jaawwnn said:

Cloudbuster said:

Of course you don't.

MJFacts. The site for those who desperately want MJ to be a paedophile.

So what is the defense against those books? They were planted there by his maid (there was something about her having a key wasn't there?) ? Or he just had them in a safe by his bed while his other books were elsewhere? This isn't a leading question, it's one of the issues I'm unsure about. The fact that they aren't technically illegal isn't enough to cut it for me but I accept that it's not necessarily proof either.

[Edited 3/7/19 9:22am]

You'd have to ask the dead man why a few of the thousands of books he owned contained some bizarre art.

Cloudbuster said:

jaawwnn said:

So what is the defense against those books? They were planted there by his maid (there was something about her having a key wasn't there?) ? Or he just had them in a safe by his bed while his other books were elsewhere? This isn't a leading question, it's one of the issues I'm unsure about. The fact that they aren't technically illegal isn't enough to cut it for me but I accept that it's not necessarily proof either.

[Edited 3/7/19 9:22am]

You'd have to ask the dead man why a few of the thousands of books he owned contained some bizarre art.

Why was it kept in a locked safe by his bed? I'm not out for his blood, maybe he kept 400 books in a locked safe by his bed. If you don't know that's ok.

https://twitter.com/MJJJu...2849771520


Hmmm.

jaawwnn said:

Cloudbuster said:

You'd have to ask the dead man why a few of the thousands of books he owned contained some bizarre art.

Why was it kept in a locked safe by his bed? I'm not out for his blood, maybe he kept 400 books in a locked safe by his bed. If you don't know that's ok.

You'd have to ask the dead man.

PatrickS77 said:

Cloudbuster said:

jaawwnn said:

Why was it kept in a locked safe by his bed? I'm not out for his blood, maybe he kept 400 books in a locked safe by his bed. If you don't know that's ok.

You'd have to ask the dead man.

Well it's good to know that there is in fact an endpoint when it comes to making excuses and it appears we found it.

Cloudbuster said:

https://twitter.com/MJJJu...2849771520


Hmmm.

All is see is the 2 men when they were very young little boys, in the presence of a grown man like Michael Jackson, and to me, that in itself is sad and very disturbing.

oceanblue said:

Cloudbuster said:

https://twitter.com/MJJJu...2849771520


Hmmm.

All is see is the 2 men when they were very young little boys, in the presence of a grown man like Michael Jackson, and to me, that in itself is sad and very disturbing.

All I see are two former friends of MJ who had nothing bad to say about him until they saw an easy way out of their financial woes. It's very sad and disturbing.

Cloudbuster said:

oceanblue said:

All is see is the 2 men when they were very young little boys, in the presence of a grown man like Michael Jackson, and to me, that in itself is sad and very disturbing.

All I see are two former friends of MJ who had nothing bad to say about him until they saw an easy way out of their financial woes. It's very sad and disturbing.

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

All I see are two former friends of MJ who had nothing bad to say about him until they saw an easy way out of their financial woes. It's very sad and disturbing.

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

Sad? Try criminal.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

All I see are two former friends of MJ who had nothing bad to say about him until they saw an easy way out of their financial woes. It's very sad and disturbing.

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Cloudbuster said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Nothing odd or wrong about keeping a 10 year old on the phone for hours? Nothing odd about sending dozens of fax notes a day to a 7 year old? Is this somehting most adults do? Come on. That is not normal adult behavior to prefer the exclusive company of small boys when you are in your 30s. While we cannot prove what the two men say is true - we can at least acknowledge that MJ's behavior was not healthy nor normal.

I wonder if there's been any news to bury this week.

https://uk.reuters.com/ar...KKCN1QL1LF

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Nothing odd or wrong about keeping a 10 year old on the phone for hours? Nothing odd about sending dozens of fax notes a day to a 7 year old? Is this somehting most adults do? Come on. That is not normal adult behavior to prefer the exclusive company of small boys when you are in your 30s. While we cannot prove what the two men say is true - we can at least acknowledge that MJ's behavior was not healthy nor normal.

None of that is news to us. Well done.

