RODSERLING said:

SoulAlive said:

yeah,it appears that Sony really screwed up the promotion/singles of this album."Heaven Can Wait" has 'hit single' written all over it,and so does "Whatever Happens".These should have been singles.

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[Edited 5/29/17 13:15pm]

It was MJ who volontarily screwed up the promotion of INVINCIBLE, with refusing of appearing in music videos of his own singles, and refusing to tour worldwide.

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For the 1st single, MJ wanted UNBREAKABLE with a 6 millions dollar music video, but was eventually unable to come with a solid concept. 2 directors were fired, it would have been impossible to release the music video in due time for the release of the album.

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Sony put a final deadline on MJ and they went instead with YRMW, much more mainstream than UNBREAK, so it saved the album's sales for the first weeks.

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For the 2nd single, MJ wanted BUTTERFLIES, but Sony wanted CRY. But finally, MJ refused to appear in the music videos of those 2 singles. CRY cost 1 million dollar : what a waste !

The invisibility of MJ in his own music videos made INVINCIBLE impossible to promote.

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For the 3rd single, Sony Europe went with UNBREAK, but MJ was unable to provide a music video for it. Same thing with HEAVEN CAN WAIT, for Sony America.

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The most incredible in this sad story, is that either MJ, nor Sony wanted to release WHATEVER HAPPENS and SPEECHLESS. Too bad, because this would have been hits that people would still remember today, and it would have drawn huge sales for the album.

Most of that is bullshit fan-stories.

bluegangsta said:

RODSERLING said:

It was MJ who volontarily screwed up the promotion of INVINCIBLE, with refusing of appearing in music videos of his own singles, and refusing to tour worldwide.

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For the 1st single, MJ wanted UNBREAKABLE with a 6 millions dollar music video, but was eventually unable to come with a solid concept. 2 directors were fired, it would have been impossible to release the music video in due time for the release of the album.

.

Sony put a final deadline on MJ and they went instead with YRMW, much more mainstream than UNBREAK, so it saved the album's sales for the first weeks.

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For the 2nd single, MJ wanted BUTTERFLIES, but Sony wanted CRY. But finally, MJ refused to appear in the music videos of those 2 singles. CRY cost 1 million dollar : what a waste !

The invisibility of MJ in his own music videos made INVINCIBLE impossible to promote.

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For the 3rd single, Sony Europe went with UNBREAK, but MJ was unable to provide a music video for it. Same thing with HEAVEN CAN WAIT, for Sony America.

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The most incredible in this sad story, is that either MJ, nor Sony wanted to release WHATEVER HAPPENS and SPEECHLESS. Too bad, because this would have been hits that people would still remember today, and it would have drawn huge sales for the album.

Most of that is bullshit fan-stories.

It appears to be the truth. The fan-story was that Sony sabotaged Invincible.

RODSERLING said:

bluegangsta said:

Most of that is bullshit fan-stories.

It appears to be the truth. The fan-story was that Sony sabotaged Invincible.

Then by all means, cite some sources.

bluegangsta said:

RODSERLING said:

It appears to be the truth. The fan-story was that Sony sabotaged Invincible.

Then by all means, cite some sources.

There are no sources. Invincible flopped because it was a horrible, 00's bubble-gum pop album. It was an attempt by MJ to regain fans and popularity and he did that by trying to create #1 hits and not actual good music. But then MJ fans- that cult to which I once belonged- invented Sony had sabotaged it as if they would sabotage an album after spending 30 mill on it. Michael Jackson was creating horrible, childish music for 25 years when that album was launched but, this time he managed to outdo himself, and launch an even more horrible album. Bravo!

[Edited 6/1/17 9:53am]

ML2016 said:

I don't hear anything childish about songs like Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies or Break of Dawn?? These are fine soul/R&B slow jams that still sound timeless today. If these songs were on a Justin or Usher album, they would be the best songs on it. But there's no way either of those artists could sing those songs with as much conviction and passion as MJ.

What's childish about Whatever Happens, Unbreakable or You Rock My World? These are quality songs.

I can see why some people don't like the Disney-esque showtunes like Speechless and The Lost Children, but I still think they're beautiful songs, even if they aren't to everyones tastes.

