Dasein said:

jjhunsecker said:

Great post- I've said this myself many times. Beyonce is good, not the great legend her fans claim her to be. I don't see or hear anything that wasn't done earlier (and better) by Madonna or Tina Turner

I'm no fan of Beyonce, but you must place Beyonce's career in its proper context, which means
that there are some things that she may have done that are groundbreaking in 2017, but would
not translate well over to whatever Madonna was doing in 1987.

How we perceive "monumental and groundbreaking" is often contextualized. And I've said before
and I'll say it again: I think the criticism she receives here on this board is not too dissimilar from
hating the most pretty and popular girl in high school who is rich, fashionable, has some modicum
of talent, and dates the most popular boy in school. It's super easy to find her faults and reasons
why she's not as popular as Jane Doe was twenty years ago . . .

The game is structured now so that you have to work extra-hard just to sell a million units, which
was not the case for industry backed and sanctioned pop stars during the 80s and 90s. This means
Beyonce's career is pretty fucking impressive especially since the marketplace has changed so
dramatically!

To me, how much she sells or how popular she is , while impressive, is immaterial. I simply don't think her music or her performances are that great, or as great as her acolytes believe them to be

MotownSubdivision said:

The one major thing that keeps Beyonce from being on the level of a Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson or Madonna is the lack of competition she has to face. The industry has changed dramatically since her aforementioned predecessors were on top but one thing that remains a constant or at least should no matter what generation of music is the level and magnitude of high profile artists. Whitney, Janet and Madonna went head to head with artists now considered legends. They've had to contend with music from various undisputed marquee names: Prince, Michael, Bruce, George, Lionel and Phil Collins/Genesis to name a literal few. What strong, lengthy list of fellow big names has Beyonce had to compete with? Not to say there aren't any (Usher, Lady Gaga, Drake, Adele, Taylor Swift) but it's a far cry from the scope of talent her predecessors had to compete with in their heyday when it was much harder to start, much less maintain a successful career. No internet, no social media and no clickbait culture which helps an artist's popularity now while it could drastically hurt if not destroy an artist's popularity 20+ years ago. It's a vastly different climate today where in some ways, things are more difficult but in most ways, things are far easier to accomplish. Take for example the way Billboard counts streams and views as legitimate sales which is why we have Nicki Minaj and even Miley Cyrus among the female artists who have had the most charted Hot 100 songs. The new methodology has only made it easier for an artist these days to score hits. There's a way to sort all this out but as it is now, the system is a mess.

The one major thing that keeps Beyonce from being on the level of a Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson,
or Madonna is that she was born in the 80s and not the 60s.

jjhunsecker said:

Dasein said:

I'm no fan of Beyonce, but you must place Beyonce's career in its proper context, which means
that there are some things that she may have done that are groundbreaking in 2017, but would
not translate well over to whatever Madonna was doing in 1987.

How we perceive "monumental and groundbreaking" is often contextualized. And I've said before
and I'll say it again: I think the criticism she receives here on this board is not too dissimilar from
hating the most pretty and popular girl in high school who is rich, fashionable, has some modicum
of talent, and dates the most popular boy in school. It's super easy to find her faults and reasons
why she's not as popular as Jane Doe was twenty years ago . . .

The game is structured now so that you have to work extra-hard just to sell a million units, which
was not the case for industry backed and sanctioned pop stars during the 80s and 90s. This means
Beyonce's career is pretty fucking impressive especially since the marketplace has changed so
dramatically!

To me, how much she sells or how popular she is , while impressive, is immaterial. I simply don't think her music or her performances are that great, or as great as her acolytes believe them to be

I agree with this too and above everything else this is what is most important. However, the reason why I bring up stats and receipts when it comes to Beyonce is because the media always over exaggerates her commercial achievements. When you look at her commercial achievements, there not as impressive as they are often "painted to be" If she is painted to be the most commercially successful artist of today than her commercial achievements should illustrate that but hers dont. This supports the argument of why some feel she is overrated and overly praised for things she hasn't truly earned.

[Edited 4/27/17 9:16am]

jjhunsecker said:

Dasein said:

I'm no fan of Beyonce, but you must place Beyonce's career in its proper context, which means
that there are some things that she may have done that are groundbreaking in 2017, but would
not translate well over to whatever Madonna was doing in 1987.

