I just had an argument with a friend about music making.

Now, it all started when I sent him a piece that I 'made' using FL Studio. To sum up his rant: Making music via these sort of programs is not really 'making music'. It's just silly buttons and features, and packs of sounds that are easily delivered to you, and you can effortlessly come up with any kind of chord progressions or beats by randomly handpicking those sounds...

First, I thought this was him trying to discredit any sort of effort that I make, like usual, but eventually not meaning it. This time, however, he sounded serious; His critique towards music making via programs was too harsh, I instantly recalled some of my favorite songs that were made using different sorts of sound workstations and samplers, I never payed attention to how they were made, just how they sounded, how much feeling they had. But of course they were sonically satisfying, not a glimpse of overproduction or too-much-of-everything. Clean, and to the point.

I reckon this all comes down to the fact that I'm a big fan of hip hop, IDM, tri hop, obssessed with drum pads and machine-synthesizing gadgets... I mean what could be wrong with sounds already installed in a software? What's the point of feeling like they're compromised in comparison to sounds made by live instruments? To me, knowing that For the Benefit of Mr. Kite was composed using organs and glockenspiels and strings, is equally satisfying as knowing the way Frank Ocean samples a melody, adds a chord or two, distorts it, fucks with its pitch, lays a raw vocal track, synthesizes it, just working all the ingredients to deliver his sincere feelings, all using a program or two. It's different paths, same output: Feeling and emotion. That's what matters to me, how you feel, what you wanna hear, you just can't narrow it down to one fashion of creation.

Come to think about it... this has to do maybe with my friend's constant dissatisfaction with the status quo; How computers keep taking over. He doesn't like that. There's not much space for a human touch in a digital platform. He may argue that if emotion is what you look for, then it's not intense enough using those shitty programs. Maybe he's right. Again, he has a point. But man, what Kanye West did with his voice in the last 4 minutes of Runaway? How he broke all barriers between the voice of a human and the voice of a machine, how he sounded like a prisoner of thoughts and words, the crescendo to finally create what sounds like the climax of a regretful soul? If machines do that, I surrender to how much they can do, if humans care to see through them.

I feel like every chord progression has already been done, there's a thousand rock band from the 70's who've made thousands of songs, each with a certain arpeggio. In the fifties, songwriters invented new piano melodies each day, new drum patterns were created on a lightspeed pace over those times. I just can't approach a piano with so much optimism. Hold a guitar and jam like it's gonna come out jazz-y and authentic? So much at stake, this is the new age: You take something ready, and put a spin on it.

What do you think?

[Edited 5/25/17 20:06pm]

He's stuck in the past and the world will continue moving on without him. It doesn't matter what you use to create - the only thing that matters is the result. It's the job of the artist to innovate and push music forward. People like him will complain and eventually be left behind by an ever changing world.

To me choosing the gear is like arranging the song, and it is okay if you as a listener don't like how a song is arranged. A good "workstation" song can be played back on other instruments. This goes for anything made on an MPC too!

Good music is good music.........what really matters is the talent behind it. IMO.

I'll Take the Prince's of the world anyday over some dude with a Maschine and a mic.

Talent matters.

I make electronic music and have played it to my family and friends. They all (literally), say it's shit, apart from my partner who is very supportive and seems to generally like it .

I think there is a certain snobishness from some people who think that all electronic music is bad. There are also a million other reasons why people will instantly dismiss any music, e.g. because it is by somebody they don't like; it is by their brother/cousin/friend; it is by an old person, etc. etc. etc.

I'm still in the dark about why my 'friends' dislike my music so much. I've made lots of music and within 5 seconds of playing it to them it was met with 'it's shit'. I can understand if people don't like it, but I expect people to be polite enough to listen to it first!

The important thing is if you are making music and you enjoy listening to it then fuck it. I listen to my own music more than I listen to any other artist, and I think it's great. I get a huge buzz out of making it, there's nothing better than when you lay down something that blows you away.

With regard to creating something that sounds new, you've got much more chance of doing that with software, the possibilities are infinite.

And don't worry about the limited number of chord progressions, when you combine them with all the other variables (such as instruments, beat, timbre etc.) then I don't know how you can ever become bored or not create something new.

When it comes to melodies, if you think they've all been discovered (or created, depends how you see it) then you need to read up on the mathematics of music. And if you do get bored with western music there are lots of other scales you can play with.

Is it watered down? I don't think so.

You can effortlessly come up with chord progressions if you can play a guitar or piano or you can make a new beat easily if you can play drums, but writing music is about making something that sounds good, software is just another tool to do that and it makes the process easy. I do think some people have a problem with how easy it is, that if you've not studied and practised an instrument for years but you can write music, that it is somehow watered down.

