Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

Back to velvet rope, it's a refreshing change to see this album get a lot of love....I wonder if janet will give all for you love like this in 2021 for simply being crowned icon and being a strong comeback...would be so cool if she reissued songs she didn't get to back then, just for fans, at least in concert, telling MTV to f-off

[Edited 10/10/17 17:17pm]

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

namepeace said:

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

TrivialPursuit said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling

The Velvet Rope was the FIRST CD that I ever bought. I wrote this on my Facebook page a few minutes ago:

...

Happy belated 20th birthday to The Velvet Rope, which was released on October 7, 1997. The Velvet Rope is significant to me because it was the FIRST CD that I ever bought. It was a milestone in my childhood. For people of my age, I feel like buying CDs/music was a part of adolescence, self-expression, and a part of the development of a personal identity. I bought my copy of The Velvet Rope at the Target in West Seattle's Westwood Village shopping center, most likely in 1998, when I 12 years old. I'm pretty sure that I was in 7th grade at the time. I bought the album because I was obsessed with Janet's song "Together Again," it was my jam! "The Velvet Rope" is not exactly appropriate for a 12-year-old, but I didn't comprehend a lot of the adult themes on the album because they "went over my head" lol. (I had a pretty sheltered childhood.) I cannot believe it's been 20 years since Janet made this album. And guess who I'm going to see in concert next month...Janet Jackson.

...

So I was challenged on here regarding "What About" and that it wasn't about Rene. While I've stuck to that story (because obviously their marriage was on its way out in those last few years), I did dig around tonight.

While she didn't mention names in interviews about the song, it was certainly clear who she was talking about, IMO. It seems she could have been referring to her marriage to DeBarge, unless there was someone else between DeBarge and Rene that I'm missing.

In the scope of the timeline, it certainly makes more sense. I read a lot of interviews tonight about how she had buried so much pain in her life stemming from childhood and her early adult years. They really started to surface near the end of the janet. tour. She ended up in the desert with a shaman, and that's how the coffee enema thing came about to get rid of sad cells.

I saw an interview with Madonna around 1998 where Kurt Loder was kind of dumping on the album's artwork, comparing it to Madonna's Sex book, with the bondage, etc. He was dismissive of it, and Madonna brushed it off (because what is she going to do, keep trashing someone?) While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Control didn't officially sample anything, but I knew I wasn't the only one who heard the similarity between the track Control and Freakazoid . The elements in the music on that album not only remind me of prince and mj, but also freestyle and funk tracks of the 80's, which janet herself paid homage to on 20 YO

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later.

alphastreet said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

I don't feel like prince wrote that; but the chord progressions sound like it could have come up in a jam session before getting fired Jungle love actually is a great precursor to the control era more so than any particular prince track

That's my thought as well.

alphastreet said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Let's be clear. Prince never insinuated that he wrote that song. Not on The Nude Tour or otherwise. It was more a ribbing to Jimmy & Terry.

Spoken: "Who wrote that?!"
Unspoken, "My pals Jimmy & Terry, member of a group I put together. They wouldn't be anyone without me." It was friendly competitive banter, not a claim of ownership.

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling

So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling

So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

That's the fucking truth! Prince delved into two genres that he should never have gotten into. The NJS and reverby-echoy production hat we heard with people like Taylor Dayne. It worked for Dayne, but not for Prince. His music became very dated and uncharacteristic of what we knew of him. And it wasn't that he was growing as an artist. He had always done that. But the bland hollowed out sound of 1989-1991 is what took down his crown as the Prince of pop. While we like stuff on GB, it wasn't very accessible to the public. Prince wasn't weird anymore. Prince wasn't creating music and being innovative anymore. He saw something he liked and tried to make it his own and it failed.

Jam and Lewis were already there melding it into their productions while giving their artist the vision they wanted for a project. They nailed it. Teddy Riley nailed it. Guy, New Edition, TLC, endless list of folks who got it and made it their own. Maybe Prince felt threatened by that and tried to trip them up. I think he failed at it, and thank God for the more band-oriented sound we started to get by 1992 or so.