How we perceive "monumental and groundbreaking" is often contextualized. And I've said before
and I'll say it again: I think the criticism she receives here on this board is not too dissimilar from
hating the most pretty and popular girl in high school who is rich, fashionable, has some modicum
of talent, and dates the most popular boy in school. It's super easy to find her faults and reasons
why she's not as popular as Jane Doe was twenty years ago . . .

The game is structured now so that you have to work extra-hard just to sell a million units, which
was not the case for industry backed and sanctioned pop stars during the 80s and 90s. This means
Beyonce's career is pretty fucking impressive especially since the marketplace has changed so
dramatically!

To me, how much she sells or how popular she is , while impressive, is immaterial. I simply don't think her music or her performances are that great, or as great as her acolytes believe them to be

You're missing my point:

You don't think her performances are great or "monumental" or "groundbreaking" but her acolytes
do because of context. You were probably born before or during the same time Beyonce was. Her
acolytes are obviously born much after she was.

I agree with you: she's not so "monumental" or "groundbreaking" artistically because I was born in
the 70s and grew up with Madonna and Janet Jackson. By the time the kids in the Beyhive are born,
Madonna and Janet Jackson are beginning their popularity descent, so Beyonce fills that void.

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

jjhunsecker said:

To me, how much she sells or how popular she is , while impressive, is immaterial. I simply don't think her music or her performances are that great, or as great as her acolytes believe them to be

I agree with this too and above everything else this is what is most important. However, the reason why I bring up stats and receipts when it comes to Beyonce is because the media always over exaggerates her commercial achievements. When you look at her commercial achievements, there not as impressive as they are often "painted to be" If she is painted to be the most commercially successful artist of today than her commercial achievements should illustrate that but hers dont. This supports the argument of why some feel she is overrated and overly praised for things she hasn't truly earned.

[Edited 4/27/17 9:16am]

You simply do not understand context. In the face of today's marketplace, Beyonce's "sales and re-
cepits" are justifiably considered impressive. Why? Because most recording artists are not selling like
they used to.

Most talking heads fall out of their chairs over Usher and Adele selling ten million units. Why? Because
today, you have to be really fucking spectacular to go gold or platinum! In 1987, an artist going dia-
mond is not really too much of a big deal. In 2017, it's a enormously big fucking deal!

jjhunsecker said:

ReddBlitz said:

Beyonce has consistently proven herself a consummate performer, granted, but her entire career, imo, has basically been no more than rehashing the same routines we've seen from the very respected aforementioned divas as previously mentioned in [the] article. Beyonce has yet to really and truly do anything that's as monumental and groundbreaking.

Great post- I've said this myself many times. Beyonce is good, not the great legend her fans claim her to be. I don't see or hear anything that wasn't done earlier (and better) by Madonna or Tina Turner

This is prettymuch it in a nutshell. Beyonce has not done anything groundbreaking, innovative or momentum that has changed the landscape of music or culture, therefore she will never be on the afromentioned women level.

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

The one major thing that keeps Beyonce from being on the level of a Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson,
or Madonna is that she was born in the 80s and not the 60s.

I don't think it would have made a difference. While Beyonce would have attained some degree of popularity, no way would she be on any of their levels. She would be directly competing against the very women who opened the doors for her to be who we know her as and if Beyonce were basically the same then as we know her today she would have easily gotten lost in the shuffle.

This is entirely speculative as you have no way to make this claim based upon any evidence outside of
your age and preference. That's like me saying Janet Jackson, had she been born in the 80s and not
the 60s, would get "lost in the shuffle" against the Gagas and Swifts of the world. Let's not frame JJ
as being monstrously talented and Beyonce diminutively so. They are probably equally gifted as total
recording/performance artists.

We do know and can cite evidence that Beyonce is outselling Janet Jackson recently.

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

I agree with this too and above everything else this is what is most important. However, the reason why I bring up stats and receipts when it comes to Beyonce is because the media always over exaggerates her commercial achievements. When you look at her commercial achievements, there not as impressive as they are often "painted to be" If she is painted to be the most commercially successful artist of today than her commercial achievements should illustrate that but hers dont. This supports the argument of why some feel she is overrated and overly praised for things she hasn't truly earned.

