SoulAlive said:

MickyDolenz said:

How? The album sold multi-platinum, and the Dancing On The Ceiling song made it to #2 on the Hot 100 and #6 on the R&B chart. Deep River Woman even reached the Top 10 on the country charts, which was rare for any black singer not named Charley Pride. A few of the other songs were big hits too like Say You Say Me which was the theme song for a movie. If his goal was to have hits and sell a lot, then it was a success. I like the album. Like I mentioned, by the time Lionel came back in the 1990s, his style was not in anymore. The popularity of Billy Ocean had waned by the 1990s too.

Lionel lost me with that horrible album the title track (and its video) was a total embarrassment.....that song is the most soulless thing he ever did.On sappy,syrupy songs like "Ballerina Girl" and "Say You,Say Me",Lionel was quickly becoming the black Barry Manilow.The one good track,"Love Will Conquer All",was a ripoff of his own superior "Love Will Find A Way".

ya, that was a piece of shit, but the vid was cool how he was walking on ceilings and shit, that was cool. No comparison with any of his top notch shit, none. I still love him though and glad he's with us.

PeteSilas said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Lil Richard(although I did end up working with him once years after) drove past me going 100 mph! The only reason I caught up with him is because a red light caught him. It was no surprise to me, when not long after, he got into a bad car accident and smashed into a pole. He was a fearless driver.

that's my idol, i love little richard. He's still kicking and although he looks like a different man, he gives interviews still. the injuries from that crash are probably why he's in a wheelchair today.

He's actually lucky to be alive from that accident. His car was TOTALLY destroyed & was totaled. He was something else back then. The stories I could tell...

[Edited 4/15/19 15:49pm]

PeteSilas said:

but the vid was cool how he was walking on ceilings and shit, that was cool.

That was from a 1950s Fred Astaire movie though (Royal Wedding). Beyoncé's Single Ladies video came from a 1960s dance routine called Mexican Breakfast by Gwen Verdon and Janet Jackson's You Want This was from Faster Pussycat Kill! Kill!.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

that's my idol, i love little richard. He's still kicking and although he looks like a different man, he gives interviews still. the injuries from that crash are probably why he's in a wheelchair today.

He's actually lucky to be alive from that accident. His car was TOTALLY destroyed & was totaled. He was something else back then. The stories I could tell...

[Edited 4/15/19 15:49pm]

in the 80's? he'd quit drugs by then, which is when he had his crash. I'm sure he was still gay even though he preached against it and he was always a good man with a pentant for the boys. I befriended him on myspace in the early days of social media and he gave me his address, he probably wanted to have me service the king. I shoulda went but I woulda had to put the brakes on if he got any ideas, i'd punch him out.

SoulAlive said:

Lionel was quickly becoming the black Barry Manilow.

I like Barry's hits, so that is not a minus to me. One of my all time favorite songs is Bandstand Boogie. I never get tired of it. Barry was on Jimmy Fallon's show about a year ago and The Roots was playing behind him.

MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

but the vid was cool how he was walking on ceilings and shit, that was cool.

That was from a 1950s Fred Astaire movie though (Royal Wedding). Beyoncé's Single Ladies video came from a 1960s dance routine called Mexican Breakfast by Gwen Verdon and Janet Jackson's You Want This was from Faster Pussycat Kill! Kill!.

no way man, it was totally original, he even had a little hint of a MJ curl in his hair, he was so cool with that mule chin of his.

PeteSilas said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

He's actually lucky to be alive from that accident. His car was TOTALLY destroyed & was totaled. He was something else back then. The stories I could tell...

[Edited 4/15/19 15:49pm]

in the 80's? he'd quit drugs by then, which is when he had his crash. I'm sure he was still gay even though he preached against it and he was always a good man with a pentant for the boys. I befriended him on myspace in the early days of social media and he gave me his address, he probably wanted to have me service the king. I shoulda went but I woulda had to put the brakes on if he got any ideas, i'd punch him out.

