TrivialPursuit said:

cloveringold85 said:

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MJ was tired and he was in pain, and I think a lot of his drug abuse was due to his emotional issues he had from childhood. I don't think he had the right people in his life to really care about him and help him. He was used and abused and that is all very sad and tragic because MJ was one of the most beautiful human being to ever walk this earth. I think he used pills to take the edge off, and a glass of wine or two, pretty soon....it's propofol to help him sleep, because nothing else seemed to work. Just all very sad.......

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

TrivialPursuit said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

MJ was tired and he was in pain, and I think a lot of his drug abuse was due to his emotional issues he had from childhood. I don't think he had the right people in his life to really care about him and help him. He was used and abused and that is all very sad and tragic because MJ was one of the most beautiful human being to ever walk this earth. I think he used pills to take the edge off, and a glass of wine or two, pretty soon....it's propofol to help him sleep, because nothing else seemed to work. Just all very sad.......

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

MJ is so complex, it's hard to understand why he can't have different sides to him and he brings it out in music. He talks many times about short films with beginnings, middle and end, and about musical scores; and this ended up manifesting itself throughout his music video catalogue, not unlike an opera or broadway show. Let's not get started on the media circus. Having said that, Childhood isn't my cup of tea though it's pretty, but the issue was weighing in on the narrative, and I'm beginning to believe almost defensively after 1993, who could blame him? I really think if there was some form of PTSD following Thriller, we saw it manifest and even he ultimately could not handle it.

It's easy to say oh he was in business, he knew etc. He didn't have the development of an adult brain when in early years of business and was put into very adult situations. MJ was forever looking for a father in all the people he trusted and a sense of normalcy and it was always messy. This is a phenomenon that does not begin or end with mj, and I feel like the talk and exploration became a distraction for him, not unlike adults winding down to watch cartoons after doing a day or week's worth of hard work, but to a very extreme measure played out in the public eye, or depending on how portrayed.

People said brotha climbed trees, I saw a man who was meditating and being one with nature. And now here we are, the peter pan generation is normal now. But he wasn't allowed to be.

[Edited 12/20/17 20:16pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

MJ was tired and he was in pain, and I think a lot of his drug abuse was due to his emotional issues he had from childhood. I don't think he had the right people in his life to really care about him and help him. He was used and abused and that is all very sad and tragic because MJ was one of the most beautiful human being to ever walk this earth. I think he used pills to take the edge off, and a glass of wine or two, pretty soon....it's propofol to help him sleep, because nothing else seemed to work. Just all very sad.......

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

.

Very good points you make here. I just feel that MJ always had that childs voice inside of him; longing for the childhood he never had. You think he was ungrateful? MJ never gave me that impression. He loved his fans and was pleased with his success. But then again, did seem like he was never fully satisfied; he was always striving to do better. He was his worst critic, but I never thought he seemed ungrateful.

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[Edited 12/21/17 14:33pm]

alphastreet said:

TrivialPursuit said:

You're correct on all counts.

I totally agree with you about MJ being a fucking asshole. It's hard to think of someone like him that way, but I think the same about Prince. They're not assholes, of course. Their behavior was shittastic when it came to drugs or addiction. It's that way with an addict. I think the thing that just makes me angry about it all is that they were both superhuman talent-wise, but died in just a goddamn pedestrian way. Oh look - rock star dead on drugs. Shocker! I suppose the alternative is that Prince would have gotten dementia and ended up babbling on like Dick Gregory or something.

No offense to mj, but a big part of my healing included admitting that I was too too too angry with him to grieve and it became prolonged and I was guilt ridden for years. It wasn't out of contempt or hate, but from simply building him up more and more to distance self from own shit, this stupid way of dying (come on if it wasn't mj and someone else, we would not be this stressd and laugh it off); and suddenly the cord being cut off from the co dependent nature between him and fans. Nothing sat well with me, he was gone in whatever way and was not coming back(I am even open to hoax but don't care anymore) No one gave me this idea, this is how I felt about myself , my truth, and maybe for others it was something else but was very alienating. If we were to look at the absent parent factor, I would even go onto say being "betrayed" the second time did not sit well with me this time and I had process other shit and even take a mental health break from him for my own well being , though nothing against him. Plus it was info overload from all the negativity for decades. And no, he didn't betray me or anybody, he was doing more than he could handle and was a people pleaser and that's what got him into all his messes, and that is not entirely his fault. Myself and others put selfish expectations on him too long, and the poor thing could not sleep. I was saying it was strange he wanted to tour cause he doesn't like it. Had he just released one more r&b/pop album, the classical project and done stuff with his art, maybe he would still be here and maybe not. [ [Edited 12/20/17 20:13pm]

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I don't think he wanted to do that tour at all.

[Edited 12/21/17 14:36pm]

alphastreet said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

MJ is so complex, it's hard to understand why he can't have different sides to him and he brings it out in music. He talks many times about short films with beginnings, middle and end, and about musical scores; and this ended up manifesting itself throughout his music video catalogue, not unlike an opera or broadway show. Let's not get started on the media circus. Having said that, Childhood isn't my cup of tea though it's pretty, but the issue was weighing in on the narrative, and I'm beginning to believe almost defensively after 1993, who could blame him? I really think if there was some form of PTSD following Thriller, we saw it manifest and even he ultimately could not handle it.

It's easy to say oh he was in business, he knew etc. He didn't have the development of an adult brain when in early years of business and was put into very adult situations. MJ was forever looking for a father in all the people he trusted and a sense of normalcy and it was always messy. This is a phenomenon that does not begin or end with mj, and I feel like the talk and exploration became a distraction for him, not unlike adults winding down to watch cartoons after doing a day or week's worth of hard work, but to a very extreme measure played out in the public eye, or depending on how portrayed.

People said brotha climbed trees, I saw a man who was meditating and being one with nature. And now here we are, the peter pan generation is normal now. But he wasn't allowed to be.

[Edited 12/20/17 20:16pm]

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Well said.

.

I always enjoyed watching MJ doing interviews when he was just being himself; not on-stage, not trying to please the fans or his managers, etc. He was very intelligent and complex. He was someone I could just sit and talk to for hours.

TrivialPursuit said:

purple05 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

I agree with your points except you're trying to fit MJ into a box. He, like most people, were complex. MJ was a shrew business man, naive in personal relationships(his relatives suffer from the same issue), he had child-likecqualities while being a full grown man, smart, innovative, at times he could be manipulative, etc He was many things to varying degrees as we all are. While MJ had all the professional success and material things, he seemed to have deep emotional wounds from the treatment he received in his home and growing pains from being famous so young. From different things I've read it seems MJ was mia alot even before he officially moved. They say he used to disappear all the time. When he was re over it from the Pepsi burn he checked into a hotel, that's until Emanuel Lewis & his family urged him to move in with them. It was obviously some discord there before Thriller. Thriller & NL is just the excuse that's used as to why he left. It was much deeper than that. I often wonder did he understand life without people constantly wanting something from him

.

I agree.

purple05 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

MJ's pain was more in his head. He separated from his father and that house after the Victory tour, if not shortly before. He left the tour and headed to Sycamore Ranch (a la Neverland), never to look back to Encino. It's not like Joe was around when MJ was 30 or 40, berating him or whatever. MJ became very sheltered and only surrounded himself with who he wanted. While I don't dismiss the mental turmoil he faced, I think it became more of a badge of dishonor or pity. It was an escape to say "I just wanna be a child again".

There is a glaring juxtaposition between him having these sycophants around him and that he was so naive or innocent (nonsense), to the idea that he was raised in the business and knew bullshit a mile off with people trying to mooch off of him. He can't have it both ways. I don't buy that he was a kid inside his whole life. There are plenty of folks who miss out on a childhood that don't end up buying carousels, theme parks or mannequins of people to keep around and feel young again.

I remember when "Childhood" came out, and it was just so melodramatic. I remember thinking, "MJ, you're grown. Own it." No one writes songs like "Morphine" or "Blood On The Dance Floor" or "Dirty Diana" (a direct ode to groupies & moochers), then wax poetic about being a grown-man-child-adult hybrid.

I'd rather MJ have just been a drunk than a druggie. I'm sad that never quite found the happiness that he deserved, yet it comes across as a tad ungrateful that he had everything and pretended like he was depleted of everything.

