I totally agree. DJ Quik is HIGHLY underrated. I think Quik is actually better than Dre & Snoop, if you look @ both aspects of what he can do. Snoop admitted to a ghostwriter early in his career [D.O.C.], & Dre has taken credit for tons of music he never fully produced himself. Quik does all of his own stuff [production & lyrics].

As much as I love Quik, he was average on the mic.

MF Doom, Grand Puba, Tash from tha Alkaholiks crew, and Kelvin Mercer a/k/a Plug One. For starters.

I actually think that, because they CHOSE not to be as prolific as the COULD have been, 3 Stacks, Mos Def and Q-Tip are underrated, but that's their doing.

namepeace said:

I actually think that, because they CHOSE not to be as prolific as the COULD have been, 3 Stacks, Mos Def and Q-Tip are underrated, but that's their doing.

I would have no problem placing them in my top five rappers of all time.

Andre 3000; Q-Tip; Biggie; Eminem; and yeah, I'm going there:


Kendrick Lamar . . .










(2Pac is something else and transcends rap)

I'm a Golden Ager, so admittedly my preferences will skew pre-1990's, but off the top of my head...

* Doom - He does gets recognition, but never enough for my money. The flow and storytelling prowess hinted at in his debut verse as Zev Love X on KMD's "Mr. Hood At Piocalles Jewelry" still gets me after 26 years... and he only got better and better.

* Wise Intelligent - Wonderfully versatile emcee. And while his 5 Percenter shtick got old for me once I hit 25 or so, I do appreciate that he's spent his career dealing as much in geopolitics as in partying and chasing skirts.

* GURU - Admittedly nothing fancy about his technique, but damned if this brother's voice alone doesn't cement his place among the most compelling emcees ever to grab a mic. And it just worked sooo well with Primo laying the tracks.

* Phesto - I'm gonna go ahead and say that if Hieroglyphics' productions weren't so consistently corny and overwrought, Phesto — flow-wise — could've been recognized deservingly as, say, a West Coast John the Baptist to Nas’ Jesus.

* Jeru - I’ve always dug him. So much going for him as an emcee: voice, lyrical bars, the intellect to rhyme about metaphysics and chemical equations, yet the audacity and cred to beef with just about anyone who wanted to get raw. He’s another one, I think, whose fall from grace primarily had to do with a reliance on gimmickry and tolerance for mediocre production (once he and Premier parted ways for a time).

[Edited 4/16/17 8:42am]

I'll be blaspemous here and say I've never gotten the fascination with Pac and Biggie. I'd be happy to one day understand.

[Edited 4/15/17 22:09pm]

Lammastide said:

I'll be blaspemous here and say I've never gotten the fascination with Pac and Biggie. I'd be happy to one day understand.

[Edited 4/15/17 22:09pm]

With Biggie, it was his flow and story-telling abilities that made me like him so much. His delivery
was effortless and I thought he was very intelligent as his witticisms and punchlines were superlative.

2Pac was not a great lyricist, in my opinion; instead, it was how he magnificently and tragically made
an effort to have the lines of his artistic life and personal life blurred that was so interesting to me.
He's compelling because he's very Shakespearean in some regard and often Black American men and
Black American men who are artists are not presented with such gravitas and complexity. There's
something Nieztschean about him too as he reflects some type of reworking of an ubermensch
expresion but thru a Black American masculine lens.

Furious 5

Whodini

Digable Planets

Fat Boys

Salt n Pepa

Bo$$

Heavy D

Kid n Play

K Rino

Snow Tha Product

I'd say Weird Al is too, like the one he did on ERB

Cee-Lo

There's a bunch of better lyricists than him. But at best, Cee-Lo can steal the show from rappers like 3stacks and Big Boi just because of his charismatic delivery and original voice. He stole the show on Git Up Git Out

Dasein said:

Lammastide said:

I'll be blaspemous here and say I've never gotten the fascination with Pac and Biggie. I'd be happy to one day understand.

