santana has always rated his own opinion a little too highly imo... he likes to put on his "in tune spiritual guru" hat and pass judgement on his peers

heathilly said:

Some people in here need to bow down and get in formation. All hail Bey-Toven.

-

-

This picture captures part of the problem with her and her worshippers (celebrities included)..... I just read an article on Billboad where Neil Portnow has to defend why she didn't win AOTY. Really? That's freakin ridiculous...

-

After Beyonce's Loss, Grammys Respond to Critics: 'Join the Academy and Be the Change You Want to See'

-

-

"What the f - does [Beyonce] have to do to win album of the year?" Adele asked rhetorically in the press room after the 2017 Grammys, where she had just won the night's biggest award for her 2015 release 25. "I voted for her," she said, almost apologetically. After Beyoncé's latest loss in the Grammys' most prestigious category - she has gone 0-3 so far in her career - the answer is increasingly unclear. Since Beyoncé released her debut solo album in 2003, Taylor Swift and Adele (arguably, her only peers besides Rihanna) have both won album of the year - twice.

-

The voters of The Recording Academy appear to have a problem with hip-hop, a situation that has created a widening racial gap between critical consensus and Grammy winners in the big four categories: best new artist, record of the year, song of the year and album of the year. In the lattermost category, only two rap-related albums (The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and OutKast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below) have won in the genre's 40-year history. Since 2000, black artists have won album of the year just twice - OutKast in 2004 and Herbie Hancock for his Joni Mitchell tribute in 2008 - even though a black artist or group with black members have been nominated every year except two. In The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop poll - a leading survey for music critics - the top albums in four of the last five years were made by black artists. (The exception, David Bowie's Blackstar, beat Lemonade by the equivalent of about 10 votes.)

-

"I don't hate the Grammys, but I didn't even watch this year for this very reason," says Stephen "Thundercat" Bruner, who contributed to Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly, which won five Grammys but lost album of the year in 2016 to Swift's 1989. "I knew this was going to happen - we have seen it."

-

Bruner's lack of surprise at Lemonade's loss was a common reaction, although many people Billboard spoke with do acknowledge that Beyoncé's album was far more musically and thematically provocative - and polarizing - than Adele's explosively popular 25, which has sold 9.2 million copies in the United States alone through Feb. 9, according to Nielsen Music. "Beyoncé delivered the record of her career," says music executive Livia Tortella. "But she was going against the biggest record from the biggest artist."

-

Still, recent wildcard winners like Beck (who beat out Beyoncé in 2015) and Mumford & Sons (ditto Frank Ocean in 2013) suggest that having the biggest record and being the biggest artist don't necessarily guarantee walking away with the gramophone, nor do they address an increasingly stark racial divide: Between 1974 and 1994, eight albums by black artists took the top prize - and three of those were by Grammy favorite Stevie Wonder.

-

"I feel that minds are more closed now," says artist-producer Helen Bruner, a current Grammy trustee (no relation to Stephen). "I believe if Stevie Wonder released [groundbreaking, politically charged 1974 album of the year] Innervisions now, he wouldn't win."

-

Yet the decision ultimately lies with the 14,000 voting members of The Recording Academy, who must have a minimum number of credits on commercially available albums (the number differs for physical and digital distribution) or one Grammy nomination, and pay their $100 annual dues in order to qualify. This means everyone from liner-notes authors to A&R reps to mix engineers to superstars are voting on the awards, a fact that helps skew the constituency older. "The voters spoke, and [the result says] there is still a generational gap when it comes to the approach of making records," adds Helen Bruner of the academy's constituency. "They'll say 'I can't play "Formation" on the piano, but I can play "Hello." ' "

-

That perception took hold long before the nominations were announced: Ocean elected not to submit his album Blonde for consideration, telling The New York Times the academy didn't "seem to be representing very well for people who come from where I come from." Though he was nominated eight times for the 2017 awards, Kanye West declined to attend. "Yes I have a problem with the Grammys," he tweeted early in 2016, calling out Recording Academy chairman/CEO Neil Portnow. "Neil, please reach out as soon as possible so we can make the Grammys culturally relevant again. We the people need to see Future at the Grammys... Not just me and [Jay Z] in a suit."