TrivialPursuit said:

So I was challenged on here regarding "What About" and that it wasn't about Rene. While I've stuck to that story (because obviously their marriage was on its way out in those last few years), I did dig around tonight.

While she didn't mention names in interviews about the song, it was certainly clear who she was talking about, IMO. It seems she could have been referring to her marriage to DeBarge, unless there was someone else between DeBarge and Rene that I'm missing.

In the scope of the timeline, it certainly makes more sense. I read a lot of interviews tonight about how she had buried so much pain in her life stemming from childhood and her early adult years. They really started to surface near the end of the janet. tour. She ended up in the desert with a shaman, and that's how the coffee enema thing came about to get rid of sad cells.

I saw an interview with Madonna around 1998 where Kurt Loder was kind of dumping on the album's artwork, comparing it to Madonna's Sex book, with the bondage, etc. He was dismissive of it, and Madonna brushed it off (because what is she going to do, keep trashing someone?) While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

StrangeButTrue said:

TrivialPursuit said:

While it's a good album, Erotica was the rehearsal to what The Velvet Rope became in full.

[bullshit GIF]

LOL Hey, listen. I'm not saying Erotica isn't a great record. It is. It's textured, gritty, sexy, sultry. It's a bit like getting a blowjob on a plush couch found in an alley behind Nordstrom's.

The Velvet Rope, however, feels more focused. Less about being provocative and more about substance.

TrivialPursuit said:

namepeace said:

So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

That's the fucking truth! Prince delved into two genres that he should never have gotten into. The NJS and reverby-echoy production hat we heard with people like Taylor Dayne. It worked for Dayne, but not for Prince. His music became very dated and uncharacteristic of what we knew of him. And it wasn't that he was growing as an artist. He had always done that. But the bland hollowed out sound of 1989-1991 is what took down his crown as the Prince of pop. While we like stuff on GB, it wasn't very accessible to the public. Prince wasn't weird anymore. Prince wasn't creating music and being innovative anymore. He saw something he liked and tried to make it his own and it failed.

Jam and Lewis were already there melding it into their productions while giving their artist the vision they wanted for a project. They nailed it. Teddy Riley nailed it. Guy, New Edition, TLC, endless list of folks who got it and made it their own. Maybe Prince felt threatened by that and tried to trip them up. I think he failed at it, and thank God for the more band-oriented sound we started to get by 1992 or so.

GB is a solid album, but it had a tail-wags-dog kind of feel in spots, (imo) because he was trying to find the mass audiences again. That was a funny time, when Teddy Riley basically lifted "Do Me, Baby" for Bobby's "Rock Wit'Cha" and Prince returned the favor with NJS-style productions the next few years.

To me, J&L hit it big throughout the 80's and 90's because their early and mid-80's work set the stage for NJS. Then, as the 90's moved more to neo-soul and hip-hop sounds, they turned the corner nicely with VR.

namepeace said:

alphastreet said:

Thanks for the clarification, everyone borrows from someone. Quincy and Teddy did it all the time too without sampling

So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

I like prince doing new jack, but can't decide if I like the style or look more from that era

When did he lift from soul 2 soul? I didn't catch that right away

Musicslave said:

namepeace said:

True, they were always clever in burying the grooves they borrowed. Heck, Prince openly kidded (or was he serious?) about writing "What Have You Done for Me Lately?"

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later.

Yeah, "Let's Wait Awhile" (from Control) has the same exact chords as "Daisy Jane"! (And I don't think I've heard "Daisy Jane" before now, either. Nevertheless, the two songs have a striking resemblance.)

[Edited 10/12/17 20:15pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

StrangeButTrue said:

Empty is an eerie premonition of a song really when you consider the prevalence of online dating and cell phones in modern times for a cut from 97 with almost trap beats (more leaning towards uk drum n bass). One of her more poignant tracks up there with Truth, Again or State of the World.

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

206Michelle said:

Musicslave said:

-

I had this tune in mind when I mentioned borrowing on "Control"....

-

-

Keep in mind that Jimmy Jam was the Pop music lover growing up. Terry indoctrinated him into the Funk later.

Yeah, "Let's Wait Awhile" (from Control) has the same exact chords as "Daisy Jane"! (And I don't think I've heard "Daisy Jane" before now, either. Nevertheless, the two songs have a striking resemblance.)

[Edited 10/12/17 20:15pm]

-

I can't remember how long ago it was when I first discovered this song from America. But I do recall having a brief moment of sighs thinking....Damn, "Let's Wait Awhile" too? I do appreciate how they used the beginning chords and then take it somewhere different with their own melody. Interporlation at it's finest. This is the advantage that producers have when they can actually play their own instruments.

alphastreet said:

namepeace said:

So did Prince. He lifted straight from Jimi Hendrix and Soul II Soul on Graffiti Bridge, which had a very New Jack-feel in some spots.

The main point I made was, and remains, that J&T were really good at it.

I like prince doing new jack, but can't decide if I like the style or look more from that era

When did he lift from soul 2 soul? I didn't catch that right away

The chorus in "Round and Round" lifts very briefly from "Keep On Movin'".

When I listened to this album a lot, 15+ years ago or so, I remember these being my favourite tracks on the album (in no particular order). I would put all of 3 (or 4 if Special and Can't Be Stopped are separated) of these songs on a top 5 list of favourite tracks from the VR.

- Together Again - I love the melody and upbeat vibe of the song. The chorus is so memorable.

- Special/Can't Be Stopped - Her vocals are great and I love the uplifting messages

- Anything - The melody is beautiful and I love the various sound effects.

Musicslave said:

StrangeButTrue said:

Empty is an eerie premonition of a song really when you consider the prevalence of online dating and cell phones in modern times for a cut from 97 with almost trap beats (more leaning towards uk drum n bass). One of her more poignant tracks up there with Truth, Again or State of the World.

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

I like "Empty." It's not one of my favourites on the album, but I love your description of it as "sonically and strangely brilliant," which I think it a perfect description of the song. And I agree with you that "Empty" is very innovative sounding; it still sounds very fresh listening to it today.

206Michelle said:

Musicslave said:

-

"Empty" was my favorite from this album. I thought it was sonically and strangely brilliant. I feel like its one of her most innovative sounds from her diverse catalog.

I like "Empty." It's not one of my favourites on the album, but I love your description of it as "sonically and strangely brilliant," which I think it a perfect description of the song. And I agree with you that "Empty" is very innovative sounding; it still sounds very fresh listening to it today.

"Empty" was definitely one of the worst songs on the album for me. I skipped past it all the time. That shuffling card noise just annoyed the fuck out of me. However, over the years, I don't skip past it nearly as much. In fact, I had my Echo play TVR the other day and just let the whole thing play through. Sonically, it was one of the most interesting tracks Janet had ever produced with Jam and Lewis.

I have to agree that it's incredibly fresh sounding today. So many wannabes are trying to be innovative and creative in their Garageband efforts, and twenty-years ago Jam & Lewis were making stuff that we hadn't heard before. It's why I've often said that Unbreakable is The Velvet Rope's sister. The former is as interesting and different for Janet as TVR was during its time.

I'd agree, Michelle, "sonically and strangely brilliant". That should be on a motherfuckin' poster!

And speaking of lifting tunes and melodies, "Together Again"'s melody is almost the same as some video game. I'm too strung out on ice cream right now to look it up, but it's funny to hear.

alphastreet said:

I think it was sonic or legend of Zelda I thought it sounded like the theme for full house or lady lovely locks (80s cartoon) though when I first heard it

I used to play Sonic Racing on Sega with my neighbors. If I recall correctly, the song that sounds like Together Again might be "Diamond in the Sky": https://youtu.be/zex_DZcEn4o.