CynicKill said:

MotownSubdivision said:

CynicKill said:

She kinda had the same arguement against Drake.

Now I'm no Drake cheerleader by any means, but her arguement that he was this big culture vulture who never put anyone on can be easily disproved.

All she had to do is look up how many records he's guested on and vice versa and she'd see that.

I don't know what his intentions are, and since I don't thought-police I don't care. The outcome is that he's put people on. He's the big name here.

I think her heart gets in the way of her head with her arguements.

Drake does have a reputation of being exploitative and trend-hoppy though. It's been documented that Weeknd wanted nothing more to do with Drake since the guy allegedly took some of Weeknd's own songs to put on Take Care (his best album BTW). The consensus on most OVO artists is that Drake takes their best work and uses it for himself, putting their songs on his own projects which would explain why aside from one notable song, everybody who signs to Drake's label ends up going nowhere after. You're basically signing your career away if you make the decision to join OVO. Drake also has bitten nearly every style of hip hop at its most commercially viable (most notably dance hall music back during the Views era). Drake has a reputation for being an opportunistic and self-serving individual in the hip hop world. However, he's been more interested in playing the pop game for years now and abides less by the standards of the game which is why he's less respected there despite continuing to be a popular act. Though he still has a big black following, I wouldn't be surprised if his fanbase now mostly consists of casuals/pop listeners since he's crossed over more than any rapper has managed too. I haven't heard her assessment of Drake but I'm more inclined to agree on that. Her assessment on Bruno, however, is misinformed and just flat out ignorant.

I'm sure all that stuff about Drake is true.

But from what I understand about the Take Care situation is that it was supposed to be a tit for tat but it fell apart. Who knows.

I'm just not big on appropriation arguements.

To me once it's out there anyone who gravitates towards it and appreciates it is welcome to it.

Is this appropriation?

Or this:

>

https://www.youtube.com/w...gSbDS1TusQ

CynicKill said:

Can we talk about Bruno & Anderson's new song, tho?

TrivialPursuit said:

Can we talk about Bruno & Anderson's new song, tho?

>

It's nicely produced and well performed.

MickyDolenz said:

Ottensen said:

TELL IT!

The same young folks out here ready to tear Bfruno's arse up are many of the same ones upholding Cardi B on a pedestal, when this young woman has told us point blank in several long form interviews that she doesn't care about the craft of music making, she's only in it for the money. As an old black woman who grew up appreciating the importance of music as culture and how it influences the world across all genres and ethncities, please miss me with the BS. By today's standards of of what constitutes cultural appropriation, I shouldn't have family members who are classical musicians, jazz should not be one of the most rigorously studied genres of music on the planet amongst genius musicians, and I shouldn't have grown up studying ballet. This generation annoys the hell out of me.

B.B. King has said that many black people in the 1960s were ashamed of blues music, they considered it country and backwards. He said it was the young white British acts who would shout them out and put the blues acts on their tours. Which increased their popularity. King also said that Frank Sinatra helped him to get gigs in Las Vegas during that time. Before then, many black performers only got booked on the chitlin' circuit playing in juke joints. If you look at the audience for blues and jazz today the audiences are often majority white and has been for several decades. So if they were depending on the black audience to make money, those genres would probably be extinct today or have a small cult audience.

Of this I am sadly well aware. A few years back I took a freelance editing gig courtesy of a good friend and sound engineer to help do the final edit the entire archive of a famous jazz festival here in Europe- an annual festival dating back I don't know how many decades. In addition to the concert performances, I was responsible for the final edit of workshops and master classes legendary jazz icons held for university students. The level of reverence and devotion these young musicians had for the genre they were studying was as intense and dedicated as any you'd find in classical music. It was a beautiful thing to witness how my culture has literally impacted the art of music on a global level, yet frustrating that this treasure trove of history and technique was completely dimissed by today's younger generation of black audiences.