-

The Grammys have, in fact, made concerted efforts in recent years to diversify its ranks in terms of ethnicity and age, which is reflected in this year's five most-nominated artists: West, Beyoncé, Rihanna, Drake and Chance the Rapper. "You don't get to this point without a diverse and relevant voting membership," Portnow tells Billboard, citing a new requalification requirement (which comes with membership renewals) as one initiative designed to keep the constituency relevant: "Unless you're currently making music as a full-time vocation, you may not requalify as a voting member."

-

And while Portnow downplays any suggestion of racial bias in the academy's one-vote-per-member constituency - "It's more about personal taste, so it's hard for me to criticize when we see no basis that [the results] are about anything other than music, and certainly not race" - he does concede that while "we've come a long way as an organization, we're certainly not complacent or satisfied with where we are - but we also need the participation of the communities to do more. That's how democracy works."

-

Indeed, "most of the people complaining are motherf****** who don't vote!" says artist-producer Terrace Martin, a 2017 nominee (for best R&B album) and a Grammy voter. "When I go to Recording Academy events, I'm the only one there with tattoos on my neck. I'm trying to get my friends to vote. Everybody acts like they don't give a f*** about the Grammys - until the Grammys come around." Martin says he became a voting member after Lamar's 2012 album good kid, m.A.A.d city, to which he contributed, lost album of the year - which is the kind of initiative the academy wants to encourage. "[Some of] the comments I've seen come from not understanding at all how this works," says Portnow. "It's one thing to be a critic, and another to join and vote and be part of the change that you want to see."

-

Still, there's little question that Beyoncé's 2017 losses have thrown the contest's racial overtones into dramatic relief and consequently raised the specter of the Grammys disenfranching makers and fans of hip-hop, inaugurably the creative center of today's popular music. "We always want the biggest and the brightest artists to be involved," says producer Harvey Mason Jr., a former academy trustee and Los Angeles chapter officer, of the decision by Drake, Ocean, West and Justin Bieber not to attend the Feb. 12 ceremony. "I know we can't thrive as a show, as an academy and as advocates for the industry without those types of artists."

-

Ratings for the 2017 broadcast rose slightly, with the entire Knowles-Carter family in attendance and a Beyoncé performance during the telecast. But more broadly, The Recording Academy's stated mission - to reward "artistic achievement" - doesn't always seem to square with the winners' list. "Change is coming [to the industry]; there's still work to do," says Terry Jones, a producer and former trustee. "But until people are more open to that change, the results will be the same."

-

"I understand that people might feel left out," says Portnow. "But it's really simple: Participate and vote, and then you're part of the conversation. Not only do we encourage and welcome that," he concludes, "we need it."

-

Additional reporting by Gail Mitchell.

This article originally appeared in the Feb. 25 issue of Billboard.

-

-

I'm not mad at Neil. Like the Terrance Martin dude said, everybody likes to pretend they don't care about the Grammys until its time for the Grammys and they're favorite artist or someone they think should have won, doesn't win. Sounds like they probably have a diverse enough members of the academy but it doesn't seem like everyone that's more familiar with the R&B and Hip Hop categories vote. So you get what you get. STFU about Beyonce. PLEASE! They're trying to make this out to be as bad as Hillary Clinton losing to Trump. LOL! Hillary wasn't entitled or owed the office of the presidency just like Beyonce isn't owed or entitled to AOTY just because she has a project out. Geesh! It's okay people. It really is okay.

[Edited 2/16/17 6:07am]

Musicslave said:

lowkey said:

214 said:

Prince, Michael, Sly and The Family Stone, The Beatles, Dylan. By the way today i was watching some of the Lemonade videos, great videos and visually beautiful, but a little bit pretentious. Havin said that, Lemonade is indeed a great album.

is it a great album or does the visuals make it great? can you listen to the album without any visuals and hear its greatness or do you need to see it? it seemed to me that all the reviews were based on the visuals, the narrative was black pride, social justice, BLM, police brutality ,ect. however when i read the lyrics to formation the actual song has nothing to do with anything its been praised for. beyonce is the media darling of this generation but im not sure her peers really respect her musically, she gets praised because her fanbase is very intimidating, they will attack anybody who dont praise her, so you often have people backtrack on their true opinions.

