214 said:

jjhunsecker said:

Thanks, I just want to put it all in perspective...from the very start, in 1958, the Grammys have been a pretty conservative organization (artistically, not necessarily politically). Sure, Beyonce lost (though she has 22 awards), but there are lots of people even better than her who have very few , or none, or were never even nominated ....

Prince, Michael, Sly and The Family Stone, The Beatles, Dylan. By the way today i was watching some of the Lemonade videos, great videos and visually beautiful, but a little bit pretentious. Havin said that, Lemonade is indeed a great album.

is it a great album or does the visuals make it great? can you listen to the album without any visuals and hear its greatness or do you need to see it? it seemed to me that all the reviews were based on the visuals, the narrative was black pride, social justice, BLM, police brutality ,ect. however when i read the lyrics to formation the actual song has nothing to do with anything its been praised for. beyonce is the media darling of this generation but im not sure her peers really respect her musically, she gets praised because her fanbase is very intimidating, they will attack anybody who dont praise her, so you often have people backtrack on their true opinions.

lowkey said:

214 said:

Prince, Michael, Sly and The Family Stone, The Beatles, Dylan. By the way today i was watching some of the Lemonade videos, great videos and visually beautiful, but a little bit pretentious. Havin said that, Lemonade is indeed a great album.

is it a great album or does the visuals make it great? can you listen to the album without any visuals and hear its greatness or do you need to see it? it seemed to me that all the reviews were based on the visuals, the narrative was black pride, social justice, BLM, police brutality ,ect. however when i read the lyrics to formation the actual song has nothing to do with anything its been praised for. beyonce is the media darling of this generation but im not sure her peers really respect her musically, she gets praised because her fanbase is very intimidating, they will attack anybody who dont praise her, so you often have people backtrack on their true opinions.

To be honest its a 50/50 thing the visuals are crucial to the music and vice versa to get the whole experince. Its a visual album not an album with music videos.

214 said:

IstenSzek said:

duh. she's obviously a good singer. all this comparing one performer to another.

She really is, beautiful performance, just don't tell mjcarousel

[Edited 2/15/17 16:10pm]

IstenSzek said:

214 said:

She really is, beautiful performance, just don't tell mjcarousel

[Edited 2/15/17 16:10pm]

Not only that, Lemonade is a wonderful album and deserving of the Grammy among the 5 albums nominated. Rich, Beautiful, Strong, Confident, Good Singer, and now can even be considered a Creative Artist after her last two albums Ouch, this development must really enrage the haters. Too much to envy. By the way, I have only her last album so I am not historically a Bey defender or attacker.

IstenSzek said:

duh. she's obviously a good singer. all this comparing one performer to another.

I can't believe some of yall are PRINCE fans, very suspect.

Don't yall know the difference between being a vocalist and SANGER? Girls in my church choir can SANG better than that! Beyonce is a technical singer with an average range. Her tone is flat nd nothing unique. ABOVE everything else, she doesn't emote when she sings and she lacks soul. This girl is overrated. Ledisi and Fantasia would sing circles around her. Beyonce "singing" is a dime a dozen, NEXT?

SoulAlive said:

“I think Adele won because she can sing,” Santana said in an interview to the New Zealand Herald. “She doesn’t bring all the dancers and props, she can just stand there and she just stood there and sang the song and that’s it, and this is why she wins.”

It gets worse.

He continued, “With all respect to our sister Beyoncé, Beyoncé is very beautiful to look at it’s just more like modeling kind of music — music to model a dress,” he said. “She’s not a singer, with all respect to her.”

This won't end well for Santana

Not a single lie told, although on twitter he retracted his statements.

cherishtheday said:

Goodness, Carlos that was all kinds of wrongs. Come on now . I am not the fan of Beyonce I once was but she is talented. It's okay not to like her music or find her overrated but the woman can sing. I think this is left over grievance from last year's Super Bowl. He seemed upset that Beyonce got the chance to perform again and Bay Area artists didn't get the opportunity.

The recent Grammy performance was visually exquisite, but I found it overindulgent. Most of all, I found the music boring and unforgettable.