Man, I don't know what it is about the late nineties going into the 21st century, but in my view, whatever low vibrational music drivel the time had to offer virtually wiped away any interest performing and perserving what we created that later went on to influence the world. It's all reather sad really, and why I have very little patience for these new fangled young folks who are suddenly offended that the music has gone on to impact culture at large on a global scale.

TrivialPursuit said:

Ottensen said:

and why I have very little patience for these new fangled young folks who are suddenly offended that the music has gone on to impact culture at large on a global scale.

Probably the same people who gripe about Black British actors playing Black Americans. That only "ADOS" should only play them. The thing is is that that there were black people in North America long before the European settlers came & started the colonies and long before Columbus supposedly discovered it. He never set foot in America, he landed on the island Hispaniola. Columbus wasn't even the first white person, the Vikings came before him. The Chinese reached North America before Columbus too.

As far as music, hip hop has gone around the world in a way that R&B, jazz, blues, & even rock n roll hasn't. There's rappers in hundreds of countries and many languages.

Ottensen said:

MickyDolenz said:

B.B. King has said that many black people in the 1960s were ashamed of blues music, they considered it country and backwards. He said it was the young white British acts who would shout them out and put the blues acts on their tours. Which increased their popularity. King also said that Frank Sinatra helped him to get gigs in Las Vegas during that time. Before then, many black performers only got booked on the chitlin' circuit playing in juke joints. If you look at the audience for blues and jazz today the audiences are often majority white and has been for several decades. So if they were depending on the black audience to make money, those genres would probably be extinct today or have a small cult audience.

Of this I am sadly well aware. A few years back I took a freelance editing gig courtesy of a good friend and sound engineer to help do the final edit the entire archive of a famous jazz festival here in Europe- an annual festival dating back I don't know how many decades. In addition to the concert performances, I was responsible for the final edit of workshops and master classes legendary jazz icons held for university students. The level of reverence and devotion these young musicians had for the genre they were studying was as intense and dedicated as any you'd find in classical music. It was a beautiful thing to witness how my culture has literally impacted the art of music on a global level, yet frustrating that this treasure trove of history and technique was completely dimissed by today's younger generation of black audiences.

Man, I don't know what it is about the late nineties going into the 21st century, but in my view, whatever low vibrational music drivel the time had to offer virtually wiped away any interest performing and perserving what we created that later went on to influence the world. It's all reather sad really, and why I have very little patience for these new fangled young folks who are suddenly offended that the music has gone on to impact culture at large on a global scale.

Wow, if black people had that attitude, jazz, funk, rock, and rnb would've never happened. Clutching on to traditions is what sterilizes culture. Most of modern music had its roots in black American culture because through slavery our ancestors were stripped of our ancient traditions and were forced to create new ones. Each generation of black youth taking a bit of the past and rejecting most of it and creating something new is damn near a black tradition in itself. Jazz used to be called the devil's music and considered vulgar. Imagine young black musicians listening to their elders and rejecting this degrading, terrible music called jazz.

Let's be hoenst who would you rather listen to Miles Davis, the musician who was constanting pushing into new territory in his art or Wynton Marsalis, the highly respected Jazz traditionalist who never made a seminal work of art. That's why I don't care for Bruno Mars. Maybe out of need or lack of vision, he recreates old sounds, sterilizes them and puts them in pretty glass jars. His music is never messy, chaotic, unnerving, or bold. What sets him apart is he is the only one allowed to make and profit of this type of music in the mainstream arena.

lrn36 said:

Ottensen said:

Of this I am sadly well aware. A few years back I took a freelance editing gig courtesy of a good friend and sound engineer to help do the final edit the entire archive of a famous jazz festival here in Europe- an annual festival dating back I don't know how many decades. In addition to the concert performances, I was responsible for the final edit of workshops and master classes legendary jazz icons held for university students. The level of reverence and devotion these young musicians had for the genre they were studying was as intense and dedicated as any you'd find in classical music. It was a beautiful thing to witness how my culture has literally impacted the art of music on a global level, yet frustrating that this treasure trove of history and technique was completely dimissed by today's younger generation of black audiences.