I'm wondering if people are responding more to the "message" of the album (and as some suggested the associated visuals) than they are to the actual "music"

Chancellor said:

SoulAlive said:

He continued, “With all respect to our sister Beyoncé, Beyoncé is very beautiful to look at it’s just more like modeling kind of music — music to model a dress,” he said. “She’s not a singer, with all respect to her.”

This won't end well for Santana

I Love Santana and The Rock KING has a right to speak his mind, but he always praises Jennifer Lopez and her FINE but non-singing azz self...He'll never TRASH a fellow Latino/Latina Artist but he's loose with the Tongue when it comes to Negros...

Yeah, Santana can sit down on that one...

Don't know if this is relevant, but I'll put this out there : you do know that Carlos Santana was previously mariied to and currently married to Black women ? His curent wife is a drummer

jjhunsecker said:

heathilly said:

jjhunsecker said:

Don't know if this is relevant, but I'll put this out there : you do know that Carlos Santana was previously mariied to and currently married to Black women ? His curent wife is a drummer

Have you ever heard of the word compartmentalization. We really have to stop assuming since someone as a black friend or something of that nature that they don't have a condescending view for the people of certain groups. Don't be naïve.

Your point is well taken, but having a black wife and 3 children by that wife is a little deeper than simply having a "black friend" . . . no?

namepeace said:

heathilly said:

jjhunsecker said: Have you ever heard of the word compartmentalization. We really have to stop assuming since someone as a black friend or something of that nature that they don't have a condescending view for the people of certain groups. Don't be naïve.

Your point is well taken, but having a black wife and 3 children by that wife is a little deeper than simply having a "black friend" . . . no?

I would say so.

MotownSubdivision said:

BTW am I the only one who didn't care for James Corden as host? He wasn't terrible but he was more annoying than funny and many of his attempts at humor ruined the flow of the show for me. Between him and LL as host, I'll take LL every time. I've never understood the hate he gets.

I dunno, I laughed when he fell down the stairs and did his whole intro wearing one shoe.

When his dad was in the audience with the hot girl on his lap, then his mom and the hot dude.

But i watch his show often, so.....

babynoz said:

namepeace said:

Your point is well taken, but having a black wife and 3 children by that wife is a little deeper than simply having a "black friend" . . . no?

I would say so.

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

CynicKill said:

People are missing a big difference here.

Though Michael and Prince might've had big egos in real life, they rarely bored their audience with it in their art.

They didn't go on and on and on with specifics.

I think the appeal of Beyonce is that her fans can live vicariously through her confidence. It's fun.

It harkens all the way back to her Destiny's Child days and their obsession with girl power themes.

So when Beyonce brags about how much she slays, how you should bow down bitches, or boasts that she ain't thinkin bout you(boy bye), it boosts the confidence of her fans (largely female).

It's "ghetto" in the best possible way that word can be used to describe a feeling. She's sassy and brassy.

Mjcarousal I'm a little surprised you DON'T like her so much.

I think that Bouncy is a good entertainer but her material doesn't appeal to me and I get tired of looking up her ass all the time.

But I would take Bouncy over her rabid fans any day.

heathilly said:

babynoz said:

I would say so.

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

You're discussing concepts of compartmentalization in quite the absolutist tone.

No need to heath-splain, friend.

We got you.

[Edited 2/16/17 10:48am]

heathilly said:

babynoz said:

I would say so.

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

And who are you to tell me what I do or don't understand?

If YOU think that then you really don't understand Carlos Santana. You picked the wrong person to throw the race card at. His civil rights bona fides go back to perhaps before you were born?

He is not fetishizing black women if that is what you are trying to imply so I suggest that you put down the textbook for a moment and actually study his life and his record of activism to understand who he is.

His comments about bouncy may have hurt some hive members feelings, but lets not start making up stuff.


You can start here and work your way back fifty years....


http://www.billboard.com/...-at-a-time

heathilly said:

babynoz said:

I would say so.

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

And another thing.

I co-signed Namepeace because he has never been one to engage in making uninformed comments. He gives thought to his replies and makes fair, balanced observations.

babynoz said:

namepeace said:

Your point is well taken, but having a black wife and 3 children by that wife is a little deeper than simply having a "black friend" . . . no?

