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PrintableRODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Its a shame whatever happens wasn’t released, it seemed like an obvious hit for that time Yes, it was a rare track that when you hear it for the first time, it s like it was always there. I do think that Speechless could have been a huge, and a timeless hit too. I loved it the first time I listened to it, such as Butterflies, despite being disappointed overall the first listening of the album. . When Threatened ended, by my pseudonym, I thought " What? Is it really it? Four years for that rnb shit? " And I was only 15 years old. But I hoped for a pop/rock album such as History, even better than History. . Since I thought from Off The Wall, each MJ album was better than the last, it was for me an artist that bonafide with time. . Invincible was such an heartbreak... Rave was one of the first Prince album I listened to, so I have fond memories of it, better than Invincible, for which I had too much hopes. . But objectively, Invincible is far better than Rave. I think invincible had a lot of hype prior to release, hence the disappointment. I was expecting the pop/rock sound of history but came to love it anyways | |
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I think at the time and maybe even to this day, Invinvible was the most expensive album to be produced. Pretty, pretty stupid on the part of Mottola and Sony to just cut all promo and not even try to recoup the money they poured into the project. | |
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MotownSubdivision said: I think at the time and maybe even to this day, Invinvible was the most expensive album to be produced. Pretty, pretty stupid on the part of Mottola and Sony to just cut all promo and not even try to recoup the money they poured into the project. Yeah the project really had potential, and even though I remember yrmw being popular, I found that people didn’t know the album was already out | |
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MotownSubdivision said: I think at the time and maybe even to this day, Invinvible was the most expensive album to be produced. Pretty, pretty stupid on the part of Mottola and Sony to just cut all promo and not even try to recoup the money they poured into the project. Mottola tried, but MJ didn't want to shoot music videos and tour. . Don't forget Sony invested 1 million dollars in the music video of Cry, and in the end, Mottola was furious that MJ wasn't in it like it was supposed to. . The music video of YRMW cost 4 million dollars. . Sony was ready to invest 6 millions in Unbreakable, but MJ wasn't satisfied with Sony's concepts and fired two directors, after 9 months of development hell. . Sony pushed a lot for a Butterflies video and even a physical single release, but MJ wanted special effects and all, not a "cheap" Alicia Keys or Usher type of video. . |
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alphastreet said: MotownSubdivision said: I think at the time and maybe even to this day, Invinvible was the most expensive album to be produced. Pretty, pretty stupid on the part of Mottola and Sony to just cut all promo and not even try to recoup the money they poured into the project. Yeah the project really had potential, and even though I remember yrmw being popular, I found that people didn’t know the album was already out In France, I can tell you everybody knew it was out, and there was a Jackson hype like never. . YRMW was in France the first track to be #1 in airplay the week of release.Sadly it was out almost 6 week s later on single, way too late, because MJ pushed away the release of the album ( to record You are my Life!). . Despite that, YRMW was the first track ever to be #1 at the same time in airplay, singles Sales and club. . Invincible was the best selling album in a week of all time, 166.000 copies, beating the previous record from a french band, Noir Desir, by more than 40.000 copies. . Everybody wanted MJ to be the King of pop again, but soon it appeared MJ was invinsible : no tv shows, no music videos, no concerts. Cry was released without him being involved, and despite huge airplay in Europe, it killed the album sales before Christmas. |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: Yeah the project really had potential, and even though I remember yrmw being popular, I found that people didn’t know the album was already out In France, I can tell you everybody knew it was out, and there was a Jackson hype like never. . YRMW was in France the first track to be #1 in airplay the week of release.Sadly it was out almost 6 week s later on single, way too late, because MJ pushed away the release of the album ( to record You are my Life!). . Despite that, YRMW was the first track ever to be #1 at the same time in airplay, singles Sales and club. . Invincible was the best selling album in a week of all time, 166.000 copies, beating the previous record from a french band, Noir Desir, by more than 40.000 copies. . Everybody wanted MJ to be the King of pop again, but soon it appeared MJ was invinsible : no tv shows, no music videos, no concerts. Cry was released without him being involved, and despite huge airplay in Europe, it killed the album sales before Christmas. I remember seeing the French stats for invincible and yrmw, thanks for sharing your experience! I remember yrmw playing from cars and at clubs. I also think people were rooting for mj, but he and sony didn’t deliver. An unbreakable video would have been great to release, I think I remember there was a rumour of a heartbreaker video as well I do wish cry did better, I have a soft spot for that song despite it being written by r. kelly [Edited 12/1/20 15:20pm] | |
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alphastreet said: RODSERLING said: In France, I can tell you everybody knew it was out, and there was a Jackson hype like never. . YRMW was in France the first track to be #1 in airplay the week of release.Sadly it was out almost 6 week s later on single, way too late, because MJ pushed away the release of the album ( to record You are my Life!). . Despite that, YRMW was the first track ever to be #1 at the same time in airplay, singles Sales and club. . Invincible was the best selling album in a week of all time, 166.000 copies, beating the previous record from a french band, Noir Desir, by more than 40.000 copies. . Everybody wanted MJ to be the King of pop again, but soon it appeared MJ was invinsible : no tv shows, no music videos, no concerts. Cry was released without him being involved, and despite huge airplay in Europe, it killed the album sales before Christmas. I remember seeing the French stats for invincible and yrmw, thanks for sharing your experience! I remember yrmw playing from cars and at clubs. I also think people were rooting for mj, but he and sony didn’t deliver. An unbreakable video would have been great to release, I think I remember there was a rumour of a heartbreaker video as well I do wish cry did better, I have a soft spot for that song despite it being written by r. kelly [Edited 12/1/20 15:20pm] I liked Cry at first, because it was on radio and all, but now I hate it. . The verses are way too long, it would have worked better as a duet. . Sony thought it was the best idea ever to release it as a second single, just because it was an humanitarian single, after 911. . I really thought at the time it would have been top ten at least in France. I still think it could havehave been, if MJ appeared in the video like he was supposed to. . But it was his worst flop ever, after like 9 singles in a row in the top 5 in the UK, Cry peaked only at #25, while Invincible was already out of the top 75 album (!). . The worst was in Poland. Cry was #1 in airplay for 5 weeks in January of 2002. The single sales stood only one week in the top ten at #9, and the album was already out of the top 50, after only two weeks in the top 20 ! . Still, I have fond memories of ofbuying the Cry single the day of release, just to listen to the b-side Shout 4 times in a row. . If Cry were as successful as his airplay and sold the album, Sony Europe would have released a third single for sure, with or without MJ's involvement. [Edited 12/1/20 15:43pm] |
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Break Of Dawn was like fresh air and sunlight coming in to a stale & stuffy room. No coincidence then that Rodney Jerkins was not involved in that one. Easily the best track on Invincible to my ears. Doesn't come close to besting Dangerous (his best work, in my opinion). I am not in the mood to listen to Invincible completely ever. It just doesn't pass. I don't think I've ever listened to Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic completely in one sitting (and I don't own it) but Prince is always more musically adventurous than this. | |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: I remember seeing the French stats for invincible and yrmw, thanks for sharing your experience! I remember yrmw playing from cars and at clubs. I also think people were rooting for mj, but he and sony didn’t deliver. An unbreakable video would have been great to release, I think I remember there was a rumour of a heartbreaker video as well I do wish cry did better, I have a soft spot for that song despite it being written by r. kelly [Edited 12/1/20 15:20pm] I liked Cry at first, because it was on radio and all, but now I hate it. . The verses are way too long, it would have worked better as a duet. . Sony thought it was the best idea ever to release it as a second single, just because it was an humanitarian single, after 911. . I really thought at the time it would have been top ten at least in France. I still think it could havehave been, if MJ appeared in the video like he was supposed to. . But it was his worst flop ever, after like 9 singles in a row in the top 5 in the UK, Cry peaked only at #25, while Invincible was already out of the top 75 album (!). . The worst was in Poland. Cry was #1 in airplay for 5 weeks in January of 2002. The single sales stood only one week in the top ten at #9, and the album was already out of the top 50, after only two weeks in the top 20 ! . Still, I have fond memories of ofbuying the Cry single the day of release, just to listen to the b-side Shout 4 times in a row. . If Cry were as successful as his airplay and sold the album, Sony Europe would have released a third single for sure, with or without MJ's involvement. [Edited 12/1/20 15:43pm] I also love shout, the lyrics are great. It should have replaced privacy on the album, way more edgy and like his pop-rock sound | |
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Invincible opens very strong, but its kind of formulaic to me. Very little on it was INTERESTING to me. even though i LIKED most of the songs. but Whatever Happens was an intriguing curveball. Like predictable movies is something I abhor, similarly in music, surprise me. Prince always did that. I don't get the hate for Rave. I understand it "missed" for so many ppl, but like P said himself, his past success basically damned him and he was his own "competition", so by that time, he had several classic albums and eras that people were nostalgic about and preferred. But to my ears, there was LOTS to enjoy and hear for the first time. Chuck D is one of my favorite rappers so I even love Undisputed. It has some industrial style "heft" to me! TGRES is above average IMO (its NOT a ballad people, its called a mid-tempo track), Tangerine is a gem, Beautiful Strange is a GEM, Wherever U Go...should've been MASSIVE. The Sheryl Crow cover and the Stefani collabs were refreshing surprises, so I don't know what could've been done differently, but its no clunker for me. But "hits" are the barometer for many and Invicible had at least 2 of those. MJ concerned himself with such things, and P to a degree,but on his own terms, sometimes the public liked, sometimes they didn't. i love that he gave no fuqs and gave us such a diverse palate of music instead of chasing and trying to recreate his commerical high point (PR), unlike Michael with Thriller. So many songs are Thriller (Is It Scary, Threatened) or the femme fatale (Billie Jean) redux. Not on Invicible per se, but its the same "formula" conceptually. What if MJ tried a CONCEPT album....??? one can only imagine | |
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tump said: Break Of Dawn was like fresh air and sunlight coming in to a stale & stuffy room. No coincidence then that Rodney Jerkins was not involved in that one. Easily the best track on Invincible to my ears. Doesn't come close to besting Dangerous (his best work, in my opinion). I am not in the mood to listen to Invincible completely ever. It just doesn't pass. I don't think I've ever listened to Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic completely in one sitting (and I don't own it) but Prince is always more musically adventurous than this. So, in fact you never listened to both albums in their entirety. |
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datdude said: Invincible opens very strong, but its kind of formulaic to me. Very little on it was INTERESTING to me. even though i LIKED most of the songs. but Whatever Happens was an intriguing curveball. Like predictable movies is something I abhor, similarly in music, surprise me. Prince always did that. I don't get the hate for Rave. I understand it "missed" for so many ppl, but like P said himself, his past success basically damned him and he was his own "competition", so by that time, he had several classic albums and eras that people were nostalgic about and preferred. But to my ears, there was LOTS to enjoy and hear for the first time. Chuck D is one of my favorite rappers so I even love Undisputed. It has some industrial style "heft" to me! TGRES is above average IMO (its NOT a ballad people, its called a mid-tempo track), Tangerine is a gem, Beautiful Strange is a GEM, Wherever U Go...should've been MASSIVE. The Sheryl Crow cover and the Stefani collabs were refreshing surprises, so I don't know what could've been done differently, but its no clunker for me. But "hits" are the barometer for many and Invicible had at least 2 of those. MJ concerned himself with such things, and P to a degree,but on his own terms, sometimes the public liked, sometimes they didn't. i love that he gave no fuqs and gave us such a diverse palate of music instead of chasing and trying to recreate his commerical high point (PR), unlike Michael with Thriller. So many songs are Thriller (Is It Scary, Threatened) or the femme fatale (Billie Jean) redux. Not on Invicible per se, but its the same "formula" conceptually. What if MJ tried a CONCEPT album....??? one can only imagine History was a concept album... |
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ummm, ok. if u say so. I'd say it's a greatest hits pkg marketed AS history with a few new songs. what's the "concept" of those new songs? | |
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[Edited 12/2/20 9:10am] | |
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I don't like Rodney Jerkins' sound. Someone had to say it. Rave was fun because it was a mixed bag by design. if it was just a dream, call me a dreamer 2 |
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let me clarify: Both are not albums I can't just press PLAY and enjoy from start to finish. I have listened to both. Prince is always musically more interesting than MJ. He is a master musician and doesn't rely on a team of hit-makers to make stuff for him. It really shows.
MJ's Invincible came across as stale to me aside from one track: Break Of Dawn. That stood out to me and still does. One or two of the opening tracks wree OK, but just OK. 2000 Watts was OK, but faded out weirdly to me. Too many 'just ok' songs and several poor really formulaic ones. Whatever Happens is OK song that has its moments, but the 'conversation' at the end seems like it was tacked on for advertising reasons, just to let people know Carlos' involvement. Threatened is stale. Privacy is stale. Etc. I can't listen to the album entirely today...even though I have done it several times after buying it.
The whole Invincible album is werid and stale and unadventurous to me. Anyway, I can't listen to either album (MJ's or Prince's) in one sitting without wishing I can skip a track. They are far too inconsistent. Both have made albums that could be played from start to finish (in my opinion) without reaching for the controls. These are not those albums. | |
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StrangeButTrue said: I don't like Rodney Jerkins' sound. Someone had to say it. Rave was fun because it was a mixed bag by design. I think he did well, but wrote stronger melodies for other artists before invincible...and dare I say it, saved his best work for Brandy’s full moon | |
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Invincible had "You Are My Life, "Cry" and "Don't Walk Away"... Rave had "Wherever U go, Whatever U do"," Rave U2 The Joy Fantastic", "Eye Love U But I Don't Trust U Anymore"...
Both albums had gems...
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I haven't listened to either of these albums in years... "Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
https://youtu.be/CVwv9LZMah0 | |
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i need to give Full Moon a full listen. i think i've only heard the title track and like 1-2 others. i've heard Rodney did his thing on that, but like so many female artists apart from Janet and Sade for me, i only hear the singles or what becomes ubiquitous. and i actually LOVE Brandy's voice. | |
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Oh, boy. Yes, it shows in the sense that he has many clunkers and filler songs. Michael's recorded songs are mostly hits. And he showed enough times that he doesn't just rely on other people's songs. But if you can get songs that are great, why not use them instead of using mediocre own songs? I guess it's an ego thing. | |
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abraxas3121 said: Invincible had "You Are My Life, "Cry" and "Don't Walk Away"... Rave had "Wherever U go, Whatever U do"," Rave U2 The Joy Fantastic", "Eye Love U But I Don't Trust U Anymore"...
Both albums had gems...
To me the tracks you quoted are ultimate clunkers, not gems. |
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alphastreet said: StrangeButTrue said: I don't like Rodney Jerkins' sound. Someone had to say it. Rave was fun because it was a mixed bag by design. I think he did well, but wrote stronger melodies for other artists before invincible...and dare I say it, saved his best work for Brandy’s full moon I m not saying Invincible is a masterpiece ( I would rate it like 6 or 7/10) but Full Moon is a terrible album. What about us was ok, in Europe we had the great remix of Full Moon which replaced the terrible album version. Bit the rest of the album is garbage rnb IMHO. |
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RODSERLING said: alphastreet said: I think he did well, but wrote stronger melodies for other artists before invincible...and dare I say it, saved his best work for Brandy’s full moon I m not saying Invincible is a masterpiece ( I would rate it like 6 or 7/10) but Full Moon is a terrible album. What about us was ok, in Europe we had the great remix of Full Moon which replaced the terrible album version. Bit the rest of the album is garbage rnb IMHO. ^^^ It's Not Worth It with the MJ sample was a great track. But yeah, Rodneys work on Invincible was definitely better than his work on Full Moon. Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, You Rock My World and Threatened were all excellent tracks. |
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MattyJam said: RODSERLING said: I m not saying Invincible is a masterpiece ( I would rate it like 6 or 7/10) but Full Moon is a terrible album. What about us was ok, in Europe we had the great remix of Full Moon which replaced the terrible album version. Bit the rest of the album is garbage rnb IMHO. ^^^ It's Not Worth It with the MJ sample was a great track. But yeah, Rodneys work on Invincible was definitely better than his work on Full Moon. Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, You Rock My World and Threatened were all excellent tracks. Agree those tracks are the best he did. Invincible and privacy felt like filler | |
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MJ’s Invincible still sounds fresh and relevant. When I first heard “Butterflies”, I actually screamed. That song and Michael’s voice was/is pure bliss. Absolutely love that album. Still play it regularly. | |
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Free2BMe said: MJ’s Invincible still sounds fresh and relevant. When I first heard “Butterflies”, I actually screamed. That song and Michael’s voice was/is pure bliss. Absolutely love that album. Still play it regularly. I reacted similarly to whatever happens, that was a wow moment on invincible | |
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alphastreet said: Free2BMe said: MJ’s Invincible still sounds fresh and relevant. When I first heard “Butterflies”, I actually screamed. That song and Michael’s voice was/is pure bliss. Absolutely love that album. Still play it regularly. I reacted similarly to whatever happens, that was a wow moment on invincible There were a lot of Wow moments on Invincible. It’s a shame Mottola sabotaged the promotion. | |
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Free2BMe said: alphastreet said: I reacted similarly to whatever happens, that was a wow moment on invincible There were a lot of Wow moments on Invincible. It’s a shame Mottola sabotaged the promotion. Yeah definitely, it was so disappointing to watch some of the songs go by with no credit for how good they were | |
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