MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

I was mildly surprised to see that Stevie has sold less than 20 million albums.

Before around the 1980s, Motown generally didn't report sales to the RIAA. So they wouldn't know how much he sold like in the Little Stevie era. The RIAA is voluntary, it's not required for labels to report sales to them. Also the albums after In Square Circle didn't really crossover (in the US, I don't know what they did in other countries). That came out in 1985 and he's only released 4 albums since then, 5 if you count the live album. Maybe there's been 50 greatest hits/best of/#1s albums by Stevie since 1985. Motown is known for releasing endless compilations of the same songs.

His dwindling output since ISC is why I wasn't completely surprised but Motown's lack of reporting does put things in greater context.

MickyDolenz said:

^^Other than Let's Dance, I don't think David Bowie's albums were really all that popular in the USA. I don't think Queen & Abba was either. I think they were more popular in Europe than here. I don't remember hearing that much by any of those acts on the radio. Before Let's Dance, the only songs by Bowie I had heard was Fame & Young Americans. Heard a lot of Eagles, Journey, & Chicago though. Before Let's Dance, Bowie was probably more of a cult act in the US, not a Top 40 radio one. I heard Steve Miller Band on the radio more than Queen. Probably the music & image of Bowie & Queen did not appeal as well to heartland America who was into Bob Seger or John Denver or southern rock bands, nor the hard rock fans of KISS & Rush.

i grew up listening to NY rock radio (70's/80's) and Queen was all over it

nextedition said:

Madonna and Michael Jackson are huge sellers around the world. The US market ist just part of the market. Garth Brooks for example is a very American market artist, he doesnt sell shit outside the US.

Michael Jackosn and Madonna sold out stadiums from south America to Japan to Europe to Russia to Australia.

Second, i think sales are not only what makes an artist a big artist. Its the whole picture. Prince was never a huge seller (expect for PR), but he was a huge presence. I don't see the Eagles having the influence Prince had. They were a rock band, with some great songs, but there were many of them.

That's why the death of David Bowie and Prince made such an impact. They had a huge influence on music.

Well stated nextedition. Yes, I also think in the USA, pop acts tend to be treated very faddishly. They have a moment and then a lot of their fans move on or outgrow them. The rock fans tended to be far more faithful. Their may even be an economic component ..i.e. Rock fans may have more discreationary income and are willing to spend some of it supporting their favorite artists.

All-in-all though, dollar votes are very important. Yes Michael Jackson and Madonna may have ruled the air waves and the tabloids...but it was Garth Brooks and Led Zepplin who ruled the record stores...at least in the USA.

DonRants said:

The rock fans tended to be far more faithful. Their may even be an economic component ..i.e. Rock fans may have more discreationary income and are willing to spend some of it supporting their favorite artists.

Yeah, it was the rock and metal fans who I saw wearing jean jackets with band patches all over them and Eddie (Iron Maiden) or the Rolling Stones tongue t-shirts. KISS was/are the merchandise kings because they had a look/image that sold. There's a KISS Kasket you can get buried in. Rock listeners are primarily who magazines like Rolling Stone, Creem, Guitar Magazine & Hit Parader were marketed to. I don't recall seeing anybody wearing a Luther Vandross, Isley Brothers, Teddy Pendergrass, or Maze shirt/jacket. Nor did they have dolls/wigs like The Beatles or a video game like Journey Escape. I later saw goth kids wearing Bauhaus & Depeche Mode shirts. Classic rock bands were also more likely to sell a lot of albums without having a lot of Top 40 airplay. Pink Floyd & Black Sabbath didn't have many Top 40 hits, but they sold lots of albums. The majority of the biggest selling acts are rock n roll based. Garth Brooks' concert presentation was based more on rock bands and less on Grand Ole Opry & Hee Haw. He even did a song on a KISS tribute album.

Yes I grew up when many of these albums were tallying up the sales so I remember that talk.

Garth Brooks will always be a surprise, since he was a nothing here. There was a music trivia TV show in the 90s and one of the questions was about the highest selling album of '91/92-ish in the US. The guests all rounded off the usual suspects (pop stars, Guns N Roses, Nirvana etc) but they were all wrong, the correct answer was Garth Brooks. Everyone was like "what the frak is a Garth Brooks?".

Probably a surprise now is Nevermind, I realise it's huge internationally and rightfully so but I was always under the impression it sold a lot more in the states. It hit like a hurricane, they HUMILIATED whacko jacko and systematically and thankfully *destroyed* the embarrassing rubbish that was stinking up the charts and brought real music back into fashion. That it only made a third of its overall sales in the US is a surprise, though Americans did have putrid taste in music through the 90s given the amount of Whitney Houston, Britney Spears, Backdoor Boys, etc on there.

spacedolphin said:

Probably a surprise now is Nevermind, I realise it's huge internationally and rightfully so but I was always under the impression it sold a lot more in the states.

I think the idea that Nirvana and grunge changed what was popular (at least in the US) is something the rock media wrote in retrospect, it didn't really happen. It didn't kill "hair metal". Bon Jovi, Van Hagar, and a few others were still popular in the mid 1990s. One of the most popular albums of 1992 was Totally Krossed Out by Kris Kross and Jump was #1 on the pop singles charts 8 or 9 weeks. Ace Of Base and other dance gruops were really popular in the US after grunge hit. So was Hootie & The Blowfish, Alanis Morrisette, & Counting Crows. It was really hip hop that changed mainstream music (and fashion). The popularity of grunge didn't last long, but hip hop is still popular today. Here is the Top 50 albums on the Billboard 200 for June 12, 1993, which is around 2 years after Nevermind. The only acts that could be related to Nirvana are Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, & maybe Primus. Michael Jackson's Dangerous is at 45 and Nirvana's Nevermind is at 181. So Nirvana might have replaced Dangerous at #1, but in the long run Mike was selling better.

DonRants said:

MickyDolenz said:

lastdecember said:

MotownSubdivision said:

In some cases today, an artist has to combine the sales of all their albums to date just to achieve gold status. Even doing that, some still fail to reach that level.

More people back then bought a physical item because the technology of the time required that, just like newer technology made the wind up Victrola obsolete. 33 & 45 replaced the 78. The devices the average person uses to listen music on today does not need records, tapes, or CDs. That's a reason streaming is used in chart criteria today. Streaming is what is in now, not CDs. They don't even put CD players in many newer cars, but there's a USB jack. The CD section in stares like Wal-Mart & Target gets smaller & smaller and Best Buy announced they're going to stop stocking them altogether. A lot of people don't shop online, so even if they want to buy a CD, there's nowhere for them to buy one or its a limited selection. Like if someone is into southern soul, a department store or Barnes & Noble is not as likely to have what they want to buy. CDs at Barnes & Noble cost more too. So they might go the street tape route in which they buy a burned CD from someone in the neighborhood or at their job for about $5. They are also the ones who are likely to buy bootleg movies that are still at the theater, which are not good picture quality. Because it's cheaper than going to the movies especially if they have to buy multiple tickets.

I love the Backstreet Boys, but really, Millenium has sold more copies that Purple Rain?

MickyDolenz said:

DonRants said:

5 of his albums are right at the 10 million mark. The other two sold more. He clearly has a very loyal fan base.

Garth and then Shania Twain & Dixie Chicks were really the first country related acts to get blockbuster sales like rock bands. Before Garth's success in the 1990s, Kenny Rogers was the most popular with the mainstream.

I listened to it a lot in college because I attended college in a small college town in Eastern Washington.

.

I agree with this point about Garth Brooks, Shania, and the Dixie Chicks. Garth Brooks, as far as I know, has not really crossed over to mainstream, but he just sold really well among Country listeners. I knew Garth Brooks by name, but I didn't really know any of his songs until I attended college. Shania had huge crossover success as did the Dixie Chicks. Faith Hill did also. Taylor Swift actually started out as a Country artist; I was in college when her first single, "Tim McGraw", was released.

namepeace said:

I was mildly surprised to see that Stevie has sold less than 20 million albums.

He's sold way more albums than that.

I think that individual album sales are important, but are not a great measure of overall impact of an artist. This is true both pre-internet and in the internet era. Looking at overall album sales is more meaningful because it accounts for artists who have greater longevity (e.g., Prince, Springsteen, Stevie Wonder, Madonna, Elvis, Sinatra). *NSYNC may have sold a ton of copies of two of their albums, *NSYNC and No Strings Attached (both of which I own and love), but their overall album sales and impact is less than the aforementioned solo artists because *NSYNC didn't release that many studio albums. In fact, they have only released four albums of original material, all of which I own: *NSYNC, No Strings Attached, Celebrity, and Home for Christmas. *NSYNC has two albums on the top-sellers list while Prince only has one, but few people would argue that *NSYNC are more influential than Prince.

206Michelle said:

Garth Brooks, as far as I know, has not really crossed over to mainstream, but he just sold really well among Country listeners.

