NIN also got more standard "hard rock" as time went on but I admit I haven't heard a full album in awhile.... but that was why I stopped bothering anyway.

MickyDolenz said:

Bell Biv DeVoe

I know I'm splitting hairs here. BBD had a unique sound, but a carefully crafted one to crossover. They said it themselves.


"hip-hop, smoothed out on the R&B tip with a pop feel — appeal — to it"

They were aiming to make pop records, and they succeeded. Wildly!

MickyDolenz said:

Run DMC

I agree. So many of hip hop's breathrough acts didn't compromise their sound. Run-DMC is one, NWA is another.

Nirvana is one that comes to mind.

namepeace said:

I know I'm splitting hairs here. BBD had a unique sound, but a carefully crafted one to crossover. They said it themselves.


"hip-hop, smoothed out on the R&B tip with a pop feel — appeal — to it"

They were aiming to make pop records, and they succeeded. Wildly!

There was no guarantee that they were going to get Top 40 pop airplay, when New Edition generally didn't. A lot of NEs stuff was more obviously pop sounding than BBD or Bobby Brown. Even the records Johnny Gill put out before NE had a more pop or adult contemporary sound than BBD although Johnny didn't really have a voice that was as crossover friendly. New Kids On The Block got the pop airplay. They basically had NE's sound since Maurice Starr produced the New Kids records. BBD were the members that not really many people was checking for. It's interesting that Ralph Tresvant, who was basically the main voice of NE, had the least amount of solo success.

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

I know I'm splitting hairs here. BBD had a unique sound, but a carefully crafted one to crossover. They said it themselves.


"hip-hop, smoothed out on the R&B tip with a pop feel — appeal — to it"

They were aiming to make pop records, and they succeeded. Wildly!

There was no guarantee that they were going to get Top 40 pop airplay, when New Edition generally didn't. A lot of NEs stuff was more obviously pop sounding than BBD or Bobby Brown. Even the records Johnny Gill put out before NE had a more pop or adult contemporary sound than BBD although Johnny didn't really have a voice that was as crossover friendly. New Kids On The Block got the pop airplay. They basically had NE's sound since Maurice Starr produced the New Kids records. BBD were the members that not really many people was checking for. It's interesting that Ralph Tresvant, who was basically the main voice of NE, had the least amount of solo success.

That's generally true, but the question is whether the artists crossed over without sacrificing their roots.

Originally R&B crooners, they went with more of a hip-hop sound and look, and calibrated the beats and rhymes with enough catchy sung hooks. They made classic songs of their era and they made their own lane.

That said,what you said shows that they adjusted their look and sound to make hits, and of course, as with all artists, there was no guarantee of success, but it worked.

namepeace said:

That's generally true, but the question is whether the artists crossed over without sacrificing their roots.

Originally R&B crooners, they went with more of a hip-hop sound and look, and calibrated the beats and rhymes with enough catchy sung hooks. They made classic songs of their era and they made their own lane.

That said,what you said shows that they adjusted their look and sound to make hits, and of course, as with all artists, there was no guarantee of success, but it worked.

New Edition had hip hop in their music since the Candy Girl album though. I don't think anybody was expecting a record by Ricky, Ronnie, & Mike to do anything much, let alone sell more than any New Edition album to date. That could be said for Bobby Brown too, since his first album King Of Stage did not do as well as Don't Be Cruel. NE did a lot of interviews around the time their biopic came out and in one of them, Ricky said that BBD exists because of Jam & Lewis. Ralph & Johnny was going to do solo albums at the time after the Heartbreak tour and so the other members were just going to wait for them to return to New Edition. Jimmy Jam told them that they should form a group instead of waiting. Ricky said that since nothing was expected of them, they decided to get their own sound & look. He also said that their label did not get the Poison song and wanted to release something else as their debut single, something that sounded more like NE. Probably one of the ballads. They had to fight to have it as a single

Wolfie87 said:

RJOrion said:

Wolfie87 said:

Public Enemy - It Takes A Nation To Hold Us Back. Almost Every Hip-Hop record from 1990-1992 had a PE sample in them. From LL Cool J all the way too Above The Law. And Kurt Cubains favourite record is said one. That album opened the floodgates. And today's so called rappers wouldn't be here without it. Goddamn, I would say it's unparalleled. [Edited 4/21/20 9:31am]

thats true about that album no doubt, but Public Enemy sold out when Chuck D fired Professor Griff and the S1W's after criticism from the the Anti Defamation League...that went against everything Public Enemy portrayed in their rhymes...real hiphop heads in New York (and elsewhere) couldnt believe it...still dont..that and the common knowledge that Flavor Flav was a functioning crackhead, caused PE to look like exposed fake revolutionaries, towards the end of their run...

And even if you don't think he sold out from the firing of Professor Griff, P.E. definitely sold out firing Flavor Flav for not going along with Chuck's plans to play a Bernie Sanders rally or whatever that nonsense was a couple months back.

Bomb Squad production was on another level though, that shit still hits hard in 2020.

[Edited 4/22/20 3:05am]

RJOrion said:

Wolfie87 said:

Wolfie87 said:

RJOrion said:

thats true about that album no doubt, but Public Enemy sold out when Chuck D fired Professor Griff and the S1W's after criticism from the the Anti Defamation League...that went against everything Public Enemy portrayed in their rhymes...real hiphop heads in New York (and elsewhere) couldnt believe it...still dont..that and the common knowledge that Flavor Flav was a functioning crackhead, caused PE to look like exposed fake revolutionaries, towards the end of their run...that said, Chuck D is maybe the most overlooked great MC in hiphop history...why he never gets mentioned with Nas, JayZ, Tupac, Eminem, Biggie in The GOAT conversations is a crime. Chuck D changed the way people rapped and he changed what they rapped about. with the legendary Marv Albert influenced (his words) vocal tone, he sounded different than any MC before him...a true original ...It Takes A Nation Of Millions STILL knocks, like its brand new...the beats and production changed hiphop [Edited 4/21/20 15:07pm]

KRS One, BDK, Rakim, Kool G Rap came out too close into PE's album. That's why Chuck D can be overlooked. But I agree, he IS the voice of a leader and a revolution!

PE's interpersonal stuff, and the individuals' changes over time, had very little if any impact on the content of the music, which was revolutionary.

Apart from that, I agree with you both -- Nation of Millions is IMO the greatest hip-hop album ever made. Their run from Yo! to Greatest Misses was one of the best in rap history. And Chuck D remains a top 5 MC in my book.

Did Public Enemy have pop radio hits though? I listened to Top 40 all the time and I never heard them played, not even the song with Anthrax. Then again I don't remember Anthrax on Top 40. These were the rap acts of the 1980s that I heard on Top 40:

Young MC

Fat Boys

DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince

Tone Loc

Vanilla Ice

Run DMC

MC Hammer

Salt n Pepa

Beastie Boys (mostly Fight For Your Right)

Betty Boo

LL Cool J

Falco

Whodini (Freaks Come Out At Night only)

Bobby Jimmy (Roaches only)

Mellow Man Ace (Mentirosa only)

Biz Markie (Just A Friend only)

If you count songs by Chaka Khan & Jody Watley, then Melle Mel & Rakim. Also there was Wham! Rap when the Perfect movie came out.

MickyDolenz said:

Wolfie87 said:

"Fight the Power" had to been in there somewhere. That is the song of Hip-Hop.

No, I did hear the Duran Duran remake of 911 Is A Joke a few times on Top 40, but that came out in the 1990s. The only radio stations I heard Public Enemy was the local R&B station and the mostly hip hop station. The hip hop station did play New Jack Swing singers like Al. B Sure! & Guy, but not the old style singers like Anita Baker & Luther Vandross.

You really think a pop station was going to play Fight The Power next to Debbie Gibson, Mike + The Mechanics, Janet Jackson, Bon Jovi, Erasure, & Taylor Dayne songs. It was DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince who was the first rap act to win a Grammy.

Wolfie87 said:

I just went to the Billboard site to look it up and Public Enemy had 2 songs hit the pop singles chart:

Can't Truss It reached #50 in 1991
Give It Up reached #33 in 1994

2 of their albums made the Top 10 on the pop albums chart though:

Apocalypse 91... Enemy Strikes Black - #4 (1991)
Fear Of A Black Planet - #10 (1990)
Greatest Misses - #13 (1992)
Muse Sick-N-Hour Mess Age - #14 (1994)
He Got Game Soundtrack - #26 (1998)
It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back - #42 (1988)
Yo! Bum Rush The Show - #125 (1988)

MC Hammer & Vanilla Ice both had albums that sold 10 million each in the USA. MC Hammer & Kid n Play had Saturday morning cartoon TV shows. The Fresh Prince & LL Cool J were both given sitcoms on NBC & The Fat Boys had a movie made by a major studio. Run DMC had a movie (Tougher Than Leather) too, but it flopped. None of that would have happened without these acts reaching the mainstream audience.

RJOrion said:

i have to agree with MickyDolenz.. as great as PE's impact on HipHop and music in general was, they were never a "crossover" act musically...and they didnt want to be, or have to be...

I don't recall any radio hits per se. I think they crossed over in the sense that they were embraced by white audiences at the height of their popularity. But crossover in a Hammer or even NWA sense? No, not at the level where their singles or albums were charting high.

MickyDolenz said:

I just went to the Billboard site to look it up and Public Enemy had 2 songs hit the pop singles chart:

Can't Truss It reached #50 in 1991
Give It Up reached #33 in 1994

2 of their albums made the Top 10 on the pop albums chart though:

Apocalypse 91... Enemy Strikes Black - #4 (1991)
Fear Of A Black Planet - #10 (1990)
Greatest Misses - #13 (1992)
Muse Sick-N-Hour Mess Age - #14 (1994)
He Got Game Soundtrack - #26 (1998)
It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back - #42 (1988)
Yo! Bum Rush The Show - #125 (1988)

MC Hammer & Vanilla Ice both had albums that sold 10 million each in the USA. MC Hammer & Kid n Play had Saturday morning cartoon TV shows. The Fresh Prince & LL Cool J were both given sitcoms on NBC & The Fat Boys had a movie made by a major studio. Run DMC had a movie (Tougher Than Leather) too, but it flopped. None of that would have happened without these acts reaching the mainstream audience.

That's interesting: 5 top 40 albums given their sound and content counts as crossover success.

There's no doubt the acts that had chart success were walking the trail others blazed before them. Even those with so-called "crossover" sounds that were villified for "selling out" primed the pump for groups who would have otherwise been underground to realize commercial success.

namepeace said:

That's interesting: 5 top 40 albums given their sound and content counts as crossover success.

In the early 1990s, those chanting monks albums were in the pop Top 10, but I didn't hear that on the radio. I did hear Egnima's Sadeness which had chanting on it. There's rock bands like Pink Floyd & Metallica who sold a lot of albums but had little pop radio airplay. Garth Brooks albums were constantly in the Top 10 during the 1990s, but I didn't hear him played on Top 40 radio either. Billy Ray Cyrus did with Achy Breaky Heart though. Garth is the only artist to have 7 diamond albums in the USA. The Beatles & Michael Jackson can't say that

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

That's interesting: 5 top 40 albums given their sound and content counts as crossover success.

In the early 1990s, those chanting monks albums were in the pop Top 10, but I didn't hear that on the radio. I did hear Egnima's Sadeness which had chanting on it. There's rock bands like Pink Floyd & Metallica who sold a lot of albums but had little pop radio airplay. Garth Brooks albums were constantly in the Top 10 during the 1990s, but I didn't hear him played on Top 40 radio either. Billy Ray Cyrus did with Achy Breaky Heart though. Garth is the only artist to have 7 diamond albums in the USA. The Beatles & Michael Jackson can't say that

Consider the question of the OP.

Crossover success need not be soilely defined by singles sales or airplay. Singles play drove album sales back at that time. PE didn't need singles to sell albums.

PE charted 5 albums in the top 40 -- not the rap top 40 or the "Black" top 40 -- without getting singles on the radio or otherwise gearing their sound to the radio. That's because, like rap artists of that time and for the next several decades, they moved as many if not more units in the suburbs as they did in the streets.

I'd say that being among the top album sellers without having to sacrifice their sound to get on the radio qualifies PE as having crossover success without having to sacrifice their roots. Like Metallica and Pink Floyd, PE enjoyed commercial success without diluting their sound.

[Edited 4/30/20 19:11pm]

RJOrion said:

Earth Wind & Fire

I disagree. You can tell with songs like "September" BoogieWonderland" & "After The Love has Gone" They were definitely aiming for a more "Pop" audience.

Thebigpill said:

1st one that comes 2 mind 4 me is Teena "Lady Tee" Marie. She crossed over BIG TIME with her "Starchild" album and its accompanying single, "Lovergirl." She stayed within the same formula for the followup, "Emerald City," but that one lacked a big single. She went back 2 her roots in '88 with "Naked To The World" and her first and only #1 R&B single, "Ooo La La La." <3