[Edited 12/18/18 18:47pm]

mynameisnotsusan said:

Fuck her - she's an asshole

You had the gospel
When you were shackled to a tree
Now you've got your freedom
You sing for the money

what was her issue with Michael?

SoulAlive said:

what was her issue with Michael?

The song was directed at him and Lionel for selling out by doing commercials for Pepsi

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/19/arts/the-pop-life-pretenders-and-rock-s-direction.html

bboy87 said:

SoulAlive said:

what was her issue with Michael?

The song was directed at him and Lionel for selling out by doing commercials for Pepsi

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/19/arts/the-pop-life-pretenders-and-rock-s-direction.html

I never understood why some artists had a problem with this.It should be of no concern to Chrissy

mynameisnotsusan said:

Fuck her - she's an asshole

good song

for this song, the P in Pretenders stands for "paternalist." To put it mildly.

A valid critique that applies to many more than just Michael. The stars have every right to advertise, but I never get it that people who make so much money already would pick products that are so unhealthy so they can make millions more. At least Michael did a lot of other positive things.

Reeks of white privilidge/superiority, no matter how much I try to ignore it. And I'm a fan of The Pretenders.

Hamad said:

Reeks of white privilidge/superiority, no matter how much I try to ignore it. And I'm a fan of The Pretenders.

LOL yeah sure, because MJ was really downtrodden in 1986.

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

Reeks of white privilidge/superiority, no matter how much I try to ignore it. And I'm a fan of The Pretenders.

LOL yeah sure, because MJ was really downtrodden in 1986.

Missed the point my friend, but ok

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

LOL yeah sure, because MJ was really downtrodden in 1986.

Missed the point my friend, but ok

welllll.... maybe I did, but if your point is that white privilege exists and a white person has it by virtue of being white then it's not much of a point. I'm sure Michael could take anything Chrissie Hynde was going to sling at him in 1986 but her song raises a point that's worth pondering. It doesn't make his music any less good, at least not for me.

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

welllll.... maybe I did, but if your point is that white privilege exists and a white person has it by virtue of being white then it's not much of a point. I'm sure Michael could take anything Chrissie Hynde was going to sling at him in 1986 but her song raises a point that's worth pondering. It doesn't make his music any less good, at least not for me.

It’s not about Michael.

Not specifically, no.

But it's not about giving out to someone who is just trying to pair their rent either.

[Edited 1/2/19 11:13am]

bboy87 said:

You had the gospel
When you were shackled to a tree
Now you've got your freedom
You sing for the money

You Caught That Too?

jaawwnn said:

She tried to come for the King?

Hamad said:

Nvncible1 said:

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

Not specifically, no.

But it's not about giving out to someone who is just trying to pair their rent either.

[Edited 1/2/19 11:13am]

Ok I don’t know what that means. But my initial point still stands, which is: the song & the message that the singer tried to convey reeks of white privilege.

How so? I don't see it and i'm sick of trying to guess what you mean by that incredibly general statement.

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

Not specifically, no.

But it's not about giving out to someone who is just trying to pair their rent either.

[Edited 1/2/19 11:13am]

Ok I don’t know what that means. But my initial point still stands, which is: the song & the message that the singer tried to convey reeks of white privilege.

How so? I don't see it and i'm sick of trying to guess what you mean by that incredibly general statement.

Negative. You were not trying to understand or see my point, you walked into the conversation with an already set view hence the sarcastic remark (The fact that MJ wasn’t downtrodden is neither here nor there because if you are a PERSON OF COLOR in the US, you will get faced with racism in some form or another, status notwithstanding). Now, let’s examine the lyrics for a minute, while the initial message was critical of consumerism & catering to capitalism. The artist decided to specifically chastise black artists in every verse using different distinct themes of that culture (whether it’s directed at MJ or Lionel is beside the point here). Singling out an artist from a specific racial group as opposed to a general statement addressing ALL artists, despite the fact that they were not the only artists who relied on advertisments for personal gain raises a few questions. There were many white artists of high stature & influence that endorsed products as well, how come they were not addressed? How come they didn’t have their roots questioned in such disrespectful fashion? How come they weren’t asked or even - as the lyric showed - falsely accused & shamed of exploiting “poor African bastards in a ditch”? How come their chase after the American Dream doesn’t get labeled as “money hungry”?