[Edited 5/28/17 15:01pm]

jaawwnn said:

I think it should be viewed as an instrument. When people mostly played piano and guitar when writing music it came out a certain way and a virtuoso of one of these could do certain things others can't. Nowadays people become virtuosos on their software or workstation but are relatively rudimentary on traditional instruments so the music they make reflects this. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the likes of Frank Ocean but I think one has to admit that what they're doing is legit, I'd rather see it as something its up to me to learn about than its up to them to stop playing. I have my doubts that these programs can ultimately express the gamut of emotions that a good piano or guitar player can but its certainly worth considering, I think at best they lend themselves well to a hybrid approach of human and computer. I suppose often my favourite bits in songs are the messy bits, the "mistakes" that are less likely to happen with a machine. Good thread though! [Edited 5/28/17 15:45pm]

I don't understand why being 'rudimentary' on a traditional instrument would be reflected in the music of an electronic musician, unless you are referring to their knowledge of music theory, which can be learnt without being able to play an instrument.

I really don't get the 'emotion' argument about electronic music. There is nuance and accent and lots of other things that can be expressed when playing a traditional instrument, but these things are also possible in electronic music. The notes are not all beeps with the same velocity and they don't have to be quantised perfectly. I understand that the emotion of playing is not the same, I can get a thrill out of playing the keyboard or guitar that can only be experienced once when creating music with software (unless it's then played on a traditional instrument). But when, listening, I don't think emotion is related to how the music was made.

Regarding mistakes, they're still possible with electronic music. Mistakes often result in fantastic new things, or whole new songs. You just don't hear them as you would with traditional recording because they are so easy to fix/re-record/incorporate, that's just the nature of the medium.

(Just writing this while listening to 'Yo' Mama' by Frank Zappa. Genius. I wish I could do that with Ableton! Or with a guitar!)

@Shawy89.......when i comes to making new music, I say use whatever the f*** you want to use!

And that's real talk. I once used earlier versions of FL Studio during my days as a Windows XP user. Since I'm a GNU/Linux user, I currently use LMMS [a free open source FL Studio knockoff] as my main music workstation.

Keep in mind that music comes from the heart. The hardware and/or software studio, instruments, and effects you use are only the tools you use to make your music from the ground up.

to me, firstly it really depends on the program itself. Very few are really allowing you to do anything at all; most of them are too limited imo. I mostly take/took it as a way to a) make blueprints of songs what are supposed to be played with mostly real instruments later, b) the best way to experiment with and create new drum patterns/beats.

TonyVanDam said:

@Shawy89.......when i comes to making new music, I say use whatever the f*** you want to use!

And that's real talk. I once used earlier versions of FL Studio during my days as a Windows XP user. Since I'm a GNU/Linux user, I currently use LMMS [a free open source FL Studio knockoff] as my main music workstation.

Keep in mind that music comes from the heart. The hardware and/or software studio, instruments, and effects you use are only the tools you use to make your music from the ground up.

Yes, I completely agree. PRINCE, the greatest musician of all time used electronics!! What do you think the beats on "Love Machine", for example, are?
However....

There's a big difference between New Jack Swing, which has singing, and Fartin Garrix and Calvin Harris.... which are HORRIFYING bullshit!

Graycap23 said:

domainator2010 said:

There's a big difference between New Jack Swing, which has singing, and Fartin Garrix and Calvin Harris.... which are HORRIFYING bullshit!

And yet, they made pretty much the same. But Calvin Harris is no Teddy Riley!

Ferret said:

jaawwnn said:

Ferret said:

I don't understand why being 'rudimentary' on a traditional instrument would be reflected in the music of an electronic musician, unless you are referring to their knowledge of music theory, which can be learnt without being able to play an instrument.

I really don't get the 'emotion' argument about electronic music. There is nuance and accent and lots of other things that can be expressed when playing a traditional instrument, but these things are also possible in electronic music. The notes are not all beeps with the same velocity and they don't have to be quantised perfectly. I understand that the emotion of playing is not the same, I can get a thrill out of playing the keyboard or guitar that can only be experienced once when creating music with software (unless it's then played on a traditional instrument). But when, listening, I don't think emotion is related to how the music was made.

Regarding mistakes, they're still possible with electronic music. Mistakes often result in fantastic new things, or whole new songs. You just don't hear them as you would with traditional recording because they are so easy to fix/re-record/incorporate, that's just the nature of the medium.

(Just writing this while listening to 'Yo' Mama' by Frank Zappa. Genius. I wish I could do that with Ableton! Or with a guitar!)

Because your musical ability is always reflected by the music you make. If you can only play basic chords on a guitar and piano but can do the most complex beat on your computer then in what world would the music you make not sound like that? I didn't say it was a bad thing. As for the rest, I guess I just like the sound of live instruments. [Edited 5/29/17 14:47pm]

I agree that if you don't have the knowledge of music theory and only know a couple of chords then it will be reflected in the music made, maybe that's where a lot of electronic music fails.

But you can have a good understanding of music theory and not be able to play a traditional instrument very well. I can make any chord you want to hear on a piano and I can make it sound perfect, but I'm not a great piano player. In software I can put lots of notes together and make them sound great, without needing the physical skill and years of practice.

I think this is where electronic music democratises music composition and is one of the great things about it.

[Edited 5/29/17 16:49pm]

TonyVanDam said:

@Shawy89.......when i comes to making new music, I say use whatever the f*** you want to use!