Isn't it interesting that so few are concerned about the motives of his accusers - they'd rather just roll on and on about stuff that eveyone has known for years. Have a blue tick and a gold star.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

All I see are two former friends of MJ who had nothing bad to say about him until they saw an easy way out of their financial woes. It's very sad and disturbing.

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

Exactly.

Cloudbuster said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Nothing odd or wrong about keeping a 10 year old on the phone for hours? Nothing odd about sending dozens of fax notes a day to a 7 year old? Is this somehting most adults do? Come on. That is not normal adult behavior to prefer the exclusive company of small boys when you are in your 30s. While we cannot prove what the two men say is true - we can at least acknowledge that MJ's behavior was not healthy nor normal.

None of that is news to us. Well done.

Isn't it interesting that so few are concerned about the motives of his accusers - they'd rather just roll on and on about stuff that eveyone has known for years. Have a blue tick and a gold star.

But you ignore the possibility that the accusers could be telling the truth. Denial of the act and defense of the abuser is something most child abuse victims do becasue they love their abusers and fear was instilled in them not to ever tell. But the mental and emotional damage eventually catches up to them. These two could have just dealt with it privatley in therapy which both did prior to the documentary but this notariety via the documentary, while upsettng MJ fans, is a good thing and helps others who may have expereinced this type of abuse seek help and feel less alone in their shame. It is a fact that 1 in 6 men experience sexual abuse as a child.

Cloudbuster said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Former friends who were 7 and 10 years old, respectively, at the height of their relationship with a man in his 30s.

That is sad.

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Wow, really?!!! I think those guys explained very well, the reasons why they remained friends with Michael, especially considering how they were very young kids who idolized him at the time. And what's the matter with you......"there's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages?" These boys were 7 and 9 I think, and Michael Jackson was a grown man! What grown up goes around just looking to befriend children, for whatever reason!??? That's just disturbing! So, here I am a full grown adult, let me go scrounge around at my local lower-middle school for 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 year olds to befriend.............GMAB!!!! That is just disgusting and disturbing, no matter how you try to spin it!

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Nothing odd or wrong about keeping a 10 year old on the phone for hours? Nothing odd about sending dozens of fax notes a day to a 7 year old? Is this somehting most adults do? Come on. That is not normal adult behavior to prefer the exclusive company of small boys when you are in your 30s. While we cannot prove what the two men say is true - we can at least acknowledge that MJ's behavior was not healthy nor normal.

I'm still in the processing stage with this film. I went into this with the mindset that these guys are liars out for money and MJ was innocent. I've always known some of his behavior was questionable (sleeping in bed with kids) but wrote it off as just part of his eccentricity and naivte'. I simply can no longer do that. Even putting the sexual abuse aside it's those smaller details that you mention that are just as disturbing and revealing. There's nothing violent or forceful in his approach, everything is loving and caring. These were more like full on relationships. Having understanding of that now, Robson defending MJ all of those years makes complete sense. You don't even fully realize/accept that it was abuse. It's all quite a mindfuck.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

None of that is news to us. Well done.

Isn't it interesting that so few are concerned about the motives of his accusers - they'd rather just roll on and on about stuff that eveyone has known for years. Have a blue tick and a gold star.

But you ignore the possibility that the accusers could be telling the truth. Denial of the act and defense of the abuser is something most child abuse victims do becasue they love their abusers and fear was instilled in them not to ever tell. But the mental and emotional damage eventually catches up to them. These two could have just dealt with it privatley in therapy which both did prior to the documentary but this notariety via the documentary, while upsettng MJ fans, is a good thing and helps others who may have expereinced this type of abuse seek help and feel less alone in their shame. It is a fact that 1 in 6 men experience sexual abuse as a child.

I was 1 of those 6 myself which is why I don't buy their "I didn't know it was abuse" line. I have worked with abused children, their behaviour is nothing like what I've seen of Wade and James.

But okay, let's assume that Wade is telling the truth. Then please explain this. http://dailymichael.com/l...l-all-book

If he's genuine then why the lies and games?