I NEVER discuss anyones "private business" it's not my style. It'll stay in "The Vault" of my mind.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I NEVER discuss anyones "private business" it's not my style.

Isn't mentioning drag racing with Little Richard his private business?

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

in the 80's? he'd quit drugs by then, which is when he had his crash. I'm sure he was still gay even though he preached against it and he was always a good man with a pentant for the boys. I befriended him on myspace in the early days of social media and he gave me his address, he probably wanted to have me service the king. I shoulda went but I woulda had to put the brakes on if he got any ideas, i'd punch him out.

I NEVER discuss anyones "private business" it's not my style. It'll stay in "The Vault" of my mind.

you don't have to, the rumors are there, but the drugs were gone by that time.

MickyDolenz said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I NEVER discuss anyones "private business" it's not my style.

Isn't mentioning drag racing with Little Richard his private business?

ya, didn't you say he was liek a cross between liberace and aj foyt? i tought you said that.

PeteSilas said:

Mikado said:

PeteSilas said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

that's my idol, i love little richard. He's still kicking and although he looks like a different man, he gives interviews still. the injuries from that crash are probably why he's in a wheelchair today.

He's actually lucky to be alive from that accident. His car was TOTALLY destroyed & was totaled. He was something else back then. The stories I could tell...

[Edited 4/15/19 15:49pm]

in the 80's? he'd quit drugs by then, which is when he had his crash. I'm sure he was still gay even though he preached against it and he was always a good man with a pentant for the boys. I befriended him on myspace in the early days of social media and he gave me his address, he probably wanted to have me service the king. I shoulda went but I woulda had to put the brakes on if he got any ideas, i'd punch him out.

You missed an opportunity to suck the King of Rock's cock. What a shame.

There's a contestant on American Idol right now singing Sir Duke, so Stevie is making some money. Lionel is too, since he's a judge on the show.

MickyDolenz said:

There's a contestant on American Idol right now singing Sir Duke, so Stevie is making some money. Lionel is too, since he's a judge on the show.

that's one of my possible theories, they don't need to make great music anymore. like a fighter who's already won the title, they lose their edge. lionel is a real case, i can't think of one song i like as much as the all time ballads he wrote, one after another, in the 70's and 80's.

PeteSilas said:

i can't think of one song i like as much as the all time ballads he wrote, one after another, in the 70's and 80's.

What about the song that he did with Jam & Lewis?

MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

i can't think of one song i like as much as the all time ballads he wrote, one after another, in the 70's and 80's.

What about the song that he did with Jam & Lewis?

never heard it, i'll chekc it, either way, lionel is a songwriter/composer for the ages, people forget but they used to say that only paul mccartney had a greater string of number ones in those years. There is an interview where he's being asked about superstardom and it's pressures and he talks of how all three, he, mj and prince went through a period where they were in a tailspin, it sounded like he spoke with prince on the subject although i'm not sure, anyway, it was a creative lurch for him, difference was between prince and the others and just about anyone else was that he remained productive and prolific. Never understood why people tore apart his music, it was obvious he was always trying and there was always something worth listening to. If there weren't I would have stopped listening after a couple tries like I did with a lot of albums I couldn't get into.

PeteSilas said:

MickyDolenz said:

What about the song that he did with Jam & Lewis?

never heard it, i'll chekc it, either way, lionel is a songwriter/composer for the ages, people forget but they used to say that only paul mccartney had a greater string of number ones in those years. There is an interview where he's being asked about superstardom and it's pressures and he talks of how all three, he, mj and prince went through a period where they were in a tailspin, it sounded like he spoke with prince on the subject although i'm not sure, anyway, it was a creative lurch for him, difference was between prince and the others and just about anyone else was that he remained productive and prolific. Never understood why people tore apart his music, it was obvious he was always trying and there was always something worth listening to. If there weren't I would have stopped listening after a couple tries like I did with a lot of albums I couldn't get into.

PeteSilas said:

never heard it, i'll chekc it, either way, lionel is a songwriter/composer for the ages, people forget but they used to say that only paul mccartney had a greater string of number ones in those years. There is an interview where he's being asked about superstardom and it's pressures and he talks of how all three, he, mj and prince went through a period where they were in a tailspin, it sounded like he spoke with prince on the subject although i'm not sure, anyway, it was a creative lurch for him, difference was between prince and the others and just about anyone else was that he remained productive and prolific. Never understood why people tore apart his music, it was obvious he was always trying and there was always something worth listening to. If there weren't I would have stopped listening after a couple tries like I did with a lot of albums I couldn't get into.

But Mike's goal wasn't really to release records constantly. It was to sell the most copies, get as many hit singles as possible from one album, win awards, and to make fancy videos. The Thriller album was milked for 2 or 3 years straight and Bad about the same. Notice that The Jacksons' Victory album did not sell as well as Bad did, Epic did not spend the same amount of time promoting it. Mike & Jermaine did not even participate in the videos that were made for that album. Triumph did not sell as well as Off The Wall, nor were the singles as successful on the pop charts. If Mike just put out albums all the time, they would have cancelled each other out and would prevented them from reaching their highest sales potential. Mike wanted to get in the Guinness Book Of World Records or break Billboard chart records, which were probably not goals of Prince. Most of Prince's videos were not really interesting to watch and looked cheap. Mike's videos tended to be high budget and used whatever state of the art techniques that were available at the time of filming. Prince would not have made videos of himself running with the police/military of different cities or that HIStory album commercial or videos of fans screaming at him or fainting at concerts like those old Beatlemania clips. Prince did not show up for We Are The World either. I guess Sheila E was his stand in. He got a lot of negative press for it and Billy Crystal, Mr. T, Hulk Hogan & The Gap Band spoofed him. Both Lionel & Stevie sang on it and Lionel was the co-writer.

yes, i'm aware of that. Michaels grandiosity and perfectioinism stilted him, he only had what? 6 albums as an adult? Not a very big catalogue but that wasn't what I was referring to. I'm not sure what lionel was talking about either, but in my mind, for michael to keep his mind on writing music when he was going through the craziness of the child molestation would have had to be near impossible. He came out with history which was a strong album and blood on the dancefloor which was cut from the same cloth but it had to be hard to keep his mind on business. Listening to some of the podcasts on youtube, where people who worked closely with mike describe him is heartbreaking, the leaving neverland stuff really just brings up all the heartache of losing him again. But, I'm sure the drugs wouldn't have gotten control of him without all the stress. One guy said those kinds of things take years off your life, I'd have to agree.

MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

never heard it, i'll chekc it, either way, lionel is a songwriter/composer for the ages, people forget but they used to say that only paul mccartney had a greater string of number ones in those years. There is an interview where he's being asked about superstardom and it's pressures and he talks of how all three, he, mj and prince went through a period where they were in a tailspin, it sounded like he spoke with prince on the subject although i'm not sure, anyway, it was a creative lurch for him, difference was between prince and the others and just about anyone else was that he remained productive and prolific. Never understood why people tore apart his music, it was obvious he was always trying and there was always something worth listening to. If there weren't I would have stopped listening after a couple tries like I did with a lot of albums I couldn't get into.

