Found this on twitter

Do you guys agree with this statement? I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

HAPPYPERSON said:

I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

The Jacksons as a group never really crossed over, they were more successful on R&B radio. The later Jackson 5 records had less crossover as well. Many people think All I Do was original to Troop. It was the early J5 that had a lot of crossover. The Jacksons didn't even have a greatest hits until 2004, unless you count the 1981 live album. That's mainly why they don't get spoken about today in the mainstream music press, just like they're not that likely to write about the Isley Brothers or Teddy Pendergrass who were also more popular with the R&B audience than the pop audience. Today, other than maybe Shake Your Body, The Jacksons don't get played on oldies radio stations that focus on Top 40 pop hits. They do get airplay for other songs on Adult R&B stations. Others acts that did crossover like Earth Wind & Fire and JT Taylor era Kool & The Gang get quite a bit of airplay on pop oldies radio and are also often in movies, TV, and commercials. On Youtube, songs like September, Boggie Wonderland, & Celebration have over 100 million views, way more than any video by The Jacksons. The highest is Can You Feel It with 13 million and for the J5 - I Want You Back with 52 million.

HAPPYPERSON said:

Found this on twitter

Brandon Ousley @brandonousley

It's unfortunate that the artistic merit and impact of the Jacksons' later-period catalog (save 'Victory' and '2300 Jackson Street') has been dwarfed by Michael Jackson's solo career and the music press, who relegate their catalog as a mere footnote of Michael's solo career.

12

1:10 PM - Dec 17, 2018

Do you guys agree with this statement? I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

I agree with what you're saying. I mean that solo stuff blows away anything he ever did before in my opinion and of course the majority of people's opinions which can be proven by sales and even what you said about how the Jackson's feel dwarfed compared to MJ's solo career. I personally love the first 4 Jackson's albums and play them pretty often. I think those first 4 were solid! Triumph and Destiny were definitely the highlight of the 4 and I do wish that it was celebrated more as well.

Just for fun if I was going to rank my favorites counting MJ's Epic solo albums and the Jackson's combined it would go like this:

1. Dangerous

2. BAD

3. Thriller

4. HIStory (Disc 2)

5. Invincible

6. Triumph

7. Off The Wall

8. Destiny

9. The Jacksons

10. Goin Places

11. Victory

(I left out Blood On The Dance Floor because it was a 5 track EP with a bunch of remixes after that so I didn't feel it was fair to put it on a full albums list. I also left out 2300 Jackson Street cause MJ isn't really in it other than a cameo on the title track).

SoulAlive said:

Omey said:

HAPPYPERSON said:

Found this on twitter

Brandon Ousley @brandonousley

It's unfortunate that the artistic merit and impact of the Jacksons' later-period catalog (save 'Victory' and '2300 Jackson Street') has been dwarfed by Michael Jackson's solo career and the music press, who relegate their catalog as a mere footnote of Michael's solo career.

12

1:10 PM - Dec 17, 2018

Do you guys agree with this statement? I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

I agree with what you're saying. I mean that solo stuff blows away anything he ever did before in my opinion and of course the majority of people's opinions which can be proven by sales and even what you said about how the Jackson's feel dwarfed compared to MJ's solo career. I personally love the first 4 Jackson's albums and play them pretty often. I think those first 4 were solid! Triumph and Destiny were definitely the highlight of the 4 and I do wish that it was celebrated more as well.

Just for fun if I was going to rank my favorites counting MJ's Epic solo albums and the Jackson's combined it would go like this:

1. Dangerous

2. BAD

3. Thriller

4. HIStory (Disc 2)

5. Invincible

6. Triumph

7. Off The Wall

8. Destiny

9. The Jacksons

10. Goin Places

11. Victory

(I left out Blood On The Dance Floor because it was a 5 track EP with a bunch of remixes after that so I didn't feel it was fair to put it on a full albums list. I also left out 2300 Jackson Street cause MJ isn't really in it other than a cameo on the title track).

Ivincible over Destiny and Triumph? I might just cry

MickyDolenz said:

LightOfArt said:

Omey said:

I agree with what you're saying. I mean that solo stuff blows away anything he ever did before in my opinion and of course the majority of people's opinions which can be proven by sales and even what you said about how the Jackson's feel dwarfed compared to MJ's solo career. I personally love the first 4 Jackson's albums and play them pretty often. I think those first 4 were solid! Triumph and Destiny were definitely the highlight of the 4 and I do wish that it was celebrated more as well.

Just for fun if I was going to rank my favorites counting MJ's Epic solo albums and the Jackson's combined it would go like this:

1. Dangerous

2. BAD

3. Thriller

4. HIStory (Disc 2)

5. Invincible

6. Triumph

7. Off The Wall

8. Destiny

9. The Jacksons

10. Goin Places

11. Victory

(I left out Blood On The Dance Floor because it was a 5 track EP with a bunch of remixes after that so I didn't feel it was fair to put it on a full albums list. I also left out 2300 Jackson Street cause MJ isn't really in it other than a cameo on the title track).

Ivincible over Destiny and Triumph? I might just cry

.

.

1 - Thriller

2 - The Jackson 5

3 - MJ's solo career

4 - The Jacksons

Tpmp93 said:

The Jacksons ' Can You Feel It has just been used for a global campaign to promote Amazon.

That's today and that commercial does not use the actual Jacksons version, unlike the several commercials that has Let's Get It On by Marvin Gaye in them. When Can You Feel It originally came out it only got to #77 on the Hot 100. It did not cross over. Triumph was after the crossover success of the Off The Wall album too. In comparison, both Genesis & Phil Collins were mainstream popular in the 1980s and so was Mike + The Mechanics to a lesser extent. The only songs by The Jacksons (rather than the Jackson 5) that reached the pop Top 10 (in the USA) are Shake Your Body, Enjoy Yourself, & State Of Shock. Lovely One came close by reaching #12. Torture got to #17. None of their other singles made the Top 20.

[Edited 12/18/18 12:17pm]

The context is yesterday was the 40th anniversary of Destiny (released December 18, 1978) and we would love to talk about it as a group effort and an accomplishment for rhythm and blues, but it does get overshadowed when Mike is on lead vocals.

LightOfArt said:

Omey said:

I agree with what you're saying. I mean that solo stuff blows away anything he ever did before in my opinion and of course the majority of people's opinions which can be proven by sales and even what you said about how the Jackson's feel dwarfed compared to MJ's solo career. I personally love the first 4 Jackson's albums and play them pretty often. I think those first 4 were solid! Triumph and Destiny were definitely the highlight of the 4 and I do wish that it was celebrated more as well.

Just for fun if I was going to rank my favorites counting MJ's Epic solo albums and the Jackson's combined it would go like this:

1. Dangerous

2. BAD

3. Thriller

4. HIStory (Disc 2)

5. Invincible

6. Triumph

7. Off The Wall

8. Destiny

9. The Jacksons

10. Goin Places

11. Victory

(I left out Blood On The Dance Floor because it was a 5 track EP with a bunch of remixes after that so I didn't feel it was fair to put it on a full albums list. I also left out 2300 Jackson Street cause MJ isn't really in it other than a cameo on the title track).

Ivincible over Destiny and Triumph? I might just cry

MickyDolenz said:

HAPPYPERSON said:

I'm sad that Destiny & Triumph are not celebrated much

The Jacksons as a group never really crossed over,

rdhull said:

What's funny? It can clearly be seen that the audience during the Triumph Tour tended to be more black than the post-Thriller Victory Tour. A lot of the Victory audience weren't neccesarily going to see the brothers.

SoulAlive said:

Why is it so important for something to “cross over”? Frankie Beverly and Maze never really crossed over. Does that mean that they were not a great band?