Man, I don't know what it is about the late nineties going into the 21st century, but in my view, whatever low vibrational music drivel the time had to offer virtually wiped away any interest performing and perserving what we created that later went on to influence the world. It's all reather sad really, and why I have very little patience for these new fangled young folks who are suddenly offended that the music has gone on to impact culture at large on a global scale.

Wow, if black people had that attitude, jazz, funk, rock, and rnb would've never happened. Clutching on to traditions is what sterilizes culture. Most of modern music had its roots in black American culture because through slavery our ancestors were stripped of our ancient traditions and were forced to create new ones. Each generation of black youth taking a bit of the past and rejecting most of it and creating something new is damn near a black tradition in itself. Jazz used to be called the devil's music and considered vulgar. Imagine young black musicians listening to their elders and rejecting this degrading, terrible music called jazz.

Let's be hoenst who would you rather listen to Miles Davis, the musician who was constanting pushing into new territory in his art or Wynton Marsalis, the highly respected Jazz traditionalist who never made a seminal work of art. That's why I don't care for Bruno Mars. Maybe out of need or lack of vision, he recreates old sounds, sterilizes them and puts them in pretty glass jars. His music is never messy, chaotic, unnerving, or bold. What sets him apart is he is the only one allowed to make and profit of this type of music in the mainstream arena.

You might have something there with Old Man Wynton (as my brother always called him) but his band is a nice night out you must admit.

He and Stanley Crouch (RIP) were in the same boat. Never liked anything past 1960.

It's a shame he would never give the likes of Makaya McCraven or Yusef Dayes any recognition.

CynicKill said:

Or this:

>

https://www.youtube.com/w...gSbDS1TusQ

This one has got some seriously interesting responses here in Ireland, from the "wow, this is fucking amazing and great to see" to the straight up worst racists crawling out of the woodwork.

There's always been retro acts, some have become mainstream popular.

1970s: Sha Na Na, Blues Brothers, Grease Soundtrack

1980s: Stray Cats, Big Chill Soundtrack, Dirty Dancing Soundtrack, Billy Joel - An Innocent Man, Stars On 45, Buster Poindexter

1990s: Brand New Heavies, Jamiroquai, The Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, The Black Crowes, Natalie Cole

2000s: Michael Bublé, Joss Groban, Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, Adrian Younge, Sheena Ringo, The Pipettes, Rod Stewart American Songbook albums

MickyDolenz said:

There's always been retro acts, some have become mainstream popular.

1970s: Sha Na Na, Blues Brothers, Grease Soundtrack

1980s: Stray Cats, Big Chill Soundtrack, Dirty Dancing Soundtrack, Billy Joel - An Innocent Man, Stars On 45, Buster Poindexter

1990s: Brand New Heavies, Jamiroquai, The Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, The Black Crowes, Natalie Cole

2000s: Michael Bublé, Joss Groban, Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, Adrian Younge, Sheena Ringo, The Pipettes, Rod Stewart American Songbook albums

Sha Na Na, Blue Brothers, and Buster Poindexter as well as some of the other mentioned were novelty acts. They knew it and the audience knew it. No one was saying they were the greatest artists of their time. If you're saying that Bruno is a fun novelty act, then that's a fair accessment. But isn't there a problem that one of the most celebrated artists is indeed a novelty act.

Some of the other artist mentioned like Billy Joel and Rod Stewart were having their back to basics moments. Almost every artist has that point where they feel lost or at crosswords in their work so they go back to basics or the source of their inspiration as way to reset themselves. Most of Bruno's career is a series of back to basics of multiple eras, but where is the reset? When does he take the step to something new or current? And how did he get a back to basic mode so early in his career. I know he started with a syrupy acoustic ballads early on, but did he run out of ideas that quick?

The other artists like Brand New Heavies, Jamiroquai, and Sharon Jones were tied to a specific era of music and they wanted to expand on it. They were not just content to recreate a sound but too recontextualize it. It's no different that George Lucas and Steven Spielberg taking old movie serials and adventure films from the 30s and 40s and making Raiders of the Lost Ark. You could see the nods to an older era, but the movie essential became its own thing and redefined action movies for the 80s and 90s. Do you honestly see anything like that in Bruno's music?

