IfItAintToy said:

alphastreet said:

Doalwa said: That’s good to know I guess

I would challenge MJ fans to read MJ Facts. Just give it a try. Read a few articles there just to see what the other side says. I was in your position months ago and completely changed my mind. I know plenty of former MJ fanatics on twitter who now hate his guts. Just give the other side a look and decide for yourself. Why not? Even if just to dismiss it.

And you joined a Prince forum to express your sudden change of heart?

Free2BMe said:

Apparently yet another new edit of Leaving Neverland has appeared on the Channel 4 website. This edit has had the train station lie removed.

Maybe they should just excise all the lies and rename it "A collection of Drone Shots by Dan Reed".

jaawwnn said:

Has anyone on here had their mind changed by either documentary?

For the longest time, I thought, well if nothing happened to Jimmy Safechuck or Wade Robson, then I can believe the extortion plot from the 1990s allegations... then they spoke up.

I totally get what they are saying about not being in a place to accuse Michael as I am about the same age, and I could not imagine going against him in court around 2004. Even if we were all "grown", we weren't yet fathers or uncles, the type of maturation that changes how you judge other adults' actions in hindsight.

Wade seems sketchy to me, but for some reason I believe Jimmy, even with the train station memory and forgotten/messed-up details. I saw him hanging out with Michael and Lisa Marie holding their umbrella or something and he was still a minor. Seems like his brain is trying to protect him from those memories.

The "documentary" that started this thread doesn't offer anything interesting - instead of saying "Wade" they just try to describe him as some sort of liar or a list of despicable descriptors. I don't think anyone can prove him wrong, though I still have my doubts.

Cinny said:

jaawwnn said:

Has anyone on here had their mind changed by either documentary?

For the longest time, I thought, well if nothing happened to Jimmy Safechuck or Wade Robson, then I can believe the extortion plot from the 1990s allegations... then they spoke up.

I totally get what they are saying about not being in a place to accuse Michael as I am about the same age, and I could not imagine going against him in court around 2004. Even if we were all "grown", we weren't yet fathers or uncles, the type of maturation that changes how you judge other adults' actions in hindsight.

Wade seems sketchy to me, but for some reason I believe Jimmy, even with the train station memory and forgotten/messed-up details. I saw him hanging out with Michael and Lisa Marie holding their umbrella or something and he was still a minor. Seems like his brain is trying to protect him from those memories.

The "documentary" that started this thread doesn't offer anything interesting - instead of saying "Wade" they just try to describe him as some sort of liar or a list of despicable descriptors. I don't think anyone can prove him wrong, though I still have my doubts.

I'm probably in the same boat, or very similar. I'm no MJ stan, I think he was a sick, sick man who consistently treated people appallingly throughout his life and had little of the qualities his fans attribute to him... but even still, the actual sexual abuse stuff I do find hard to believe.

jaawwnn said:

Cinny said:

For the longest time, I thought, well if nothing happened to Jimmy Safechuck or Wade Robson, then I can believe the extortion plot from the 1990s allegations... then they spoke up.

I totally get what they are saying about not being in a place to accuse Michael as I am about the same age, and I could not imagine going against him in court around 2004. Even if we were all "grown", we weren't yet fathers or uncles, the type of maturation that changes how you judge other adults' actions in hindsight.

Wade seems sketchy to me, but for some reason I believe Jimmy, even with the train station memory and forgotten/messed-up details. I saw him hanging out with Michael and Lisa Marie holding their umbrella or something and he was still a minor. Seems like his brain is trying to protect him from those memories.

The "documentary" that started this thread doesn't offer anything interesting - instead of saying "Wade" they just try to describe him as some sort of liar or a list of despicable descriptors. I don't think anyone can prove him wrong, though I still have my doubts.

I'm probably in the same boat, or very similar. I'm no MJ stan, I think he was a sick, sick man who consistently treated people appallingly throughout his life and had little of the qualities his fans attribute to him... but even still, the actual sexual abuse stuff I do find hard to believe.

I find it APPAULING, and that's why it is hard to believe. I have all his music! I already heard of Jimmy and Wade back BEFORE the first allegations because of the commercials they made or general fan news.

Free2BMe said:

darlingnikkkki said:

You must have never lied in your life then tell the truth later on.

No. Not everyone is a lying piece of scum who only changes their story because they didn’t get a job. Robson has been singing Michael’s praises for TWO decades. He only had a sudden revelation when his ass was not hired for the Cirque job. He is no more a “victim” than I am, and I know I am not a victim. Robson’s wife has threatened to leave him if he can’t provide for family. Since no one in the dance community wants to hire him, he lies on MJ For money. He is suing MJs Estate for 1.5 billion. Why didn’t he claim this shit when Michael was alive? Why did he wait TEN years AFTER Michael died? The answer is Wade Robson is a desperate, broke, psychotic, lying bitch. Safechuck jumped on the money bandwagon because his family needs money, also. Pathetic pieces of snit, the whole lot of them. [Edited 8/21/19 3:24am]

There's no reason for you to be that mad and upset about this person that you probably doesn't even know personally or have never met in your life, and I'm pretty sure that the same goes for Michael Jackson, the entertainer! Michael is dead and has been for some time now, let it go, I'm pretty sure that he has!

looby said:

^^@automatic, that's very true indeed.

Cloudbuster said:

automatic said:

looby said:

There's no reason for you to be that mad and upset about this person that you probably doesn't even know personally or have never met in your life, and I'm pretty sure that the same goes for Michael Jackson, the entertainer! Michael is dead and has been for some time now, let it go, I'm pretty sure that he has!

That's the thing. Michael Jackson fans have never spent any time with the guy in real life. They really don't know what he's like once the camera is off. He projected an image like most celebrities. Pedophiles are usually the people you don't expect. They're usually involved in some way with children. Helping them or being a mentor. That's why families are shocked because it's usually a friend or family member who seems harmless and nice. [Edited 9/4/19 14:08pm]

Yes but the problem with this is that it becomes a licence to call anyone a pedophile, and the less evidence there is the stronger the case

[Edited 9/5/19 5:42am]

jaawwnn said:

IfItAintToy said:

jaawwnn said:

Yes but the problem with this is that it becomes a licence to call anyone an pedophile, and the less evidence there is the stronger the case

Are you suggesting there is little evidence against a man who slept literally thousands of times with children? Brett Barnes admitted to sleeping 400+ nights in a two-year period with MJ. He slept with him throughout the Dangerous tour. MJ slept 30 nights in a row with Jordan Chandler in the boy"s room in Evan's house. And the list goes on and on and on. MJ went out of his way to sleep with young boys one-on-one over and over again. Is this little evidence? Add to that the child erotica, the numerous payoffs, the multiple accusations, the blantant acquaintance molester behavior, the settlement 3 weeks after the penis description, the police being sure of his guilt (Bill Dworin, the lead investigator in the 93 case said the boy was very consistent and that the pics matched as did Carl Douglas, MJ's own lawyer) and I think you are not correct.

Let's not do this, i've read the evidence and the arguments as to what this and that means, and who is misinterpreting who, and under what circumstances, from both sides and I'm not convinced... I totally get why someone else might be though. We don't know, we'll probably never know. If you believe he's guilty i'm cool with that.

[Edited 9/5/19 6:01am]

jaawwnn said:

IfItAintToy said:

jaawwnn said: Are you suggesting there is little evidence against a man who slept literally thousands of times with children? Brett Barnes admitted to sleeping 400+ nights in a two-year period with MJ. He slept with him throughout the Dangerous tour. MJ slept 30 nights in a row with Jordan Chandler in the boy"s room in Evan's house. And the list goes on and on and on. MJ went out of his way to sleep with young boys one-on-one over and over again. Is this little evidence? Add to that the child erotica, the numerous payoffs, the multiple accusations, the blantant acquaintance molester behavior, the settlement 3 weeks after the penis description, the police being sure of his guilt (Bill Dworin, the lead investigator in the 93 case said the boy was very consistent and that the pics matched as did Carl Douglas, MJ's own lawyer) and I think you are not correct.

Let's not do this, i've read the evidence and the arguments as to what this and that means, and who is misinterpreting who, and under what circumstances, from both sides and I'm not convinced... I totally get why someone else might be though. We don't know, we'll probably never know. If you believe he's guilty i'm cool with that.