I would say so.

So would I ! Plus, if you read any interviews with Mr. Santana, once you cut through all the mystical gobbledegook, and he talks about his musical heroes, his personal "gods", they are men like John Coltrane, Miles Davis, John Lee Hooker, BB King, Jimi Hendrix ....notice a pattern ??

babynoz said:

heathilly said:

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

And who are you to tell me what I do or don't understand?

If YOU think that then you really don't understand Carlos Santana. You picked the wrong person to throw the race card at. His civil rights bona fides go back to perhaps before you were born?

He is not fetishizing black women if that is what you are trying to imply so I suggest that you put down the textbook for a moment and actually study his life and his record of activism to understand who he is.

His comments about bouncy may have hurt some hive members feelings, but lets not start making up stuff.


You can start here and work your way back fifty years....


http://www.billboard.com/...-at-a-time

SMH Did you not read my comment in its entirety or did you just react? I said I wasnt accusing carlos of anything I was just talk about the concept of compartmentalization. Look back at my orignial comment.

namepeace said:

heathilly said:

Musicslave said:

-

-

This picture captures part of the problem with her and her worshippers (celebrities included)..... I just read an article on Billboad where Neil Portnow has to defend why she didn't win AOTY. Really? That's freakin ridiculous...

-

After Beyonce's Loss, Grammys Respond to Critics: 'Join the Academy and Be the Change You Want to See'

-

-

"What the f - does [Beyonce] have to do to win album of the year?" Adele asked rhetorically in the press room after the 2017 Grammys, where she had just won the night's biggest award for her 2015 release 25. "I voted for her," she said, almost apologetically. After Beyoncé's latest loss in the Grammys' most prestigious category - she has gone 0-3 so far in her career - the answer is increasingly unclear. Since Beyoncé released her debut solo album in 2003, Taylor Swift and Adele (arguably, her only peers besides Rihanna) have both won album of the year - twice.

-

The voters of The Recording Academy appear to have a problem with hip-hop, a situation that has created a widening racial gap between critical consensus and Grammy winners in the big four categories: best new artist, record of the year, song of the year and album of the year. In the lattermost category, only two rap-related albums (The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and OutKast's Speakerboxxx/The Love Below) have won in the genre's 40-year history. Since 2000, black artists have won album of the year just twice - OutKast in 2004 and Herbie Hancock for his Joni Mitchell tribute in 2008 - even though a black artist or group with black members have been nominated every year except two. In The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop poll - a leading survey for music critics - the top albums in four of the last five years were made by black artists. (The exception, David Bowie's Blackstar, beat Lemonade by the equivalent of about 10 votes.)

-

"I don't hate the Grammys, but I didn't even watch this year for this very reason," says Stephen "Thundercat" Bruner, who contributed to Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly, which won five Grammys but lost album of the year in 2016 to Swift's 1989. "I knew this was going to happen - we have seen it."

-

Bruner's lack of surprise at Lemonade's loss was a common reaction, although many people Billboard spoke with do acknowledge that Beyoncé's album was far more musically and thematically provocative - and polarizing - than Adele's explosively popular 25, which has sold 9.2 million copies in the United States alone through Feb. 9, according to Nielsen Music. "Beyoncé delivered the record of her career," says music executive Livia Tortella. "But she was going against the biggest record from the biggest artist."

-

Still, recent wildcard winners like Beck (who beat out Beyoncé in 2015) and Mumford & Sons (ditto Frank Ocean in 2013) suggest that having the biggest record and being the biggest artist don't necessarily guarantee walking away with the gramophone, nor do they address an increasingly stark racial divide: Between 1974 and 1994, eight albums by black artists took the top prize - and three of those were by Grammy favorite Stevie Wonder.

-

"I feel that minds are more closed now," says artist-producer Helen Bruner, a current Grammy trustee (no relation to Stephen). "I believe if Stevie Wonder released [groundbreaking, politically charged 1974 album of the year] Innervisions now, he wouldn't win."

-

Yet the decision ultimately lies with the 14,000 voting members of The Recording Academy, who must have a minimum number of credits on commercially available albums (the number differs for physical and digital distribution) or one Grammy nomination, and pay their $100 annual dues in order to qualify. This means everyone from liner-notes authors to A&R reps to mix engineers to superstars are voting on the awards, a fact that helps skew the constituency older. "The voters spoke, and [the result says] there is still a generational gap when it comes to the approach of making records," adds Helen Bruner of the academy's constituency. "They'll say 'I can't play "Formation" on the piano, but I can play "Hello." ' "

-

That perception took hold long before the nominations were announced: Ocean elected not to submit his album Blonde for consideration, telling The New York Times the academy didn't "seem to be representing very well for people who come from where I come from." Though he was nominated eight times for the 2017 awards, Kanye West declined to attend. "Yes I have a problem with the Grammys," he tweeted early in 2016, calling out Recording Academy chairman/CEO Neil Portnow. "Neil, please reach out as soon as possible so we can make the Grammys culturally relevant again. We the people need to see Future at the Grammys... Not just me and [Jay Z] in a suit."

-

The Grammys have, in fact, made concerted efforts in recent years to diversify its ranks in terms of ethnicity and age, which is reflected in this year's five most-nominated artists: West, Beyoncé, Rihanna, Drake and Chance the Rapper. "You don't get to this point without a diverse and relevant voting membership," Portnow tells Billboard, citing a new requalification requirement (which comes with membership renewals) as one initiative designed to keep the constituency relevant: "Unless you're currently making music as a full-time vocation, you may not requalify as a voting member."

-

And while Portnow downplays any suggestion of racial bias in the academy's one-vote-per-member constituency - "It's more about personal taste, so it's hard for me to criticize when we see no basis that [the results] are about anything other than music, and certainly not race" - he does concede that while "we've come a long way as an organization, we're certainly not complacent or satisfied with where we are - but we also need the participation of the communities to do more. That's how democracy works."

-

Indeed, "most of the people complaining are motherf****** who don't vote!" says artist-producer Terrace Martin, a 2017 nominee (for best R&B album) and a Grammy voter. "When I go to Recording Academy events, I'm the only one there with tattoos on my neck. I'm trying to get my friends to vote. Everybody acts like they don't give a f*** about the Grammys - until the Grammys come around." Martin says he became a voting member after Lamar's 2012 album good kid, m.A.A.d city, to which he contributed, lost album of the year - which is the kind of initiative the academy wants to encourage. "[Some of] the comments I've seen come from not understanding at all how this works," says Portnow. "It's one thing to be a critic, and another to join and vote and be part of the change that you want to see."

-

Still, there's little question that Beyoncé's 2017 losses have thrown the contest's racial overtones into dramatic relief and consequently raised the specter of the Grammys disenfranching makers and fans of hip-hop, inaugurably the creative center of today's popular music. "We always want the biggest and the brightest artists to be involved," says producer Harvey Mason Jr., a former academy trustee and Los Angeles chapter officer, of the decision by Drake, Ocean, West and Justin Bieber not to attend the Feb. 12 ceremony. "I know we can't thrive as a show, as an academy and as advocates for the industry without those types of artists."

-

Ratings for the 2017 broadcast rose slightly, with the entire Knowles-Carter family in attendance and a Beyoncé performance during the telecast. But more broadly, The Recording Academy's stated mission - to reward "artistic achievement" - doesn't always seem to square with the winners' list. "Change is coming [to the industry]; there's still work to do," says Terry Jones, a producer and former trustee. "But until people are more open to that change, the results will be the same."

-

"I understand that people might feel left out," says Portnow. "But it's really simple: Participate and vote, and then you're part of the conversation. Not only do we encourage and welcome that," he concludes, "we need it."

-

Additional reporting by Gail Mitchell.

This article originally appeared in the Feb. 25 issue of Billboard.

-

-

I'm not mad at Neil. Like the Terrance Martin dude said, everybody likes to pretend they don't care about the Grammys until its time for the Grammys and they're favorite artist or someone they think should have won, doesn't win. Sounds like they probably have a diverse enough members of the academy but it doesn't seem like everyone that's more familiar with the R&B and Hip Hop categories vote. So you get what you get. STFU about Beyonce. PLEASE! They're trying to make this out to be as bad as Hillary Clinton losing to Trump. LOL! Hillary wasn't entitled or owed the office of the presidency just like Beyonce isn't owed or entitled to AOTY just because she has a project out. Geesh! It's okay people. It really is okay.

[Edited 2/16/17 6:07am]

Decent point

As an older person, I find it hard to grasp how someone could think there was LESS racism in 1974 than there is now (which is NOT to say it's been eliminated) . I think a Stevie Wonder today would be just as praised as he was in the 1970s. Where I DO agree where there is a divide over tastes , it involves hip-hop music, or what is perceived as related to it (such as Beyonce). Many Grammy voters are trained musicians and songwriters, and they see hip-hop as less "musical", and it's practitioners as less "skilled". Probably something similar to what Keith Richards (a man who worships Black musicians) once said : to paraphrase Keith, Blacks used to make the greatest music- Blues, Jazz, Soul, R&B, Gospel- and now it's just "pushing buttons" and "making beats"...

jjhunsecker said:

heathilly said:

Musicslave said: Decent point

As an older person, I find it hard to grasp how someone could think there was LESS racism in 1974 than there is now (which is NOT to say it's been eliminated) . I think a Stevie Wonder today would be just as praised as he was in the 1970s. Where I DO agree where there is a divide over tastes , it involves hip-hop music, or what is perceived as related to it (such as Beyonce). Many Grammy voters are trained musicians and songwriters, and they see hip-hop as less "musical", and it's practitioners as less "skilled". Probably something similar to what Keith Richards (a man who worships Black musicians) once said : to paraphrase Keith, Blacks used to make the greatest music- Blues, Jazz, Soul, R&B, Gospel- and now it's just "pushing buttons" and "making beats"...

-

-

Yeah, I kind of dismissed that Stevie comment too when I first read it. I agree with your take on the traditionalist who tend to vote a certain way. Which is why all of those contemporary urban (R&B and Hip Hop) musicians, songwriters, producers, A&R's, etc. who are members of the academy need to cast their vote during voting season and not gripe or complain afterwards.

-

And to Neil's and Terrace Martin point (I still don't know who that is yet, but I agree with him ) People need to become members to have their vote and voice heard and become apart of the process if they care so much after the awards are given out.

-

To quote a past US President, "Don't boo, Vote!"

[Edited 2/16/17 12:32pm]

mjscarousal said:

CynicKill said:

Technically she does have some monster sellers under her belt. Both The Writing's On The Wall and Survivor sold 15 and 11 million copies worldwide repspectively.

LMAO Yall are pathetic with this illogical defending of Beyonce. Why are you talking about DC when I am talking about her solo work? When MJ's sales are calculated you know damn well his J5/Jackson's albums are not included BUT we doing that with Beyonce now?

Just Stop, her sales are mediocre.

You're right we have to count Beyoncé's sales just for her solo career, and her solo career's sales are not that impressive, neither Sly and The Family Stone's sales nor Prince's, so what, does have nothingto do with the quality of their music.

Chancellor said:

jjhunsecker said:

Now Carlos has "apologized" :

The apology is noted but the damage is done...Santana's true thoughts were expressed in his original statement....The apology only came after he got feed-back...

Indeed, is stupid that he retracted, he had already made his statement.

heathilly said:

babynoz said:

And who are you to tell me what I do or don't understand?

If YOU think that then you really don't understand Carlos Santana. You picked the wrong person to throw the race card at. His civil rights bona fides go back to perhaps before you were born?

He is not fetishizing black women if that is what you are trying to imply so I suggest that you put down the textbook for a moment and actually study his life and his record of activism to understand who he is.

His comments about bouncy may have hurt some hive members feelings, but lets not start making up stuff.


You can start here and work your way back fifty years....


http://www.billboard.com/...-at-a-time

SMH Did you not read my comment in its entirety or did you just react? I said I wasnt accusing carlos of anything I was just talk about the concept of compartmentalization. Look back at my orignial comment.

Sure I read it. However, we were discussing Santana's comments and there is no logic in you bringing up compartmentalization in that context if you were not trying to apply it to him, is there?