These assertions about Bruno have been around for while. Well, before he started jumping deep into RnB music. Here's excerpt from a critic back in 2014 of Bruno Mars

"Which is why it’s so hard to reconcile the image of the guy mugging among chimpanzee masks and the incarnation of Bruno Mars who keeps showing up at the Staples Center to perform at the Grammys. There’s clearly an electrifying performer within the co-writer of “Just The Way You Are,” “Grenade,” and other syrupy ballads for dorm-room troubadours. The prime example of that being the version of “Grenade” Mars put on stage at the 53rd Annual Grammys, a James Brown-aping torching of the single that he followed by backing Janelle Monáe on an even more fiery take on her “Cold War.” He struck similar poses in a Video Music Awards tribute to Amy Winehouse, giving a Motown revue-style spin to Winehouse’s “Valerie.” A pattern emerged: When Bruno Mars isn’t playing Bruno Mars’ music, he’s pretty fucking good.

Which brings us to “Locked Out Of Heaven,” Mars’ second Song Of The Year nominee alongside collaborators Philip Lawrence and Ari Levine. (Collectively, they’re known as The Smeezingtons—which, seriously, Bruno… it’s a goddamn roller coaster with your corniness.) “Locked Out Of Heaven” is a Police lift so shameless, it would’ve been rude to play the song without Sting at last year’s Grammys ceremony. The drums don’t have anything on Stewart Copeland, but “Locked Out Of Heaven” makes The Police’s itchy, dubbed-out post-punk sound more vibrant than it has since the original pressing of Zenyatta Mondatta. I don’t want to come off like I’m encouraging a young, still-developing artist to give up on any of the qualities that make his music unique—it’s just that I don’t think I could identify such a quality within earlier Bruno Mars compositions. He’s a cipher, but a cipher with an agreeable record collection. (It’s still surprising to me that “Treasure” is a track from Mars’ Unorthodox Jukebox—sigh—and not Daft Punk’s Random Access Memories.) If The Smeezingtons want to keep synthesizing yesterday’s favorites into today’s hits—and their work on Cee-Lo’s “Fuck You” shores up their bona fides on that count—I could find it within myself to stomach Mars on more than one night of the year."

https://music.avclub.com/...1798265667

[Edited 3/14/21 12:49pm]

lrn36 said:

No one was saying they were the greatest artists of their time.

I don't believe in that. Music is music to me. I don't differentiate like music snobs do. I don't believe in music being "cheesy" or "guilty pleasures" either. Sha Na Na is just as valid as Stevie Wonder to me. One of my favorite singers is Weird Al.

MickyDolenz said:

lrn36 said:

No one was saying they were the greatest artists of their time.

I don't believe in that. Music is music to me. I don't differentiate like music snobs do. I don't believe in music being "cheesy" or "guilty pleasures" either. Sha Na Na is just as valid as Stevie Wonder to me. One of my favorite singers is Weird Al.

So do you refuse to assign a value to all music or only the music you personally like? Your username in MickyDolenz. Hey, I like the Monkees. I grew up on reruns of the show and I occasionally listen to their music. My favorites being Randy Scouse Git, What I'm Doing Hangin' Round, Goin' Down, and Cuddly Toy just to name a few. I remember the Sha Na Na tv variety show and also got a kick out of Weird Al. Would I put them on the same level as Prince, David Bowie, Marvin Gaye, or Stevie Wonder? No, but that's just me. It could be different for someone else. I wouldn't consider that person a snob for having different tastes or expressing those tastes. People will like what they like or hate what they hate.

I don't like Bruno Mars because he is derivative and doesn't seem to have any musical personality or core. He going through and mimicking every decade of popular black music. He's the musical version of Zelig. Unfortunately, all this talk about his place in music is the most interesting thing going on in mainstream pop music.

Blue Ivy becomes the youngest grammy honoree!!!

Extremely posh Roger Scruton has something to say about not wanting to judge music:

>

https://www.youtube.com/w...Yua80VEcBk

lrn36 said:

So do you refuse to assign a value to all music or only the music you personally like?

I don't rate any music as being better than another. That's the opinion of the listener. I either like it or I don't. It's not because I think somebody is a "superior artist" or "real music by real musicians". All music is real, it doesn't matter if it being played by a person or a robot. As long as music makes somebody happy that's all that matters. I've never understood people who always talking about something sucks.

I picked the name Micky Dolenz on purpose, because The Monkees is one of my favorite groups and I knew that the Rolling Stones (magazine, not the group) of the world put them down because they were put together for a TV show. So what? They made music I like and I like the show too. I have it on DVD. Mike Nesmith is one of the first to make country rock songs. I also would defend Kenny G & Whitney Houston from people such as Vainandy. I listen to adult contemporary & easy listening. I'm not ashamed of it. I sometimes watch Lawrence Welk reruns and I have albums by Donny & Marie. I don't think listening to Prince music makes someone cooler than someone who listens to Air Supply or Celine Dion. I'm also not one of these "get off my lawn" folks who only like music made decades ago or something that sounds like it. I like some Megan Thee Stallion & BTS songs.

MickyDolenz said:

lrn36 said:

So do you refuse to assign a value to all music or only the music you personally like?

I don't rate any music as being better than another. That's the opinion of the listener. I either like it or I don't. It's not because I think somebody is a "superior artist" or "real music by real musicians". All music is real, it doesn't matter if it being played by a person or a robot. As long as music makes somebody happy that's all that matters. I've never understood people who always talking about something sucks.

I picked the name Micky Dolenz on purpose, because The Monkees is one of my favorite groups and I knew that the Rolling Stones (magazine, not the group) of the world put them down because they were put together for a TV show. So what? They made music I like and I like the show too. I have it on DVD. Mike Nesmith is one of the first to make country rock songs. I also would defend Kenny G & Whitney Houston from people such as Vainandy. I listen to adult contemporary & easy listening. I'm not ashamed of it. I sometimes watch Lawrence Welk reruns and I have albums by Donny & Marie. I don't think listening to Prince music makes someone cooler than someone who listens to Air Supply or Celine Dion. I'm also not one of these "get off my lawn" folks who only like music made decades ago or something that sounds like it. I like some Megan Thee Stallion & BTS songs.

Hey, I get it. I found myself watching an Olivia Newton John ABC special with ABBA, and Andy Gibb on youtube and was highly entertained. Then watching YBN Cordae's track Old Niggas which was a response to J Cole's 1985. He said the older generation was justed as screwed up and had no place criticizing the young generation. I can't say he is wrong. Believe my music tastes are wide and random. Bruno has the right to make the music he wants and I have a right not to like it.

MotownSubdivision said:

Sure. I hope this song becomes a hit. If it does it'll be the first love making jam on the charts since the 2000s at the latest. It's crazy how we've had an endless stream of popular music over the past almost 20 years laced with innuendo and straight up explicit sexuality but have had zero popular slow jams for the bedroom.

There was a guy on YouTube who was a music teacher. He listened to the song for the first time, immediately picking out the chords (it's in C), and talking about the structure of the song. He mentioned how the pre-chorus goes to an Eb (E-flat), totally out of the original key before going back to the chorus.

He talked about how the bass is very Motown influenced, the drums are dry without a lot of reverb, and there is a lot of call and response with the background. He also talked about songs which rely so heavily on the background voices helping to tell the story, rather than just enhancing the lead vocal. It really gave voice and context to different elements of the song.

I'm truly ready to hear it. Like Bruno or not, but he's giving what he was raised on and making it new again. Jill Scott, Maxwell, and a lot of neo-soul folks did the same thing. It's not just a regurgitation or appropriation. It's reintroducing it to a new generation, by their own peers.

I personally consider Bruno to be the textbook definition of a culture vulture given that he's so blatantly inspired by Black artists to the point where he basically just rips them off and was actually sporting an afro/Jheri curl hairdo at one point despite not being off African descent just to keep up the pretense.