[Edited 4/27/17 9:16am]

You simply do not understand context. In the face of today's marketplace, Beyonce's "sales and re-
cepits" are justifiably considered impressive. Why? Because most recording artists are not selling like
they used to.

Most talking heads fall out of their chairs over Usher and Adele selling ten million units. Why? Because
today, you have to be really fucking spectacular to go gold or platinum! In 1987, an artist going dia-
mond is not really too much of a big deal. In 2017, it's a enormously big fucking deal!

Selling 1 million copies IMO shows that the industry is dying and is barely on life support and I don't think that is something that should be applauded. Beyonce "relevancy" is mostly reinforced through social media and has nothing to do with her music or talent at this point. YEA, going Diamond IS a big deal which is why I always cite Adele when ya'll make excuses for Beyonce. Adele did it twice that is REALLY impressive given this is currently a dying industry. So contextually, if Adele can go Diamond, why can't Beyonce? If Beyonce is suppose to be "the greatest female pop star" why can't she go diamond?

Personally hate threads like this.

Music matters to whoever it moves.

Beyonce does nothing for me, but shit if you get chills from her..... then yes she is the best to you.......

There is no absolute, threads like this are going to have people argue for and against.

mjscarousal said:

jjhunsecker said:

Great post- I've said this myself many times. Beyonce is good, not the great legend her fans claim her to be. I don't see or hear anything that wasn't done earlier (and better) by Madonna or Tina Turner

This is prettymuch it in a nutshell. Beyonce has not done anything groundbreaking, innovative or momentum that has changed the landscape of music or culture, therefore she will never be on the afromentioned women level.

This post is not true. Beyonce has done things that have changed the landscape of music and/or
culture. You're biased, for obvious reasons! I don't like her music at all and I find her to be very
annoying as a recording artist. But, that doesn't mean that I hate on a light skinned pretty black
girl for trying to do her thang and feed her family as an entertainer:


5 Ways Beyonce has Change...c Industry

Beyonce's big secret is a...me changer

[Edited 4/27/17 9:38am]

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

You simply do not understand context. In the face of today's marketplace, Beyonce's "sales and re-
cepits" are justifiably considered impressive. Why? Because most recording artists are not selling like
they used to.

Most talking heads fall out of their chairs over Usher and Adele selling ten million units. Why? Because
today, you have to be really fucking spectacular to go gold or platinum! In 1987, an artist going dia-
mond is not really too much of a big deal. In 2017, it's a enormously big fucking deal!

Selling 1 million copies IMO shows that the industry is dying and is barely on life support and I don't think that is something that should be applauded. Beyonce "relevancy" is mostly reinforced through social media and has nothing to do with her music or talent at this point. YEA, going Diamond IS a big deal which is why I always cite Adele when ya'll make excuses for Beyonce. Adele did it twice that is REALLY impressive given this is currently a dying industry. So contextually, if Adele can go Diamond, why can't Beyonce? If Beyonce is suppose to be "the greatest female pop star" why can't she go diamond?

Probably for the same reasons that Janet Jackson can't go diamond today either.

Pull your pants up; your bias is showing.

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

This is prettymuch it in a nutshell. Beyonce has not done anything groundbreaking, innovative or momentum that has changed the landscape of music or culture, therefore she will never be on the afromentioned women level.

This post is not true. Beyonce has done things that have changed the landscape of music and/or
culture. You're biased, for obvious reasons! I don't like her music at all and I find her to be very
annoying as a recording artist. But, that doesn't mean that I hate on a light skinned pretty black
girl for trying to do her thang and feed her family as an entertainer:


5 Ways Beyonce has Change...c Industry

Beyonce's big secret is a...me changer

[Edited 4/27/17 9:38am]

That is your opinion.

However, I and others are entitled to disagree and that does not mean we are "hating" on her.

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

This post is not true. Beyonce has done things that have changed the landscape of music and/or
culture. You're biased, for obvious reasons! I don't like her music at all and I find her to be very
annoying as a recording artist. But, that doesn't mean that I hate on a light skinned pretty black
girl for trying to do her thang and feed her family as an entertainer:


5 Ways Beyonce has Change...c Industry

Beyonce's big secret is a...me changer

[Edited 4/27/17 9:38am]

That is your opinion.

However, I and others are entitled to disagree and that does not mean we are "hating" on her.

What are you referring to specifically when you say "that is your opinion"?

And why do I always have to tell you that just because one has an opinion doesn't mean that another
can't point out that it is biased, and/or based upon flawed arguments? Not all opinions are worth
the same and should not be considered equally. I happen to think your opinion of Beyonce is biased
and based upon a flawed argument as you continually compare her to recording artists in the 80s
most incommensurately.

I would much rather listen to and watch Janet Jackson perform. But that is because I was born in the
70s and grew up in the 80s and 90s, and not because I think Janet Jackson is better than Beyonce.
If you ask my mom if she prefers Janet Jackson over Diana Ross, the answer would be "fucks no"!
Why? Well, because my mom was a kid/teenager during Diana Ross' hey day and is almost the same
age as Janet Jackson, not because Diana Ross is "better" than her!

It's all about context, ladies!

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

Selling 1 million copies IMO shows that the industry is dying and is barely on life support and I don't think that is something that should be applauded. Beyonce "relevancy" is mostly reinforced through social media and has nothing to do with her music or talent at this point. YEA, going Diamond IS a big deal which is why I always cite Adele when ya'll make excuses for Beyonce. Adele did it twice that is REALLY impressive given this is currently a dying industry. So contextually, if Adele can go Diamond, why can't Beyonce? If Beyonce is suppose to be "the greatest female pop star" why can't she go diamond?

Probably for the same reasons that Janet Jackson can't go diamond today either.

Pull your pants up; your bias is showing.

Janet is not being called the greatest female pop star. Janet has never been compared to Stevie Wonder or Mozart like Beyonce has

No your ass kissing is showing.

If an article is suggesting that Beyonce is the most successful when she has not garnered a diamond album (and other commercial feats) like most of her predecessors have than YES I am going to ask that question because logically the comparision is unfounded.

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

This is entirely speculative as you have no way to make this claim based upon any evidence outside of
your age and preference. That's like me saying Janet Jackson, had she been born in the 80s and not
the 60s, would get "lost in the shuffle" against the Gagas and Swifts of the world. Let's not frame JJ
as being monstrously talented and Beyonce diminutively so. They are probably equally gifted as total
recording/performance artists.

We do know and can cite evidence that Beyonce is outselling Janet Jackson recently.

To imply that Beyonce would have been on the same level as them is equally speculative. I'm 23 so my age is out of the question; preference? OK, there's may be a bit of bias but as you yourself stated, it's speculation. Either side of the coin cannot be proven and we can only agree or agree to disagree on the matter of Beyonce's hypothetical career in the 80's/90's. I personally believe that she would have been just another act with a few hits with all the talent there was at the time but that's my view. When did I say Janet was "monstrously talented"? You always say talent and popularity aren't always synomymous and while I do think Janet is a better artist than Beyonce, Janet could in fact be equal to her if not even less so yet still be the bigger star. Saying Janet would have gotten lost in the shuffle alongside today's top female names had she been born in the 80s and not the 60s would actually be the opposite of what I said about Beyonce. Beyonce outselling Janet in 2017 is a forgone conclusion and is beside the point as we're talking about whether or not she (Beyonce) would stack up to her predecessors had her career paralleled theirs. Keep in mind how loaded the 80s were with talent and how many unique, innovative and/or gifted names only experienced moderate success if any at all. Beyonce is talented, not exceptionally so but talented and is neither unique or innovative. It can go either way but considering how a good amount of the cream ended up rising to the top that decade, I think Beyonce would have been in the megastars' shadow at best and an obscure one-hit wonder at worst.

Of course it is. But my speculation is closer to being unbiased than yours. Besides: I only speculated
that we would have a better chance of comparing Beyonce to Janet Jackson had Beyonce been making
music at the same time that Janet Jackson was. Your speculation was much more of a value-
judgment.

I never said that you said Janet Jackson was monstrously talented. I simply asked that we not frame
Janet Jackson as such so as to diminish Beyonce's talent. And you misunderstood my conversing of
your attempt to place Beyonce in an 80s context: if you placed Janet Jackson in an 2010 context, we
can say the same things you're saying about Beyonce in the 80s!

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

Probably for the same reasons that Janet Jackson can't go diamond today either.

Pull your pants up; your bias is showing.

Janet is not being called the greatest female pop star. Janet has never been compared to Stevie Wonder or Mozart like Beyonce has

No your ass kissing is showing.

If an article is suggesting that Beyonce is the most successful when she has not garnered a diamond album (and other commercial feats) like most of her predecessors have than YES I am going to ask that question because logically the comparision is unfounded.

Well, I can say with some level of confidence, that Beyonce is not easily comparable to Stevie Wonder
or Mozart. But neither is Janet Jackson - and who is the fool making this comparison in the first place?

Also, I think you ought to stop thinking that album sales equals everything that can be said about a
recording artist's "greatness". Bob Dylan is considered "great" but he doesn't have gobs and gobs of
album sales, does he? I think the Smashing Pumpkins are great but they don't have hundreds of
millions of album sales. And neither does Prince have hundreds of millions album sales! So, the fact
that Beyonce does not have a diamond seller in an age when that is extremely rare doesn't mean that
you can justifiably question her greatness.

That being said: I prefer Janet Jackson for reasons already explained. I'm willing to bet you share the
same reasons, but are just dressing them up differently.

Anybody have contact info for Bouncy's people? I have bills to pay too and if I can get a few duckets for a blog posting I'm going for it too!

Who the heck is Matthew Reyes and why would his opinion hold any weight?

Dasein said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said: To imply that Beyonce would have been on the same level as them is equally speculative. I'm 23 so my age is out of the question; preference? OK, there's may be a bit of bias but as you yourself stated, it's speculation. Either side of the coin cannot be proven and we can only agree or agree to disagree on the matter of Beyonce's hypothetical career in the 80's/90's. I personally believe that she would have been just another act with a few hits with all the talent there was at the time but that's my view. When did I say Janet was "monstrously talented"? You always say talent and popularity aren't always synomymous and while I do think Janet is a better artist than Beyonce, Janet could in fact be equal to her if not even less so yet still be the bigger star. Saying Janet would have gotten lost in the shuffle alongside today's top female names had she been born in the 80s and not the 60s would actually be the opposite of what I said about Beyonce. Beyonce outselling Janet in 2017 is a forgone conclusion and is beside the point as we're talking about whether or not she (Beyonce) would stack up to her predecessors had her career paralleled theirs. Keep in mind how loaded the 80s were with talent and how many unique, innovative and/or gifted names only experienced moderate success if any at all. Beyonce is talented, not exceptionally so but talented and is neither unique or innovative. It can go either way but considering how a good amount of the cream ended up rising to the top that decade, I think Beyonce would have been in the megastars' shadow at best and an obscure one-hit wonder at worst.

Of course it is. But my speculation is closer to being unbiased than yours. Besides: I only speculated
that we would have a better chance of comparing Beyonce to Janet Jackson had Beyonce been making
music at the same time that Janet Jackson was. Your speculation was much more of a value-
judgment.

I never said that you said Janet Jackson was monstrously talented. I simply asked that we not frame
Janet Jackson as such so as to diminish Beyonce's talent. And you misunderstood my conversing of
your attempt to place Beyonce in an 80s context: if you placed Janet Jackson in an 2010 context, we
can say the same things you're saying about Beyonce in the 80s!

Speculation that's less biased is still speculation. Bottom line, neither one of us know for sure if either of our scenarios will come to past because the time for them has passed. All we can do is speculate as there are no cold, hard facts to say whether or not Beyonce would have been on her predecessors level if competing against them in their commercial prime.

[Edited 4/27/17 12:36pm]

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

I agree with this too and above everything else this is what is most important. However, the reason why I bring up stats and receipts when it comes to Beyonce is because the media always over exaggerates her commercial achievements. When you look at her commercial achievements, there not as impressive as they are often "painted to be" If she is painted to be the most commercially successful artist of today than her commercial achievements should illustrate that but hers dont. This supports the argument of why some feel she is overrated and overly praised for things she hasn't truly earned.

[Edited 4/27/17 9:16am]

You simply do not understand context. In the face of today's marketplace, Beyonce's "sales and re-
cepits" are justifiably considered impressive. Why? Because most recording artists are not selling like
they used to.