Nah, Garth couldn't have had 7 diamond albums with only the country audience. If that was the case, then George Jones, Willie Nelson, Loretta Lynn, The Judds, Merle Haggard, George Strait, Randy Travis, Barbara Mandrell, etc would have done so before him. Dolly Parton didn't really have huge selling albums even though she was famous with the mainstream. Dolly had a few pop hits, but her singles were mostly big country hits only. Dolly's mainstream popularity was more as a personality on TV variety shows and movies, not so much as an album seller, or getting Top 40 airplay. Sort of like Charo, who plays flamenco guitar. Kenny Rogers was the first to have multi-platinum crossover success in the late 1970s, and Alabama to a lesser extent in the early 1980s. There's country acts who had singles that became pop hits before and during Kenny's crossover era, but their albums did not sell like Kenny's did. Kenny was so popular at the time, they made movies based on his hit The Gambler. It helped that the country/trucker image was popular during that period with Urban Cowboy, Dukes Of Hazzard, BJ & The Bear, Hee Haw, Dallas, CB radios, Smokey & The Bandit, etc. It's like if there was a music craze, John Tavolta had a movie about it. Like 50's nostalgia (Grease), disco (Saturday Night Fever), & country (Urban Cowboy).

MickyDolenz said:

206Michelle said:

namepeace said:

I was mildly surprised to see that Stevie has sold less than 20 million albums.

He's sold way more albums than that.

I'm sure he has; but remember, we're talking RIAA certifications.

As Mickey said, Motown didn't report his sales to the RIAA until after the 70's. He'd be higher on the RIAA lis if Motown had reported his sales to RIAA during his prime.

206Michelle said:

MickyDolenz said:

Garth and then Shania Twain & Dixie Chicks were really the first country related acts to get blockbuster sales like rock bands. Before Garth's success in the 1990s, Kenny Rogers was the most popular with the mainstream.

I listened to it a lot in college because I attended college in a small college town in Eastern Washington.

.

I agree with this point about Garth Brooks, Shania, and the Dixie Chicks. Garth Brooks, as far as I know, has not really crossed over to mainstream, but he just sold really well among Country listeners. I knew Garth Brooks by name, but I didn't really know any of his songs until I attended college. Shania had huge crossover success as did the Dixie Chicks. Faith Hill did also. Taylor Swift actually started out as a Country artist; I was in college when her first single, "Tim McGraw", was released.

I also went to college during this period..although in a small town in Minnesota. Garth was huge..so too was Faith Hill. Garth really had some awesome songs..."The Dance" is still one of my all time favorites songs. His albums were solid..the QUALITY ws there..then he would famously work his ass off. There are famous stories about Garth performing and then signing at country fairs. He didn't leave until everyone in his line got his signature. No one left disappointed. It took him hours. But people respect that and it breeds loyalty.

It was definitely Hip Hopthat killed Hair Metal. I saw several white families where the older siblings(kids of the 80s) where hair metal fans and the younger siblings(90s kids) were into "Too Short, Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog"...the dirtier lyrics the better. I think hair metal just died..Guns and Roses, I feel were strong enough to take metal through the 90s but they imploded.

MickyDolenz said:

spacedolphin said:

Probably a surprise now is Nevermind, I realise it's huge internationally and rightfully so but I was always under the impression it sold a lot more in the states.

I think the idea that Nirvana and grunge changed what was popular (at least in the US) is something the rock media wrote in retrospect, it didn't really happen. It didn't kill "hair metal". Bon Jovi, Van Hagar, and a few others were still popular in the mid 1990s. .. It was really hip hop that changed mainstream music (and fashion). The popularity of grunge didn't last long, but hip hop is still popular today.

DonRants said:

It was definitely Hip Hop that killed Hair Metal. I saw several white families where the older siblings (kids of the 80s) where hair metal fans and the younger siblings (90s kids) were into "Too Short, Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog"...the dirtier lyrics the better. I think hair metal just died..Guns and Roses, I feel were strong enough to take metal through the 90s but they imploded.

In a way, there was sort of a sort of an unintentional passing of the torch for hip hop to replace rock music in popularity. With rock & rap collabos such as Run-DMC/Aerosmith, Public Ememy/Anthrax, Fat Boys/Beach Boys, Puff Daddy/Jimmy Page, Kurtis Blow/Bob Dylan, Nelly/Joe Perry, etc. There was an entire album called Judgment Night. Then there were rock bands like Limp Bizkit & Red Hot Chili Peppers who rapped in their own music. ZZ Top remade 25 Lighters by DJ DMD, Lil Keke, & Fat Pat. A lot of the songs Weird Al parodies now are rap hits. In recent years several rap acts have been inducted into the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame. Hip hop is pop music now. Instead of getting a Eddie Van Halen to play a guitar solo on Beat It, many pop & dance singers today get a rapper to do the break. Mariah Carey is well known for this. Even some modern country and jazz acts use rappers or a hip hop sound in their music. So have some symphony orchestras. There's sub-genres like folk rap, horrorcore, chap hop, hick hop, jazz rap, hip house, etc. Straight Outta Compton is the highest grossing music biopic. When you get videos like this, you know hip hop has taken over entertainment

MotownSubdivision said:

I understand that but if nobody is actually buying the music then I'm not seeing how that benefits the industry. Artists make pennies on the dollar for what they stream with the labels getting the lion's share of whatever profit there is.

But that happened under the old system too. Nothing new there. Very few recording artists became rich and that mostly started in the 1970s when the blockbuster album sales began. Most made little or no money. Some labels did not report sales to the RIAA or told artists they sold less than they really did to get out of paying much the acts. James Brown said that King Records often wouldn't report his sales to Billboard, so he couldn't get higher chart positions for his singles. Little Richard said he made half a penny for each record sold and that he made more money on the road. So he had to sell 2 records to make 1 cent. Then since some of those labels during that era had the mafia behind it and so did the clubs they performed in, they were lucky to make any money at all. Those acts might get beat up by mob guys or hung from balconies and forced to sign contracts. It's been said that Frank Sinatra had to talk to the mob to convince them to cancel a hit ordered on Sammy Davis Jr, who owed them money. A lot of those earlier music acts got paid in cars, fur coats, cash, drugs, women, etc. They didn't get royalties from sales. Same with later acts. Remember, TLC sold mullti-platinum but was still in the hole to their record label and that was pre-internet. Billy Joel got ripped off by his mangager. Even Michael Jackson got a small percentage compared what CBS/Sony made off of him. The Beatles lost their songs because they signed a bad contract with Lew Grade. That's how they came up for sale in the 1980s with other songs in the ATV catalog for Michael Jackson to buy. People not buying a physical product is why the labels have 360 deals now, when they had usually had little to do with merchandising & tour money. So the labels still make the most money off the artists.

206Michelle said:

mynameisnotsusan said:

206Michelle said:

I love the Backstreet Boys, but really, Millenium has sold more copies that Purple Rain?

Purple Rain was last certified in May 1996. Prince never really gave a shit about that - it's primarily just a marketing tool. If the estate wanted to go through the process there is no doubt it could be significantly increased.

Hopefully the estate realizes some of his legacy depends on those numbers and would be at least curious to know after the release of Purple Rain DELUXE (which I never thought we would see the light of day).

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

I was mildly surprised to see that Stevie has sold less than 20 million albums.

Before around the 1980s, Motown generally didn't report sales to the RIAA. So they wouldn't know how much he sold like in the Little Stevie era. The RIAA is voluntary, it's not required for labels to report sales to them. Also the albums after In Square Circle didn't really crossover (in the US, I don't know what they did in other countries). That came out in 1985 and he's only released 4 albums since then, 5 if you count the live album. Maybe there's been 50 greatest hits/best of/#1s albums by Stevie since 1985. Motown is known for releasing endless compilations of the same songs.

Gordy agree in 1977 to start having his artist certified, but he was also know for saying that a song was a million seller, and it wasn't. The RIAA only had Gold and Platinum status before the fall of 1984, many artist have never had their certifications updated for whatever reason. They changed labels .. etc... but it is a voluntary thing and sales are much easier track since the soundscan era which started in 91. Then there were those artist who labes hid sales as well.

[Edited 5/18/18 22:20pm]

Cinny said:

Hopefully the estate realizes some of his legacy depends on those numbers and would be at least curious to know after the release of Purple Rain DELUXE (which I never thought we would see the light of day).

Does that really matter to today's audience? When Lil Wayne & Drake have broken the Hot 100 record by Elvis Presley in a way shorter amount of time or Psy getting 3 billion views on Youtube for Gangnam Style, and that's just the official video and not the views on the other postings of the song.

Tontoman22 said:

MickyDolenz said:

Before around the 1980s, Motown generally didn't report sales to the RIAA. So they wouldn't know how much he sold like in the Little Stevie era. The RIAA is voluntary, it's not required for labels to report sales to them. Also the albums after In Square Circle didn't really crossover (in the US, I don't know what they did in other countries). That came out in 1985 and he's only released 4 albums since then, 5 if you count the live album. Maybe there's been 50 greatest hits/best of/#1s albums by Stevie since 1985. Motown is known for releasing endless compilations of the same songs.

Gordy agree in 1977 to start having his artist certified, but he was also know for saying that a song was a million seller, and it wasn't. The RIAA only had Gold and Platinum status before the fall of 1984, many artist have never had their certifications updated for whatever reason. They changed labels .. etc... but it is a voluntary thing and sales are much easier track since the soundscan era which started in 91. Then there were those artist who labes hid sales as well.

[Edited 5/18/18 22:20pm]

Thanks for the additional context.

namepeace said:

Thanks for the additional context.

I guess Lionel Richie & Boyz II Men benefited from that

MickyDolenz said:

namepeace said:

Thanks for the additional context.

I guess Lionel Richie & Boyz II Men benefited from that

mynameisnotsusan said:

Counting double albums as 2 copies is kind of a cheat to me. Billy Joel - Greatest Hits? Garth Brooks - Double Live? Really?

I agree. How many albums from the CD era counted as ONE copy turned into "double albums" in this renewed vinyl reissue era?