[Edited 4/15/17 22:09pm]

2Pac was not a great lyricist, in my opinion; instead, it was how he magnificently and tragically made an effort to have the lines of his artistic life and personal life blurred that was so interesting to me. He's compelling because he's very Shakespearean in some regard and often Black American men and Black American men who are artists are not presented with such gravitas and complexity. There's something Nieztschean about him too as he reflects some type of reworking of an ubermensch expresion but thru a Black American masculine lens.

I guess. But couldn't we identify the same eternal recurrence in most self-aware Black American males -- and certainly most self-aware Black American male artists -- who meet a tragic end? I suspect 2Pac is lionized to the extent he is not because of anything extraordinary about him, but because his Hero's Journey played out center stage at the height of the commodification of "gangsta rap"/Black urban misery... and therein by way of Pac being arguably the cashiest of cash cows in the very apparatus he raged against.

[Edited 4/17/17 6:48am]

namepeace said:

Lammastide said:

Dasein said:

2Pac was not a great lyricist, in my opinion; instead, it was how he magnificently and tragically made an effort to have the lines of his artistic life and personal life blurred that was so interesting to me. He's compelling because he's very Shakespearean in some regard and often Black American men and Black American men who are artists are not presented with such gravitas and complexity. There's something Nieztschean about him too as he reflects some type of reworking of an ubermensch expresion but thru a Black American masculine lens.

I guess. But couldn't we identify the same eternal recurrence in most self-aware Black American males -- and certainly most self-aware Black American male artists -- who meet a tragic end? I suspect 2Pac is lionized to the extent he is not because of anything extraordinary about him, but because his Hero's Journey played out center stage at the height of the commodification of "gangsta rap"/Black urban misery... and therein by way of Pac being arguably the cashiest of cash cows in the very apparatus he raged against.

[Edited 4/17/17 6:48am]

Who?

What Black American male rapper, who is fraught similarly*, is living out his "Hero's Journey" on the
US center stage now? What other Black American male rapper's life and attempts of self-discovery
and ontological structuring are we witnessing firsthand? Nobody is and no one - and that is why 2Pac

is the most interesting male figure in the history of hip hop. However, I am reluctant to refer to him
as a hero, or, maybe I need to broaden my definition of what that word can mean . . .

And it is not fair to call Shakur the "cashiest of cash cows in the very apparatus he raged against"
because 1) he never claimed his work was going to be offered for free and 2) he is only able to be
possibly viewed as such because of what transpired after his death. It reminds me of Scott Weiland's
line from the Stone Temple Pilot's song, "Adhesive":

Sell more records if I'm dead.

Interesting: do you've a problem with urban Black Americans making money off of their misery?






* displaying, most publicly, the civil war waging between his desires to be rich, and famous, and a
"n*&&a" on one hand, and a righteous Black American social activist on the other.

RJOrion said:

namepeace said:

MF Doom, Grand Puba, Tash from tha Alkaholiks crew, and Kelvin Mercer a/k/a Plug One. For starters.

I actually think that, because they CHOSE not to be as prolific as the COULD have been, 3 Stacks, Mos Def and Q-Tip are underrated, but that's their doing.

damn good choices...DOOM, Posdnuos, Tash, and Puba, ALL could have made my list too...

Thanks . . .

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

I actually think that, because they CHOSE not to be as prolific as the COULD have been, 3 Stacks, Mos Def and Q-Tip are underrated, but that's their doing.

I would have no problem placing them in my top five rappers of all time.

Andre 3000; Q-Tip; Biggie; Eminem; and yeah, I'm going there:


Kendrick Lamar . . .










(2Pac is something else and transcends rap)

Okay, but I don't think rap audiences in general would put Andre or Kamaal up there because they haven't made enough records.

The argument could be made that K-Dot is closing in on 'Pac if he hasn't passed him already. Lamar is beginning to "transcend" hip-hop.

One could make the argument that not only did 2Pac not transcend hip-hop, but the rap game in fact consumed him.

Every year I get frustrated that Blu isn't huge. Found the dude in 2007 and I just can't believe that was already 10 years ago.

.

First one I heard of his: https://www.youtube.com/w...q-crVkXcaw

.

This is the best on that LP imo: https://www.youtube.com/w...olUIf__AaQ

.

But he has been really prolific and I love all the stuff I've heard.

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

I would have no problem placing them in my top five rappers of all time.

Andre 3000; Q-Tip; Biggie; Eminem; and yeah, I'm going there:


Kendrick Lamar . . .










(2Pac is something else and transcends rap)

Okay, but I don't think rap audiences in general would put Andre or Kamaal up there because they haven't made enough records.

The argument could be made that K-Dot is closing in on 'Pac if he hasn't passed him already. Lamar is beginning to "transcend" hip-hop.

One could make the argument that not only did 2Pac not transcend hip-hop, but the rap game in fact consumed him.

Kendrick does not have the same gravitas Shakur had, although I am not suggesting KL is without
any intriguing existential complexities. But Shakur was straight out of a Shakespeare tragedy . . .

Why do you think the "rap game consumed" Shakur?

26ten said:

Every year I get frustrated that Blu isn't huge. Found the dude in 2007 and I just can't believe that was already 10 years ago.

.

First one I heard of his: https://www.youtube.com/w...q-crVkXcaw

.

This is the best on that LP imo: https://www.youtube.com/w...olUIf__AaQ

.

But he has been really prolific and I love all the stuff I've heard.

same here...thats why i laugh at the kendrick lamar hype...he's not even the best MC in his own city..

Blu & Earl Sweatshirt are both nicer than Kendrick Lamar

RJOrion said:

26ten said:

Every year I get frustrated that Blu isn't huge. Found the dude in 2007 and I just can't believe that was already 10 years ago.

.

First one I heard of his: https://www.youtube.com/w...q-crVkXcaw

.

This is the best on that LP imo: https://www.youtube.com/w...olUIf__AaQ

.

But he has been really prolific and I love all the stuff I've heard.

same here...thats why i laugh at the kendrick lamar hype...he's not even the best MC in his own city..

Blu & Earl Sweatshirt are both nicer than Kendrick Lamar

Blu and Earl are both good rappers, but both are a bit too predictable and old news compared to Kendrick. Kendrick is so much more than a rapper. He's an artist, a musician, a producer, jazzy, soulful... he's something else. Not taking anything away from those cats. Just not on the same league as Kendrick.

[Edited 4/25/17 3:18am]

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

Okay, but I don't think rap audiences in general would put Andre or Kamaal up there because they haven't made enough records.

The argument could be made that K-Dot is closing in on 'Pac if he hasn't passed him already. Lamar is beginning to "transcend" hip-hop.

One could make the argument that not only did 2Pac not transcend hip-hop, but the rap game in fact consumed him.

Kendrick does not have the same gravitas Shakur had, although I am not suggesting KL is without
any intriguing existential complexities. But Shakur was straight out of a Shakespeare tragedy . . .

Why do you think the "rap game consumed" Shakur?

His first record, 2PACALYPSE NOW, was cut from the same cloth as Boogie Down Productions, and harkened back to Gil Scott-Heron. But for his emotional, and sometimes brilliant, work he increasingly became tied to the "Thug Life" that he rhymed about. He was at the center of the East Coast-West Coast beef that dominated the rap game and often turned violent. "Hit'Em Up" remains the most explosive diss track of all time. And he was tied to Suge Knight.

He went on to live the "Thug Life" he had really only rhymed about and ultimately, on a night in Vegas, it killed him.

MF Doom is one of the most underrated rappers ever. Smoking a blunt and listening to his trippier songs always feels amazing. The guy's a crazy lyricist and his love for music and sampling extends to so many genres

Currensy gets hated on for being 'a weed rapper' but often has very clever and witty lyrics imo. He doesn't need to shout and brag - just smoothly laying out his accomplishments and adventures and his voice is pretty cool in a unique kind of way. The guy's underrated af -- he releases like 7-10 mixtapes a year. H'es the rap version of Prince

Kid Cudi reminds me a lot of Prince because of his deep vocals and moody lyrics, and mixture of rock elements. His last album was great (not as good as the first three though)

Smoke Dza, Action Bronson, Joey Badass, Rick Ross last album was slept on it had a very mature soulful music vibe and introspective lyrics.