That said, my dislike of his music has less to do with that and more to do with me simply finding everything that he does creatively bankrupt. He's the most simple, cookie-cutter funk/pop/soul/R&B chimera that I've ever seen.

[Edited 3/14/21 18:45pm]

Oshawott said:

I personally consider Bruno to be the textbook definition of a culture vulture given that he's so blatantly inspired by Black artists to the point where he basically just rips them off and was actually sporting an afro/Jheri curl hairdo at one point despite not being off African descent just to keep up the pretense.

That said, my dislike of his music has less to do with that and more to do with me simply finding everything that he does creatively bankrupt. He's the most simple, cookie-cutter funk/pop/soul/R&B chimera that I've ever seen.

Then don't listen.

You probably shouldn't listen to Prince either, while you're at it. He's stolen half of Sly, James, and Santana's routines, plus that rockabilly Little Richard gig.

There's always Yoko Ono albums.

After having heard the song some more times I have to say it has grown on me. The song is catchy, very well written, arranged and played. And the video is spot on, it 's a lot of fun and really adds to the vibe of the track.

By the logic of 'culture vulture' Bruno is only allowed to play Fillippino and Puerto Rican styles of music, and maybe some Hawaian music as he was born there. That is ridiculous IMO. Every person grows up with the music he or she encounters during their life, and you simply like what you like.

When I grew up as a white youngster in Europe I took a liking to black music styles over any white styles. Not because I wanted to appropriate black music and culture, but simply because I prefer the rhythms, smoothness and the soulful singing of black music styles. It just appeals to me. I am sure it is the same for Bruno. Does this mean we should never be creating/playing the music that we love and inspired us ourselves, because of our non-black origins???

I saw one reaction video by two older black dudes who loved the new Mars & Paak track and said that they were glad someone was trying to bring this kind of 70's soul music vibe with real instruments back to popular music in the present days. And said that any black folks that had a problem with Bruno 'appropriating' black music styles should go out and do an album of that specific sound on their own, instead of complaining that non-blacks are 'stealing the sound and vibe' of a certain music style that has black origins. I fully agree with them.

There are no black artists. Race is bs.

RJOrion said:

CynicKill said:

It rears it's ugly head:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/...index.html

culture vultures getting called out...it's a beautiful thing

The youtube lady at the beginning hit the NAIL on the head.

Doesn't improve, doesn't change, doesn't add.

That was perfect.

Graycap23 said:

RJOrion said:

CynicKill said: culture vultures getting called out...it's a beautiful thing

The youtube lady at the beginning hit the NAIL on the head.

Doesn't improve, doesn't change, doesn't add.

That was perfect.

Although for whatever reason Awaken, My Love was pretty much given a pass when it did the same.

funkaholic1972 said:

funkaholic1972 said:

I saw one reaction video by two older black dudes who loved the new Mars & Paak track and said that they were glad someone was trying to bring this kind of 70's soul music vibe with real instruments back to popular music in the present days.

So whay has Mint Condition, Reheem Devaghn, Van Hunt and others beed doing?

Graycap23 said:

funkaholic1972 said:

I saw one reaction video by two older black dudes who loved the new Mars & Paak track and said that they were glad someone was trying to bring this kind of 70's soul music vibe with real instruments back to popular music in the present days.

So what has Mint Condition, Reheem Devaghn, Van Hunt and others been doing?

No one's discounting them. It's not a contest, really. There is room for everyone. Someone, many, have to pick up the mantle. So now that there are a group of folks doing that, including the ones you listed, let's just enjoy it instead of tearing it down. Beats 85% of the shit on the radio right now.

I just saw a new Maroon 5 video with Megan Thee Stallion. I appreciate MTS, but the song was balls. It was more like an Adam Levine solo song (which most M5 songs tend to be in the last decade anyway, and they're progressively worse each time). I'd put Silk Sonic on repeat for days before I ever listened to that M5 shit again.