Yes, what you said is 100% valid, Miley Cyrus is all about attention. She knew that nudity and explicit content sung by a pop girl isn't what's trendy right now -Look at Katy Perry- (That being urban trap music, and she already did that with Mike.Will.Made.It, it wasn't successful). So she tries to do soft rock music in attempt to present a new image, to show a so called 'growth'. Most of her fans are 12 year old white girls anyways, just like Taylor Swift... This is embarassing on so many levels. And oh, her psychedelic album with the Flaming Lips 'hey look at me I just did a dance pop album now I'm doing psychedelic music omg I'm so talented and diverse'.

She most definitely appropriated black culture and she knows it. It wasn't through her music that she did this, but through what she wore and what she said.

Miley Cyrus is not culturally appropriating a facet of Black America because she is criticizing a
facet (crass commercialism/consumerism) of Black America. Miley Cyrus probably sings what
she thinks is going to sell anyways, so "No," there isn't any cultural appropriation here and
there isn't a "paradigm shift" either. We should make sure we aren't being too overlysensitive
when it comes to stuff like this; I mean, couldn't we accuse Nicki Minaj of culturally appropriating
Chinese culture with that ridiculous tattoo on her arm? Miley Cyrus is simply a purveyor of
what is cool, and what is cool, for many pop culture inhabitants, is what many Black Americans
are doing.

Pop stars are in the business of manipulating the press and the public, so everything they do
is calculating (i.e., suspect)

Dasein said:

MotownSubdivision said:

And how is cashing in on another group of people's culture not appropriation?

What about Wu Tang Clan then? The name of the group and some of the members names like Method Man came from old Hong Kong martial arts flicks. They also sampled dialogue from those movies in some songs.

MickyDolenz said:

StrangeButTrue said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

Miley Cyrus is not culturally appropriating a facet of Black America because she is criticizing a
facet (crass commercialism/consumerism) of Black America. Miley Cyrus probably sings what
she thinks is going to sell anyways, so "No," there isn't any cultural appropriation here and
there isn't a "paradigm shift" either. We should make sure we aren't being too overlysensitive
when it comes to stuff like this; I mean, couldn't we accuse Nicki Minaj of culturally appropriating
Chinese culture with that ridiculous tattoo on her arm? Miley Cyrus is simply a purveyor of
what is cool, and what is cool, for many pop culture inhabitants, is what many Black Americans
are doing.

Pop stars are in the business of manipulating the press and the public, so everything they do
is calculating (i.e., suspect)

And how is cashing in on another group of people's culture not appropriation?

Wait. You said:

"Also no, I have no issue with white artists being inspired by or creating music that was originally
created by black people or anyone outside their respective skin color . . . "

So, you do have an issue with white artists being inspired by or creating music that was originally
created by Black people if they profit from it? Just because Miley Cyrus was twerking in a music
video, {one that is a parody, by the way}, doesn't necessarily mean she's appropriating Black Ameri-
culture and being exploitative. In the context of pop, taking pieces of a discrete culture and using
it to make a statement (i.e., sell something), is the norm as long as it is not harmful. I didn't see
any harm in Cyrus' parody, so my answer is still "no" and I think anybody who says "yes" is making
a mountain out of a mole-hill. It sounds like your biggest problem with Cyrus is that you think
she is being disingenuous regarding a facet of hip-hop culture, but who are you to second guess
someone's true motivations? Again: this is "pop culture" we are talking about: everything pop stars
do, in my opinion, is calculated to remain in the public sphere and in our wallets.

Much of the music (rap) today that is being created by hip-hop performers is influenced by EDM,
which is a genre of music straight outta white European dance clubs: I hope my point is well taken.

Two other points:

1) I hope Black American cultural cops, and those who are female, for example, do not straighten their
hair but wear it natural, or you're kind of a hypocrite; there are other examples here we could discuss.

2) I wished Black American cultural cops were just as hyper-focused on making sure WE (Black Ameri-
cans) produced quality/educative/informative art as we are on making sure to let others know when
those who are not Black are appropriating from us. In other words, we could benefit chiefly from po-
licing our own artists before worrying about Miley freaking Cyrus twerk videos that are parodies in the
first place!

