31 posted 04/19/21 3:28am

PatrickS77

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Phase3 said:

alphastreet said:

I think cry is good lol

It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world"


Oh, well. Then you got no taste. Both great songs.
[Edited 4/19/21 3:28am]
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Reply #32 posted 04/19/21 9:07am

MattyJam

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Cry is a good song and would've been a hit if MJ had been in the video and Sony had promoted it. Shame.

[Edited 4/19/21 9:07am]

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Reply #33 posted 04/19/21 12:11pm

wilmer

It's funny how Michael being the perfectionist he is decided to release the Fall Again demo. Knowing what we know about his tendency to polish songs, it's kind of strange. I loved this song from the first listen and at first I hoped there would be finished version, but now I'm not so sure. This version conveys a certain vibe that I don't think would have been present if he had completed it.
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Reply #34 posted 04/19/21 12:38pm

Phase3

PatrickS77 said:

Phase3 said:


It is in the same league as other bullshit songs like "heal the world"


Oh, well. Then you got no taste. Both great songs.
[Edited 4/19/21 3:28am]

Sorry just never cared for much of MJ's songs like those.
Cry,heal the world,we are the world don't do anything for me and are pretty much the only songs I dislike in MJ's catalogue
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Reply #35 posted 04/19/21 1:31pm

alphastreet

wilmer said:

It's funny how Michael being the perfectionist he is decided to release the Fall Again demo. Knowing what we know about his tendency to polish songs, it's kind of strange. I loved this song from the first listen and at first I hoped there would be finished version, but now I'm not so sure. This version conveys a certain vibe that I don't think would have been present if he had completed it.


I think you’re right, the version released was so raw
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Reply #36 posted 04/19/21 5:46pm

Derek1984

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Phase3 said:

I know this is a well known song but I believe "You rock my world" has aged very well and it sounds better than ever to my ears Wonder why that wasn't more of a hit for him? Being that this is a MJ thread,I have a question Why didn't MJ ever appear on American idol? I mean I know the show sucked and still does,but still it wouldbe been fun if he did.Was he ever rumored to appear on the show? After all,just ahout every prince fan I knew thought prince would never be on American idol but to everyone's surprise he did

It was the unfortunate timing of being released right around 9/11.

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Reply #37 posted 04/19/21 6:18pm

PatrickS77

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Phase3 said:

PatrickS77 said:
Oh, well. Then you got no taste. Both great songs. [Edited 4/19/21 3:28am]
Sorry just never cared for much of MJ's songs like those. Cry,heal the world,we are the world don't do anything for me and are pretty much the only songs I dislike in MJ's catalogue

Yes. That is fine. But that doesn't make them "bullshit" or crap songs.

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Reply #38 posted 04/20/21 7:04am

Superstition

avatar

Derek1984 said:



Phase3 said:


I know this is a well known song but I believe "You rock my world" has aged very well and it sounds better than ever to my ears Wonder why that wasn't more of a hit for him? Being that this is a MJ thread,I have a question Why didn't MJ ever appear on American idol? I mean I know the show sucked and still does,but still it wouldbe been fun if he did.Was he ever rumored to appear on the show? After all,just ahout every prince fan I knew thought prince would never be on American idol but to everyone's surprise he did


It was the unfortunate timing of being released right around 9/11.



They did a Michael Jackson themed show where the contestants all sung his songs. This was in 2009 too when he was heavily rumored to be making music and a comeback. I can’t remember if the This Is It announcements had been made. But it was a bummer he didn’t appear.

They had Stevie Wonder week too, where he actually was on the show with the contestants mentoring them. He performed as well. Prince even performed on the show.

Such a shame.
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Reply #39 posted 04/20/21 9:54am

bluegangsta

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No doubt the set has a lot of gems, but I think it could have been refined a bit more. There are a few strange inclusions (like remixes) and there was an opportunity to include some tracks that had leaked back in the day. Maybe something like this?