And that's real talk. I once used earlier versions of FL Studio during my days as a Windows XP user. Since I'm a GNU/Linux user, I currently use LMMS [a free open source FL Studio knockoff] as my main music workstation.

Keep in mind that music comes from the heart. The hardware and/or software studio, instruments, and effects you use are only the tools you use to make your music from the ground up.

Hey Tony - you OK with showing me around LMMS sometime? ...and btw, can we LISTEN, sometime, to this music that you've made...?

domainator2010 said:

TonyVanDam said:

@Shawy89.......when i comes to making new music, I say use whatever the f*** you want to use!

And that's real talk. I once used earlier versions of FL Studio during my days as a Windows XP user. Since I'm a GNU/Linux user, I currently use LMMS [a free open source FL Studio knockoff] as my main music workstation.

Keep in mind that music comes from the heart. The hardware and/or software studio, instruments, and effects you use are only the tools you use to make your music from the ground up.

Hey Tony - you OK with showing me around LMMS sometime? ...and btw, can we LISTEN, sometime, to this music that you've made...?

I'll think about it. I just gotten back in the game of making beats [as a hobby] a few months ago.

The thing now that I am hearing is this creation of "giant walls of sound" that in the long run what it is doing is creating a lot of music that you can not recreate on a stage, or if you do, is going to be a playback sing along with the record type thing, which is what you get alot of now with younger touring artists and why attendance at shows is very low, and the acts that play still rake in the $$. I mean a band like QUEEN often did this by crafting difficult songs with layered vocals, or even the Beatles after the early albums it was all about the work in the studio (though there lives were in jeopardy at shows) so touring was not a question after 65. So when I hear today a well put together song that "sounds" like a live band playing behind a singer or group and then I see them on a show playing its a huge let down LIVE because they cant hit notes and play because it was generated on a computer. SO there is room for both, LIVE will never go away no matter how easy or virtual all this stuff becomes, I will take a band like thge FOO FIGHTERS over a more "generated" band like a Maroon 5 anyday of the week.

EmmaMcG said:

Most music these days is made using these methods and because the majority of it is trash, it's got a stigma attached to it that's not really warranted. Good music can come from anywhere. You don't need to use a live band or "real" instruments. Music softwares ARE the instruments. I've made 3 albums using just Ableton (aside from one or two "real" piano parts) and I won't claim that they're works of art or anything, I only made them for my sister (long story), but they ARE music.

Ooo! Give us a listen!

What exactly is Ableton btw?

domainator2010 said:

Ferret said:

jaawwnn said:

Ferret said: Because your musical ability is always reflected by the music you make. If you can only play basic chords on a guitar and piano but can do the most complex beat on your computer then in what world would the music you make not sound like that? I didn't say it was a bad thing. As for the rest, I guess I just like the sound of live instruments. [Edited 5/29/17 14:47pm]

I agree that if you don't have the knowledge of music theory and only know a couple of chords then it will be reflected in the music made, maybe that's where a lot of electronic music fails.

But you can have a good understanding of music theory and not be able to play a traditional instrument very well. I can make any chord you want to hear on a piano and I can make it sound perfect, but I'm not a great piano player. In software I can put lots of notes together and make them sound great, without needing the physical skill and years of practice.

I think this is where electronic music democratises music composition and is one of the great things about it.

[Edited 5/29/17 16:49pm]

ah right, fair point. People who are very good at theory but can't play an instrument are rare enough, I had kind of forgotten!

trash in trash ----> Out.
trash in trash ----> Out.

trash in trash ----> Out.

EmmaMcG said:

domainator2010 said:

Ooo! Give us a listen!

What exactly is Ableton btw?

Ableton Live is a digital audio workstation. You can use it to create (in full or in part) music. I mostly use it to fill in for actual instruments I either can't play (horns, drums) or am not particularly good at (guitar). It's really good, very easy to use its basic functions. I'm not sure if you can use it on Linux though. Computer stuff isn't really my thing.

No - on Linux you'd use one of these 2:

www.ubuntustudio.org and http://download.cnet.com/...89051.html .

Ubuntu Studio includes LMMS, that Tony was saying. But I've never checked it out myself.

You'd be well advised to check em out one day. Probably save you a lot of MONEY! (I'm sure there are Linux people in Ireland who can get it installed for you and stuff..?)

So - where's your tracks?

domainator2010 said:

What instruments do you play?

I think you can make something creative and artistic regardless if its music with live instruments or digital software. However, this generation relies heavily on digital software for their music creations instead of broadening their scope by learning how to play an instrument or implementing live instruments. I think this argument can go both ways. They're some people who frown on the usage of live instruments in music which I think is absurd because live music is an essential component to what makes music what it is. I think a musician or artist should be open minded on both sides and not just rely on ONE thing to make their music. If you are a true artist than you will be open minded and use multiple methods to create your music (just something to think about it). Again, IMO, I think this generation relies to heavily on music softwares just because its easily accessible. They should be encourage to use live instruments or other components of music and saying that doesn't make someone snobbish. The reason why software music is criticized is because most of it is trash because its not creative.

[Edited 6/4/17 8:42am]