MattyJam said:

EmmaMcG said:

ML2016 said:

There are no sources. Invincible flopped because it was a horrible, 00's bubble-gum pop album. It was an attempt by MJ to regain fans and popularity and he did that by trying to create #1 hits and not actual good music. But then MJ fans- that cult to which I once belonged- invented Sony had sabotaged it as if they would sabotage an album after spending 30 mill on it. Michael Jackson was creating horrible, childish music for 25 years when that album was launched but, this time he managed to outdo himself, and launch an even more horrible album. Bravo!

If you dislike Michael Jackson so much, why do you feel the need to post in all the Michael Jackson threads? Even creating a ridiculous thread asking if Michael and LaToya were the same people. Besides, Invincible sold really well for a "flop". Considering how much most other aging pop stars sell in comparison, I'd say Invincible sold more than could be reasonably expected. As for its quality, that's debatable. But if your opinion is that at that point he had been releasing "horrible, childish" music for 25 years, and considering Invincible was released in 2001 so 25 years prior to that covers everything from Off The Wall to History, then you are unlikely to like Invincible. Although if you think Thriller is "horrible and childish", then that probably says more about you than anything else. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I suppose. One question though. You say you once belonged to some sort of MJ cult. I'm assuming that's your way of saying that you used to be a fan. But if you think that everything from Off The Wall onwards is horrible and childish, then what Michael Jackson songs did you like? Perhaps something not so childish, like "ABC", perhaps?

I meant to say 15 years, not 25. Basically, everything from 1985 onwards. That's what I meant.

ML2016 said:

Wonderful song. One of my favs from the album. As others have said, it would of been a hit, at least in the US anyway.

I always thought it was a girl singing with Mike on the second verse, but the album credits say it's "Que" (along with Dr Freeze, who did not produce the song which is kinda odd), anyway Iam guessing that is Kenny Quiller, one of the co-writers (left from the demo?). Thats what discogs thinks anyway LOL.

Now that I listen to it again, it clearly is a dude singing with Mike LOL. Nice touch by Teddy to have him clearly on it, if only for a few seconds. It makes the second verse stand out a little I think. I like it.

Jerry Lubbocks lush strings showed Mike still used the old pro's from back in the Quincy Jones days as that dude appeared on everything back in the 80's....

[Edited 6/1/17 17:48pm]

SoulAlive said:

The slower tracks/ballads are great.The only problem with Invincible is....the uptempo tracks aren't that great.Instead of working with Rodney Jerkins,Michael should have worked with Pharrell on some kickass uptempo jams.Actually,he did work with Pharrell but foolishly rejected the tracks so a great song like "Rock Your Body" was given to Justin Timberlake instead.

I dig most of the Jerkins tracks personally and I feel he really tried hard with MJ, but yeah, "Rock your body" woulda been even better with MJ on it.

Not to derail the thread, but don't you think "Heartbreaker" is any good? I still love that song. The production and beat hit hard and that middle 8 is probably the best thing on the whole album even if it is only 10 seconds long LOL.

ML2016 said:

ML2016 said:

bluegangsta said:

RODSERLING said:

It appears to be the truth. The fan-story was that Sony sabotaged Invincible.

Then by all means, cite some sources.

I recommend you a very good read, the last Black And White magazine, released in 2009.

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You seem to ignore that MJ didn't appear in CRY, BUTTERFLIES, etc. Sony was really pissed off, as we can all understand, when MJ gave to them the CRY music video, adter spending one million in this crap.

thesexofit said:

SoulAlive said:

The slower tracks/ballads are great.The only problem with Invincible is....the uptempo tracks aren't that great.Instead of working with Rodney Jerkins,Michael should have worked with Pharrell on some kickass uptempo jams.Actually,he did work with Pharrell but foolishly rejected the tracks so a great song like "Rock Your Body" was given to Justin Timberlake instead.

I dig most of the Jerkins tracks personally and I feel he really tried hard with MJ, but yeah, "Rock your body" woulda been even better with MJ on it.

Not to derail the thread, but don't you think "Heartbreaker" is any good? I still love that song. The production and beat hit hard and that middle 8 is probably the best thing on the whole album even if it is only 10 seconds long LOL.