MotownSubdivision said:

StrangeButTrue said:

I agree with Dasein. It worked right? Folks are talking. . In our globalized smartphone world we are running out of culture to appropriate.

So you agree it's appropriation then? Thank you. Maybe this wouldn't have been so negatively received had she not given such a flimsy, 1D excuse for her supposed change of heart.

You're confusing your own argument:

As long as her change of heart is true, then she's not culturally appropriating from Black American
art forms?

That doesn't make any sense, Motown. Cultural appropriation is cultural appropriation even if you
appropriate it "from the heart" and don't give flimsy, 1D excuses for your supposed change of heart.
So, I don't quite get what it is you're trying to say here: either she appropriated or she didn't. She
didn't (in my opinion), and her excuse for not liking a lot of rap music because it features and cele-
brates crass consumerism/commercialism is a point well taken even if she isn't being honest about
her feelings as she's a goofy pop star who'll say/do anything to remain relevant.

The context of pop in 2017 is to pull from other cultures. And the fact remains: Black Americans are
considered "cool," so a lot of people are going to become enamored with much of what we do culturally,
the good, and the bad; this does not mean they are (mis)appropriating, which is what I think you are
actually griping about here.

Dasein said:

It felt like window shopping to me while she was dressed up in it 3-4 years ago, but people would rather point that out than hear any criticism for the toxic masculinity that reeks in the genre.

Cinny said:

I see her as trying to appear punk. Pink is more the appropriator. Miley has zero soul.

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

You're confusing your own argument:

As long as her change of heart is true, then she's not culturally appropriating from Black American
art forms?

That doesn't make any sense, Motown. Cultural appropriation is cultural appropriation even if you
appropriate it "from the heart" and don't give flimsy, 1D excuses for your supposed change of heart.
So, I don't quite get what it is you're trying to say here: either she appropriated or she didn't. She
didn't (in my opinion), and her excuse for not liking a lot of rap music because it features and cele-
brates crass consumerism/commercialism is a point well taken even if she isn't being honest about
her feelings as she's a goofy pop star who'll say/do anything to remain relevant.

The context of pop in 2017 is to pull from other cultures. And the fact remains: Black Americans are
considered "cool," so a lot of people are going to become enamored with much of what we do culturally,
the good, and the bad; this does not mean they are (mis)appropriating, which is what I think you are
actually griping about here.

So you do think she's appropriating? Thank you for being able to admit that. And how am I confusing my own argument? I said that this might not have been as negatively received had it not been for her comments; that does not mean that she couldn't have been appropriating another culture which I was not implying. [Edited 5/30/17 6:57am]

No, she's not culturally appropriating anything in those music videos. I've said it to you three times
now; please stop twisting my words. And yes you are confusing your own argument: who cares about
whether or not you positively or negatively receive her comments?, which is a corollary of your original
post:

"Also no, I have no issue with white artists being inspired by or creating music that was originally
created by black people or anyone outside their respective skin color but this paradigm shift of Miley's
is pretty suspect IMO."

Whether or not she is being genuinely turned off by the crass commercialism she is complaining about
in Black American art forms has nothing to do at all with whether or not she is appropriating said cul-
ture. Why you're making this a component of your argument and so focused on it is confusing.

Anyways, the fact that the music video for "We Can't Stop" features Cyrus' product placement for
Beats and EOS seems to strengthen my argument that she's in this for the money and not looking to
appropriate a culture exploitatively; the music video is given via a tongue-in-cheek approach any-
ways. The more forceful criticism here could be what is hypocritical: in one music video, she's certainly
kowtowing to crass commercialism by featuring products that she endorses but if a Black entertainer
does it, it's reprehensible or worthy of criticism? That's a double standard, it seems.

MotownSubdivision said:

Cinny said:

It felt like window shopping to me while she was dressed up in it 3-4 years ago, but people would rather point that out than hear any criticism for the toxic masculinity that reeks in the genre.

People have been criticizing hip hop for years for its misogynist themes among many other things. Miley's half-assed backpedaling is just a drop in the bucket when it comes to the genre's criticisms. The thing is why do people act as though misogyny is exclusive to hip hop? Misogyny has been in pop music long before hip hop was even conceived yet Miley has no problem going right back to making that sort of music (as she inherently shouldn't). "Well... not all pop music is misogynist!" Well not all hip hop is misogynist either and Miley clinging to that excuse to justify this sudden change of hers is just another drop in the bucket of stereotyping and stigmatizing the genre. Miley's just another pseudo-feminist who claims to be such when it benefits her. She's just as bad as Taylor Swift in this regard. [Edited 5/30/17 10:07am]

Your criticism of Miley Cyrus is wayward and untenable; you're basically complaining about a rich,
privileged white American female pop star who is not culturally appropriating but rather playing off
of what is trending and en vogue - hardly worth crucifying or criticizing her over this.

But your point about the misogyny in other pop music contexts is a point well made. It seems that
people seem to only think Black American male hip-hop stars practice and celebrate misogyny but
there are tons of white rock musicians who have as well. And like I told you earlier: most pop stars
are probably going to be whatever they think you want them to be, so whether or not her feminism
and other "-isms" are true reflections of her personhood is not worth too much debate.

In other words, Motown: don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Dasein said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

No, she's not culturally appropriating anything in those music videos. I've said it to you three times
now; please stop twisting my words. And yes you are confusing your own argument: who cares about
whether or not you positively or negatively receive her comments?, which is a corollary of your original
post:

"Also no, I have no issue with white artists being inspired by or creating music that was originally
created by black people or anyone outside their respective skin color but this paradigm shift of Miley's
is pretty suspect IMO."

Whether or not she is being genuinely turned off by the crass commercialism she is complaining about
in Black American art forms has nothing to do at all with whether or not she is appropriating said cul-
ture. Why you're making this a component of your argument and so focused on it is confusing.

Anyways, the fact that the music video for "We Can't Stop" features Cyrus' product placement for
Beats and EOS seems to strengthen my argument that she's in this for the money and not looking to
appropriate a culture exploitatively; the music video is given via a tongue-in-cheek approach any-
ways. The more forceful criticism here could be what is hypocritical: in one music video, she's certainly
kowtowing to crass commercialism by featuring products that she endorses but if a Black entertainer
does it, it's reprehensible or worthy of criticism? That's a double standard, it seems.

Excuse you? You're the one twisting my words around in an attempt to needlessly argue semantics. I don't understand how what I'm saying is not getting through to you. OK, Miley misappropriated hip hop culture. You happy now? But what is the keyword? It's "appropriate" and the point still stands. The fact that you felt the need to correct me on such a minor detail is evidence that you do think Miley exploited hip hop culture which brings me to my next point... Now let's point out your confusions: You say that she used hip hop culture for the money due to a deal with Beats but that shouldn't be considered exploitative. With that you yourself are saying that she exploited hip hop culture but didn't actually exploit hip hop culture? Explain how that makes any sense. To exploit something means to take advantage of it for personal gain and that's exactly what Miley did and you yourself said so. I never mentioned Beats; you did so trying to turn this against me by saying "Black artists have commercial deals to but Miley doing it is a problem because she's white" fails. I never said I had a problem with commercial endorsements and I typically point out product placement which is most prevalent in guess what genre of music? Hip hop. Furthermore, that's deflection from the main point. I never said white artists can't have commercial endorsements, I said that Miley was (mis)appropriating black culture for profit and the very details you provided support that. The bottom line is whether or not her comments were genuine is beside the point. Miley misappropriated/ exploited a culture she knows little about. The fact that she was a party to the very thing she criticized the genre she rode to the bank for is the kicker here and her casual comments on why she dropped the gimmicks is why people are upset.

No excuse needed. But, maybe you should clearly define the phrase "cultural appropriation" and how
you're using it?