You tried it on the low and got called on it. Using my three little words to interject that concept and concluding that I must not understand human psychology is quite a stretch.

jjhunsecker said:

lowkey said:

is it a great album or does the visuals make it great? can you listen to the album without any visuals and hear its greatness or do you need to see it? it seemed to me that all the reviews were based on the visuals, the narrative was black pride, social justice, BLM, police brutality ,ect. however when i read the lyrics to formation the actual song has nothing to do with anything its been praised for. beyonce is the media darling of this generation but im not sure her peers really respect her musically, she gets praised because her fanbase is very intimidating, they will attack anybody who dont praise her, so you often have people backtrack on their true opinions.

I'm wondering if people are responding more to the "message" of the album (and as some suggested the associated visuals) than they are to the actual "music"

People always respond to messages in music, even if we have heard that messsage over and over again, with no regarding about how naive the message can be.

heathilly said:

jjhunsecker said:

Don't know if this is relevant, but I'll put this out there : you do know that Carlos Santana was previously mariied to and currently married to Black women ? His curent wife is a drummer

Have you ever heard of the word compartmentalization. We really have to stop assuming since someone as a black friend or something of that nature that they don't have a condescending view for the people of certain groups. Don't be naïve.

I was about to say the same as soon as i read the quoted post.

babynoz said:

Musicslave said:

jjhunsecker said:

As an older person, I find it hard to grasp how someone could think there was LESS racism in 1974 than there is now (which is NOT to say it's been eliminated) . I think a Stevie Wonder today would be just as praised as he was in the 1970s. Where I DO agree where there is a divide over tastes , it involves hip-hop music, or what is perceived as related to it (such as Beyonce). Many Grammy voters are trained musicians and songwriters, and they see hip-hop as less "musical", and it's practitioners as less "skilled". Probably something similar to what Keith Richards (a man who worships Black musicians) once said : to paraphrase Keith, Blacks used to make the greatest music- Blues, Jazz, Soul, R&B, Gospel- and now it's just "pushing buttons" and "making beats"...

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Yeah, I kind of dismissed that Stevie comment too when I first read it. I agree with your take on the traditionalist who tend to vote a certain way. Which is why all of those contemporary urban (R&B and Hip Hop) musicians, songwriters, producers, A&R's, etc. who are members of the academy need to cast their vote during voting season and not gripe or complain afterwards.

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And to Neil's and Terrace Martin point (I still don't know who that is yet, but I agree with him ) People need to become members to have their vote and voice heard and become apart of the process if they care so much after the awards are given out.

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To quote a past US President, "Don't boo, Vote!" :lol:

[Edited 2/16/17 12:32pm]

I kind of feel that way about ALL elections- especially ones for more important things than who won some stupid award about music

babynoz said:

MotownSubdivision said:

BTW am I the only one who didn't care for James Corden as host? He wasn't terrible but he was more annoying than funny and many of his attempts at humor ruined the flow of the show for me. Between him and LL as host, I'll take LL every time. I've never understood the hate he gets.

I dunno, I laughed when he fell down the stairs and did his whole intro wearing one shoe.

When his dad was in the audience with the hot girl on his lap, then his mom and the hot dude.

But i watch his show often, so.....

That guy is annoying. Wich one is the hot guy? i see not hot guy.

heathilly said:

babynoz said:

I would say so.

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

You're damn right sir.

214 said:

heathilly said:

jjhunsecker said: Have you ever heard of the word compartmentalization. We really have to stop assuming since someone as a black friend or something of that nature that they don't have a condescending view for the people of certain groups. Don't be naïve.

I was about to say the same as soon as i read the quoted post.

But it does make me question if his music criticism of one specific Black woman is necessarily "racially motivated", (as some seem to imply) , especially in light of his own personl life and history of activism , and who his professed music heroes happen to be ...Again, it makes it seem as if Beyonce is beyond criticism, or one mush have some "deeper" motives if they dare to do so.

[Edited 2/16/17 13:00pm]

[Edited 2/16/17 13:03pm]

214 said:

heathilly said:

If you think that you really dont understand human psychology. People make excues or lie to themselves or make exceptions for whatever particular person they want to. Its different for that specific person because they chose that person and someone children will always be someones children. Compartmentalization is a motherfucker it will have people doing some insane mental gymnatics for whoever they deem special or different. Im not accusing Carlos of anything Im just talking about the concept.

You're damn right sir.

Finally someone with some sense.