LoveOrConfusion said:

2Pac was using gangsta rap to gain a larger audience. His aim was to flip the scipt on them (hence Makaveli). Unfortunately his life was cut short before you could see his full turnaround.

I altered just one word in your post, which raises a legitimate point. 2Pac started his career as the West Coast's answer to KRS-ONE, then he went down a path artistically and commercially that was far more dangerous.

I'd add Redman to the list as well.

namepeace said:

I'd add Redman to the list as well.

yep

BAZOOKA JOE wrappers

I'll take a stab but keep in mind that there's a great joint album out right now called "The Seven" by Talib Kweli and Styles P- 2 very underrated rappers. Others:

Rhapsody

Both rappers in Tanya Morgan

Consequence

Royce Da 5' 9"

Phonte

CoolMF said:

I'll take a stab but keep in mind that there's a great joint album out right now called "The Seven" by Talib Kweli and Styles P- 2 very underrated rappers. Others:

Rhapsody

Both rappers in Tanya Morgan

Consequence

Royce Da 5' 9"

Phonte

Tanya Morgan and Little Brother are really notable crews. I'd go with this list.

Thanks to RTJ, I think Killer Mike in particular is getting his due.

Musicslave said:

Not to butt in but well stated NP as always. That was the worst period in Hip Hop for me, period. "Consumed" was the keyword in your statement. I hated watching what was happening right before my eyes in real-time. I was furious because it seemed to senseless, wasteful, ultimately unneccessary.

Me too. I remember De La Soul tried to warn us all in Stakes Is High about where hip-hop was headed. That album was released months before 2Pac was shot.

I hated "Hit 'Em Up" at the time. I got it. I understood it. I even grooved to it. I mean, who didn't recognize and like, "Don't Look Any Further" being flipped by Pac and the Outlawz at the time? It was everywhere. But again, I (like everyone else I knew at the time) saw what was coming. Don't even mention all the media hype surrounding the "East Coast vs. West Coast" crap. While tabloids and music magazines, etc was busy exploiting the culture, two figure heads were bound to be taking out of the this completely futile picture.

-
Agreed. My sense at the time was his time behind bars and his association with Suge had a lot to do with it. And what the media did with it was in the mold of "MJ v. Prince" but with far more serious and lethal consequences. Fans of MJ and Prince weren't shooting at artists in the street like the East Coast/West Coast factions were.

I was angry at Pac's death for two reasons: 1. I missed his passion for the community through the rap game. 2. I knew (like everyone else) that it was only a matter of time before Biggie was taken out.

Indeed. Biggie's refusal to clap back at 'Pac after "Hit'Em Up" showed me he saw what was coming. And he was lost anyway.

And sadly, a million wannabes have tried to step into their shoes ever since.

namepeace said:

Musicslave said:

Not to butt in but well stated NP as always. That was the worst period in Hip Hop for me, period. "Consumed" was the keyword in your statement. I hated watching what was happening right before my eyes in real-time. I was furious because it seemed to senseless, wasteful, ultimately unneccessary.

Me too. I remember De La Soul tried to warn us all in Stakes Is High about where hip-hop was headed. That album was released months before 2Pac was shot.

I hated "Hit 'Em Up" at the time. I got it. I understood it. I even grooved to it. I mean, who didn't recognize and like, "Don't Look Any Further" being flipped by Pac and the Outlawz at the time? It was everywhere. But again, I (like everyone else I knew at the time) saw what was coming. Don't even mention all the media hype surrounding the "East Coast vs. West Coast" crap. While tabloids and music magazines, etc was busy exploiting the culture, two figure heads were bound to be taking out of the this completely futile picture.

-
Agreed. My sense at the time was his time behind bars and his association with Suge had a lot to do with it. And what the media did with it was in the mold of "MJ v. Prince" but with far more serious and lethal consequences. Fans of MJ and Prince weren't shooting at artists in the street like the East Coast/West Coast factions were.

I was angry at Pac's death for two reasons: 1. I missed his passion for the community through the rap game. 2. I knew (like everyone else) that it was only a matter of time before Biggie was taken out.

Indeed. Biggie's refusal to clap back at 'Pac after "Hit'Em Up" showed me he saw what was coming. And he was lost anyway.

And sadly, a million wannabes have tried to step into their shoes ever since.

-

De La sure did but they didn't hear them though.

-

Yeah, I didn't like the whole "Tupace Shakur Signs With Death Row" headlines. I guess they could've just left out the "Row" and they would have been prophetic. I was perfectly fine with Snoop, and everyone else that was there but I wasn't comfortable with Pac signing with Suge. I even loved the idea of Dre producing Pac records but damn, why did he have to SIGN with the label. I guess I viewed it as a combustible combination where Suge would only bring out the worst in him instead of the best.