Tuls101 said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Nothing odd or wrong about keeping a 10 year old on the phone for hours? Nothing odd about sending dozens of fax notes a day to a 7 year old? Is this somehting most adults do? Come on. That is not normal adult behavior to prefer the exclusive company of small boys when you are in your 30s. While we cannot prove what the two men say is true - we can at least acknowledge that MJ's behavior was not healthy nor normal.

I'm still in the processing stage with this film. I went into this with the mindset that these guys are liars out for money and MJ was innocent. I've always known some of his behavior was questionable (sleeping in bed with kids) but wrote it off as just part of his eccentricity and naivte'. I simply can no longer do that. Even putting the sexual abuse aside it's those smaller details that you mention that are just as disturbing and revealing. There's nothing violent or forceful in his approach, everything is loving and caring. These were more like full on relationships. Having understanding of that now, Robson defending MJ all of those years makes complete sense. You don't even fully realize/accept that it was abuse. It's all quite a mindfuck.

I agree ^ and I also approached the doc with a similar perspective. These two men really loved MJ - he cultivated a relationship wiht each of them and their families. And I do not think MJ was forceful or violent either - he was a nice and gentle person. I do not think his intention was ever to harm these boys despite the fact that there is no avoiding it. The detailed accounts of affection and intimacy were what gave me pause and tilted my perspective as well.

I actually feel now more than ever that MJ was abused as a child beyond the known beatings that all of his siblings were subjected to by their father. MJ was a vastly complicated human being - immensely talented, developmentally arrested, and deeply sad. The whole thing is heartbreaking.

I think if anyone looks at this situation in a clear, unbiased manner, and places a normal, regular human being in place of Michael Jackson, the "larger than life celebrity" and sees the situation for what it is.....how can you not see how disturbing it is for a full grown man to befriend and have sleepovers with young children of the ages of 7, 10, etc? That is just sick, and unnatural behavior, no matter how you twist it, but because some are so infatuated with and idolized Michael Jackson, they're trying to convince others that see it for the sick, twisted, and disturbed it is, that's it's perfectly "ok" and that there was absolutely nothing wrong (just perfectly normal) with what Michael did........as Iyanla Vanzant says...."not on my watch!"

[Edited 3/7/19 12:10pm]

Cloudbuster said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

But you ignore the possibility that the accusers could be telling the truth. Denial of the act and defense of the abuser is something most child abuse victims do becasue they love their abusers and fear was instilled in them not to ever tell. But the mental and emotional damage eventually catches up to them. These two could have just dealt with it privatley in therapy which both did prior to the documentary but this notariety via the documentary, while upsettng MJ fans, is a good thing and helps others who may have expereinced this type of abuse seek help and feel less alone in their shame. It is a fact that 1 in 6 men experience sexual abuse as a child.

I was 1 of those 6 myself which is why I don't buy their "I didn't know it was abuse" line. I have worked with abused children, their behaviour is nothing like what I've seen of Wade and James.

But okay, let's assume that Wade is telling the truth. Then please explain this. http://dailymichael.com/l...l-all-book

If he's genuine then why the lies and games?

You appear to lack of compassion for them, that is your perogative. I have stated my perspective and I simply disagree with you. One of my closest friends is a PhD specializing in child psychology and treats abuse victims as part of her practice and she concurs that these men have exhibited behavior that is i line with these kinds of victims. I am not going to justify or defend anything Robson or Safecheck did or are doing outside of their admission that they were abused.

Robson is the boy who cried wolf? Ok. But that does not mean that the wolf did not exist.

oceanblue said:

I think if anyone looks at this situation in a clear, unbiased manner, and places a normal, regular human being in place of Michael Jackson, the "larger than life celebrity" and sees the situation for what it is.....how can you not see how disturbing it is for a full grown man to befriend and have sleepovers with young children of the ages of 7, 10, etc? That is just sick, and unnatural behavior, no matter how you twist it, but because some are so infatuated with and idolized Michael Jackson, they're trying to convince others that see it for the sick, twisted, and disturbed it is, that's it's perfectly "ok" and that there was absolutely nothing wrong (just perfectly normal) with what Michael did........as Iyanla Vanzant says...."not on my watch!"

[Edited 3/7/19 12:10pm]

That is a good point. If an ordinary man displayed the same behavior Jackson did he would be judged on that behavior and most would find it to be abnormal and uhealthy.

oceanblue said:

Cloudbuster said:

Who remained friends with him long after that. Not so sad really. There's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages.

Wow, really?!!! I think those guys explained very well, the reasons why they remained friends with Michael, especially considering how they were very young kids who idolized him at the time. And what's the matter with you......"there's nothing wrong with befriending people of all ages?" These boys were 7 and 9 I think, and Michael Jackson was a grown man! What grown up goes around just looking to befriend children, for whatever reason!??? That's just disturbing! So, here I am a full grown adult, let me go scrounge around at my local lower-middle school for 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 year olds to befriend.............GMAB!!!! That is just disgusting and disturbing, no matter how you try to spin it!

As far as I'm aware MJ didn't go around just looking to befriend children. He had friends of all ages. And people of all ages would stay at his home. Not just boys. But girls. And grown women. And grown men. But that ruins the narrative doesn't it and results in hysterical responses like yours.

DiminutiveRocker said:

Cloudbuster said:

I was 1 of those 6 myself which is why I don't buy their "I didn't know it was abuse" line. I have worked with abused children, their behaviour is nothing like what I've seen of Wade and James.

But okay, let's assume that Wade is telling the truth. Then please explain this. http://dailymichael.com/l...l-all-book

If he's genuine then why the lies and games?

You appear to lack of compassion for them, that is your perogative. I have stated my perspective and I simply disagree with you. One of my closest friends is a PhD specializing in child psychology and treats abuse victims as part of her practice and she concurs that these men have exhibited behavior that is i line with these kinds of victims. I am not going to justify or defend anything Robson or Safecheck did or are doing outside of their admission that they were abused.

Robson is the boy who cried wolf? Ok. But that does not mean that the wolf did not exist.

I'd have nothing but compassion for them if I thought they were genuine, but I haven't seen a single thing that suggests that they are.

And I'll say that about all of MJ's accusers. Every single one of them has been motivated by money. The biggest red flag that there is.

So yes, we'll agree to disagree.

oceanblue said:

DiminutiveRocker said:

Tuls101 said:

I'm still in the processing stage with this film. I went into this with the mindset that these guys are liars out for money and MJ was innocent. I've always known some of his behavior was questionable (sleeping in bed with kids) but wrote it off as just part of his eccentricity and naivte'. I simply can no longer do that. Even putting the sexual abuse aside it's those smaller details that you mention that are just as disturbing and revealing. There's nothing violent or forceful in his approach, everything is loving and caring. These were more like full on relationships. Having understanding of that now, Robson defending MJ all of those years makes complete sense. You don't even fully realize/accept that it was abuse. It's all quite a mindfuck.

I agree ^ and I also approached the doc with a similar perspective. These two men really loved MJ - he cultivated a relationship wiht each of them and their families. And I do not think MJ was forceful or violent either - he was a nice and gentle person. I do not think his intention was ever to harm these boys despite the fact that there is no avoiding it. The detailed accounts of affection and intimacy were what gave me pause and tilted my perspective as well.

I actually feel now more than ever that MJ was abused as a child beyond the known beatings that all of his siblings were subjected to by their father. MJ was a vastly complicated human being - immensely talented, developmentally arrested, and deeply sad. The whole thing is heartbreaking.

It's indeed very sad. I agree that the scope of the abuse MJ received as a child is probably a lot larger than we all thought. I had the same thoughts after seeing the doc. Strange how this film seems to be bringing clarity to a lot of cloudy areas that surrounded him during his life. There was definitely a mutual love between he and the boys. Goes to show just how deep rooted this all was. It's like he didn't fully realize what he was doing was actually abuse. That would make complete sense if he's a victim himself.

if he wanted a real docu he would have had more people, he would have had lie detector tests, he would have had psychologists, he was lazy, trying to make some come up by interviewing these "victims" and taking photo ops with them to put his ugly face out there. in this era, even if he didn't do it, people are going to believe.