I agree with your points except you're trying to fit MJ into a box. He, like most people, were complex. MJ was a shrew business man, naive in personal relationships(his relatives suffer from the same issue), he had child-likecqualities while being a full grown man, smart, innovative, at times he could be manipulative, etc He was many things to varying degrees as we all are. While MJ had all the professional success and material things, he seemed to have deep emotional wounds from the treatment he received in his home and growing pains from being famous so young. From different things I've read it seems MJ was mia alot even before he officially moved. They say he used to disappear all the time. When he was re over it from the Pepsi burn he checked into a hotel, that's until Emanuel Lewis & his family urged him to move in with them. It was obviously some discord there before Thriller. Thriller & NL is just the excuse that's used as to why he left. It was much deeper than that. I often wonder did he understand life without people constantly wanting something from him

This post has humanized him more so than anything. It's more common than not, being the biggest star in the world, and still being an adult child living at a (religious) home definitely took its' toll. He probably could not find the solace, peace and quiet he needed to escape all that world sought after. I'm sure his family was happy, but he was their little brother, I'm sure there was jealousy, envy and competition.

[Edited 12/22/17 19:46pm]

I've always liked 'Another Part of Me', and as the first release from Michael Jackson after Thriller, it seemed like a more R&B/dance kind of tune, which was good.

That said, I've never understood the chorus/lyrics. Why does he use the phrase "another part of me"? What is it supposed to mean here?

(Also, is there some reason he couldn't have had both this one and 'Streetwalker' on the album?)

ThePanther said:

I've always liked 'Another Part of Me', and as the first release from Michael Jackson after Thriller, it seemed like a more R&B/dance kind of tune, which was good.

That said, I've never understood the chorus/lyrics. Why does he use the phrase "another part of me"? What is it supposed to mean here?

(Also, is there some reason he couldn't have had both this one and 'Streetwalker' on the album?)

It's pretty easy to figure it out, really. The message is that we are all ultimately from the same source. We're more alike than we are different, so the concentration on race, gender, sexuality, etc is pointless. We have more in common than we have differences.

I've said the same thing for years. We might have different sources of our bliss, pain, joy, elation, hurt, etc but those emotions feel the same. When he uses phrases like 'the planets are lining up', he's telling a story of a positive move in society where people are more accepting and less prejudiced. He's part of the change, and leading the pack of positivity. "We're bringin' brighter days..."

"You think you're that different? Nah, you're just another part of me." is the message.

TrivialPursuit said:

It's pretty easy to figure it out, really. The message is that we are all ultimately from the same source. We're more alike than we are different, so the concentration on race, gender, sexuality, etc is pointless. We have more in common than we have differences.

I've said the same thing for years. We might have different sources of our bliss, pain, joy, elation, hurt, etc but those emotions feel the same. When he uses phrases like 'the planets are lining up', he's telling a story of a positive move in society where people are more accepting and less prejudiced. He's part of the change, and leading the pack of positivity. "We're bringin' brighter days..."

"You think you're that different? Nah, you're just another part of me." is the message.

Hey, thanks for that! You're probably right in this interpretation. I dunno, though, maybe he could have sung "Another part of us" or something. I can't help feeling like it's the start of Michael's messiah complex (or was that earlier?).

ThePanther said:

(Also, is there some reason he couldn't have had both this one and 'Streetwalker' on the album?)

Bad would have been a 2 record set then, and those generally didn't sell as well as a single album. Because they cost more. Records couldn't hold much time. The more time you put on it over a certain amount, the sound quality decreases. Leave Me Alone was only on the CD, not on the record and cassette. Although they could have fit it on the tape, but there probably would have been 1 side with a long blank space. Around that time CDs were just beginning to come out, and I think labels were trying to get people to buy them by putting extra tracks on them. Stevie Wonder's Characters had 2 extra songs on the CD & cassette that weren't on the record version.

GOOD Post

purple05 said:

I agree with your points except you're trying to fit MJ into a box. He, like most people, were complex. MJ was a shrew business man, naive in personal relationships(his relatives suffer from the same issue), he had child-likecqualities while being a full grown man, smart, innovative, at times he could be manipulative, etc He was many things to varying degrees as we all are. While MJ had all the professional success and material things, he seemed to have deep emotional wounds from the treatment he received in his home and growing pains from being famous so young. From different things I've read it seems MJ was mia alot even before he officially moved. They say he used to disappear all the time. When he was re over it from the Pepsi burn he checked into a hotel, that's until Emanuel Lewis & his family urged him to move in with them. It was obviously some discord there before Thriller. Thriller & NL is just the excuse that's used as to why he left. It was much deeper than that. I often wonder did he understand life without people constantly wanting something from him

MickyDolenz said:

ThePanther said:

(Also, is there some reason he couldn't have had both this one and 'Streetwalker' on the album?)