Disc 1 - Off The Wall/ Thriller (72:21)

  1. Ease On Down The Road (12" Version)
  2. You Can't Win
  3. Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
  4. Rock With You (Original Version)
  5. Off The Wall (Japanese Single Remix)
  6. She's Out Of My Life
  7. Sunset Driver
  8. The Girl Is Mine
  9. Billie Jean (12" Version)
  10. Beat It
  11. Someone In The Dark
  12. Hot Street
  13. The Girl Is Mine (Demo)
  14. The Lady In My Life (Full Version)
  15. P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing) (Demo)

Disc 2 - Thriller/ Bad (71:18)

  1. Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' (12" Version)
  2. Thriller
  3. Human Nature
  4. P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)
  5. We Are The World (Demo)
  6. We Are Here To Change The World
  7. I Just Can't Stop Loving You
  8. Bad (7" Single Mix)
  9. The Way You Make Me Feel
  10. Man In The Mirror (Single Edit)
  11. Dirty Diana
  12. Another Part Of Me
  13. Smooth Criminal (Video Mix - Album Edit)
  14. Cheater
  15. Monkey Business

Disc 3 - Dangerous (73:15)

  1. Black Or White
  2. Remember The Time
  3. In The Closet (Single Edit)
  4. Jam
  5. Who Is It (7" Edit)
  6. Heal The World (7" Edit)
  7. Give In To Me (Vocal Version)
  8. Will You Be There (Edit)
  9. Gone Too Soon
  10. Dangerous (Early Version)
  11. Someone Put Your Hand Out
  12. The Mind Is The Magic
  13. Serious Effect
  14. Work That Body
  15. Happy Birthday Lisa

Disc 4 - HIStory/ Blood On The Dance Floor (73:03)

  1. Scream
  2. Childhood
  3. You Are Not Alone (Extended Version)
  4. Earth Song
  5. This Time Around
  6. They Don't Care About Us
  7. Stranger In Moscow (Radio Edit)
  8. HIStory (7" HIStory Lesson Edit)
  9. Blood On The Dance Floor
  10. Ghosts
  11. Is It Scary
  12. On The Line
  13. In The Back
  14. Why
  15. Smile (Short Version)

Disc 5 - Invincible (71:22)

  1. You Rock My World
  2. Cry
  3. Butterflies
  4. Speechless
  5. Shout
  6. Fall Again
  7. Beautiful Girl
  8. Xscape
  9. She Was Loving Me
  10. A Place With No Name
  11. Blue Gangsta
  12. The Way You Love Me
  13. We've Had Enough
  14. One More Chance
  15. What More Can I Give
Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #40 posted 04/20/21 12:37pm

Phase3

bluegangsta said:

No doubt the set has a lot of gems, but I think it could have been refined a bit more. There are a few strange inclusions (like remixes) and there was an opportunity to include some tracks that had leaked back in the day. Maybe something like this?

Disc 1 - Off The Wall/ Thriller (72:21)



  1. Ease On Down The Road (12" Version)

  2. You Can't Win

  3. Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough

  4. Rock With You (Original Version)

  5. Off The Wall (Japanese Single Remix)

  6. She's Out Of My Life

  7. Sunset Driver

  8. The Girl Is Mine

  9. Billie Jean (12" Version)

  10. Beat It

  11. Someone In The Dark

  12. Hot Street

  13. The Girl Is Mine (Demo)

  14. The Lady In My Life (Full Version)

  15. P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing) (Demo)



Disc 2 - Thriller/ Bad (71:18)



  1. Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' (12" Version)

  2. Thriller

  3. Human Nature

  4. P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

  5. We Are The World (Demo)

  6. We Are Here To Change The World

  7. I Just Can't Stop Loving You

  8. Bad (7" Single Mix)

  9. The Way You Make Me Feel

  10. Man In The Mirror (Single Edit)

  11. Dirty Diana

  12. Another Part Of Me

  13. Smooth Criminal (Video Mix - Album Edit)

  14. Cheater

  15. Monkey Business



Disc 3 - Dangerous (73:15)



  1. Black Or White

  2. Remember The Time

  3. In The Closet (Single Edit)

  4. Jam

  5. Who Is It (7" Edit)

  6. Heal The World (7" Edit)

  7. Give In To Me (Vocal Version)

  8. Will You Be There (Edit)

  9. Gone Too Soon

  10. Dangerous (Early Version)

  11. Someone Put Your Hand Out

  12. The Mind Is The Magic

  13. Serious Effect

  14. Work That Body

  15. Happy Birthday Lisa



Disc 4 - HIStory/ Blood On The Dance Floor (73:03)



  1. Scream

  2. Childhood

  3. You Are Not Alone (Extended Version)

  4. Earth Song

  5. This Time Around

  6. They Don't Care About Us

  7. Stranger In Moscow (Radio Edit)

  8. HIStory (7" HIStory Lesson Edit)

  9. Blood On The Dance Floor

  10. Ghosts

  11. Is It Scary

  12. On The Line

  13. In The Back

  14. Why

  15. Smile (Short Version)


Disc 5 - Invincible (71:22)



  1. You Rock My World

  2. Cry

  3. Butterflies

  4. Speechless

  5. Shout

  6. Fall Again

  7. Beautiful Girl

  8. Xscape

  9. She Was Loving Me

  10. A Place With No Name

  11. Blue Gangsta

  12. The Way You Love Me

  13. We've Had Enough

  14. One More Chance
    More Can I Give

There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly?
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Reply #41 posted 04/20/21 3:44pm

bluegangsta

avatar

Phase3 said:

bluegangsta said:

There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly?

It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #42 posted 04/20/21 3:56pm

Phase3

bluegangsta said:



Phase3 said:


bluegangsta said:



There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly?

It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have.


Oh wow,you had my hopes up for a minute there.I thought there was a version that didn't have a fade away ending
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Reply #43 posted 04/20/21 4:11pm

alphastreet

Phase3 said:

bluegangsta said:



Phase3 said:


bluegangsta said:



There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly?

It's the version on The Ultimate Collection - about 15 seconds longer. Far from essential, but nice to have.


Oh wow,you had my hopes up for a minute there.I thought there was a version that didn't have a fade away ending


Oh wow I never noticed that! Will have to pull it out and re listen one of these days, unless it’s on YouTube
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Reply #44 posted 04/21/21 4:33am

RODSERLING

alphastreet said:

RODSERLING said:



Yes.
Had it been released in december of 2001 with a good music video ( with MJ in it!), would have been a huge seller.
What a waste. This marketing mistake killed Invincible, MJ's carreer, and I m sure his own life.


Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that

I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too
[Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm]


A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version.
Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled.

MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him.
Such a waste.
If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure.
[Edited 4/21/21 4:59am]
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Reply #45 posted 04/21/21 4:56am

RODSERLING

Phase3 said:

alphastreet said:



Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that

I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too
[Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm]


I agree there.Also,I have a feeling that the album came out around a wrong time.It was released in October 2001,america was still recovering from 9/11

The album is good but not as strong as MJ's other albums.I can't believe they were sitting on songs like chicago,place with no name,way u love me,another day,Hollywood tonight.
Those tracks are stronger than most of the invincible album


The album came 7 weeks after 9/11.
9/11 never killed album sales, that's a myth invented by some MJ fams to explain Invincible failure.

In fact, Jay Z' the Blueprint had an opening week of 427.000 the week after the attacks, and the week before Invincible, DMX was #1 with 440.000 copies.
Invincible sold " Only" 366.000.

The week after Inv, Britney sold 745.000 copies.

So 9/11 is just an excuse for the failure of Invincible.

But where it influenced Invincible promotion, is that someone at Sony thought it was a good idea to release CRY as the second single, to capitalize on the 9/11.

It could have been a great idea, Cry wasn't a bad song in itself, the lyrics were interesting, everything R Kelly did at the time was platinum, etc.

But the verses are way too long, boring, the chorus is an ersatz of Man In The Mirror, and for a humanitarian song, not really sincere since it s not written by MJ at all.
This is a song that were fit for a duet with a big name, not a solo record.

When Sony US saw the song didn't take off in airplay, they decided to go with BTFLS instead.
But, oops, the video was already shot for a million dollars.
And oops again, MJ decided at the last minute to not appear in it, which made Mottolo furious.

So they decided to go along with it in Europe, after all, MJ had great success usually there with songs not appealing for the US market. To be sure it would be profitable, for the 1st time ever Sony put a real b-side, Shout.

But despite huge airplay ( it was #6 in Europe), the single was his worst seller ever.
It killed Invincible promotion, it would have sold better if they had stopped with YRMW and released nothing more.