If that's what you think, why are you so concerned about Rufus & Chaka Khan getting into the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame? The idea of wanting them to get inducted into a white rock museum is kinda the definition of crossing over. Not having a lot of crossover is why Rufus don't get as many fan votes as say Def Leppard or Bon Jovi. The people most interested in the Rock Hall is the mainstream audience, the readers of Rolling Stone magazine in particular and they are the ones who are more likely to know about voting. Mainstream popular acts from that time generally got more media coverage and are also more likely to have more film footage like concerts, TV show appearances, music videos, etc. than one mainly known to the R&B audience. Crossover acts made more money and it wasn't just with R&B acts. There was country crossover (Barbara Mandrell, Kenny Rogers, Alabama, Oak Ridge Boys) & jazz (George Benson, Al Jarreau, Herb Alpert, Grover Washington Jr). Notice Lionel Richie still has popular concerts and got a gig as a judge on American Idol when the Commodores are fairly obscure these days and they only had 1 big hit after Lionel left. Motown didn't give them the same attention as they did with Lionel. Will Smith got a TV show because Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince had crossover success. Without that, NBC probably wouldn't have given him a chance and Will would not be a big movie star now. Same with LL Cool J and In The House. The movie studio originally wanted the Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince to do the House Party movie, but they turned it down. It was the director Reginald Hudlin who wanted Kid n Play.

MickyDolenz said:

rdhull said:

What's funny? It can clearly be seen that the audience during the Triumph Tour tended to be more black than the post-Thriller Victory Tour.

That's not just the population of the city they were in when this snapshot was taken?

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

Tpmp93 said:

Furthermore, before Nielsen Soundscan was adopted in 1991, Hot 100 was undervaluing black-oriented hits, cause they focused only on a sample of mass markets and pop retailers, thus excluding black specialised retailers, and on a sample of Top 40 radios, excluding black oriented radios. It gives you a strong indication of how big a black act was during the 60s, 70s and 80s when they were topping the Hot 100 and Billboard Pop Charts. Finally, Can You Feel It was a smash internationally in 1981, topping national surveys in South Africa, Belgium, the Netherlands and going top 10 in UK, Australia and various other countries.

That would be irrelevant for the Hot 100 pop chart. I said the group was more popular on R&B radio than pop radio. Crossover means an act got Top 40 pop airplay. A crossover R&B act would be one that regularly got pop hits, not just 1 or 2, and they also sold more albums than just a R&B audience only act. As far as international I also stated this is in the USA where radio and audiences are more segregated. This was even more so after many Top 40 pop stations started playing fewer black R&B artists after the "disco sucks" riot, which was around the time period when Triumph was released. It was the era when there was light rock such as Christopher Cross & Air Supply getting big and also some country crossover when Urban Cowboy & Dukes Of Hazzard became really popular. Mike crossing over with Off The Wall didn't help him get nominated for Grammys in major pop categories rather than R&B categories. Jann Wenner also declined to give Mike a Rolling Stone cover but offered to write an article about him, there's an actual letter written. It's not a big secret that in the US, mainstream white publications usually didn't put non-white people on the covers during that time because they said those issues wouldn't sell as well. When MTV came about, they played few black artists in the beginning. It's likely no accident that The Girl Is Mine was released as the first single from Thriller as it had the sound of the light rock acts plus Paul McCartney was still really popular on the radio then.

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

Why is it so important for something to “cross over”? Frankie Beverly and Maze never really crossed over. Does that mean that they were not a great band?

If that's what you think, why are you so concerned about Rufus & Chaka Khan getting into the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame? The idea of wanting them to get inducted into a white rock museum is kinda the definition of crossing over. Not having a lot of crossover is why Rufus don't get as many fan votes as say Def Leppard or Bon Jovi. The people most interested in the Rock Hall is the mainstream audience, the readers of Rolling Stone magazine in particular and they are the ones who are more likely to know about voting. Mainstream popular acts from that time generally got more media coverage and are also more likely to have more film footage like concerts, TV show appearances, music videos, etc. than one mainly known to the R&B audience. Crossover acts made more money and it wasn't just with R&B acts. There was country crossover (Barbara Mandrell, Kenny Rogers, Alabama, Oak Ridge Boys) & jazz (George Benson, Al Jarreau, Herb Alpert, Grover Washington Jr). Notice Lionel Richie still has popular concerts and got a gig as a judge on American Idol when the Commodores are fairly obscure these days and they only had 1 big hit after Lionel left. Motown didn't give them the same attention as they did with Lionel. Will Smith got a TV show because Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince had crossover success. Without that, NBC probably wouldn't have given him a chance and Will would not be a big movie star now. Same with LL Cool J and In The House. The movie studio originally wanted the Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince to do the House Party movie, but they turned it down. It was the director Reginald Hudlin who wanted Kid n Play.