BTW I highly recommend checking out Alchemist and Madlib if you're looking for good rap producers..those Mfs take the best samples from the most far out places and make a beat ouf of it

MF Doom - Guinnesses, Hoe Cakes, Knock Knock, Meat Grinder, Rhinestone Cowboy, Strange Ways

Madlib - Please Set Me At Ease, High, Lakers, Robes, Shame,Gamble on Ya Boy

Currensy - Gifts, Leaving The Dock, MPR, Biscayne Bay, Sixty Seven Turbo Jet, his whole 'Live In Concert' EP (THIS IS ONE OF THE WAVIEST IVE HEARD), Landed, Stash House,Payroll,etc

Blu - The Only One

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

Kendrick does not have the same gravitas Shakur had, although I am not suggesting KL is without
any intriguing existential complexities. But Shakur was straight out of a Shakespeare tragedy . . .

Why do you think the "rap game consumed" Shakur?

His first record, 2PACALYPSE NOW, was cut from the same cloth as Boogie Down Productions, and harkened back to Gil Scott-Heron. But for his emotional, and sometimes brilliant, work he increasingly became tied to the "Thug Life" that he rhymed about. He was at the center of the East Coast-West Coast beef that dominated the rap game and often turned violent. "Hit'Em Up" remains the most explosive diss track of all time. And he was tied to Suge Knight.

He went on to live the "Thug Life" he had really only rhymed about and ultimately, on a night in Vegas, it killed him.

Do you think rap misinforms its adherents of what it means to be a "man" or a "Black man"?

I'm speaking of "men" because obviously Shakur was a "man" but I'm imagining that most of rap's
adherents are Black men.

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

Kendrick does not have the same gravitas Shakur had, although I am not suggesting KL is without
any intriguing existential complexities. But Shakur was straight out of a Shakespeare tragedy . . .

Why do you think the "rap game consumed" Shakur?

His first record, 2PACALYPSE NOW, was cut from the same cloth as Boogie Down Productions, and harkened back to Gil Scott-Heron. But for his emotional, and sometimes brilliant, work he increasingly became tied to the "Thug Life" that he rhymed about. He was at the center of the East Coast-West Coast beef that dominated the rap game and often turned violent. "Hit'Em Up" remains the most explosive diss track of all time. And he was tied to Suge Knight.

He went on to live the "Thug Life" he had really only rhymed about and ultimately, on a night in Vegas, it killed him.

-

Not to butt in but well stated NP as always. That was the worst period in Hip Hop for me, period. "Consumed" was the keyword in your statement. I hated watching what was happening right before my eyes in real-time. I was furious because it seemed senseless, wasteful, ultimately unneccessary.

-

I hated "Hit 'Em Up" at the time. I got it. I understood it. I even grooved to it. I mean, who didn't recognize and like, "Don't Look Any Further" being flipped by Pac and the Outlawz at the time? It was everywhere. But again, I (like everyone else I knew at the time) saw what was coming. Don't even mention all the media hype surrounding the "East Coast vs. West Coast" crap. While tabloids and music magazines, etc was busy exploiting the culture, two figure heads were bound to be taken out of this completely futile picture.

-

I was angry at Pac's death for two reasons: 1. I missed his passion for the community through the rap game. 2. I knew (like everyone else) that it was only a matter of time before Biggie was taken out.

[Edited 4/26/17 5:40am]

Black Thought from the Roots Crew.

2Pac was using gangsta rap to gain a larger audience. His aim was to flip the scipt on them (hence Makaveli). Unfortunately his life was cut short before you could see the full turnaround.

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

Do you think rap misinforms its adherents of what it means to be a "man" or a "Black man"?

Not completely, because the Commons and Chuck Ds of the rap game have offered some counterbalance to the predominant gangsta/trap element in hip-hop. Rap music is often a large megaphone for the worst elements of American culture and sends the wrong message to "black" men *and* the larger majority about what "manhood" and/or "black manhood" is (or at least, should be).

I'm speaking of "men" because obviously Shakur was a "man" but I'm imagining that most of rap's
adherents are Black men.

Sure.