But I think with MJ in the video, and with some appearances on TV, it could have done better, especially in France it could have been top ten.
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Reply #46 posted 04/21/21 6:05am

bluegangsta

avatar

On Butterflies - there's also a very rare promo edit that runs for a couple of seconds longer and less compressed than the album mastering.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #47 posted 04/21/21 6:40am

alphastreet

RODSERLING said:

alphastreet said:



Also, butterflies should have had a video. It did moderately well and it would have made sense to cash in on that

I feel his issues in the 00s led to his death too
[Edited 4/17/21 16:17pm]


A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version.
Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled.

MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him.
Such a waste.
If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure.
[Edited 4/21/21 4:59am]


I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible
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Reply #48 posted 04/21/21 7:40am

RODSERLING

alphastreet said:

RODSERLING said:



A video was supposed to be shot - the remix with Eve, not the, album version.
Then a physical single was scheduled for January, then February 2002, then without video it was cancelled.

MJ refused the concepts and budgets that were proposed to him.
Such a waste.
If MJ did his job, Btfls would have been top ten in the US for sure.
[Edited 4/21/21 4:59am]


I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible


For MJ at the time, it was multi-millions dollars video or nothing.
Surely to hise his ill Bottoxed-face, like in the video for YRMW, where there s a digitized shadow over his face all along.
We can't even see his hair.

At the time, music videos were really cheap, basically Alicia Keys walking on the streets or playing piano, Usher dancing alone in a basement...

I m sure MJ could have been very good in a cheap music video, focusing on the dance moves, on Heartbreaker for instance.
And the ultra expensive Neverland would have been a great location for a cheap video for Speechless. What positive buzz it would have been, instead of Living with MJ.

There was so much to do to promote the album, what a waste of talent and opportunities.
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Reply #49 posted 04/21/21 7:42am

alphastreet

RODSERLING said:

alphastreet said:



I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible


For MJ at the time, it was multi-millions dollars video or nothing.
Surely to hise his ill Bottoxed-face, like in the video for YRMW, where there s a digitized shadow over his face all along.
We can't even see his hair.

At the time, music videos were really cheap, basically Alicia Keys walking on the streets or playing piano, Usher dancing alone in a basement...

I m sure MJ could have been very good in a cheap music video, focusing on the dance moves, on Heartbreaker for instance.
And the ultra expensive Neverland would have been a great location for a cheap video for Speechless. What positive buzz it would have been, instead of Living with MJ.

There was so much to do to promote the album, what a waste of talent and opportunities.


Total waste. I feel like he could have sung something at the fan parties later too in accapella, just to spoil us a little
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Reply #50 posted 04/21/21 10:20am

PatrickS77

avatar

RODSERLING said:

alphastreet said:
I thought Sony screwed him over. There should have been a video and it would have been a success for sure. Saddens me that mjs heart wasn’t into invincible
For MJ at the time, it was multi-millions dollars video or nothing. Surely to hise his ill Bottoxed-face, like in the video for YRMW, where there s a digitized shadow over his face all along. We can't even see his hair. At the time, music videos were really cheap, basically Alicia Keys walking on the streets or playing piano, Usher dancing alone in a basement... I m sure MJ could have been very good in a cheap music video, focusing on the dance moves, on Heartbreaker for instance. And the ultra expensive Neverland would have been a great location for a cheap video for Speechless. What positive buzz it would have been, instead of Living with MJ. There was so much to do to promote the album, what a waste of talent and opportunities.

That whole era wasn't right for Michael Jackson, the popstar. I mean, he had a 4 and 3 year old kid (or 5 and 4) and in early 2002 he got another one and was a single father. Clearly being a pop star wasn't his focus.

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Reply #51 posted 04/22/21 6:37pm

Phase3

What is everyone heres favorite posthumous MJ album?
I will have to say "Xscape".I was gonna say BAD 25 but I think it wasn't as good as it should have been.
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Reply #52 posted 04/22/21 9:12pm

Superstition

avatar

Phase3 said:
There is a Extended version of YANA? What is the length exactly?


The ad-libs on the fade-our are killer. There is a remix by SWG on YouTube and I don’t know if they just mixed it really well or they had the full version, but it’s even better than the one on TUC.

As for Invinvible, MJ was 43, suffered bad press for some time and had been around 30 years. To be ranking up there with Britney Spears and Jay-Z isn’t bad at all. What other artist of his longevity had the same success? Especially since he never toured the states again, and virtually never appeared on talk shows and such to promote his stuff?

I don’t know if the rumors of him wanting to do a video for Unbreaksble or not were true, but I think that could have helped.

Invincible is only a “failure” in the sense of comparing it to his past albums, which is asinine. It’s a bit lopsided, but oddly enough, also one of his more balanced albums. Remember when Napster and CD burning was huge, and people would sell mixtapes on the street, in G-shops, etc? Invincible material was all over them.

Is it his best album? No. Worst? Maybe, but he only really has six adult albums anyways, so that’s not saying much.

At worst, one review I read stated it best: Around 2000, everyone was trying to be the next Michael Jackson, and with Invincible, Michael Jackson was trying to sound like everyone else.
[Edited 4/22/21 21:20pm]
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Reply #53 posted 04/22/21 10:39pm

alphastreet

If mj sounded like anyone else, it was cause the album took way too long to make
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Reply #54 posted 04/23/21 4:47am

RODSERLING

Considering the lack of video, tv performances, etc. Invincible wasn't a commercial failure in the US, I agree.
It was successful in France too.

But in the rest of the World, it was a huge commercial faimure after the first week of sales.
In Germany, it stayed only one month in the top 50, in Poland it didn't make the top ten and stayed only 3 or 4 weeks in the top 50, in UKUK 5 weeks in the top 40...
It was a huge failure from the start!

The UK used to be a big market for MJ. In 1995/1997 he ranked 8 singles consecutively in the top 5.
Cry only did #25, for a second single that was such a letdown.
And that s the only reason why there was no third single released in Europe.


If Cry was a top 10 in France, UK, Germany, Holland, etc. There would have been a 3rd single released in airplay and physical, let's say for Unbreakable, music video shot or not.

There was a video planned for Unbreak when it was supposed to be the lead single
MJ wanted it big, like 20 minutes with a reported 6 millions $ budget.

But he wasn't satisfied with the concepts Sony proposed him, and frankly MJ didn't have one neither.
So when it was obvious it would take months amd the album should be pushed back to 2002, Mottola forced him to release YRMW instead with a more "modest" 4 millions $ budget.

MJ thought again about the project, hired and fired two directors, and in march of 2002, Mottola told him if he wanted his video, he should have to pay himself for it, since the album was dead in the charts everywhere in the world.

As of April 2002, the truth is that MJ still didn't have one clear concept for Unbreakable.
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Reply #55 posted 04/23/21 5:04am

wilmer

There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs.

The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade.
[Edited 4/23/21 5:06am]
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Reply #56 posted 04/23/21 4:02pm

Free2BMe

wilmer said:

There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs.

The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade.
[Edited 4/23/21 5:06am]


I have been listening to Invincible everyday for the last week. That album has stayed constant for me, especially YRMW, Butterflies, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait.
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Reply #57 posted 04/23/21 4:30pm

alphastreet

I get excited when putting on other mj albums than invincible, but for invincible though I like it, I have to be in the mood for it
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Reply #58 posted 04/23/21 4:59pm

Phase3

wilmer said:

There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs.

The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade.
[Edited 4/23/21 5:06am]

No love for "Threatened"?
I believe MJ favored that one because it was apart of the "This is it" set list
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Reply #59 posted 04/24/21 9:26am

wilmer

Phase3 said:

wilmer said:

There's only two cuts that I actually truly like from Invincible: Butterflies and Whatever happens. They always end up on my MJ playlist. I believed at the time and I believe now that they were the only tracks from the album that added something valuable to his catalogue. He could have swapped out all the others with sth else. Not to say that Unbreakable and maybe Break of Dawn or Heaven Can Wait were subpar but they sound like rehashes of songs from his back catalogue. Those two I mentioned are among my best of list of MJ songs.

The album as a whole let me down over time. I realize now that at the time I was jonesing for MJ stuff and anything would have done. I guess I was more excited about the fact we were getting a huge collection of new songs than the actual songs. The album just didn't have the appeal of albums like Dangerous or the new songs CD of History. It is one that I haven't listened to from start to finish in over a decade.
[Edited 4/23/21 5:06am]

No love for "Threatened"?
I believe MJ favored that one because it was apart of the "This is it" set list


Oversight on my part. I like that one.
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Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Let's discuss MJ's Ultimate Collection box set from 2004