^^ This. Heartbreaker is a great track, and you're right, that middle eight is stunning.

Free2BMe said:

ML2016 said:

There are no sources. Invincible flopped because it was a horrible, 00's bubble-gum pop album. It was an attempt by MJ to regain fans and popularity and he did that by trying to create #1 hits and not actual good music. But then MJ fans- that cult to which I once belonged- invented Sony had sabotaged it as if they would sabotage an album after spending 30 mill on it. Michael Jackson was creating horrible, childish music for 25 years when that album was launched but, this time he managed to outdo himself, and launch an even more horrible album. Bravo!

No, MJ fans didn't invent the FACT that Sony sabotaged Invincible. It was obvious that Sony, in reality Tommy Mottola, sabotaged this album from the very beginning. This was basically confirmed when Mottola was kicked out the door, when Michael complained to people who were over Mottola. Mottola did not quit, he was fired. Btw, after Michael's murder/death, a person who was working for Sony, said that Michael was telling the truth when he said that Mottola\Sony sabotaged Invincible. The bottomline was that if Invincible failed,Michael would have to put Beatles cataloge up for sale to pay for costs incurred during production of album.

From the very beginning, Sony support INVINCIBLE. It was supposed to be released in 1999, but MJ kept on pushing back the release of the album.

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If Sony wanted to fuck MJ, they would have let him record until 2005, because they finally put a deadline in it, septembe 2001r, then the end of octopber because MJ begged them to replace SHOUT by YOU ARE MY LIFE.

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IF Sony wanted to screw up MJ, they would have released this track as the lead single.

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Instead they chose the best song off the album, YRMW, and spent 4 millions in the shooting of the video.

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Tommy Mottola was in charge of Sony America, and it was in the USA that INVINCIBLE succeed the best in term of sales and singles. I let you imagine, if BUTTERFLIES had a music video with MJ, how much it could have done for the single and the album...While in the USA the album spent six months in the charts, in Europe it stayed only 1 month and a half.

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You seem to forget that Sony chose in 1995 to buy the half of the catalogue of MJ, in exchange of the half of their catalogue. And by 2001, you really believe they wanted it back ? That's nonsense.

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They spent for YRMW 30 times the cost of an average clip for Usher or Alicia Keys. What a sabotage is that !

MattyJam said:

I don't hear anything childish about songs like Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies or Break of Dawn?? These are fine soul/R&B slow jams that still sound timeless today.

Those 3 songs you quoted we tailored for the US rnb market. Its interesting to note that in Europe these songs would have been flop.

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MJ clearly wanted to be popular again in the USA. If he had played the game of the promotion, he would have succeed. BTFLS had the same airplay in the US than YRMW (thanks to payola and the remix ordered by SOny).

I let you imagine how good for the album if there was a music video with MJ marketed on MTV.

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CRY flopped in Europe, not because it was bad, because bad songs sells, but because there was not a music video with MJ.

Hmmm, I'm not convinced it was as straight forward as that. Could MJ have done more to promote Invincible? Yes, of course. But Sony pulled a few shady moves around that time. I remember Billboard commenting at the time how strange it was that Sony never released a CD single for YRMW in the US. The song stalled at number 10 on the Hot 100, and Billboard commented how it could've easily gone at least top 5 if Sony had released a physical single for people to buy.

Sony also didn't place a single ad for Invincible when MJ's 30th Anniversary shows aired on US telly.

There were no official remixes commissioned to the clubs to help YRMW become a club hit.

It was clear from the offset that both MJ and Sony were holding back for whatever reason.

MattyJam said:

Hmmm, I'm not convinced it was as straight forward as that. Could MJ have done more to promote Invincible? Yes, of course. But Sony pulled a few shady moves around that time. I remember Billboard commenting at the time how strange it was that Sony never released a CD single for YRMW in the US. The song stalled at number 10 on the Hot 100, and Billboard commented how it could've easily gone at least top 5 if Sony had released a physical single for people to buy.

Sony also didn't place a single ad for Invincible when MJ's 30th Anniversary shows aired on US telly.

There were no official remixes commissioned to the clubs to help YRMW become a club hit.

It was clear from the offset that both MJ and Sony were holding back for whatever reason.

Major companies gave up the CD single format almost completely by 2001. Not releasing a single meant to capitalize on more albums sales.

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Remember that DON T SPEAK from No Doubt in 1998 was #1 16 weeks in radio but was never released physically.

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Physical singles market was dead in 2001. 80 % of the Hot 100 was calculated from airplay (that is to say payola). YRMW was #9 in airplay, even if it was #1 on physical sales, which is highly unlikely, it would have been #7 on the hot 100. Not much of a difference isn't it ?

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YRMW had an official remix with Jay-Z. Without the BTFLS remix with Eve ordered by Sony, I highly doubt it would have been such a hit.

RODSERLING said:

bluegangsta said:

Then by all means, cite some sources.

I recommend you a very good read, the last Black And White magazine, released in 2009.

Black And White magazine is notorious for publishing a lot of crap.

bluegangsta said:

RODSERLING said:

I recommend you a very good read, the last Black And White magazine, released in 2009.

Black And White magazine is notorious for publishing a lot of crap.

'This" is BS, "that" is crap...Could you at least be more specific please, on what is BS and what is crap ?

RODSERLING said:

MattyJam said:

RODSERLING said:

Major companies gave up the CD single format almost completely by 2001. Not releasing a single meant to capitalize on more albums sales.

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Remember that DON T SPEAK from No Doubt in 1998 was #1 16 weeks in radio but was never released physically.

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Physical singles market was dead in 2001. 80 % of the Hot 100 was calculated from airplay (that is to say payola). YRMW was #9 in airplay, even if it was #1 on physical sales, which is highly unlikely, it would have been #7 on the hot 100. Not much of a difference isn't it ?

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YRMW had an official remix with Jay-Z. Without the BTFLS remix with Eve ordered by Sony, I highly doubt it would have been such a hit.

The Jay Z remix didn't come out at the time, because Sony had blocked the Girls Girls Girls remix which featured MJ. Tit for tat. Regarding the lack of physical format for YRMW, I'm no chart expert, but I do remember reading Billboards weekly chart analysis back in 2001, which clearly implied that YRMWs lack of physical format negatively impacted its chart performance. Don't argue with me, take it up with Billboard. [Edited 6/2/17 4:29am]

I read it too, but it's irrelevant because the guys who were #1 didn't have a physical release at the time.

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Rnb Remixes are really a US-thing. The Jay-Z remix was the B-side of the Speechless promotional single. But I agree, with a better remix policy and a physical release, it would have gone higher in the charts, about #6/#7 (maybe).And I highly doubt it, because when YRMW reached his peak at #10 on the hot 100, it was on september 25th, and the physiocal release in Europe was on the october 9th ! So there was no way it could have been higher than #10 on the hot 100 anyway.

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MTV didn't play the music video a lot neither, because of the TDCAU scandal 5 years before, so I highly doubt people would have bought it massively enough to make it a #1 ; competiting with USher, Alicia Keys, etc.

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BUT if it had been released physically, it would have decreased the sales of the album. And the main goal of Sony/MJ was to make the album #1 the 1st week, in order to make it a hit. A #2 would have been humilating for the King Of Pop.

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Great vocal performance, great sound, but the lyrics are not that great, but i love it.

This song IS heaven.

MattyJam said:

I don't hear anything childish about songs like Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies or Break of Dawn?? These are fine soul/R&B slow jams that still sound timeless today. If these songs were on a Justin or Usher album, they would be the best songs on it. But there's no way either of those artists could sing those songs with as much conviction and passion as MJ.

What's childish about Whatever Happens, Unbreakable or You Rock My World? These are quality songs.

I can see why some people don't like the Disney-esque showtunes like Speechless and The Lost Children, but I still think they're beautiful songs, even if they aren't to everyones tastes.

I agree.

Not sure why anyone would call Heaven Can Wait, Butterflies or Break of Dawn "childish". They are sexy, sensual and passionate slow songs.

I've been out of the loop for a while. Just wondering, has anything unreleased been leaked in the past year?

Derek1984 said:

I've been out of the loop for a while. Just wondering, has anything unreleased been leaked in the past year?

Oh yes