[Edited 9/5/19 6:01am]

Why shouldn't we do this? Why shouldn't we have an informing (and informed) debate about Michael Jackson's behavior with boys? Since this is a thread calling two of his accusers liars, since the platform is here already, why should we "not do this"? Should we allow Wade and Jimmy to be called liars without no counter-arguments? Should we pretend there is just "little evidence" as you suggested? Should we pretend there is no way to get closer to the truth when there clearly is? I'm not understanding your reasoning. What misunderstanding is there about a man who spent LITERALLY thousands of nights with boys? This isn't "tabloid junk", it's the complete truth. It's there in the court documents. It's there in the hotels registrations. It's there in the eye-witnesses' reports: Michael Jackson spent thousands of nights one-on-one with young boys. Joy Robson testified (it's in the court documents) she was ordered by MJ to "deliver" Wade to his room at 1h30 am immediately after the 93 accusations. If instead of Michael Jackson his name was John Smith, you would be calling him a pedophile at the top of your lungs. He had an obvious fixation on young boys. Fans can try putting lipstick on the pig, claim there were also girls (as if MJ ever gave them 1/1000 of the attention), pretend they believe he was a heterosexual male that also they "other" friends that close, and so on, but sooner or later reality will slap them in the face. Like it did me for I, just months ago, was a MJ fan.

[Edited 9/5/19 6:22am]

IfItAintToy said:

jaawwnn said:

Let's not do this, i've read the evidence and the arguments as to what this and that means, and who is misinterpreting who, and under what circumstances, from both sides and I'm not convinced... I totally get why someone else might be though. We don't know, we'll probably never know. If you believe he's guilty i'm cool with that.

[Edited 9/5/19 6:01am]

Why shouldn't we do this? Why shouldn't we have aninforming (and informed) debate about Michael Jackson's behavior with boys? Since this is a thread calling two of his accusers liars, since the platform is here already, why should he "not do this"? Should we allow Wade and Jimmy to be called liars without no counter-arguments? Should we pretend there is just "little evidence" as you suggested? Should we pretend there is no way to get closer to the truth when there clearly is? I'm not understanding your reasoning. What misunderstanding is there about a man who spent LITERALLY thousands of nights with boys? This isn't "tabloid junk", it's the complete truth. It's there in the court documents. It's there in the hotels registrations. It's there in the eye-witnesses' reports: Michael Jackson spent thousands of nights one-on-one with young boys. Joy Robson testified (it's in the court documents) she was ordered by MJ to "deliver" Wade to his room at 1h30 am immediately after the 93 accusations.

If instead of Michael Jackson his name was John Smith, you would be calling him a pedophile at the top of your lungs.

Actually my only real point was the opposite of this but feel free to keep ranting.

If you want to say he's guilty then go ahead, I don't mind. I've had the civilised debate about it on here before Mr. Joined: July 3rd 2019 and I don't particularly feel like having it again.

[Edited 9/5/19 6:26am]

So you deny MJ had a fixation on young boys? And say that the only reason we call him a pedophile is because he is MJ?

GOOD ONE MATE.

jaawwnn said:

GOOD ONE MATE.

That's OK. Sooner or later you will have a day where you're feeling bored and will muster the courage to go read the other side if just to pass the time. You will arrive at the conclusion everyone does. Actually, most of the other side is written and spread by ex-MJ fans who "saw the light". When that day comes you will laugh at your naivité and how blinded you were by MJ's star, because it is that obvious that MJ was an acquaintace child-molester. That's ok, I'll wait.

Your ability to hand me a new biography as a big Michael Jackson fan is truly a sign of your rapier-sharp intellect, clearly forged in the MJ wars of your own mind. Lucky for you i'm very bored in work.

IfItAintToy said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

IfItAintToy said:

That's OK. Sooner or later you will have a day where you're feeling bored and will muster the courage to go read the other side if just to pass the time. You will arrive at the conclusion everyone does. Actually, most of the other side is written and spread by ex-MJ fans who "saw the light". When that day comes you will laugh at your naivité and how blinded you were by MJ's star, because it is that obvious that MJ was an acquaintace child-molester. That's ok, I'll wait.

But you have no other argument than the one that his behavior was strange, which I agree with but that alone doesn't make him a pedophile 🤷‍♀️

Uh? Did you even read my posts?

Just some things off the top of my head.

Brett Barnes testified he slept over 400 nights with MJ during a two-year period. He was the "special friend" MJ brought to the Dangerous tour and they always slept together.

MJ would spend hours on the phone with Chandler and lock himself with the boy for days in his room. Jordan Chandler and MJ slept together 30 nights in a row in JC's room at his father's house as well as many other times. MJ left the house in the morning and would return when Jordan came back from school.

Joy Robson testified (it's in the court documents) she was ordered by MJ to "deliver" Wade to his room at 1h30 am immediately after the 93 accusations.

MJ had child erotica in his room at Neverland. He kept two books full of naked boys in a locked box in a secret room. Fans claim these books are legal and even that they are art. Indeed, the books are legal but, let's face it, they are for pedophiles by pedophiles. When in the hands of a man accused of child molestation they become Child Erotica.

Bill Dworin, the lead investigator in the 93 case said the boy was very consistent in his testimony and that the pics matched. He also said MJ had been tipped-off about the raiding and, perhaps because of it, there was a large portion of cassettes missing in a closet that was full of them.

Carl Douglas, MJ's 1993 lawyer along Johnnie Cochran, called the pics the "300-pound gorilla in the room" and that, because of it, they had no other choice but to settle.

Omer Bhatti lived with MJ from 1996 to 2009. During that period he was always by MJ's side. He was pretty much adopted. You can read his story in the link I provided: https://mjandboys.wordpre...1996-2009/

MJ had dozens of "special friends" who always shared his bed one-on-one.

[Edited 9/5/19 9:27am]

IfItAintToy said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

IfItAintToy said:

Uh? Did you even read my posts?

Just some things off the top of my head.

Brett Barnes testified he slept over 400 nights with MJ during a two-year period. He was the "special friend" MJ brought to the Dangerous tour and they always slept together.

MJ would spend hours on the phone with Chandler and lock himself with the boy for days in his room. Jordan Chandler and MJ slept together 30 nights in a row in JC's room at his father's house as well as many other times. MJ left the house in the morning and would return when Jordan came back from school.

Joy Robson testified (it's in the court documents) she was ordered by MJ to "deliver" Wade to his room at 1h30 am immediately after the 93 accusations.

MJ had child erotica in his room at Neverland. He kept two books full of naked boys in a locked box in a secret room. Fans claim these books are legal and even that they are art. Indeed, the books are legal but, let's face it, they are for pedophiles by pedophiles. When in the hands of a man accused of child molestation they become Child Erotica.

Bill Dworin, the lead investigator in the 93 case said the boy was very consistent in his testimony and that the pics matched. He also said MJ had been tipped-off about the raiding and, perhaps because of it, there was a large portion of cassettes missing in a closet that was full of them.

Carl Douglas, MJ's 1993 lawyer along Johnnie Cochran, called the pics the "300-pound gorilla in the room" and that, because of it, they had no other choice but to settle.

Omer Bhatti lived with MJ from 1996 to 2009. During that period he was always by MJ's side. He was pretty much adopted. You can read his story in the link I provided: https://mjandboys.wordpre...1996-2009/

MJ had dozens of "special friends" who always shared his bed one-on-one.

[Edited 9/5/19 9:27am]

Okay, I didn't know all of this... I also never read that MJ's lawyer saw the pics and said it matched.

You don't need to read. It's on youtube.

ThatWhiteDude said:

Mikado said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

Okay, I didn't know all of this... I also never read that MJ's lawyer saw the pics and said it matched.

Weird how the prosecution was so unconfident in the pictures that they waited to introduce them until the end of the 2005 trial, which the judge denied.

Weird how Mez was so confident about the pics he did everything in his power for them to remain a secret...even though that would mean MJ being vindicated in regard to the 93 case.

Weird how Sneddon (implicitly), Bill Dworin and Carl Douglas (MJ's own lawyer) said it matched.

Weird how MJ spent 5 months not particularly caring about Evan Chandler, throwing insignificant numbers at him (1M firstly and then 350000+ scripts later) but settled exactly three weeks after the strip search for 23M.

IfItAintToy said: