PatrickS77 said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

There's no way in hell MJ could've pulled off the 50 shows. It's not solely Murray's fault either. MJ had a history with battling addiction before, he demanded the propofol. He was addicted and if it wasn't murray, it would've been another doctor. Murray was just stupid enough to do it.

Yes. There is. Also he used Propofol during the HIStory tour, but had a doctor who didn't kill him doing so. So whether he demand it, is beside the point. The doctor gave it to him in a way that killed him, unlike the one he had druing the HIStory tour. And whether he was addicted also is not proven.

He was addicted, are you serious? He was in a clinic and left it. Elizabeth taylor and elton john brought him there. And addiction over the years, takes a toll on your body. Wether you like it or not, MJ most likely wouldn't have pulled off these 50 shows. Just watch his show at maddison square garden, he looks totally out of it. If you need to take propofol to sleep, you have serious problems. Plus the autopsy said there were several punctures on his body. There's several people who said that he was addicted.

Also, need I remind you that you don't actually sleep if you take propofol? You don't feel rested at all, it's a never ending cicle of tiredness and the fact that he took it way back in the day is actually more reason to believe that he was an addict and this is what ultimately killed him. If you take it almost every night, you die. There's a reason why you shouldn't have a whole list of surgeries a year. People wait a reasonable amount of time to make a second one after the first.

And seriously, he's responsible for his own death too. Not only murray. He was the one who demanded it. He knew the risks and didn't give a fuck. His egotism is the reason why his kids lost their father. But go ahead and blame everyone else for decisions he ultimately made. It's so much easier to destroy your body than to actually try to change your life for the better.

[Edited 1/31/21 10:44am]

[Edited 1/31/21 10:49am]

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

Yes. There is. Also he used Propofol during the HIStory tour, but had a doctor who didn't kill him doing so. So whether he demand it, is beside the point. The doctor gave it to him in a way that killed him, unlike the one he had druing the HIStory tour. And whether he was addicted also is not proven.

He was addicted, are you serious? He was in a clinic and left it. Elizabeth taylor and elton john brought him there. And addiction over the years, takes a toll on your body. Wether you like it or not, MJ most likely wouldn't have pulled off these 50 shows. Just watch his show at maddison square garden, he looks totally out of it. If you need to take propofol to sleep, you have serious problems. Plus the autopsy said there were several punctures on his body. There's several people who said that he was addicted.

Also, need I remind you that you don't actually sleep if you take propofol? You don't feel rested at all, it's a never ending cicle of tiredness and the fact that he took it way back in the day is actually more reason to believe that he was an addict and this is what ultimately killed him. If you take it almost every night, you die. There's a reason why you shouldn't have a whole list of surgeries a year. People wait a reasonable amount of time to make a second one after the first.

And seriously, he's responsible for his own death too. Not only murray. He was the one who demanded it. He knew the risks and didn't give a fuck. His egotism is the reason why his kids lost their father. But go ahead and blame everyone else for decisions he ultimately made. It's so much easier to destroy your body than to actually try to change your life for the better.

[Edited 1/31/21 10:44am]

[Edited 1/31/21 10:49am]

I'm not saying you're wrong, so let's get that out of the way. You could be right, and I would wager likely are.

But the question was whether he could do the shows, and had the propofol not killed him, I don't see why he wouldn't have.

His autopsy showed no signs of drug or alcohol addiciton, besides the propofol. Drug and alcohol abuse manifests itself in lots of visible ways; live and kidney damage, jaundice, severe weight loss or gain (MJ was on the low end of normal - not emaciated as people thought). Propofol can kill you even if you're healthy as a horse. So either the propofol would have killed him or it wouldn't have. If it didn't, he may have well been just fine doing the shows.

The stories about MJ's drug use and addiciton are all over the map. Some say he had years-long severe, chronic pain. Others say he was fine and was ready to return to the stage. And you hear everything in between.

Clearly, someone doesn't take a surgical anisthetic to sleep without having problems. Insomnia is a bitch, and I know what it feels like to be desperate to sleep. If that was a problem, then its really just a roll of the dice of whether he would have died or not.