The condescending & self righteous overtones from the lyrics convey a subtle expectation that only black artists “who once were once shackled to a tree & had the gospel” are expected to only “sing” and therefore somehow shouldn’t attempt to venture out & make a living for themselves “now you’ve got freedom, you sing for the money”. As far as I’m concerned, the song should’ve been titled “Stay in your lane, Negros!” because thats exactly what I got from the lyrics. I hope that clarifies my point

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

jaawwnn said:

Not specifically, no.

But it's not about giving out to someone who is just trying to pair their rent either.

[Edited 1/2/19 11:13am]

Ok I don’t know what that means. But my initial point still stands, which is: the song & the message that the singer tried to convey reeks of white privilege.

How so? I don't see it and i'm sick of trying to guess what you mean by that incredibly general statement.

Negative. You were not trying to understand or see my point, you walked into the conversation with an already set view hence the sarcastic remark (The fact that MJ wasn’t downtrodden is neither here nor there because if you are a PERSON OF COLOR in the US, you will get faced with racism in some form or another, status notwithstanding). Now, let’s examine the lyrics for a minute, while the initial message was critical of consumerism & catering to capitalism. The artist decided to specifically chastise black artists in every verse using different distinct themes of that culture (whether it’s directed at MJ or Lionel is beside the point here). Singling out an artist from a specific racial group as opposed to a general statement addressing ALL artists, despite the fact that they were not the only artists who relied on advertisments for personal gain raises a few questions. There were many white artists of high stature & influence that endorsed products as well, how come they were not addressed? How come they didn’t have their roots questioned in such disrespectful fashion? How come they weren’t asked or even - as the lyric showed - falsely accused & shamed of exploiting “poor African bastards in a ditch”? How come their chase after the American Dream doesn’t get labeled as “money hungry”?

The condescending & self righteous overtones from the lyrics convey a subtle expectation that only black artists “who once were once shackled to a tree & had the gospel” are expected to only “sing” and therefore somehow shouldn’t attempt to venture out & make a living for themselves “now you’ve got freedom, you sing for the money”. As far as I’m concerned, the song should’ve been titled “Stay in your lane, Negros!” because thats exactly what I got from the lyrics. I hope that clarifies my point

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

Negative. You were not trying to understand or see my point, you walked into the conversation with an already set view hence the sarcastic remark (The fact that MJ wasn’t downtrodden is neither here nor there because if you are a PERSON OF COLOR in the US, you will get faced with racism in some form or another, status notwithstanding). Now, let’s examine the lyrics for a minute, while the initial message was critical of consumerism & catering to capitalism. The artist decided to specifically chastise black artists in every verse using different distinct themes of that culture (whether it’s directed at MJ or Lionel is beside the point here). Singling out an artist from a specific racial group as opposed to a general statement addressing ALL artists, despite the fact that they were not the only artists who relied on advertisments for personal gain raises a few questions. There were many white artists of high stature & influence that endorsed products as well, how come they were not addressed? How come they didn’t have their roots questioned in such disrespectful fashion? How come they weren’t asked or even - as the lyric showed - falsely accused & shamed of exploiting “poor African bastards in a ditch”? How come their chase after the American Dream doesn’t get labeled as “money hungry”?

The condescending & self righteous overtones from the lyrics convey a subtle expectation that only black artists “who once were once shackled to a tree & had the gospel” are expected to only “sing” and therefore somehow shouldn’t attempt to venture out & make a living for themselves “now you’ve got freedom, you sing for the money”. As far as I’m concerned, the song should’ve been titled “Stay in your lane, Negros!” because thats exactly what I got from the lyrics. I hope that clarifies my point

Aha, interesting and well said! I dont think she's more exploring her own disappointment but its not exactly (White man) in Hammersmith Palais when it comes down to it lyrically, its clumsy stuff. And no, I wasn't wilfully misunderstanding you, i was just wondering what you were getting at.
[Edited 1/3/19 14:07pm]

Hamad said:

jNo worries, it’s the virtual world & communications can potentially suffer breakdown. Like I said, I’m a fan of The Pretenders but the fact that it is clumsy (like you pointed out), callous & most importantly false, kinda prove my gut feeling that it is stemmed from white privilege, because they simply can get away with it and sometimes even benefit from it. Had they ever been addressed about the song? If so, then not strong enough. For argument sake, let’s say the target subject in the song was Barbara Streisand & she somehow did a Pepsi commercial? Would it fly easily had she been reminded of the holocaust or the history behind Jews’ tribulations in the same strong judgemental language of the initial song? Could they afford being clumsy? Hell, would they even have a career after that? Lol something to think about.

I suppose i'm sympathetic to Chrissie Hynes because read any interview with her and she's mostly pissed off at anyone who makes rock and roll music who doesn't live like a rebel; she's not a theorist and I wouldn't want her to be. She was in trouble a few years back as well for saying something about women who dress in a certain way are asking for it. More clumsiness, but at least that one wasn't in song. Honestly, I wouldn't put it past her to write that Barbara Streisand song but I take your point, her career can and has survived these things.

I don’t know, the so-called self righteous “selling out” argument leaves such a bad taste on my mouth because it has always been historically selective and 9 times out of 10, it’s usually artists of color who happen to be at the receiving end of it, having to prove their integrity when they don’t have to. On top of co-existing in an already unforgiving & racist industry. [Edited 1/3/19 14:39pm]

Well i'll say i'm instinctively on her side because it does bug me when an artist sells out, and yeah taking the cash when you don't need it is selling out in my eyes. I didn't like when the Clash were used to sell jeans and I don't like when Prince is used to sell Capital One Credit. That's just me though. Besides, I still listen to all of them.

jaawwnn said:

Hamad said:

jNo worries, it’s the virtual world & communications can potentially suffer breakdown. Like I said, I’m a fan of The Pretenders but the fact that it is clumsy (like you pointed out), callous & most importantly false, kinda prove my gut feeling that it is stemmed from white privilege, because they simply can get away with it and sometimes even benefit from it. Had they ever been addressed about the song? If so, then not strong enough. For argument sake, let’s say the target subject in the song was Barbara Streisand & she somehow did a Pepsi commercial? Would it fly easily had she been reminded of the holocaust or the history behind Jews’ tribulations in the same strong judgemental language of the initial song? Could they afford being clumsy? Hell, would they even have a career after that? Lol something to think about.

I suppose i'm sympathetic to Chrissie Hynes because read any interview with her and she's mostly pissed off at anyone who makes rock and roll music who doesn't live like a rebel; she's not a theorist and I wouldn't want her to be. She was in trouble a few years back as well for saying something about women who dress in a certain way are asking for it. More clumsiness, but at least that one wasn't in song. Honestly, I wouldn't put it past her to write that Barbara Streisand song but I take your point, her career can and has survived these things.

I don’t know, the so-called self righteous “selling out” argument leaves such a bad taste on my mouth because it has always been historically selective and 9 times out of 10, it’s usually artists of color who happen to be at the receiving end of it, having to prove their integrity when they don’t have to. On top of co-existing in an already unforgiving & racist industry. [Edited 1/3/19 14:39pm]

Well i'll say i'm instinctively on her side because it does bug me when an artist sells out, and yeah taking the cash when you don't need it is selling out in my eyes. I didn't like when the Clash were used to sell jeans and I don't like when Prince is used to sell Capital One Credit. That's just me though. Besides, I still listen to all of them.

Chrissie has a long history of taking a rather self-righteous stance when dishing about popular music, other artists, and trends regardless of the race. Part of me rolls an eye when she does it but then another part of me respects that she is one of the few artists who seems to at least cares about selling out.

BobbyDrake said:

She tried to come for the King?

He was no KING in 1986 !