Her singing is nothing special and nothing exceptional. She has limited range and average tone. She is a Descent vocalist but average singer. There are plenty of better singers than her.

I think Santana was just trying to say that Beyonce puts on a show and is image focus while Adele is a an artist who relies mostly on her voice to entertain and Santana is right.

mjscarousal said:

IstenSzek said:

duh. she's obviously a good singer. all this comparing one performer to another.

I can't believe some of yall are PRINCE fans, very suspect.

Don't yall know the difference between being a vocalist and SANGER? Girls in my church choir can SANG better than that! Beyonce is a technical singer with an average range. Her tone is flat nd nothing unique. ABOVE everything else, she doesn't emote when she sings and she lacks soul. This girl is overrated. Ledisi and Fantasia would sing circles around her. Beyonce "singing" is a dime a dozen, NEXT?

SoulAlive said:

I think Carlos Santana feels like many people do: Beyoncé is OVERRATED! Does she really deserve multiple Grammys every time she puts out a new album?! C'mon now! The Grammy voters act like she puts out a 'Thriller' or 'Purple Rain' every time,lol.It's ridiculous.

He is obviously not a fan and that is okay. Everyone is not obligated to like her. People are tired of her.It is ridiculous that if you don't worship or praise Beyonce as a Jesus Christ you have your life threatened, called a hater or crazy.

heathilly said:

mjscarousal said:

I can't believe some of yall are PRINCE fans, very suspect.

Don't yall know the difference between being a vocalist and SANGER? Girls in my church choir can SANG better than that! Beyonce is a technical singer with an average range. Her tone is flat nd nothing unique. ABOVE everything else, she doesn't emote when she sings and she lacks soul. This girl is overrated. Ledisi and Fantasia would sing circles around her. Beyonce "singing" is a dime a dozen, NEXT?

Probably the best post here. So what are people praising when they praise Beyonce? There are tons of women in churches around America who can sing better than Beyonce, she's a dancer who dances with no actual dance steps (nobody seems to point this out) and she doesn't write/compose her own music.

She has a great stage presence though; I will give her that.

[Edited 2/15/17 18:46pm]

[Edited 2/15/17 18:46pm]

IstenSzek said:

duh. she's obviously a good singer. all this comparing one performer to another.

lowkey said:

214 said:

Prince, Michael, Sly and The Family Stone, The Beatles, Dylan. By the way today i was watching some of the Lemonade videos, great videos and visually beautiful, but a little bit pretentious. Havin said that, Lemonade is indeed a great album.

is it a great album or does the visuals make it great? can you listen to the album without any visuals and hear its greatness or do you need to see it? it seemed to me that all the reviews were based on the visuals, the narrative was black pride, social justice, BLM, police brutality ,ect. however when i read the lyrics to formation the actual song has nothing to do with anything its been praised for. beyonce is the media darling of this generation but im not sure her peers really respect her musically, she gets praised because her fanbase is very intimidating, they will attack anybody who dont praise her, so you often have people backtrack on their true opinions.

I don't need to watch the videos, i have already said that before watchin the videos.

mjscarousal said:

SoulAlive said:

I think Carlos Santana feels like many people do: Beyoncé is OVERRATED! Does she really deserve multiple Grammys every time she puts out a new album?! C'mon now! The Grammy voters act like she puts out a 'Thriller' or 'Purple Rain' every time,lol.It's ridiculous.

He is obviously not a fan and that is okay. Everyone is not obligated to like her. People are tired of her.It is ridiculous that if you don't worship or praise Beyonce as a Jesus Christ you have your life threatened, called a hater or crazy.

We tried, but you did not understand, sorry but you got no more chances. Or you are with Queen B or you're not, and you clearly are not. (This is meant to be a joke)

mnbvc said:

heathilly said:

Probably the best post here. So what are people praising when they praise Beyonce? There are tons of women in churches around America who can sing better than Beyonce, she's a dancer who dances with no actual dance steps (nobody seems to point this out) and she doesn't write/compose her own music.

She has a great stage presence though; I will give her that.

[Edited 2/15/17 18:46pm]

[Edited 2/15/17 18:46pm]

IMO, its mostly because of her looks and the spectacle around who she is. Its not her singing or the music or even the performances. She is a media star. I agree she has some stage prescence....however, when you really break it down, Beyonce really is no different than Rihanna in terms of talent. Take away the big lights, the back up dancers, gimmicks and put clothes on her, do you think people would still be entertained by Beyonce "talent"? Hec no! That is why I respect what Lady Gaga did. She proved to everyone that she has RAW talent and doesn't need those extra things to compensate. I find Lady Gaga to be way more talented than Beyonce but because she is not as attractive she doesn't get as much attention. She is a better singer, artist and performer than Beyonce IMO. The only thing she is average in is her dancing but to be fair so is Beyonce.

[Edited 2/15/17 19:23pm]

Carlos speaks the truth!! I bet that there are many others who agree with him,but are too afraid to say so.They don't want to suffer a backlash from the Bey Hive Her fans are already at war with Carlos,lol

Well I think everyone made good points on this matter but a more pressing question.
Is Bruno mars this generations Lenny kravitz?
Both multi instrumentalist
Both wear their inspirations on their face.
Both are accused of being incapable of coming up with 1 original musical idea.
Discuss...
Also will Bruno win Grammys for 24k Magic?
[Edited 2/15/17 19:59pm]

mjscarousal said:

IstenSzek said:

duh. she's obviously a good singer. all this comparing one performer to another.

I can't believe some of yall are PRINCE fans, very suspect.

Don't yall know the difference between being a vocalist and SANGER? Girls in my church choir can SANG better than that! Beyonce is a technical singer with an average range. Her tone is flat nd nothing unique. ABOVE everything else, she doesn't emote when she sings and she lacks soul. This girl is overrated. Ledisi and Fantasia would sing circles around her. Beyonce "singing" is a dime a dozen, NEXT?

Don't totally disagree with you here, though the best church gospel choir singers comparison would slay most contemporary singers. What was striking to me about Lemonade was that her voice did convey a lot of emotion compared to her previous hits (haven't heard the albums). It is much less generic than usual too. Have you truly gave the album an open listen? I know that you and i agree on both Rhi Rhi's anti and Lady Gaga's talent, so i am surprised was are so divergent on this album. Again, I have never put her into my favorite 100 musical artists, but I honestly have been impressed by the album.

[Edited 2/15/17 20:18pm]

gandorb said:

mjscarousal said:

I can't believe some of yall are PRINCE fans, very suspect.

Don't yall know the difference between being a vocalist and SANGER? Girls in my church choir can SANG better than that! Beyonce is a technical singer with an average range. Her tone is flat nd nothing unique. ABOVE everything else, she doesn't emote when she sings and she lacks soul. This girl is overrated. Ledisi and Fantasia would sing circles around her. Beyonce "singing" is a dime a dozen, NEXT?

Don't totally disagree with you here, though the best church gospel choir singers comparison would slay most contemporary singers. What was striking to me about Lemonade was that her voice did convey a lot of emotion compared to her previous hits (haven't heard the albums). It is much less generic than usual too. Have you truly gave the album an open listen? I know that you and i agree on both Rhi Rhi's anti and Lady Gaga's talent, so i am surprised was are so divergent on this album. Again, I have never put her into my favorite 100 musical artists, but I honestly have been impressed by the album.

[Edited 2/15/17 20:18pm]

Yes I have and I already expressed my thoughts about the album.

Why does it bother some of ya'll that some people just don't think it was a good album?

This constant fonding over anything Beyonce does and ostracizing anyone who constructively criticizes her is creepy.

There are legitmate and rational reasons why some didn't like the album.

I give credit where credit is due. I am not a Rihanna fan but her team made ANTI and I loved it.

I am not a Lady Gaga fan and always thought she was talentless BUT these last three years she has allowed her true talent to shine and I HAVE to give props to that.

Beyonce continues to be medocre when it comes to her music and relies to much on visuals and gimmicks. Its to much spetacle and not enough substance. I am not hating, I am just calling it like it is.

This is the Halo performance right here!

Anyone who says this girl can't sing is being a little obtuse IMO.

I'm not a MASSIVE fan of Beyoncé, but there's one thing that's NOT up for debate: Girl CAN sing. She can sing, high, low, she has a pretty good damn range, she can lay her vocals on many different types of music, you gotta respect that, regardless of whether you're fond or not of her art.

To be honest it's pointless to hate on Beyoncé as a whole entity, you can hate on how she fucks her way to the top, how she recruits thousands of songwriters and producers on her project, how much she makes a big deal out of anything she drops... yeah, that's a turn off.

Personally I'm a big fan of songs like Partition, Rocket, Haunted, All Night, Blow, Sorry, Love On Top... I just hate it when she has to involve politics and shit...Formation sucks, that song with Jack White sucks, Flawless sucks... it sounds so pretentious. and I can't stand her monologues... her speaking voice is boring. But her singing voice (especially on Rocket) is pretty sexy.

She lacks soul, charisma as a singer and she doesn't emote when sings. For a lot of people being a good singer is the ability to take the listener with you in a song. IMO, being soulful is something one is born with you, you can't teach it or fake it. She is not soulful or moving with her voice in any of these videos.

She is a typical vocalist you can find anyone who is a technical singer. However, a vocalist is different from singing and moving people with your voice.

Purple Rain slays all these videos, that IS singing.

Some people in here need to bow down and get in formation. All hail Bey-Toven.

mjscarousal said:

She lacks soul, charisma as a singer and she doesn't emote when sings. For a lot of people being a good singer is the ability to take the listener with you in a song. IMO, being soulful is something one is born with you, you can't teach it or fake it. She is not soulful or moving with her voice in any of these videos.

She is a typical vocalist you can find anyone who is a technical singer. However, a vocalist is different from singing and moving people with your voice.

Purple Rain slays all these videos, that IS singing.

I agree with you... she's not soulful. But I'm glad we agree that she's a good vocalist.

Anyways it's a matter of taste really, people nowadays dig her trap, alternative R&B driven songs... I don't mind them as long as the production is pretty eclectic, which is the case in songs like Partition, Haunted, All Night.

I get it, mjscarousal, you don't fancy artists like Beyoncé for many reasons, and you have a point in many of those reasons, but THERE IS ALSO A REASON she's one of the most successful artists today. Media aside, bias aside, people dig her shit. It's obvious.

Shawy89 said:

mjscarousal said:

She lacks soul, charisma as a singer and she doesn't emote when sings. For a lot of people being a good singer is the ability to take the listener with you in a song. IMO, being soulful is something one is born with you, you can't teach it or fake it. She is not soulful or moving with her voice in any of these videos.

She is a typical vocalist you can find anyone who is a technical singer. However, a vocalist is different from singing and moving people with your voice.

Purple Rain slays all these videos, that IS singing.

I agree with you... she's not soulful. But I'm glad we agree that she's a good vocalist.

Anyways it's a matter of taste really, people nowadays dig her trap, alternative R&B driven songs... I don't mind them as long as the production is pretty eclectic, which is the case in songs like Partition, Haunted, All Night.

I get it, mjscarousal, you don't fancy artists like Beyoncé for many reasons, and you have a point in many of those reasons, but THERE IS ALSO A REASON she's one of the most successful artists today. Media aside, bias aside, people dig her shit. It's obvious.

She is a descent vocalist, nothing exceptional (objectively, her range is limited, she is not Whitney or Mariah in terms of vocals let alone singing)

Also, How is it "obvious" that people dig her shit if its not selling at high rates or garnering hits?

Everytime I bring the issue of sales and receipts up, people are always quick to make some pity excuse for Beyonce and then whine that receipts dont matter.....YES THEY DO.

ALBUMS like Thriller, The Body Guard, Purple Rain, etc selling so well is the primary reason why MJ, Prince, Whitney, etc are legends AND Icons.

The sales BACK UP the fact that they were huge sensations and icons/legends. THEY MATTER

Beyonce is successful largely because of the climate of the dying music industry (lack of competition and options) and tokenism (being pandered too, given underserving awards, promotion, etc).

[Edited 2/15/17 22:49pm]

mjscarousal said:

Shawy89 said:

I agree with you... she's not soulful. But I'm glad we agree that she's a good vocalist.

Anyways it's a matter of taste really, people nowadays dig her trap, alternative R&B driven songs... I don't mind them as long as the production is pretty eclectic, which is the case in songs like Partition, Haunted, All Night.

I get it, mjscarousal, you don't fancy artists like Beyoncé for many reasons, and you have a point in many of those reasons, but THERE IS ALSO A REASON she's one of the most successful artists today. Media aside, bias aside, people dig her shit. It's obvious.

She is a descent vocalist, nothing exceptional (objectively, her range is limited, she is not Whitney or Mariah in terms of vocals let alone singing)

Also, How is it "obvious" that people dig her shit if its not selling at high rates or garnering hits?

Everytime I bring the issue of sales and receipts up, people are always quick to make some pity excuse for Beyonce and then whine that receipts dont matter.....YES THEY DO.

ALBUMS like Thriller, The Body Guard, Purple Rain, etc selling so well is the primary reason why MJ, Prince, Whitney, etc are legends AND Icons.

The sales BACK UP the fact that they were huge sensations and icons/legends. THEY MATTER

Beyonce is successful largely because of the climate of the dying music industry (lack of competition and options) and tokenism (being pandered too, given underserving awards, promotion, etc).

[Edited 2/15/17 22:49pm]

Technically she does have some monster sellers under her belt. Both The Writing's On The Wall and Survivor sold 15 and 11 million copies worldwide repspectively.

CynicKill said:

mjscarousal said:

She is a descent vocalist, nothing exceptional (objectively, her range is limited, she is not Whitney or Mariah in terms of vocals let alone singing)

Also, How is it "obvious" that people dig her shit if its not selling at high rates or garnering hits?

Everytime I bring the issue of sales and receipts up, people are always quick to make some pity excuse for Beyonce and then whine that receipts dont matter.....YES THEY DO.

ALBUMS like Thriller, The Body Guard, Purple Rain, etc selling so well is the primary reason why MJ, Prince, Whitney, etc are legends AND Icons.

The sales BACK UP the fact that they were huge sensations and icons/legends. THEY MATTER

Beyonce is successful largely because of the climate of the dying music industry (lack of competition and options) and tokenism (being pandered too, given underserving awards, promotion, etc).

[Edited 2/15/17 22:49pm]

Technically she does have some monster sellers under her belt. Both The Writing's On The Wall and Survivor sold 15 and 11 million copies worldwide repspectively.

LMAO Yall are pathetic with this illogical defending of Beyonce. Why are you talking about DC when I am talking about her solo work? When MJ's sales are calculated you know damn well his J5/Jackson's albums are not included BUT we doing that with Beyonce now?

Just Stop, her sales are mediocre.

mjscarousal said:

CynicKill said:

Technically she does have some monster sellers under her belt. Both The Writing's On The Wall and Survivor sold 15 and 11 million copies worldwide repspectively.

LMAO Yall are pathetic with this illogical defending of Beyonce. Why are you talking about DC when I am talking about her solo work? When MJ's sales are calculated you know damn well his J5/Jackson's albums are not included BUT we doing that with Beyonce now?

Just Stop, her sales are mediocre.

everyone's sales are mediocre compared to back in the day

MoBettaBliss said:

mjscarousal said:

LMAO Yall are pathetic with this illogical defending of Beyonce. Why are you talking about DC when I am talking about her solo work? When MJ's sales are calculated you know damn well his J5/Jackson's albums are not included BUT we doing that with Beyonce now?

Just Stop, her sales are mediocre.

everyone's sales are mediocre compared to back in the day

Everyone, except for Adele, of course.

jjhunsecker said:

Now Carlos has "apologized" :

The apology is noted but the damage is done...Santana's true thoughts were expressed in his original statement....The apology only came after he got feed-back...

jjhunsecker said:

Now Carlos has "apologized" :

http://www.rollingstone.c...er-w467183

Obviously, his PR person has advised this apology which is predictable...but why apologize? It just makes him look silly and now his point is forever lost. If you are going to speak out, own it. It's irritating for people to go in and say what they really feel only to backpeddle later. Urgh.