I think

Superstition said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

He was addicted, are you serious? He was in a clinic and left it. Elizabeth taylor and elton john brought him there. And addiction over the years, takes a toll on your body. Wether you like it or not, MJ most likely wouldn't have pulled off these 50 shows. Just watch his show at maddison square garden, he looks totally out of it. If you need to take propofol to sleep, you have serious problems. Plus the autopsy said there were several punctures on his body. There's several people who said that he was addicted.

Also, need I remind you that you don't actually sleep if you take propofol? You don't feel rested at all, it's a never ending cicle of tiredness and the fact that he took it way back in the day is actually more reason to believe that he was an addict and this is what ultimately killed him. If you take it almost every night, you die. There's a reason why you shouldn't have a whole list of surgeries a year. People wait a reasonable amount of time to make a second one after the first.

And seriously, he's responsible for his own death too. Not only murray. He was the one who demanded it. He knew the risks and didn't give a fuck. His egotism is the reason why his kids lost their father. But go ahead and blame everyone else for decisions he ultimately made. It's so much easier to destroy your body than to actually try to change your life for the better.

[Edited 1/31/21 10:44am]

[Edited 1/31/21 10:49am]

I'm not saying you're wrong, so let's get that out of the way. You could be right, and I would wager likely are.

But the question was whether he could do the shows, and had the propofol not killed him, I don't see why he wouldn't have.

His autopsy showed no signs of drug or alcohol addiciton, besides the propofol. Drug and alcohol abuse manifests itself in lots of visible ways; live and kidney damage, jaundice, severe weight loss or gain (MJ was on the low end of normal - not emaciated as people thought). Propofol can kill you even if you're healthy as a horse. So either the propofol would have killed him or it wouldn't have. If it didn't, he may have well been just fine doing the shows.

The stories about MJ's drug use and addiciton are all over the map. Some say he had years-long severe, chronic pain. Others say he was fine and was ready to return to the stage. And you hear everything in between.

Clearly, someone doesn't take a surgical anisthetic to sleep without having problems. Insomnia is a bitch, and I know what it feels like to be desperate to sleep. If that was a problem, then its really just a roll of the dice of whether he would have died or not.

I think

I just read it up and I think you're right about the addiction. I didn't know that.

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

Yes. There is. Also he used Propofol during the HIStory tour, but had a doctor who didn't kill him doing so. So whether he demand it, is beside the point. The doctor gave it to him in a way that killed him, unlike the one he had druing the HIStory tour. And whether he was addicted also is not proven.

He was addicted, are you serious? He was in a clinic and left it. Elizabeth taylor and elton john brought him there. And addiction over the years, takes a toll on your body.

In '93. And he got clean. There is no reason to believe that he stayed addicted for the next 16 years. Regardless of what some people with agendas or no clue say. I'm not saying that he hadn't had episodes where he was on something, but just like Superstition says, the autopsy doesn't suggest constant abuse. And if constant drug use would have taken place, why did he die when he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before? If he was addicted to Propofol, why did he die exactly as he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before?? Maybe, because he just wasn't using Propofol and prescription drugs all the time? Maybe because he just used it while he had that certain doctor, which got hired for TII?!

And yes, he is responsible in the sense that he trusted his doctor to keep him safe. That he would watch him over his "sleep". To make sure he wouldn't die and Murray failed to to that. And he failed to refuse to do it without the proper equipment to watch over him, which he, as a professional, should have done. And yes, using Propopfol to "sleep" is a quick fix and not properly addressing the issue and fixing it, which obviously would have required time and work. Maybe he was just desperate to get it done and have quick results and figured it would get him over the shows, where obviously he had a schedule to actually sleep as opposed to his regular life where it probably wouldn't matter when he gets to sleep. Obviously it helped him during the HIStory tour and didn't kill him then, so he just did it again. He spoke about how he had trouble during touring to get to sleep after the shows, how adrenaline would be high and he would just stay awake.

[Edited 1/31/21 16:33pm]

PatrickS77 said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

He was addicted, are you serious? He was in a clinic and left it. Elizabeth taylor and elton john brought him there. And addiction over the years, takes a toll on your body.