I just think you're too obsessed with "crossing over" and you undervalue the impact of success on the R&B charts.There are many R&B artists and bands who didn't crossover at all,but that doesn't take away anything from their music and their hit singles.Stop focusing only on the "pop" audiences.

SoulAlive said:

Stop focusing only on the "pop" audiences.

The OP made a post about The Jacksons not getting as much attention as Michael Jackson solo. The media is going to talk more about someone that is more mainstream known. Just like when a black artist passes away, such as Billy Preston, they mention him working with The Beatles & Rolling Stones. They don't mention him working with black performers. They mentioned B.B. King working with Eric Clapton & U2. B.B. doing a song with U2 is kinda minor to his career which began in the 1940s. I'm only stating a reason why Mike's music is given more attention than The Jacksons music. Like The Beatles are given more attention than Ringo Starr's solo career. One is bigger than the other.

Some things you just cant quantify.

MickyDolenz said:

SoulAlive said:

on a related note....I have been seeing a new commercial that effectively uses the Jacksons’ 1980 song “Can You Feel It”

I hate that commercial because of that person who tries too hard to be MJ

"Triump" is MY ALL TIME favorite The Jacksons album. Which included MY ALL TIME favorite MJ solo "This Place Hotel" it was so before it's time and underrated. "Off The Wall" overshadowed that album.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Jacksons as a group never really crossed over, they were more successful on R&B radio. The later Jackson 5 records had less crossover as well. Many people think All I Do was original to Troop. It was the early J5 that had a lot of crossover. The Jacksons didn't even have a greatest hits until 2004, unless you count the 1981 live album. That's mainly why they don't get spoken about today in the mainstream music press, just like they're not that likely to write about the Isley Brothers or Teddy Pendergrass who were also more popular with the R&B audience than the pop audience. Today, other than maybe Shake Your Body, The Jacksons don't get played on oldies radio stations that focus on Top 40 pop hits. They do get airplay for other songs on Adult R&B stations. Others acts that did crossover like Earth Wind & Fire and JT Taylor era Kool & The Gang get quite a bit of airplay on pop oldies radio and are also often in movies, TV, and commercials. On Youtube, songs like September, Boggie Wonderland, & Celebration have over 100 million views, way more than any video by The Jacksons. The highest is Can You Feel It with 13 million and for the J5 - I Want You Back with 52 million.

Saying the Jacksons between 1976-1984 didn't cross over is like saying no black bands or groups crossed over.

Exactly.

How come Springsteen never crossover?

His audience was all white....

I never cared 4 Michael Jackson. Maybe one song: "Remember The Time," but that's about it. I don't even own a single one of his albums either. Just not a fan. He's overrated in my opinion. Not a great vocalist by ANY means and just bores me 2 tears. I much prefer Janet over Michael ANY day. As 4 The Jacksons, again, just a couple of songs hit me: "Can You Feel It" and "Heartbreak Hotel," but that's it. I'd take The Isley Brothers over The Jacksons ANY DAY too. Crossover is a sales thing. Despite sales figures, there is some amazing music out there that just never saw the light of Radio endorsement. I won't get into those songs/performers where this is about MJ and his brothers, but really...no big deal 2 me. I'm happy that Amazon likes the first aforementioned song enough 2 use it though. It's a great song.

whitechocolatebrotha said:

I never cared 4 Michael Jackson.

.