Bad would have been a 2 record set then, and those generally didn't sell as well as a single album. Because they cost more. Records couldn't hold much time.

Well, just as a historical note... in the 50s, Columbia Records (later owned by Sony, just like Epic Records) created an LP that held 26 minutes per side. That was 52 minutes total, opposed to the regular 45 minutes. It was mostly used for Broadway type stuff, and the mastering process was really limited because of the technique used. Regular albums with a better mastering would become inferior on the longer format.

There are some more mainstream albums that went past the 26 minutes because of smaller grooves between songs, etc. Duke by Genesis was over 27 minutes, and Dylan's Desire pushed 30 minutes. Todd Rundgren's Initiation ran just over 67 minutes total over two sides.

Hell, there are even 45s that ran 7 or 8 minutes. I think the Eurythmics have one (and I might have a pressing of it somewhere). I think Waylon Jennings had a 45 that ran 5 minutes. I had it as a kid, and I remember that the time it felt like the record itself was ever-so-slightly bigger than a standard 7" record. The intro groove was much shorter, I remember that.

ThePanther said:

Hey, thanks for that! You're probably right in this interpretation. I dunno, though, maybe he could have sung "Another part of us" or something. I can't help feeling like it's the start of Michael's messiah complex (or was that earlier?).

I never thought about MJ having a messiah complex. But if he did, it was probably "Man In The Mirror". It's preachy (but still a great song, as much as "Purple Rain" or "Gold"). APOM fits into the message, as does "Heal The World", "Keep The Faith", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me", "Earth Song", etc.

I think the dude did want to see better things in the world. His voice was just loud and more melodic than the other 99% of us hatchlings.

TrivialPursuit said:

I never thought about MJ having a messiah complex.

Let's put it this way: I supported Jarvis Cocker!

ThePanther said:

TrivialPursuit said:

It's pretty easy to figure it out, really. The message is that we are all ultimately from the same source. We're more alike than we are different, so the concentration on race, gender, sexuality, etc is pointless. We have more in common than we have differences.

I've said the same thing for years. We might have different sources of our bliss, pain, joy, elation, hurt, etc but those emotions feel the same. When he uses phrases like 'the planets are lining up', he's telling a story of a positive move in society where people are more accepting and less prejudiced. He's part of the change, and leading the pack of positivity. "We're bringin' brighter days..."

"You think you're that different? Nah, you're just another part of me." is the message.

Hey, thanks for that! You're probably right in this interpretation. I dunno, though, maybe he could have sung "Another part of us" or something. I can't help feeling like it's the start of Michael's messiah complex (or was that earlier?).

Not at all, He's saying to the listener you're not that different from me, you're my brother something to that effect.

TrivialPursuit said:

ThePanther said:

I've always liked 'Another Part of Me', and as the first release from Michael Jackson after Thriller, it seemed like a more R&B/dance kind of tune, which was good.

That said, I've never understood the chorus/lyrics. Why does he use the phrase "another part of me"? What is it supposed to mean here?

(Also, is there some reason he couldn't have had both this one and 'Streetwalker' on the album?)

It's pretty easy to figure it out, really. The message is that we are all ultimately from the same source. We're more alike than we are different, so the concentration on race, gender, sexuality, etc is pointless. We have more in common than we have differences.

I've said the same thing for years. We might have different sources of our bliss, pain, joy, elation, hurt, etc but those emotions feel the same. When he uses phrases like 'the planets are lining up', he's telling a story of a positive move in society where people are more accepting and less prejudiced. He's part of the change, and leading the pack of positivity. "We're bringin' brighter days..."

"You think you're that different? Nah, you're just another part of me." is the message.

Agree with you wholeheartedly.

ThePanther said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I never thought about MJ having a messiah complex.

Let's put it this way: I supported Jarvis Cocker!

I know this is supposed to mean something, but I'm lost on it.

TrivialPursuit said: