Interesting, thanks!

The part about the song only having two chords, A major and B major, reminds me that "The Way You Make Me Feel" bounces mostly between the same two chords.

(Of course songs like "Mountains", "America" and "Hello" are basically one chord.)

It's a funk thing.

Effin millennials and their clueless explaineritis. This "analysis" is an embarrassment to white people. Reminds me of Patrick Bateman's music reviews in American Psycho.

Michael Jackson is massively overrated as an artist. He was an OK singer and a mediocre songwriter - Beat It for example sucks, whiny, childish, like many of his songs.

His producers are the real talents and visionaries behind his music; the Mizell Brothers for the early Jackson 5 hits, Quincy Jones for his 1980s heyday, several top producers Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins for the occassional half-decent track in the 1990s.

[Edited 9/11/18 10:55am]

modified said:

modified said:

Effin millennials and their clueless explaineritis. This "analysis" is an embarrassment to white people. Reminds me of Patrick Bateman's music reviews in American Psycho.

Michael Jackson is massively overrated as an artist. He was an OK singer and a mediocre songwriter - Beat It for example sucks, whiny, childish, like many of his songs.

His producers are the real talents and visionaries behind his music; the Mizell Brothers for the early Jackson 5 hits, Quincy Jones for his 1980s heyday, several top producers Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins for the occassional half-decent track in the 1990s.

[Edited 9/11/18 10:55am]

LMAO, you sound like a millenial yourself.

Anyone that was around and of age during the 60's through the 90's would never call Michael Jackson "overrated".

nextedition said:

modified said:

Effin millennials and their clueless explaineritis. This "analysis" is an embarrassment to white people. Reminds me of Patrick Bateman's music reviews in American Psycho.

Michael Jackson is massively overrated as an artist. He was an OK singer and a mediocre songwriter - Beat It for example sucks, whiny, childish, like many of his songs.

His producers are the real talents and visionaries behind his music; the Mizell Brothers for the early Jackson 5 hits, Quincy Jones for his 1980s heyday, several top producers Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins for the occassional half-decent track in the 1990s.

[Edited 9/11/18 10:55am]

I think you are forgetting the big picture. All the elements combined make it more than the song on itself. First of all mj wrote the songs himself, the producers didnt. Besides that its his vocal performance. I never understand why people make the producer so important. If that was the case, quincy jones would have been much bigger than mj...but he wasnt. You know why? Because michael jackson made the song, not the otherway around.

and not only that. If the producers were the real talents, who's responsible for Destiny and Triumph?

Oh yeah, Michael Jackson and his brothers

Giving all the credit to the producers for his success was and always will be a load of BS

[Edited 9/11/18 16:32pm]

I won't even begin 2 tell u how off this "analysis" on the music actually was.

Shake your body down... and Dont stop till... are to me the same song, really, until today i have troubles to get them out of each other. But i love them both to death.

TheFman said:

Shake your body down... and Dont stop till... are to me the same song, really, until today i have troubles to get them out of each other. But i love them both to death.

And I think MJ said as much in Moonwalker if memory serves. But the piano hook on "Shake Your Body", and the unusual drum pattern trumps "Don't Stop" by a country mile, IMO.

TrivialPursuit said:

modified said:

modified said:

modified said:

chrispsyaph said:

modified said:

Effin millennials and their clueless explaineritis. This "analysis" is an embarrassment to white people. Reminds me of Patrick Bateman's music reviews in American Psycho.

Michael Jackson is massively overrated as an artist. He was an OK singer and a mediocre songwriter - Beat It for example sucks, whiny, childish, like many of his songs.

His producers are the real talents and visionaries behind his music; the Mizell Brothers for the early Jackson 5 hits, Quincy Jones for his 1980s heyday, several top producers Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins for the occassional half-decent track in the 1990s.

[Edited 9/11/18 10:55am]

Back when okp was more heavily visited, user Scorpion posted this, which really opened my eyes to MJ as an artist et al http://board.okayplayer.c...rch#113583 “Does Thriller have any artistic merit“ >you said he achieved all his Artistic goals. I asked you to >point 'em out. while we all might be sick of hearing it and while it may not be as heavy as a What's Going On or Innervisions...the fact is many records we regard as "art" dont have the sociological or spiritual depth of those records... it would be easy to say that the work of Leroy Burgess or even James Brown is fluff based on the subject matter and dismiss it as not being artistic..which is in fact what mainstream music press does to Black music as a whole...and I have a problem with that... it would be easy to say that I Want You is just a record abt being horny just the same as a Jodeci record is.... now as far as Thriller is concerned, it is an artistic as well as a commercial landmark for these reasons: A) you said in another post that you do not regard MJ as a songwriter or producer...which is unfair because he CLEARLY does both...as far as his first 2 albums w/Q.....people tend to overestimate Q's role...they tend to think that without a producer at the helm, Mike is helpless...it was Mike(w/the help of Randy Jackson) who created the the Jackson sound....it wasnt Jackie, Tito, or Marlon....and you see how well Jermaine faired on his own.... the the biggest issue that led J5 to leave Motown was lack of creative control....Mike was tired of being a singing puppet...he wanted his freedom in the studio... CBS was unsure and made the group do two albums w/Philly Intl...after that it was time to put up or shut up... so Mike and the boys got in the studio....CBS sent some studio pros in to make sure the shit didnt go wrong....the result was the Destiny album...the album that put them back on top.... with the exception of Blame It On The Boogie, ya boy wrote every song on that record... he wanted to distance himself from his family and create a new sound for himself....since he'd already lent his sound to the family brand he brought in Q.... NOBODY else wanted Q...the word was that he was too old, that his track record in pop was unproven...look at the facts....before OTW and Thriller, Q was known as a bandleader and film composer, NOT a pop hitmaker....he'd had success w/the Brojays but that's it...the last pop hit that he was responsible for before that was It's My Party by Leslie Gore.... if you hit you tube and listen to the demos that Mike brought Q, you will see that very little is different from the album versions... matter of fact, here ya go: Dont Stop demo: http://www.youtube.com/wa...CWJfzH6FDY Working Day and Night demo: http://www.youtube.com/wa...51jUmABMlc let's go to the Thriller demos.... The Girl Is Mine demo 1: http://www.youtube.com/wa...tXxORezhpg Girl Is Mine studio demo 2: http://www.youtube.com/wa...WUgNAAfcfU Billie Jean demo: http://www.youtube.com/wa...E_1eYWx4fM so...my point...is that Mike created these albums from his own vision....he hired Quincy for a)legitimacy and 2)to run the studio 3) for his connections 4)quality control so what you hear is his vision not Quincy's...so from an artistic standpoint, he didnt just sit around and sing what Quincy put in front of him....he knew what he wanted and hired Q to translate.... after OTW, Mike went and cranked out another Jacksons album, Triumph...where he wrote every song except two... so w.out Master Quincy, Mike was responsible for: Shake Your Body Heartbreak Hotel Lovely One Can You Feel It Walk Right Now Things I Do For You ...and the remaining songs on both Jacksons albums of that period... but the music snobs like to think that Maestro Quincy sat Green Mike down and told him what to do....we can also add the folks that think Rod Temperton wrote every song on those two albums...and that's the reason why those records came out the way they did... Mike created those albums from his own creative muse, so artistically for him, that's a W.... B) as far as Thriller specifically...Mike did something that no one else had done....he created the musical bridge for mainstream music from the 70's to the 80's...he was the cat who survived the 70's and led the way to he 80's, where most other 70's cats were tryna figure out what to do next...most of them were doing disco knock-offs and praying for their survival... people glaze over it now...but what soul/R&B figure could create a hit rock record that was embraced across the board...AND considered authentic by the rock audience?(the snobs may have been pissed off, but they werent the ones buying the records)...what soul/R&B cat was collaborating with Van Halen....and have it WORK? it wasnt Prince....w/out Beat It, could you have a Let's Go Crazy? what other soul/R&B cat could get one of the Beatles on Black radio in the 80's? what soul/R&B cat would get Vincent Price to drop spoken word in the middle a funk/R&B cut cum horror movie? who was else at the time was incorporating African chants and percussion at a time when everyone was whitening it up sonically(including MJ)...and who would reference Soul Makossa in the 80's? listen to the fact that a Black artist who was considered strictly soul/R&B decided to do a stylistic tour de force in one album when it hadnt been done before... Thriller had: Funk straight R&B Quiet Storm MOR Pop Rock ...all in one album by a Black aritst when such a thing was not only unheard of but frowned upon..... futhermore, on Thriller he spoke abt teen preganancy, gang violence, challenging the social constructs of manhood, the culture of gossip, emotional blackmail, obsession, false accusations of paternity, and belief in one's self... fluff? these are ARTISTIC RISKS....they could have gone horribly awry, but they didnt....he did the record HIS way....and in a rare occurence that we will only see once in a lifetime, hit the bulls-eye and pleased EVERYBODY...the effects of that had both deep positive and negative effects on his work and the entire music industry after that.... let's remember...when Thriller was being conceived and recorded, MJ was still thought of as strictly an R&B act (Rolling Stone refused to do a cover story on him at the time), a boy band singer made good and the success or failure of the record was of little consequence to anyone BUT MJ...so pulling those strings wasnt as easy as we'd think it to be.... but WHY did he want to make a record like Thriller?....was it just to win the awards and make copious amounts of dough? partially, yeah...but beyond that...why would MJ risk his entire career (which he'd done a few times before at that point) on a record that everybody, even QUINCY, thought would only be a mild follow up to OTW? because he wanted out of the box...he wanted the limitations placed on Black musical artistry lifted...to end the segregation, so to speak...to send a message that you can follow your muse no matter what people say or think...you can do the kind of music you want to do and nobody should get in your way or try to stop you.... and he DID that...he achieved that goal of ARTISTIC freedom that reaps commercial success where it is unusual that the two paths EVER cross... and whether you believe it or not is beside the point....MJ kicked down a huge barrier with Thriller...and many artists, regardless of culture or genre have reaped the benefits... so at a superficial glance, it could appear that Thriller is nothing but the hottest chick in school for a couple years...but what happens when you talk to that chick and find out that there's more there than just eye candy... so like I said....people can feel how they wanna feel abt the artist and the record, we're all entitled to our opinions...but give credit where credit is due is all Im saying....

I talk to Scorpeze often. Really cool guy and his music is really good

chrispsyaph said:

Michael Jackson for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Graycap23 said:

nextedition said:

... If that was the case, quincy jones would have been much bigger than mj...but he wasnt. ...

He was and he is. Quincy Jones is a living legend, from his film scores to his ground breaking albums with Michael Jackson and others to his tv production work.

chrispsyaph said:

... people tend to overestimate Q's role...they tend to think that without a producer at the helm, Mike is helpless...it was Mike(w/the help of Randy Jackson) who created the the Jackson sound....

Greg Phillinganes created the Jacksons sound on Destiny. He is credited for the rhythm arrangements and did all the keyboards.

[Edited 9/23/18 6:21am]

modified said:

nextedition said:

If that was the case, quincy jones would have been much bigger than mj...but he wasnt.

He was and he is. Quincy Jones is a living legend, from his film scores to his ground breaking albums with Michael Jackson and others to his tv production work.

But are you not contradicting yourself? You agree that those albums are groundbreaking? But do not want to give Michael credit for writing the most beloved songs on those albums. ok

LightOfArt said:

But are you not contradicting yourself? You agree that those albums are groundbreaking? But do not want to give Michael credit for writing the most beloved songs on those albums. ok

I am not contradicting myself at all. Of course they are groundbreaking albums, but primarily thanks to the talents of Quincy Jones, Greg Phillinganes, Rod Temperton, the Porcaro brothers, Bruce Swedien, all the jazz players on it, etc. They made even the lamest MJ songs sound good.

RodeoSchro said:
Anyone that was around and of age during the 60's through the 90's would never call Michael Jackson "overrated".

I was around and bought the Billy Jean single as a kid when it came out. It is brilliant.

And then Thriller came out and was this huge thing. Wanna Be Starting Something and PYT are great, but I never really liked Beat It.

Then he took years to come up with a follow-up. When Bad came out, the general consensus was that it was over-produced, uninspired and just not as good as Thriller. The Bad single video was a ridiculous rehash of Beat It.

By that time I and many of my generation had moved on to Prince - or even Janet Jackson, who was putting out more interesting records with Jam+Lewis. Michael Jackson in the early 1990s became this weird pedo Las Vegas plastic surgery freak show.

It really is mostly millennials who seem to be brainwashed into believing that MJ was the immortal King of Pop.

[Edited 9/23/18 6:49am]

modified said:

LightOfArt said:

But are you not contradicting yourself? You agree that those albums are groundbreaking? But do not want to give Michael credit for writing the most beloved songs on those albums. ok

I am not contradicting myself at all. Of course they are groundbreaking albums, but primarily thanks to the talents of Quincy Jones, Greg Phillinganes, Rod Temperton, the Porcaro brothers, Bruce Swedien, all the jazz players on it, etc. They made even the lamest MJ songs sound good.

[Edited 9/23/18 6:33am]

But you are contradicting yourself again. You are calling his songs lame and groundbreaking at the same time.

As it has been pointed out to you in the comments above, the songs that MJ wrote are mostly arranged and co-produced by MJ.

The only logical explanation here is that you are looking to justify your dislike for the guy but are unable to find any plausible argument for it.

As for your argument claiming the musicians did everything for him, here is a demo of Billie Jean, before the guys you mentioned even tended to the song.