But Mike's goal wasn't really to release records constantly. It was to sell the most copies, get as many hit singles as possible from one album, win awards, and to make fancy videos. The Thriller album was milked for 2 or 3 years straight and Bad about the same. Notice that The Jacksons' Victory album did not sell as well as Bad did, Epic did not spend the same amount of time promoting it. Mike & Jermaine did not even participate in the videos that were made for that album. Triumph did not sell as well as Off The Wall, nor were the singles as successful on the pop charts. If Mike just put out albums all the time, they would have cancelled each other out and would prevented them from reaching their highest sales potential. Mike wanted to get in the Guinness Book Of World Records or break Billboard chart records, which were probably not goals of Prince. Most of Prince's videos were not really interesting to watch and looked cheap. Mike's videos tended to be high budget and used whatever state of the art techniques that were available at the time of filming. Prince would not have made videos of himself running with the police/military of different cities or that HIStory album commercial or videos of fans screaming at him or fainting at concerts like those old Beatlemania clips. Prince did not show up for We Are The World either. I guess Sheila E was his stand in. He got a lot of negative press for it and Billy Crystal, Mr. T, Hulk Hogan & The Gap Band spoofed him. Both Lionel & Stevie sang on it and Lionel was the co-writer.

MickyDolenz said:

PeteSilas said:

never heard it, i'll chekc it, either way, lionel is a songwriter/composer for the ages, people forget but they used to say that only paul mccartney had a greater string of number ones in those years. There is an interview where he's being asked about superstardom and it's pressures and he talks of how all three, he, mj and prince went through a period where they were in a tailspin, it sounded like he spoke with prince on the subject although i'm not sure, anyway, it was a creative lurch for him, difference was between prince and the others and just about anyone else was that he remained productive and prolific. Never understood why people tore apart his music, it was obvious he was always trying and there was always something worth listening to. If there weren't I would have stopped listening after a couple tries like I did with a lot of albums I couldn't get into.

But Mike's goal wasn't really to release records constantly. It was to sell the most copies, get as many hit singles as possible from one album, win awards, and to make fancy videos. The Thriller album was milked for 2 or 3 years straight and Bad about the same. Notice that The Jacksons' Victory album did not sell as well as Bad did, Epic did not spend the same amount of time promoting it. Mike & Jermaine did not even participate in the videos that were made for that album. Triumph did not sell as well as Off The Wall, nor were the singles as successful on the pop charts. If Mike just put out albums all the time, they would have cancelled each other out and would prevented them from reaching their highest sales potential. Mike wanted to get in the Guinness Book Of World Records or break Billboard chart records, which were probably not goals of Prince. Most of Prince's videos were not really interesting to watch and looked cheap. Mike's videos tended to be high budget and used whatever state of the art techniques that were available at the time of filming. Prince would not have made videos of himself running with the police/military of different cities or that HIStory album commercial or videos of fans screaming at him or fainting at concerts like those old Beatlemania clips. Prince did not show up for We Are The World either. I guess Sheila E was his stand in. He got a lot of negative press for it and Billy Crystal, Mr. T, Hulk Hogan & The Gap Band spoofed him. Both Lionel & Stevie sang on it and Lionel was the co-writer.

This is actually a pretty interesting thing - from what I remember back in the day, everyone treated the Jacksons' Victory album as if it was a new Michael Jackson album (and, as a result, a lot of folks were dissapointed). I think the wait between Thriiller and Bad (about five years) actually did effect Bad's sales a bit. I imagine if he never was involved with the Victory debacle (and he didn't want to be), his followup to Thriller might have come a bit sooner (85 or 86, maybe).

[Edited 4/20/19 10:35am]

PeteSilas said:

yes, i'm aware of that. Michaels grandiosity and perfectioinism stilted him, he only had what? 6 albums as an adult? Not a very big catalogue but that wasn't what I was referring to. I'm not sure what lionel was talking about either, but in my mind, for michael to keep his mind on writing music when he was going through the craziness of the child molestation would have had to be near impossible. He came out with history which was a strong album and blood on the dancefloor which was cut from the same cloth but it had to be hard to keep his mind on business. Listening to some of the podcasts on youtube, where people who worked closely with mike describe him is heartbreaking, the leaving neverland stuff really just brings up all the heartache of losing him again. But, I'm sure the drugs wouldn't have gotten control of him without all the stress. One guy said those kinds of things take years off your life, I'd have to agree.

MickyDolenz said:

But Mike's goal wasn't really to release records constantly. It was to sell the most copies, get as many hit singles as possible from one album, win awards, and to make fancy videos. The Thriller album was milked for 2 or 3 years straight and Bad about the same. Notice that The Jacksons' Victory album did not sell as well as Bad did, Epic did not spend the same amount of time promoting it. Mike & Jermaine did not even participate in the videos that were made for that album. Triumph did not sell as well as Off The Wall, nor were the singles as successful on the pop charts. If Mike just put out albums all the time, they would have cancelled each other out and would prevented them from reaching their highest sales potential. Mike wanted to get in the Guinness Book Of World Records or break Billboard chart records, which were probably not goals of Prince. Most of Prince's videos were not really interesting to watch and looked cheap. Mike's videos tended to be high budget and used whatever state of the art techniques that were available at the time of filming. Prince would not have made videos of himself running with the police/military of different cities or that HIStory album commercial or videos of fans screaming at him or fainting at concerts like those old Beatlemania clips. Prince did not show up for We Are The World either. I guess Sheila E was his stand in. He got a lot of negative press for it and Billy Crystal, Mr. T, Hulk Hogan & The Gap Band spoofed him. Both Lionel & Stevie sang on it and Lionel was the co-writer.

Plus he wasn't that prolific.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

yes, i'm aware of that. Michaels grandiosity and perfectioinism stilted him, he only had what? 6 albums as an adult? Not a very big catalogue but that wasn't what I was referring to. I'm not sure what lionel was talking about either, but in my mind, for michael to keep his mind on writing music when he was going through the craziness of the child molestation would have had to be near impossible. He came out with history which was a strong album and blood on the dancefloor which was cut from the same cloth but it had to be hard to keep his mind on business. Listening to some of the podcasts on youtube, where people who worked closely with mike describe him is heartbreaking, the leaving neverland stuff really just brings up all the heartache of losing him again. But, I'm sure the drugs wouldn't have gotten control of him without all the stress. One guy said those kinds of things take years off your life, I'd have to agree.

Plus he wasn't that prolific.

do you understand what I'm saying though? I remember when bad took five years to come out after thriller, all the critics were saying that Michael just was clueless of how to follow up thriller and had a hard time figuring out his next move because he knew it wouldn't be as good. But..., that ended up just being michael when we have the hindsight that we do, he was perfectionistic, he seemed to work slowly and meticulously, totally the opposite of Prince, totally. Then, with the child molestation stuff, it had to make the creative process even worse, always having to go to court, meet with lawyers, wonder if your career is over and you're going to jail. that pretty much killed his creativity, he only had history and invincible after the beginning of the child molestation crap. I'm a musician too and I know how hard it is to get good work done with the world snatching at you for their little pieces, it's almost impossible, i haven't written a song in about thirteen years. I am doing good just to keep my playing and singing up to par. You know people, i've said it to non-musicians many times, the music doesn't write itself and it ain't as easy as it looks to write a good song, it's all consuming for me and requires maniacal obsession which is why i avoid doing it.

PeteSilas said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Plus he wasn't that prolific.

do you understand what I'm saying though? I remember when bad took five years to come out after thriller, all the critics were saying that Michael just was clueless of how to follow up thriller and had a hard time figuring out his next move because he knew it wouldn't be as good. But..., that ended up just being michael when we have the hindsight that we do, he was perfectionistic, he seemed to work slowly and meticulously, totally the opposite of Prince, totally. Then, with the child molestation stuff, it had to make the creative process even worse, always having to go to court, meet with lawyers, wonder if your career is over and you're going to jail. that pretty much killed his creativity, he only had history and invincible after the beginning of the child molestation crap. I'm a musician too and I know how hard it is to get good work done with the world snatching at you for their little pieces, it's almost impossible, i haven't written a song in about thirteen years. I am doing good just to keep my playing and singing up to par. You know people, i've said it to non-musicians many times, the music doesn't write itself and it ain't as easy as it looks to write a good song, it's all consuming for me and requires maniacal obsession which is why i avoid doing it.

I understand what you're saying. But when U are prolific U can write about anything at anytime. MJ did write briefly about his child molestation case in the 'History' album.But he did go through hell in both of those cases & i can understand having writers block after that. Plus the only reason he came back to attempt to do the O2 shows was because he was broke and wanted to beat Prince's record for selling out 21 shows. Which sadly he wasn't able to complete.

Prince lived & breathed music it was coming out of his pores. MJ didn't & was too worried about the sound of it. Mj wanted EVERYTHING to be to perfect. Prince(r.i.p.) just wanted to get it out of his head and move on to the next song. Which is why he has thousands of songs left in the vault now.

[Edited 4/20/19 16:35pm]

you're right and i didn't want to get too into the comparisons or bring this up; beethoven and mozart were opposites like that, beethoven was known to fight for every note whereas mozart wrote as soon as the music could be written down. Total opposites but they still got the same end result, great music. Personally, i've always been more like Michael, it's hard and grueling and not fun. I get nasty and people around me don't understand but they know something is wrong and they make little comments. I don't like being like that. I've heard fighters get cranky in training, and that's why they train alone a lot of the time, i wish I could work like that but I can't.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

do you understand what I'm saying though? I remember when bad took five years to come out after thriller, all the critics were saying that Michael just was clueless of how to follow up thriller and had a hard time figuring out his next move because he knew it wouldn't be as good. But..., that ended up just being michael when we have the hindsight that we do, he was perfectionistic, he seemed to work slowly and meticulously, totally the opposite of Prince, totally. Then, with the child molestation stuff, it had to make the creative process even worse, always having to go to court, meet with lawyers, wonder if your career is over and you're going to jail. that pretty much killed his creativity, he only had history and invincible after the beginning of the child molestation crap. I'm a musician too and I know how hard it is to get good work done with the world snatching at you for their little pieces, it's almost impossible, i haven't written a song in about thirteen years. I am doing good just to keep my playing and singing up to par. You know people, i've said it to non-musicians many times, the music doesn't write itself and it ain't as easy as it looks to write a good song, it's all consuming for me and requires maniacal obsession which is why i avoid doing it.

I understand what you're saying. But when U are prolific U can write about anything at anytime. MJ did write briefly about his child molestation case in the 'History' album.But he did go through hell in both of those cases & i can understand having writers block after that. Plus the only reason he came back to attempt to do the O2 shows was because he was broke and wanted to beat Prince's record for selling out 21 shows. Which sadly he wasn't able to complete.

Prince lived & breathed music it was coming out of his pores. MJ didn't & was too worried about the sound of it. Mj wanted EVERYTHING to be to perfect. Prince(r.i.p.) just wanted to get it out of his head and move on to the next song. Which is why he has thousands of songs left in the vault now.

Mikado said:

This is actually a pretty interesting thing - from what I remember back in the day, everyone treated the Jacksons' Victory album as if it was a new Michael Jackson album (and, as a result, a lot of folks were dissapointed). I think the wait between Thriiller and Bad (about five years) actually did effect Bad's sales a bit. I imagine if he never was involved with the Victory debacle (and he didn't want to be), his followup to Thriller might have come a bit sooner (85 or 86, maybe).

It didn't need to come out any sooner. Mike was overexposed anyway. He was on many magazine covers and The Jacksons was on often run Pepsi commercials. Mike had a doll & bubble gum cards, people were wearing Beat It & Thriller jackets and a glitter glove. Motown put out the Farewell My Summer Love album in 1984, which was then previously unreleased songs with then newly recorded music overdubbed over them. The title track became a minor hit single in the US. There was Say Say Say & Somebody's Watching Me. Then there was the duet with Jermaine Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'. It was not actually a single, but it did get radio airplay. State Of Shock was a big hit and Torture made it to the Top 20, and then USA For Africa. You might can count Eat It by Weird Al too. The 2 non singles from Thriller got a lot of airplay on R&B stations and I remember hearing Can't Get Outta The Rain too. The Lady In My Life still gets played every so often on the local adult R&B station to this day. Occasionally they play Baby Be Mine. His popularity got to the point that Louis Farrakhan said that he and Prince were bad role models for young Black men because of their "sissified" image. I guess Farrakhan changed his mind later since Mike had NOI bodyguards later in his life and Farrakhan had meetings with Mike. That might have something to do with Jermaine though since Jermaine is Muslim, but he's not Nation Of Islam. I remember before Bad came out, there was an article that said Mike was going to release an entire album of Beatles songs. I think a few songs were recorded, then that idea was abandoned. Come Together did come out on the Moonwalker home video though, and then later as a B-side on some singles from Dangerous.

Speaking of Louis Farrakhan, Stevie is on his 2018 box set.

MickyDolenz said:

Mikado said:

Right - that's why I said "if he never got involved with the Victory debacle". He didn't want to do a reunion with his brothers, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. If he stood his ground and never did Victory, I imagine the follow up to Thriller would have come sooner.

It couldn't have been that much earlier, since Quincy Jones was working on The Color Purple movie. I guess making a movie would have taken a lot of Quincy's time. Also what if Mike released the Beatles album instead of Bad? It's like around 1990, Mike was supposed to release a greatest hits called Decade. So that probably would have affected Dangerous.

Lionel talking about Stevie on Jimmy Kimmel (April 19, 2019)

he was overexposed, as was Prince, both had different strategies to cope. Michael waited, Prince released the about face ATWIAD which cut his audience into a 3rd. Michael was all about sales and would have never done that. Also, Michael was criticized for touring with the bros when everyone knew he was the star and no one wanted to see the others, but recently, I've thought of how different things would have turned out had he a. not crossed over/not catered to the rock audience, b. stayed with his brothers where he could have hidden a little better and been a little more sheltered. He was out there on his own for the most part. I know the bros/family were a mess but no more a mess than the society that went to lengths to destroy him.

Mikado said:

MickyDolenz said:

It didn't need to come out any sooner. Mike was overexposed anyway. He was on many magazine covers and The Jacksons was on often run Pepsi commercials. Mike had a doll & bubble gum cards, people were wearing Beat It & Thriller jackets and a glitter glove. Motown put out the Farewell My Summer Love album in 1984, which was then previously unreleased songs with then newly recorded music overdubbed over them. The title track became a minor hit single in the US. There was Say Say Say & Somebody's Watching Me. Then there was the duet with Jermaine Tell Me I'm Not Dreamin'. It was not actually a single, but it did get radio airplay. State Of Shock was a big hit and Torture made it to the Top 20, and then USA For Africa. You might can count Eat It by Weird Al too. The 2 non singles from Thriller got a lot of airplay on R&B stations and I remember hearing Can't Get Outta The Rain too. The Lady In My Life still gets played every so often on the local adult R&B station to this day. Occasionally they play Baby Be Mine. His popularity got to the point that Louis Farrakhan said that he and Prince were bad role models for young Black men because of their "sissified" image. I guess Farrakhan changed his mind later since Mike had NOI bodyguards later in his life and Farrakhan had meetings with Mike. That might have something to do with Jermaine though since Jermaine is Muslim, but he's not Nation Of Islam. I remember before Bad came out, there was an article that said Mike was going to release an entire album of Beatles songs. I think a few songs were recorded, then that idea was abandoned. Come Together did come out on the Moonwalker home video though, and then later as a B-side on some singles from Dangerous.

Right - that's why I said "if he never got involved with the Victory debacle". He didn't want to do a reunion with his brothers, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it. If he stood his ground and never did Victory, I imagine the follow up to Thriller would have come sooner.