Most talking heads fall out of their chairs over Usher and Adele selling ten million units. Why? Because
today, you have to be really fucking spectacular to go gold or platinum! In 1987, an artist going dia-
mond is not really too much of a big deal. In 2017, it's a enormously big fucking deal!

Adele is anything but spectacular, Usher he is a little more impressive. Adele's sells are liike Trump winning the election, he did, just because people WERE fucked up with the establishment. Adele is all about music, not about trying to be sexy or anything, unlike most of her peers.

[Edited 4/27/17 13:20pm]

[Edited 4/27/17 13:51pm]

214 said:

Dasein said:

You simply do not understand context. In the face of today's marketplace, Beyonce's "sales and re-
cepits" are justifiably considered impressive. Why? Because most recording artists are not selling like
they used to.

Most talking heads fall out of their chairs over Usher and Adele selling ten million units. Why? Because
today, you have to be really fucking spectacular to go gold or platinum! In 1987, an artist going dia-
mond is not really too much of a big deal. In 2017, it's a enormously big fucking deal!

Adele is anything but spectacular, Usher he is a little more impressive. Adele's sells are liike Trump winning the election, he did, just because people WERE fucked up with the establishment. Adele is all about music, not about trying to be sexy or anything, inlike most of her peers.

[Edited 4/27/17 13:20pm]

"Standards have been lowered" is what I get from this.

The only people now who put up album sales comparable to those of the past are Adele and Taylor Swift and neither one (especially the latter) is spectacular. I'm an Adele fan but she's not blowing minds with her music.

MotownSubdivision said:

214 said:

Adele is anything but spectacular, Usher he is a little more impressive. Adele's sells are liike Trump winning the election, he did, just because people WERE fucked up with the establishment. Adele is all about music, not about trying to be sexy or anything, inlike most of her peers.

[Edited 4/27/17 13:20pm]

"Standards have been lowered" is what I get from this.

The only people now who put up album sales comparable to those of the past are Adele and Taylor Swift and neither one (especially the latter) is spectacular. I'm an Adele fan but she's not blowing minds with her music.

Agree. I like her, though. When We Were Young might be my favorite from her.

So what does Bey's Peabody Award for Lemonade say for stans, fans and naysayers alike?

namepeace said:

So what does Bey's Peabody Award for Lemonade say for stans, fans and naysayers alike?

That awards can be brought. She also has songwriter awards and she hasn't written a song ever. An award is no indicator of greatness or talent. Just like she has over 20 something grammys for trashy music and forgettable music.

[Edited 4/27/17 15:40pm]

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

Janet is not being called the greatest female pop star. Janet has never been compared to Stevie Wonder or Mozart like Beyonce has

No your ass kissing is showing.

If an article is suggesting that Beyonce is the most successful when she has not garnered a diamond album (and other commercial feats) like most of her predecessors have than YES I am going to ask that question because logically the comparision is unfounded.

Well, I can say with some level of confidence, that Beyonce is not easily comparable to Stevie Wonder
or Mozart. But neither is Janet Jackson - and who is the fool making this comparison in the first place?

Also, I think you ought to stop thinking that album sales equals everything that can be said about a
recording artist's "greatness". Bob Dylan is considered "great" but he doesn't have gobs and gobs of
album sales, does he? I think the Smashing Pumpkins are great but they don't have hundreds of
millions of album sales. And neither does Prince have hundreds of millions album sales! So, the fact
that Beyonce does not have a diamond seller in an age when that is extremely rare doesn't mean that
you can justifiably question her greatness.

That being said: I prefer Janet Jackson for reasons already explained. I'm willing to bet you share the
same reasons, but are just dressing them up differently.

Your missing my point. My point is that Janet doesn't get compared to artists that are out of her league like Beyonce.

I never said that album sales equates to "greatness" BUT again when talking specifically about Beyonce it is noteworthy to point out because she gets accolades for her so called"unique commercial success" whenn in reality, her commercial success is mediocre when compared to her peers let alone legends. No, album sales are not the end all be all but it does symbolize popularity and commercial success and when a artist is deemed most successful of all time or of their particular generation (like Beyonce is often deemed) it most definitly should be pointed out. She doesn't have the receipts to match or back up this hype point blank and I will ALWAYS call it out.

[Edited 4/27/17 15:47pm]

MotownSubdivision said:

Dasein said:

Of course it is. But my speculation is closer to being unbiased than yours. Besides: I only speculated
that we would have a better chance of comparing Beyonce to Janet Jackson had Beyonce been making
music at the same time that Janet Jackson was. Your speculation was much more of a value-
judgment.

I never said that you said Janet Jackson was monstrously talented. I simply asked that we not frame
Janet Jackson as such so as to diminish Beyonce's talent. And you misunderstood my conversing of
your attempt to place Beyonce in an 80s context: if you placed Janet Jackson in an 2010 context, we
can say the same things you're saying about Beyonce in the 80s!

Speculation that's less biased is still speculation. Bottom line, neither one of us know for sure if either of our scenarios will come to past because the time for them has passed. All we can do is speculate as there are no cold, hard facts to say whether or not Beyonce would have been on her predecessors level if competing against them in their commercial prime.

[Edited 4/27/17 12:36pm]

Motown, there is a difference between speculating that we are better off comparing Beyonce to
her contemporaries than we are with her predecessors because of historical context, with the
value judgment speculation that Beyonce would not be appreciated as much as her predecessors
had she been in direct competition with them. So to mention that there are no cold, hard facts
here is beside the point: my speculation is not a value judgment while yours is.

You really hate Beyoncé, don't you? i don't see you saying the same about Britney having "trashy and forgettable music" because certainly Britney and Pink's music is not better than Beyonce´s music by any means. You are hater, admit it already. Why do you waste so much time talkin about someone you despise wholeheartedly?

MotownSubdivision said:

214 said:

Adele is anything but spectacular, Usher he is a little more impressive. Adele's sells are liike Trump winning the election, he did, just because people WERE fucked up with the establishment. Adele is all about music, not about trying to be sexy or anything, inlike most of her peers.

[Edited 4/27/17 13:20pm]

"Standards have been lowered" is what I get from this.

The only people now who put up album sales comparable to those of the past are Adele and Taylor Swift and neither one (especially the latter) is spectacular. I'm an Adele fan but she's not blowing minds with her music.

No, they haven't.

Standards have simply changed. Or, put your money where your mouth is and cite evidence that
clearly delineates how pop standards have been lowered! I'm open to changing my mind if there is
a reason to!

Mind you, Madonna's music, and Janet Jackson's music reached heights not because their music
was "spectacular" in and of itself as I am sure that many of us here at the Org are incapable of
enumerating the reasons why Madonna's body of work is much more spectacular than Beyonce's
body of work compositionally.

You guys/gals are essentially revealing your age and your preference in these conversations; there
is no fucking way to "prove" that Janet Jackson is "better" than or "worse" than Beyonce musically
and/or as a performance artist. We mostly prefer Janet Jackson because most of us grew up with
her, not because Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis are inherently better songwriters than the dorkazoids
Beyonce is working with.

I also happen to think that Beyonce gets a lot of criticism by Black American women because she
is light skinned and pretty. I'm not saying that is the case here, but still, I'm just say'n . . .

214 said:

You really hate Beyoncé, don't you? i don't see you saying the same about Britney having "trashy and forgettable music" because certainly Britney and Pink's music is not better than Beyonce´s music by any means. You are hater, admit it already. Why do you waste so much time talkin about someone you despise wholeheartedly?

Who, me?

I do not hate Beyonce at all. I do not like her music. I do not like her performances. And I find
her to be very annoying as an entertainer. But I'm able to recognize that I am quite incapable of
showing how Beyonce is an inferior artist when compared to Janet Jackson, who I prefer simply
because during my formative years, she was at the height of her abilities and popularity.

In other words: my biased leanings towards Janet Jackson is recognized and because I'm honest
about that bias, I do not disparage Beyonce whatsoever. I hope Beyonce makes a gazillion dollars
and sells a gazillion albums as I have no problem with Black Americans making money and having
some type of impact upon their livelihood and society too.

Also, as a Black American male/man, she does not threaten me or my ego like she does other Black
American females/women who do not consider themselves to be equally talented and/or attractive.
But, I think you're probably speaking to Motown or Carousal.