It's not rocket science to understand. The beat, the bass, guitars, strings, synths. It's all in here in this demo form. But you are already well aware of this I am sure

modified said:

LightOfArt said:

But are you not contradicting yourself? You agree that those albums are groundbreaking? But do not want to give Michael credit for writing the most beloved songs on those albums. ok

I am not contradicting myself at all. Of course they are groundbreaking albums, but primarily thanks to the talents of Quincy Jones, Greg Phillinganes, Rod Temperton, the Porcaro brothers, Bruce Swedien, all the jazz players on it, etc. They made even the lamest MJ songs sound good.

RodeoSchro said:
Anyone that was around and of age during the 60's through the 90's would never call Michael Jackson "overrated".

I was around and bought the Billy Jean single as a kid when it came out. It is brilliant.

And then Thriller came out and was this huge thing. Wanna Be Starting Something and PYT are great, but I never really liked Beat It.

Then he took years to come up with a follow-up. When Bad came out, the general consensus was that it was over-produced, uninspired and just not as good as Thriller. The Bad single video was a ridiculous rehash of Beat It.

By that time I and many of my generation had moved on to Prince - or even Janet Jackson, who was putting out more interesting records with Jam+Lewis. Michael Jackson in the early 1990s became this weird pedo Las Vegas plastic surgery freak show.

It really is mostly millennials who seem to be brainwashed into believing that MJ was the immortal King of Pop.

[Edited 9/23/18 6:49am]

It surely was not millenials who bought millions of copies Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous and HIStory. He is the third best selling artist of all times after Beatles and Elvis.

Even that Invincible album sold around 10 millions copies with only one radio single.

So millinials and older music lovers like me are quite right in thinking he was one of the most succesful musical artists ever

LightOfArt said:

But you are contradicting yourself again. You are calling his songs lame and groundbreaking at the same time ...

No, still no contradiction whatsoever. Yes, his albums are groundbreaking and yes he sold millions of them, but mostly thanks to Quincy Jones and other producers, arrangers and writers.

Billy Jean is great and Michael Jackson does deserve credit/respect for that and a few others. I never said he was totally useless; I only said he is overrated and a mediocre songwriter.

Billy Jean was his shining moment, but Beat It, Bad, Heal The World, Dirty Diana, Leave Me Alone, etc. are still lame, whiny, childish songs and he kept rehashing the same ideas.

MJ released nothing groundbreaking after Thriller. Dangerous has a few decent tracks, but again mostly thanks to producers/writers Teddy Riley, Bruce Swedien, Bill Bottrell.

Paulinho Da Costa. Another talent who was a major part of the classic MJ/Jacksons sound. Jazz percussionist who is all over his classic albums.

Personal tastes aside, while other producers, arrangers, and writers played a significant part (as they do for all artists), Jackson DID play the biggest role in the direction and success of his work

MJ wrote, arranged, composed, and produced/co-produced quite a bit of his 1978-2001 output.

Of his 13 number one singles, he wrote/co-wrote 10 of them.

If people want to think he re-hashed subjects, if he was a mediocre singer or overrated, those are personal opinions, fine.

But saying everybody else but him were the reason for his success as well as understating Jackson's role and talents....come on

[Edited 9/24/18 1:38am]

http://www.waxpoetics.com/blog/features/articles/the-jacksons-triumph-engineer-tom-perry/

[Edited 9/24/18 1:25am]

MotownSubdivision said:

modified said:

Effin millennials and their clueless explaineritis. This "analysis" is an embarrassment to white people. Reminds me of Patrick Bateman's music reviews in American Psycho.

Michael Jackson is massively overrated as an artist. He was an OK singer and a mediocre songwriter - Beat It for example sucks, whiny, childish, like many of his songs.

His producers are the real talents and visionaries behind his music; the Mizell Brothers for the early Jackson 5 hits, Quincy Jones for his 1980s heyday, several top producers Teddy Riley and Rodney Jerkins for the occassional half-decent track in the 1990s.

[Edited 9/11/18 10:55am]

If anything, Michael is underrated in all those regards and posts like yours support that idea. Also, this "Michael was nothing without Quincy/producers" narrative is beyond tired and beaten to death. We live in a time where we have unlimited info and knowledge at our disposal but people prefer to believe in their flat out wrong opinions over doing some basic research and accepting the facts. Michael's producers didn't do everything; stop pretending like they did. [Edited 9/12/18 23:30pm]

There's a great book that came out awhile back called "Making Michael" by Mike Smallcombe that goes into detail about the making of his albums. The author talked to Bill Bottrell, Matt Forger, Greg Phillinganes (Greg was recently interviewed for the upcoming revision also), John Barnes, Brad Buxer, and several others