I never said Cyrus "used hip hop culture for the money due to a deal with Beats but that shouldn't
be considered exploitative." I said that was a feature of her practicing crass commercialism that is
often witnessed in hip-hop culture; I also said it was hypocritical. This is why I mentioned Beats in
the first place: she's more concerned with product placement than she is with taking a component
of a discrete culture, using it or presenting it as her own with no regard to the history of the people
who founded the culture, profitting off it and causing harm to said culture in return. Cyrus twerking
is what pop stars are doing; the "cross-pollinization/fertilization" of cultures is a component of
globalization, ain't it? So, everytime a white person adopts a practice from a culture not her own
doesn't mean she's necessarily guilty of cultural appropriation. There is no misappropriation going on
here by Cyrus at all. Instead, I think you have beef with white pop stars who like Black American art
forms and you don't want them to refer to or use those Black American art forms. Well, if that's true,
that's fucking silly!

I never said you said anything about having a problem with commercial endorsements. But Cyrus
did. Yet, she's featuring Beats and EOS in her videos; I think I was rather astute in pointing that out.
Otherwise, I think you're barking up the wrong tree and simply pissed off that I'm not falling in line
with your criticism here of Cyrus. She's simply a pop star doing pop star thangs where hite girls are
twerking and Black girls are straightening their hair. Yet, I don't see the Janet Jackson cultural
appropriation thread where we criticize her for using western music conventions and having a nose job
to look more "white" and not wearing her hair naturally? I mean, Janet Jackson isn't doing African
art forms. She's using white European conventions to sell music, so that's an appropriation, right?

Now, if you start a thread about Iggy Azalea, I'll be more than happy to blast that cultural appropri-
ation trumpet with you!

[Edited 5/30/17 11:30am]

nd33 said:

I don't see the big deal in her evolving views. She's still pretty fucking young. My views changed massively through my 20's. Keep changing, I say.

Agreed; and a great point.

Who she was yesterday is not who she has to be today. If she doesn't like the crass commercialism
that is heavily featured in hip hop/pop, then God bless her. I don't like it either; it strengthens nothing
but nihilism, which is running amok within many Black American communities.

Dasein said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Firstly, I'd like to point out that you are wrong to think that I have an issue with white people liking and enjoying black art forms. If that were the case I wouldn't be a fan of George Michael (who was influenced by the Motown sound, specifically Diana Ross/ The Supremes), The Average White Band (who could funk as well as any black group could) or listen to rock music (since it was a genre of music pioneered by us (I'm black) that white people have largely taken over). I wouldn't like Jamiroquai, Phil Collins, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Teena Marie, Bobby Caldwell, Eminem, Hall & Oates or a number of bands from The Second British Invasion if I had a problem with white artists influenced by black music and exhibiting it in their music. Pointing out that I think one person who has exploited black culture doesn't mean I'm holding all others like that person under a microscope with her. White artists have historically stolen and taken credit for the music black people have created and by saying that I am not saying that all white artists do that; I am simply stating a fact. Iggy Azalea is a far worse example than Miley and as much as I despise her, I blame T.I. for letting that minstrel monstrosity loose. However, Iggy is an extreme example of cultural appropriation, Miley (the one we're talking about) is a milder one. Miley is young and people in general change their views but let's not be naïve, she was born into the celebrity life and has more than likely been taught how to do things behind the scenes. There's no reason to assume she doesn't know certain things about the art of manipulation. She rode the urban, in your face, vulgar, raunchy shock value train long wnough and now that it no longer benefits her, she decided to get off. All well and fine (she could only do that bullshit for so long anyway) but as ahe stepped off she decided to throw the whole genre under the bus after exploiting it for the past 4 years. Her criticisms are a drop in the ocean when it comes to hip hop's notoriety and she's not exactly wrong but it's quite hypocritical and aloof for someone who is still fresh in people's minds as this girl who had no business twerking bringing it to the mainstream. She needed to shed her Disney Channel image so she decided to take just about all the negative stereotypes of hip hop and incorporate them into her stage persona to the nth degree with disgusting results. Hip hop gets plenty of negative press as it is and I am a daily critic of mainstream rap but that doesn't mean Cyrus did not exploit hip hop in some way. Yeah, most pop stars change up their look to stay fresh but this one is just a little skeptical and you'll just have to forgive me thinking so.

Okay, so you I gave you an opportunity to crow about how racially integrative you are when it
comes to listening to pop music. But, what's the difference between George Michael and Justin
Timberlake? And I do remember you disliking Justin Timberfake because you thought he was a
culture vulture.

There are a few things I don't understand from your post:

What's the "urban, in your face, vulgar, raunchy shock value train"? Are Black Americans the only
ones who have been historically in your face with vulgarity? Are we all like that? Do we own the
copyright to being unabashedly vulgar exclusively? And how does one incorporate negative stereo-
types to the nth degree?

Dasein said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

Okay, so you I gave you an opportunity to crow about how racially integrative you are when it
comes to listening to pop music. But, what's the difference between George Michael and Justin
Timberlake? And I do remember you disliking Justin Timberfake because you thought he was a
culture vulture.

There are a few things I don't understand from your post:

What's the "urban, in your face, vulgar, raunchy shock value train"? Are Black Americans the only
ones who have been historically in your face with vulgarity? Are we all like that? Do we own the
copyright to being unabashedly vulgar exclusively? And how does one incorporate negative stereo-
types to the nth degree?

I lightened up on Timberlake over the years. He himself isn't a culture vulture but he benefits from being a white artist who sings R&B oriented music. Even you have to admit that. Bottom line is you were wrong to think that I have something against white artists influenced by black music. If you can acknowledge that I like George Michael as opposed to Timberlake then there's your evidence. No, that's not what I saying. That stuff obviously is not exclusive to us but Miley still used hip hop culture to her advantage. She could've been trashy without being urban (and for the record, "urban" always traces back to us regardless of how many urban non-blacks there are). Miley isn't urban but she was clearly going for an urban audience. That's why she told her producer that she wanted something that sounded "black" and how she portrayed herseld can be viewed as what she thought of us. Look at Miley's gimmick. That was the definition of stereotyping to "nth degree". The drugs and alcohol, the sex, the partying, wearing basketball jerseys and gold chains, the twerking/ exposing clothes; it was a gimmick and she milked it. [Edited 5/30/17 16:00pm]

Yes, I agree with you: Justin Timberlake's success can possibly be attributed in some part to his
gender, sex, and racial identity. I absolutely think that if his name was Jamari Timberlake and he
was from South Chicago or Atlanta, with curly hair and Michael Jackson's nose pre-1979, then he
would be in direct competition with Trey Songz and not hailed as a direct descendant of the afore-
mentioned genius instead.

Sure; I think Cyrus is gimmicky. But, I still don't think she's being wholly inappropriate with want-
ing to put out records that appealed to urban audiences. By the way, it kinda sounds like you're
saying that only Black Americans are "ratchet" and that Miley Cyrus' ratchetness is her unjustly rip-
ping off Black Americans.

Um, ratchetness is nothing to protect. If Miley Cyrus wants to appropriate that lifestyle: "vulgar, in
your face, raunchy", then let her have it. White people can adorn and then shorn any existential guise
they want and not have to worry ultimately about being stereotyped because they can always resort
back to a WASP-y presentation. Black Americans? Well, that's something else, and that's why I
think if you're going to be sensitive about the particularities of Black American culture, then maybe
you could benefit from critiquing our own?

Dasein said:

some interesting back-and-forth between the main respondents in this thread - semantically speaking.

.

my answer to the initial question - Miley is a "cultural appropriator".

to me, the less actual talent someone has, the more they have to "appropriate" whatever is popular in that moment. had Miley grown up in Brooklyn or South Central LA and had been in a "legitimate hip-hop environment" then likely the question of cultural appropriation could be shelved. let's remember - this is the child of a moderately talented "artist" who scraped out 1 "novelty" some 20 years ago.

.

I don't think cultural appropriation is bad in & of itself; it has happened in the USA for at least the last 100 years. I do understand how many question the authenticity of such appropriation. most of the time, I think the people whose cultural trademarks are being used - they know what's real & what's not. easy example : I have never heard - & myself I have never thought - that Teena Marie was or is looked at as someone who fronted in terms of that appropriation.

.

maybe Miley has some amazing hidden talent that she has not yet showed the world: maybe is a very talented artist.. or chef.. or automobile mechanic. if music is supposed to be her "true calling" - she might have only a few years - or minutes left.

.

now that, you know.. she's had this "ephiphany" about that "misogenic aspect" of some types of rap music..