-

The media were merely schoolground instigators who profited from their fanning the flames with chants of "FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!" But the subtext of their instigation was..."So we can make as money as possible from you kneegrows."

Run the Jewels. Tony M.

2freaky4church1 said:

NP, I disagree with you about Tupac Shakur.

I'll have to give it some more thought, however.

Dasein said:

NP, I disagree with you about Tupac Shakur.

I'll have to give it some more thought, however.

Shakur is definitely a complicated, brilliant figure. Arguably one of the most enigmatic acts in popular music history. No one take completely captures him. Regardless, I'm still sick that he's gone.

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

I actually think that, because they CHOSE not to be as prolific as the COULD have been, 3 Stacks, Mos Def and Q-Tip are underrated, but that's their doing.

I would have no problem placing them in my top five rappers of all time.

Andre 3000; Q-Tip; Biggie; Eminem; and yeah, I'm going there:


Kendrick Lamar . . .






No Rakim or Nas.....? SMH!



(2Pac is something else and transcends rap)

i'll have to say Chuck D, Black Thought and Grand Verbalizer from XClan.

Pac never makes the top 10 of what i would say are the most CREDIBLE "best MCs". He was the most "transparent" on the mic and people FELT him, so he kind of transcended the genre, but lyrically, LOTS of cats bested him

CoolMF said:

I'll take a stab but keep in mind that there's a great joint album out right now called "The Seven" by Talib Kweli and Styles P- 2 very underrated rappers. Others:

Rhapsody

Both rappers in Tanya Morgan

Consequence

Royce Da 5' 9"

Phonte

Co-sign on Phonte. The whole Little Brother early catelog is among my favorite hip-hop.

datdude said:

i'll have to say Chuck D, Black Thought and Grand Verbalizer from XClan.

He was a great MC.

datdude said:

Dasein said:

I would have no problem placing them in my top five rappers of all time.

Andre 3000; Q-Tip; Biggie; Eminem; and yeah, I'm going there:


Kendrick Lamar . . .






No Rakim or Nas.....? SMH!



(2Pac is something else and transcends rap)

I don't like Rakim. He sounds too much like NYC and I do not like NYC rappers, for some reason.

My biggest problem with Nas is that he has the worst ear of all gifted lyricists of all time: his album
production and process of selecting "beats" to rhyme over is frustrating because those tracks abso-
lutely suck!

I can't think of one Nas song where the beat was as superb as he was.

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

NP, I disagree with you about Tupac Shakur.

I'll have to give it some more thought, however.

Shakur is definitely a complicated, brilliant figure. Arguably one of the most enigmatic acts in popular music history. No one take completely captures him. Regardless, I'm still sick that he's gone.

Yes, but for such a figure, I don't think I can capture him faithfully by suggesting he was consumed
by rap.

Dasein said:

datdude said:

I don't like Rakim. He sounds too much like NYC and I do not like NYC rappers, for some reason.

My biggest problem with Nas is that he has the worst ear of all gifted lyricists of all time: his album
production and process of selecting "beats" to rhyme over is frustrating because those tracks abso-
lutely suck!

I can't think of one Nas song where the beat was as superb as he was.

WHHHHHAAAAT?????

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

Shakur is definitely a complicated, brilliant figure. Arguably one of the most enigmatic acts in popular music history. No one take completely captures him. Regardless, I'm still sick that he's gone.

Yes, but for such a figure, I don't think I can capture him faithfully by suggesting he was consumed
by rap.

Didn't say rap.

I said, the rap game.

A significant difference.

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

Yes, but for such a figure, I don't think I can capture him faithfully by suggesting he was consumed
by rap.

Didn't say rap.

I said, the rap game.

A significant difference.

Yes, you did, and yes there is a difference between the two.

But can't we argue that the "rap game" is really just an extension of the Black American experience?
I mean, the contexts of the rap game, if I understand the term correctly, is not wholly dissimilar from
the context structured elsewhere that involves the existence of many Black Americans. So, if the rap
game is this extension, then it wasn't the rap game and that particular set of circumstances, mores,
values, etc, that ultimately did Shakur in because those are really just Black American circumstances,
mores, and values.

I'm feeling this out, by the way . . .

Chip Fu

Monie Love - Full Term Love (1992)

Neneh Cherry - Buffalo Stance (1989)

Neneh Cherry - I've Got You Under My Skin (1990)

Nas, Rakim, Q-Tip, Andre 3000, DMX, LL Cool J, Heavy D, Redman, Mos Def