In '93. And he got clean. There is no reason to believe that he stayed addicted for the next 16 years. Regardless of what some people with agendas or no clue say. I'm not saying that he hadn't had episodes where he was on something, but just like Superstition says, the autopsy doesn't suggest constant abuse. And if constant drug use would have taken place, why did he die when he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before? If he was addicted to Propofol, why did he die exactly as he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before?? Maybe, because he just wasn't using Propofol and prescription drugs all the time? Maybe because he just used it while he had that certain doctor, which got hired for TII?!

And yes, he is responsible in the sense that he trusted his doctor to keep him safe. That he would watch him over his "sleep". To make sure he wouldn't die and Murray failed to to that. And he failed to refuse to do it without the proper equipment to watch over him, which he, as a professional, should have done. And yes, using Propopfol to "sleep" is a quick fix and not properly addressing the issue and fixing it, which obviously would have required time and work. Maybe he was just desperate to get it done and have quick results and figured it would get him over the shows, where obviously he had a schedule to actually sleep as opposed to his regular life where it probably wouldn't matter when he gets to sleep. Obviously it helped him during the HIStory tour and didn't kill him then, so he just did it again. He spoke about how he had trouble during touring to get to sleep after the shows, how adrenaline would be high and he would just stay awake.

[Edited 1/31/21 16:33pm]

no he was responsible because he demanded the propofol, not because he trusted his insane doctor. To demand propofol from a doctor is euqualy insane. Seriously it's not normal to demand a surgical anesthesia and the fact that you only blame MJ for his trust kinda shows me how delusional his fans truly are. Seriously.....

Even though I blamed the doctor, I had to admit to myself that mj was responsible too, for wanting something that worked before, but was unorthodox. And that hurt like hell cause I felt heartbroken when he passed and it was avoidable and such a crazy way to die. Wrapping my head around how it happened wasn’t easy at all, and I’m thinking maybe the doctor from history era shouldn’t have introduced it to him either and was engaging in unethical practice even back then.
[Edited 1/31/21 16:52pm]

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

In '93. And he got clean. There is no reason to believe that he stayed addicted for the next 16 years. Regardless of what some people with agendas or no clue say. I'm not saying that he hadn't had episodes where he was on something, but just like Superstition says, the autopsy doesn't suggest constant abuse. And if constant drug use would have taken place, why did he die when he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before? If he was addicted to Propofol, why did he die exactly as he was getting ready for TII? Why didn't it happen before?? Maybe, because he just wasn't using Propofol and prescription drugs all the time? Maybe because he just used it while he had that certain doctor, which got hired for TII?!

And yes, he is responsible in the sense that he trusted his doctor to keep him safe. That he would watch him over his "sleep". To make sure he wouldn't die and Murray failed to to that. And he failed to refuse to do it without the proper equipment to watch over him, which he, as a professional, should have done. And yes, using Propopfol to "sleep" is a quick fix and not properly addressing the issue and fixing it, which obviously would have required time and work. Maybe he was just desperate to get it done and have quick results and figured it would get him over the shows, where obviously he had a schedule to actually sleep as opposed to his regular life where it probably wouldn't matter when he gets to sleep. Obviously it helped him during the HIStory tour and didn't kill him then, so he just did it again. He spoke about how he had trouble during touring to get to sleep after the shows, how adrenaline would be high and he would just stay awake.

[Edited 1/31/21 16:33pm]

no he was responsible because he demanded the propofol, not because he trusted his insane doctor. To demand propofol from a doctor is euqualy insane. Seriously it's not normal to demand a surgical anesthesia and the fact that you only blame MJ for his trust kinda shows me how delusional his fans truly are. Seriously.....

It's looking for an easy fix (with extreme measures) at best and desperate at worst. Nowhere did I ever say it was normal. But like I said before.... not sure why I'm repeating myself, as you chose to ignore it anyway, he did it before and it seems to have worked for him and gave him what he wanted. So he did it again. And that he died on the doctor's watch, is the doctor's responsibility, hence that's why they sent him to jail.

[Edited 1/31/21 17:00pm]

PatrickS77 said:

He must have had trust in it due to history era, it was wrong of the doctor to administer it back then too

alphastreet said:

and I’m thinking maybe the doctor from history era shouldn’t have introduced it to him either and was engaging in unethical practice even back then. [Edited 1/31/21 16:52pm]

That's for sure. These doctors should have flat out turned him down. Period. But luckily back then he had someone who knew what the fuck he was doing. That guy actually was an anesthesiologist.

PatrickS77 said:

He was still irresponsible for administering it outside a hospital room

PatrickS77 said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

no he was responsible because he demanded the propofol, not because he trusted his insane doctor. To demand propofol from a doctor is euqualy insane. Seriously it's not normal to demand a surgical anesthesia and the fact that you only blame MJ for his trust kinda shows me how delusional his fans truly are. Seriously.....

It's looking for an easy fix (with extreme measures) at best and desperate at worst. Nowhere did I ever say it was normal. But like I said before.... not sure why I'm repeating myself, as you chose to ignore it anyway, he did it before and it seems to have worked for him and gave him what he wanted. So he did it again. And that he died on the doctor's watch, is the doctor's responsibility, hence that's why they sent him to jail.

[Edited 1/31/21 17:00pm]

So just because he didn't die it was safe? It was still irresponsible back then. He could've died back then too and I guess he was just lucky, and the doctor was just lucky too. Again, HE decided to take propofol, so it's HIS responsibilty too that he died. Not only murrays. Seriously it's like letting your drunk friend drive you home and then you wonder why you were in an accident. The friend crashed the car, but you let him drive AND got involved in the accident as well. So it's partly your fault.

ThatWhiteDude said:

Hate to admit it, but I agree with most of this and I’m a fan. But it’s also important to keep in mind mj trusted it cause someone put it in his head that it was ok back then, though it never was. So I also blame the previous doctor

alphastreet said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

So just because he didn't die it was safe? It was still irresponsible back then. He could've died back then too and I guess he was just lucky, and the doctor was just lucky too. Again, HE decided to take propofol, so it's HIS responsibilty too that he died. Not only murrays. Seriously it's like letting your drunk friend drive you home and then you wonder why you were in an accident. The friend crashed the car, but you let him drive AND got involved in the accident as well. So it's partly your fault.

Hate to admit it, but I agree with most of this and I’m a fan. But it’s also important to keep in mind mj trusted it cause someone put it in his head that it was ok back then, though it never was. So I also blame the previous doctor

I agree, I understand that he trusted a doctor, and maybe they told him it's not more dangerous outside of a hospital. But, what I don't get is when some people only blame one person, when MJ should've been more responsible with his life.

ThatWhiteDude said:

Yes, though I was mad at the doctor it went deeper than that. Along with the sadness of his death was a lot of anger too cause it was preventable, and maybe mj should have known it was not ok outside a hospital. I guess this is my borderline talking, but I felt abandoned by him as a fan cause I almost saw him in concert, and was even upset he agreed to do concerts if he was having sleep problems. Was angry about his last few years and it exploded then, and I don’t care for his kids but even felt upset they lost a dad, mainly cause I lost mine too cause he doesn’t care about us enough to reach out.

alphastreet said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

I agree, I understand that he trusted a doctor, and maybe they told him it's not more dangerous outside of a hospital. But, what I don't get is when some people only blame one person, when MJ should've been more responsible with his life.

Yes, though I was mad at the doctor it went deeper than that. Along with the sadness of his death was a lot of anger too cause it was preventable, and maybe mj should have known it was not ok outside a hospital. I guess this is my borderline talking, but I felt abandoned by him as a fan cause I almost saw him in concert, and was even upset he agreed to do concerts if he was having sleep problems. Was angry about his last few years and it exploded then, and I don’t care for his kids but even felt upset they lost a dad, mainly cause I lost mine too cause he doesn’t care about us enough to reach out.

I totally understand your feelings. I felt like that about Prince too. Sure, there were enablers, but ultimately, Prince was responsible too. But it's easy for stars with their calibre to get what they want, so many people would've done anything for them, as long as the money was good. And it's sad for those who are left behind, fans and family. They are left to pick up the pieces. I understand their pain, MJ's and Prince's. You don't go to this lenghts just for fun, I get it. But there's a point in your life where you have to kick yourself in the ass and do something other than to destroy your life. Sadly, they didn't see how dangerous it was. Or maybe they didn't care.

The thought of them not caring hurts like hell, but learned to be resilient about it over the years. I also had to take a break from mj for some time cause it took a toll emotionally. Definitely hear you about being left to pick up the pieces of the chaos. I even thought their fame was a factor in getting their own way and I didn’t think mj had it in him to be that way, though I don’t want to attack his character for it either. He was after all, human

alphastreet said:

The thought of them not caring hurts like hell, but learned to be resilient about it over the years. I also had to take a break from mj for some time cause it took a toll emotionally. Definitely hear you about being left to pick up the pieces of the chaos. I even thought their fame was a factor in getting their own way and I didn’t think mj had it in him to be that way, though I don’t want to attack his character for it either. He was after all, human

Yes, and he unfortunately made a mistake that cost him his life and a lot of pain for others. I wish he valued himself more to not do the shows and just released one more album and retired, at least he would have still been here in one way or another
[Edited 1/31/21 18:37pm]

alphastreet said:

Yes, and he unfortunately made a mistake that cost him his life and a lot of pain for others. I wish he valued himself more to not do the shows and just released one more album and retired, at least he would have still been here in one way or another [Edited 1/31/21 18:37pm]

Or, don't do the concerts yet, and solve the insomnia problem and taking care of his mental health as well. Furthermore, I bet his fans wouldn't have been mad at him for making smaller concerts, like an unplugged or something like that. He didn't have to go full out anymore. There's nothing he had to prove to anyone at 50 years old.

ThatWhiteDude said:

The only honest Michael Jackson fan you'll come across is AlphaStreet one of the long time org users since she's not bias and not a nut job.

Just look at this Patrick77's profile picture and walk away. He'll always act like precious Michael Jackson couldn't do no wrong and he was God.
[Edited 1/31/21 19:03pm]

PatrickS77 said:

Jesus Christ the level of delusional is on point 🤣.

JayCrawford said:

I definitely have my opinions in spite of the love I have for mj, but I don’t think it’s cool to throw other fans under the bus in the process.

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

It's looking for an easy fix (with extreme measures) at best and desperate at worst. Nowhere did I ever say it was normal. But like I said before.... not sure why I'm repeating myself, as you chose to ignore it anyway, he did it before and it seems to have worked for him and gave him what he wanted. So he did it again. And that he died on the doctor's watch, is the doctor's responsibility, hence that's why they sent him to jail.

[Edited 1/31/21 17:00pm]

So just because he didn't die it was safe? It was still irresponsible back then. He could've died back then too and I guess he was just lucky, and the doctor was just lucky too. Again, HE decided to take propofol, so it's HIS responsibilty too that he died. Not only murrays. Seriously it's like letting your drunk friend drive you home and then you wonder why you were in an accident. The friend crashed the car, but you let him drive AND got involved in the accident as well. So it's partly your fault.

Well, obviously I’m not a doctor, but seeing that they did it for several months during the HIStory tour, with Michael out doing shows every second night and the doctor managed to not kill him along the way, then yes, I have to assume that he kept him safe. I never said that the whole act wasn't irresponsible. But it is even more irresponsible, when you don’t know what you’re doing and arguably an anesthesologist knows more about that practice than a kardiologist.


As for your analogy, it’s more like when I have a tumor and I ask my doctor if he can remove the tumor and he says yes and I then tell him to remove the tumor, it’s the doctor‘s responsibility to not botch up the operation. It may have been Michael’s responsibilty (and fault) to ask for the Propofol, but it was the doctor’s to keep him safe. And that earlier experience (and both doctors agreeing to do it) may have given Michael a false sense of safety and trust into the doctor.


I give you though, that the fact that Michael demanded it and wasn’t given it against his will, is the only thing that makes this somewhat "acceptable"/bearable. He played with fire (even though I’m not sure he saw it that way or to what extent he knew about the risks) and got burned and paid the price for it. But still, what transpired on June 25th was the doctor‘s responsibility. He shot him up with that shit and left him to die and opted to go make a phone call, instead of monitoring him, which was what he was supposed to do. Then it went on with delaying the emergency call. And after that he had the nerve to demand 100,000 $.

JayCrawford said:

Just look at this Patrick77's profile picture and walk away.

By all means, please do.

JayCrawford said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

no he was responsible because he demanded the propofol, not because he trusted his insane doctor. To demand propofol from a doctor is euqualy insane. Seriously it's not normal to demand a surgical anesthesia and the fact that you only blame MJ for his trust kinda shows me how delusional his fans truly are. Seriously.....

The only honest Michael Jackson fan you'll come across is AlphaStreet one of the long time org users since she's not bias and not a nut job. Just look at this Patrick77's profile picture and walk away. He'll always act like precious Michael Jackson couldn't do no wrong and he was God. [Edited 1/31/21 19:03pm]

Uh, yeah, I don't think you get to talk that much about others on here. You're one of the biggest trolls this forum has ever seen.

PatrickS77 said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

Well, obviously I’m not a doctor, but seeing that they did it for several months during the HIStory tour, with Michael out doing shows every second night and the doctor managed to not kill him along the way, then yes, I have to assume that he kept him safe. I never said that the whole act wasn't irresponsible. But it is even more irresponsible, when you don’t know what you’re doing and arguably an anesthesologist knows more about that practice than a kardiologist.


As for your analogy, it’s more like when I have a tumor and I ask my doctor if he can remove the tumor and he says yes and I then tell him to remove the tumor, it’s the doctor‘s responsibility to not botch up the operation. It may have been Michael’s responsibilty (and fault) to ask for the Propofol, but it was the doctor’s to keep him safe. And that earlier experience (and both doctors agreeing to do it) may have given Michael a false sense of safety and trust into the doctor.


I give you though, that the fact that Michael demanded it and wasn’t given it against his will, is the only thing that makes this somewhat "acceptable"/bearable. He played with fire (even though I’m not sure he saw it that way or to what extent he knew about the risks) and got burned and paid the price for it. But still, what transpired on June 25th was the doctor‘s responsibility. He shot him up with that shit and left him to die and opted to go make a phone call, instead of monitoring him, which was what he was supposed to do. Then it went on with delaying the emergency call. And after that he had the nerve to demand 100,000 $.

JayCrawford said:

Just look at this Patrick77's profile picture and walk away.

By all means, please do.

Nah, I agree to disagree, I think MJ and Murray are euqally responsible for his death. Your tumor anology is absolutely not comparable. Asking for a tumor to be removed is not the same as demanding a substance that is only used in a OR.

I still wonder who had the stupid idea of taking propofol in the first place

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

Nah, I agree to disagree, I think MJ and Murray are euqally responsible for his death. Your tumor anology is absolutely not comparable. Asking for a tumor to be removed is not the same as demanding a substance that is only used in a OR.

Yeah. You clearly don't WANT to get it and want to keep the blinders on and insist on your narrow minded view. So I save my energy now, but just to say that both was taking care of a problem, to which a doctor agreed to do it, thus making it his responsibilty. So the tumor analogy does apply. Period.

JayCrawford said:

If Michael Jackson didn't die in 2009, do you think he would have actually done 50 shows from 2009 - 2010? Also is it true that he was planning to retire from music after this?

I think he could easily manage 1 show a week.

PatrickS77 said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

Yeah. You clearly don't WANT to get it and want to keep the blinders on and insist on your narrow minded view. So I save my energy now, but just to say that both was taking care of a problem, to which a doctor agreed to do it, thus making it his responsibilty. So the tumor analogy does apply. Period.

ThatWhiteDude said:

PatrickS77 said:

Yeah. You clearly don't WANT to get it and want to keep the blinders on and insist on your narrow minded view. So I save my energy now, but just to say that both was taking care of a problem, to which a doctor agreed to do it, thus making it his responsibilty. So the tumor analogy does apply. Period.

Oh, that's where it's at now?

I can do that too: