MotownSubdivision said:

Also, just because someone is overrated doesn't mean that they can't be iconic. Beyonce as severely overrated by the media and her diehard fanbase as she is doesn't change anything. Michael and Prince were truly larger than life musical figures unlike Beyonce but let's not act as though were flawless; neither were objectively perfect like some would have you believe but that doesn't take away from their credibility as icons and more substantially, as legends. And sorry for sounding rude at some points but I typically fight fire with fire. [Edited 1/9/17 6:26am]

Not rude just acting defensive and childish for no reason. You purposely ignored my question because you did not want answer it. You did not want to answer my question because you disagree with how I define a Music Icon. Now you are critiquing Michael and Prince by arguing they had flaws BUT what exactly does that have to do with the lack of musical Iconic contributions Beyonce has made??? This is a cheap put down at real ICONS just to make Beyonce look better which is a very annoying pattern I often see on this site when it comes to Beyonce. There are a lot of excuses always made for Beyonce while REAL ICONS are always heavily criticized (i.e. MJ, Janet, Prince, Madonna, etc). I am tired of it. If YOU think she is an ICON than she should be judged the same as other ICONS. Why should excuses be made for her OR exceptions if she is this big MUSIC ICON that you speak of???? Beyonce has NOT done anything ICONIC or anything musically ICONIC AND nothing you say can change that. My argument has nothing to do with Beyonce being overrated. I was asking you what are the iconic musical things she has done or contributed which you FINALLY chose to acknowledge in your last post AND we agree she has done NOTHING musically ICONIC.

[Edited 1/9/17 9:56am]

mjscarousal said:

This OP is not asking who were the big stars though. He is asking who are the Music Icons from Generation Y I disagree with this entire post and I am shocked to read this coming from you and if you feel being a house hold and recognizable name is the criteria from what makes a Music Icon (which are the only things you listed) than you obviously do not know what an Music Icon is because that is certainly not the reason why MJ is an Icon as well as Prince.

My question marks in the OP were genuine, because I'm not a Gen Y'er and I don't know whom that generation reveres as an Icon. But the criteria for Music Iconography doesn't change. It's really about how you leave your impact on the generation as a whole creatively, artistically, and yes, commercially.

Not everybody is going to have the same amount of eggs in each basket. But the issue is collectively, whether the baskets, weighed together, qualify any given artist for Iconic status.

They DID Iconic THINGS for music, that is why they are Icon. What Iconic things has Beyonce done for music? Same with Bruno Mars and so forth? You getting a major side eye from me. Yall keep calling Beyonce this icon but STATISTICALLY she shows that she is not. You will not find her on the biggest selling music list in the 2000's. I always hear people call her overrated. I am tired people minimizing the criteria of what makes an icon, its unfair to real Icons.

You have made the statistics-based argument against Beyonce before, but that's not the end of the discussion. To be sure, there are folks that passionately agree with you. But there are folks who passionately disagree with you. My sense is there are more Gen Y'ers that see her as an Icon than not, but I'm not a Gen Y'er.

Gen Y'ers as a whole can speak to it, though. They'll decide. I know you'll fight "Bey as an Icon" till the last dog dies though.

[Edited 1/9/17 10:41am]

[Edited 1/9/17 10:43am]

[Edited 1/9/17 10:45am]

namepeace said:

mjscarousal said:

This OP is not asking who were the big stars though. He is asking who are the Music Icons from Generation Y I disagree with this entire post and I am shocked to read this coming from you and if you feel being a house hold and recognizable name is the criteria from what makes a Music Icon (which are the only things you listed) than you obviously do not know what an Music Icon is because that is certainly not the reason why MJ is an Icon as well as Prince.

My question marks in the OP were genuine, because I'm not a Gen Y'er and I don't know whom that generation reveres as an Icon. But the criteria for Music Iconography doesn't change. It's really about how you leave your impact on the generation as a whole creatively, artistically, and yes, commercially.

Not everybody is going to have the same amount of eggs in each basket. But the issue is collectively, whether the baskets, weighed together, qualify any given artist for Iconic status.

They DID Iconic THINGS for music, that is why they are Icon. What Iconic things has Beyonce done for music? Same with Bruno Mars and so forth? You getting a major side eye from me. Yall keep calling Beyonce this icon but STATISTICALLY she shows that she is not. You will not find her on the biggest selling music list in the 2000's. I always hear people call her overrated. I am tired people minimizing the criteria of what makes an icon, its unfair to real Icons.

You have made the statistics-based argument against Beyonce before, but that's not the end of the discussion. To be sure, there are folks that passionately agree with you. But there are folks who passionately disagree with you.

Gen Y'ers as a whole can speak to it, though. They'll decide.

I am apart of this generation and millennums so I think I have more than a right to speak on this topic. Mostly everyone I talk too from the ages of 18-25 find Beyonce overrated. I have young girls that I mentor and have as clients as young as 14 that find her overrated. Now of course she has fans within those age ranges but you'd be surprised with the amount millennums who find Beyonce overrated and overexposed and don't get the hype about her. You say statistics does not matter but IT DOES matter especially if her stats are lower compared to her peers.There is a very big and visible disporportionate amount of people that find Beyonce overrated despite the way she is marketed. This is why I say there is a political agenda being pushed in regards to Beyonce. They keep promoting her and excessively marketing her despite the lack of interest by the general public, why is that? Something is not right with that. Just like its not right she is showered with awards she does not deserve. If I come off very strong on this issue its only because I love music and I am passionate about it! I refuse to be brain washed by propaganda or have the media play me as a fool like some of yall are buying into. I also believe everyone deserves their proper respect, due and acknowledgement. IMO, MJ, Prince, Stevie Wonder, etc are the REAL MUSIC ICONS. Those are the REAL icons and heroes of music and there are a lot of young people who feel the same way. Now if some disagree with that fine (that will never change how I feel about them and what they mean to me) and if some think Beyonce or Justin etc are Music Icons despite not having iconic music thats fine too. However, I just hate how they are always critically criticized (Michael, Prince, Janet, Madonna, Stevie, etc) while more overrated acts (i.e. Beyonce) are pampered and given excuses and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

mjscarousal said:

I never ignored your question though and in fact, still gave you evidence to support my stance which was more than enough for you to actually see where I was coming from. You're smart enough to do that yet I had to repeat myself 4 times in order for you to get the point which I still don't think you do.

And since you want to keep saying how much I "ignored" your question, how about you stop ignoring mine and tell me which acts are icons of the 2000s and 2010s. While you're at it, tell me which of the acts I named aren't icons (no need to elaborate on Beyonce for the billionth time either) because you have yet to give any specific names.
[Edited 1/9/17 11:24am]

mjscarousal said:

Thing is I answered your question. You still have yet to answer mine so who's really being defensive and childish? Not me. Quit avoiding the question and if you can't answer then own up to it.

mjscarousal said:

namepeace said:

I am apart of this generation and millennums so I think I have more than a right to speak on this topic.

I took you for a Y'er because of your passionate takes on the topic.

Mostly everyone I talk too from the ages of 18-25 find Beyonce overrated. I have young girls that I mentor and have as clients as young as 14 that find her overrated. Now of course she has fans within those age ranges but you'd be surprised with the amount millennums who find Beyonce overrated and overexposed and don't get the hype about her.

But that's a very limited sample size to make a generational assessment.

It's not surprising that there is a lot of anti-Bey sentiment out there among Ys/millenials. The Hive would have a whole lot less to do if there weren't. But those feelings may soften among some in the anti-Bey camp over time. It happened with Gen-X detractors of Madge, Prince, and yes, your avatar.

You say statistics does not matter but IT DOES matter especially if her stats are lower compared to her peers.There is a very big and visible disporportionate amount of people that find Beyonce overrated despite the way she is marketed.

First off, re-read what I posted; I never said that. I did say commercial success can make an artist an Icon, but it doesn't stop there. One also has to take into account how the album-driven model has been on life support for most of Bey's solo career. Nobody sells like the Icons of the past anymore, except for Adele (who IMO is a millenial Icon). You can't make apples-to-apples comparisons of Gen X Icons to Gen Y icons.

This is why I say there is a political agenda being pushed in regards to Beyonce. They keep promoting her and excessively marketing her despite the lack of interest by the general public, why is that? Something is not right with that.
Just like its not right she is showered with awards she does not deserve.

Music has never been immune from political agendas, but the demand has to be coming from somewhere. I don't listen to Bey generally, but in terms of generating attention she shares some traits with Madge in her prime. She's everywhere, but somebody wants to see her. As for awards, you know by now that awards don't mean that much.

If I come off very strong on this issue its only because I love music and I am passionate about it! I refuse to be brain washed by propaganda or have the media play me as a fool like some of yall are buying into. I also believe everyone deserves their proper respect, due and acknowledgement.

mjs, come now. A lot of these folks discussing this here -- like me and others -- ain't checking for Bey like that. We just acknowledge the reality that Bey is a towering presence in music in the 21st century, for good or ill, and hating on her ain't gonna change that.

IMO, MJ, Prince, Stevie Wonder, etc are the REAL MUSIC ICONS. Those are the REAL icons and heroes of music and there are a lot of young people who feel the same way.

Believe me, there were a lot of Gen Xers once thought few if any of the artists listed were music Icons. But as I've said before, Iconography isn't static. Arts of today eventually become the Icons of tomorrow, and a few, with fierce opposition from dissenters.

Now if some disagree with that fine (that will never change how I feel about them and what they mean to me) and if some think Beyonce or Justin etc are Music Icons despite not having iconic music thats fine too. However, I just hate how they are always critically criticized (Michael, Prince, Janet, Madonna, Stevie, etc) while more overrated acts (i.e. Beyonce) are pampered and given excuses and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

There's a difference between the 2 categories of artists you criticize. The first category is, for the most part, always competing against themselves, and their past work. The latter don't have the artistic cachet to warrant that kind of scrutiny (you do realize that there were those who said artists like Madge and Janet got passes for the type of work they did in their prime, though?).

Your generation will decide on Bey, as mine decided on most of the Icons you recognize.

Good luck fighting Bey. It's a worthwhile discussion to have.

namepeace said:

mjscarousal said:

I am apart of this generation and millennums so I think I have more than a right to speak on this topic.

I took you for a Y'er because of your passionate takes on the topic.

Mostly everyone I talk too from the ages of 18-25 find Beyonce overrated. I have young girls that I mentor and have as clients as young as 14 that find her overrated. Now of course she has fans within those age ranges but you'd be surprised with the amount millennums who find Beyonce overrated and overexposed and don't get the hype about her.

But that's a very limited sample size to make a generational assessment.

It's not surprising that there is a lot of anti-Bey sentiment out there among Ys/millenials. The Hive would have a whole lot less to do if there weren't. But those feelings may soften among some in the anti-Bey camp over time. It happened with Gen-X detractors of Madge, Prince, and yes, your avatar.

You say statistics does not matter but IT DOES matter especially if her stats are lower compared to her peers.There is a very big and visible disporportionate amount of people that find Beyonce overrated despite the way she is marketed.

First off, re-read what I posted; I never said that. I did say commercial success can make an artist an Icon, but it doesn't stop there. One also has to take into account how the album-driven model has been on life support for most of Bey's solo career. Nobody sells like the Icons of the past anymore, except for Adele (who IMO is a millenial Icon). You can't make apples-to-apples comparisons of Gen X Icons to Gen Y icons.

This is why I say there is a political agenda being pushed in regards to Beyonce. They keep promoting her and excessively marketing her despite the lack of interest by the general public, why is that? Something is not right with that.
Just like its not right she is showered with awards she does not deserve.

Music has never been immune from political agendas, but the demand has to be coming from somewhere. I don't listen to Bey generally, but in terms of generating attention she shares some traits with Madge in her prime. She's everywhere, but somebody wants to see her. As for awards, you know by now that awards don't mean that much.

If I come off very strong on this issue its only because I love music and I am passionate about it! I refuse to be brain washed by propaganda or have the media play me as a fool like some of yall are buying into. I also believe everyone deserves their proper respect, due and acknowledgement.

mjs, come now. A lot of these folks discussing this here -- like me and others -- ain't checking for Bey like that. We just acknowledge the reality that Bey is a towering presence in music in the 21st century, for good or ill, and hating on her ain't gonna change that.

IMO, MJ, Prince, Stevie Wonder, etc are the REAL MUSIC ICONS. Those are the REAL icons and heroes of music and there are a lot of young people who feel the same way.

Believe me, there were a lot of Gen Xers once thought few if any of the artists listed were music Icons. But as I've said before, Iconography isn't static. Arts of today eventually become the Icons of tomorrow, and a few, with fierce opposition from dissenters.

Now if some disagree with that fine (that will never change how I feel about them and what they mean to me) and if some think Beyonce or Justin etc are Music Icons despite not having iconic music thats fine too. However, I just hate how they are always critically criticized (Michael, Prince, Janet, Madonna, Stevie, etc) while more overrated acts (i.e. Beyonce) are pampered and given excuses and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

There's a difference between the 2 categories of artists you criticize. The first category is, for the most part, always competing against themselves, and their past work. The latter don't have the artistic cachet to warrant that kind of scrutiny (you do realize that there were those who said artists like Madge and Janet got passes for the type of work they did in their prime, though?).

Your generation will decide on Bey, as mine decided on most of the Icons you recognize.

Good luck fighting Bey. It's a worthwhile discussion to have.

It seems like you think she is an music ICON so what is the point in asking people for their opinions if you think they are "hating" if they give reasons for why an artist is not a music Icon? I am not immaturely putting her down or calling her out her name or giving mindless opinions. I am giving intelligent posts and supporting them with facts for my reasons and this is something that should be encourage instead of automatically calling someone a hater when they are criticial. Its okay to be critical about Michael Jackson. Its okay to be criticial about Janet. Its okay to be critical about Madonna but someone is a hater if they are critical about Beyonce when there is a clear agenda being pushed in her excessive marketing??? This post proves my point that there are excuses given to Beyonce while the former is heavily criticized and your excuse that they had "artistc cachet that warant that kind of scrutiny" is a lame excuse because Beyonce is more critically accliam that a lot of legendary artists so that in itself should warrant people to be even more criticial of her artistic merits and so called "iconic music". ALSO, I think your remark that "she is everywhere but someone wants to see her " very very very naive because although there might be some small group of people, her (fans) that might want to see her, however, the vast majority of the general public does not want to see her and statistics show that. I also don't think statistics are every single thing either but they do reveal a lot about the popularity and impact of an artist. Numbers without a doubt reflect that. I don't care how many times I hear the media call a singer the queen or the best if statistically it shows nobody is buying their music and low number ones, its false and there is an obvious disconnect there from the media and public consumer. I would hope any intelligent person would question it and that in no way makes one a hater. This is false propaganda and its serious.

ALSO, life is not perfect, your not going to please every body. OF COURSE, There were people who may not have liked Michael, Prince, Madonna etc. HOWEVER, they made a significant impact on the industry and world that can not be disputed and their impact is still felt till this day. Beyonce has not made the same impact as therm. Also, there is a sigificant disporportionate amont of people in this generation that find Beyonce overrated MORE so than any other era! Outside of her mediocre statistics, she has no Iconic albums, songs, videos, or moments that would even warrant her to be called an Music Icon. Yea some might have had called Madonna overrated and some don't even like her till this day but one thing that is generally acknowledge and accepted world wide is that Madonna is a music icon that has made a big impact on pop culture and music and whether someone likes her or not, people can easily name one of Madonna iconic songs, albums and moments and no its not the same with Beyonce. I don't think people will look back and be listening to Beyonce music the same as the others or she will be revered the same.

Its fine if you think I am "hating on her" They called Dr. King crazy. They called MJ crazy and so forth and in the end it turned out they were right! I have been called worse things so I don't care. I will never stop fighting for whats right because I know this propaganda is political and an agenda and I will always call it out! The music industry is in a dark place and they are presenting different agendas and as music lovers we should be talking about it and not acting as if it doesn't exist.

[Edited 1/9/17 12:35pm]

mjscarousal said:

namepeace said:

It seems like you think she is an music ICON so what is the point in asking people for their opinions if you think they are "hating" if they give reasons for why an artist is not a music Icon? I am not immaturely putting her down or calling her out her name or giving mindless opinions. I am giving intelligent posts and supporting them with facts for my reasons and this is something that should be encourage instead of automatically calling someone a hater when they are criticial.

Okay, that's fair. But you have made it very clear you have a strong distaste for Bey's status -- or some like you would say, perception -- of Bey as an Iconic figure. It's fair to say you take a "detractor" position vis-a-vis Bey.

Its okay to be critical about Michael Jackson. Its okay to be criticial about Janet. Its okay to be critical about Madonna but someone is a hater if they are critical about Beyonce when there is a clear agenda being pushed in her excessive marketing???

Who says it's okay or NOT okay? It just IS. Madge suffered the same "overexposure" backlash Bey has suffered from detractors. Janet, had her share of detractors, not so much for the exposure she received but her actual talent..

This post proves my point that there are excuses given to Beyonce while the former is heavily criticized and your excuse that they had "artistc cachet that warant that kind of scrutiny" is a lame excuse because Beyonce is more critically accliam that a lot of legendary artists so that in itself should warrant people to be even more criticial of her artistic merits and so called "iconic music".

Your passion has unbalanced you. Beyonce gets about the same level of acclaim that many superstars generations before received. And there's been no real backlash yet, but it always comes, which should be a relief from you. She just doesn't sell as many records as those superstars. NO. ONE. DOES. IN. THE. 21st. CENTURY. It's clear you don't care much for her music. That's fine.


ALSO, I think your remark that "she is everywhere but someone wants to see her " very very very naive because although there might be some small group of people, her (fans) that might want to see her, however, the vast majority of the general public does not want to see her and statistics show that. I also don't think statistics are every single thing either but they do reveal a lot about the popularity and impact of an artist. Numbers without a doubt reflect that.

According to Billboard, Beyonce sold 2 million tickets on her last tour, and grossed $256 million. If you consider that small potatoes . . . well, then that's another example of your passion unbalancing you.

Your argument doesn't make sense because the "vast majority" of the entire American populace doesn't want to see any given act in concert. That's about 330 million people. Beyonce, and acts like her, can get one out every 150 Americans or maybe 200 Americans (presuming she has repeat ticket buyers) to pay to see her perform. Reality says those numbers indicate Bey -- like her or not -- is a major draw.


I don't care how many times I hear the media call a singer the queen or the best if statistically it shows nobody is buying their music and low number ones, its false and there is an obvious disconnect there from the media and public consumer. I would hope any intelligent person would question it and that in no way makes one a hater. This is false propaganda and its serious.

I've said this before -- if Madonna had Bey's 2016 album sales in 1990, then she'd have jumped out a window. But it ain't 1990 anymore. Beyonce can sell a fraction of the albums comparable artists sold decades before and still be one of the most successful stars of her generation.

Your argument the "obvious disconnect" but that presumes that Bey's success is a media creation. It may be an INDUSTRY creation, but a lot of top selling stars are industry creations. Including the Icons you recognize. The industry helped create Bey, and the public consumer responded by patronizing her work more than most other performers for almost 15 years. Her endorsement partners, who are in the business of selling, wouldn't just give money away to her if she DIDN'T help them sell whatever they pay her to sell. You may be frustrated by it, and bewildered by her exposure, but it's . . . to use your word . . . "naive" . . . to think her success is some vast media conspiracy.

ALSO, life is not perfect, your not going to please every body. OF COURSE, There were people who may not have liked Michael, Prince, Madonna etc. HOWEVER, they made a significant impact on the industry and world that can not be disputed and their impact is still felt till this day. Beyonce has not made the same impact as therm.

Okay. But she hasn't been around long enough to get a full measure of her impact. 20 years into his career, Prince had been reduced a running joke in American culture. It was only in the years that followed that his TRUE legacy came into focus.

The dispute you have will be measured by time. You can't measure Bey's full impact for quite a while. How her legacy ages will decide the question. Maybe 10 years from now, the majority of your cohorts will agree with you. But Bey's on the Icon track now, and it's going to be hard to derail her.

Also, there is a sigificant disporportionate amont of people in this generation that find Beyonce overrated MORE so than any other era! Outside of her mediocre statistics, she has no Iconic albums, songs, videos, or moments that would even warrant her to be called an Music Icon.

That's a bold statement. Got any data to back it up? According to the Chicago Tribune, she had sold approximately 100 million records as of 2013. That's not mediocre.

Yea some might have had called Madonna overrated and some don't even like her till this day but one thing that is generally acknowledge and accepted world wide is that Madonna is a music icon that has made a big impact on pop culture and music and whether someone likes her or not, people can easily name one of Madonna iconic songs, albums and moments and no its not the same with Beyonce. I don't think people will look back and be listening to Beyonce music the same as the others or she will be revered the same.

That's an opinion that will be borne out with time. As it did with Madge. And based on the way things have unfolded thus far in her career, I don't think you're going to like the results.

Its fine if you think I am "hating on her" They called Dr. King crazy.

Seriously? You're better than this.

They called MJ crazy and so forth and in the end it turned out they were right! I have been called worse things so I don't care. I will never stop fighting for whats right because I know this propaganda is political and an agenda and I will always call it out!

Nobody's calling you anything in a negative light. Your statements do make you a detractor, and you clearly do hate that Bey gets the love she does because you think it's unwarranted. But your passion for the subject is causing you to ignore the data. Her album sales, ticket sales, endorsement deals, and media profile are not simply one big conspiracy. Like it or not, she's one of the biggest stars of her generation.

The music industry is in a dark place and they are presenting different agendas and as music lovers we should be talking about it and not acting as if it doesn't exist.

Of course music is not where we'd like it to be. But if you care about music, let Bey have her stage, and continue to support the artists that matter TO YOU.

[Edited 1/9/17 12:35pm]

[Edited 1/9/17 15:07pm]

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

FINALLY!!!!! NOW WE ARE GETTING SOME WHERE!!! THANKS for FINALLY choosing to answer the question!!!! What was so hard about that???? Good Grief and your argument that this isn't the be all end all determination of what makes a Music Icon is FALSE because these things are the essential components in what makes Music ICON. You CAN NOT be a music Icon with no Iconic songs, You can not be a music icon without any Iconic albums or culturally Iconic defining performances, break out singles, etc BECAUSE Music Icons make LASTING ICONIC images, music and impact on people. So HOWcan you be a MUSIC ICON WITHOUT doing anything musically ICONIC!?!?! HOW????

With that being said, that is all I wanted to know! NOW, I know this is why you have ignored and refused to answer my question because YOU know just as well as I KNOW that none of these singers have done NOTHING musically ICONIC! LOL NOW if you want to continue call them Music Icons so be it, I don't care I cared about 7 posts back though when I originally asked you my question but after 7 posts later of you purposely being obtuse with the quesiton I asked, I stopped caring. I know exactly what I asked you. You chose to purposely focus on elements of your argument that you wanted to focus on and you chose to ignore my question.

[Edited 1/9/17 9:39am]

I never ignored your question though and in fact, still gave you evidence to support my stance which was more than enough for you to actually see where I was coming from. You're smart enough to do that yet I had to repeat myself 4 times in order for you to get the point which I still don't think you do. And since you want to keep saying how much I "ignored" your question, how about you stop ignoring mine and tell me which acts are icons of the 2000s and 2010s. While you're at it, tell me which of the acts I named aren't icons (no need to elaborate on Beyonce for the billionth time either) because you have yet to give any specific names. [Edited 1/9/17 11:24am]

You DID ignore my question and furthermore at this point I do not take you seriously anymore. I asked you multiple times and posts ago to list the iconic things in music you felt Beyonce and her. contemporaries have done for music and you listed nothing and you never acknowledged the question.POST how many times you listed the iconic things in music Beyonce has done, I'LL WAIT!

Even after I kept asking you, you felt that you had given enough information and that it was "my fault" I was not understanding your point. You ONLY finally decided to answer the question in your last post. FYI, if someone asks you a question FIRST, and you want them to answer your FUTURE questions, then you should respond to their question first instead of ignoring their question. You never acknowledged my question because you only wanted to focus on aspects of your perpective and argument and like I told you earlier that is not how a discussion works. I have said numerous of times on this site that I don't think there are NO Music Icons of this generation that will make the same impact as the Michaels, Princes and Madonna's (that era is long gone and there will be no more legends and icons of that stature). However, if I had to pick one from early 2000's and 2010 present, I would definitly pick Britney Spears from early 00's and Adele for this 2010-present period. Those are the only singers that I would pick and here is why, while they do not meet every single criteria for a music icon, they at least meet some of the criteria, mega popular (both have two diamond albums), (both have albums that culturally defines and introduces a new decade in music, i.e. Britney Spears, 2000, "Baby One More Time" Adele, 2010, "21"), and (Both have classic albums; 21 will be revered as a classic IMO). While they have not done anything groundbreaking in music, Britney and Adele both have made an impact on the culture of music in a certain time period i.e. Britney on MTV culture, video and channel and Adele in the dignital era period (her record breaking album sales and success is out of the norm in this era and is something that will be looked back on for its anamoly. The only other artist I would give a slight edge to is Eminem but outside of these artists that could be argued as a music icon, there are no artists from the early 00's or now that deserves to be in the conversation. Unlike you, I answered your question and you did not have to get me to answer your question after numerous posts.

[Edited 1/9/17 19:23pm]

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

Not rude just acting defensive and childish for no reason. You purposely ignored my question because you did not want answer it. You did not want to answer my question because you disagree with how I define a Music Icon. Now you are critiquing Michael and Prince by arguing they had flaws BUT what exactly does that have to do with the lack of musical Iconic contributions Beyonce has made??? This is a cheap put down at real ICONS just to make Beyonce look better which is a very annoying pattern I often see on this site when it comes to Beyonce. There are a lot of excuses always made for Beyonce while REAL ICONS are always heavily criticized (i.e. MJ, Janet, Prince, Madonna, etc). I am tired of it. If YOU think she is an ICON than she should be judged the same as other ICONS. Why should excuses be made for her OR exceptions if she is this big MUSIC ICON that you speak of???? Beyonce has NOT done anything ICONIC or anything musically ICONIC AND nothing you say can change that. My argument has nothing to do with Beyonce being overrated. I was asking you what are the iconic musical things she has done or contributed which you FINALLY chose to acknowledge in your last post AND we agree she has done NOTHING musically ICONIC.

[Edited 1/9/17 9:56am]

Thing is I answered your question. You still have yet to answer mine so who's really being defensive and childish? Not me. Quit avoiding the question and if you can't answer then own up to it.

OK. If this is how you feel, please quote all the times you listed the iconic things you felt Beyonce has done in music. I'll wait. You have acknowledged this one time and the next time you say this, I will go back and quote all your posts to show you that you ONLY acknowledged that question one time. This is getting pathetic.

mjscarousal said:

Yes it is pathetic that you can't handle opposing opinions especially if they so much as paint Beyonce in a positive light. It's funny how 9 times out of 10 you agree with me yet get all bent out of shape over this because I'm not dragging your least favorite artist's name through the mud.

The bottom line is I answered your question many times over and even said in my last post that most of the 2000s and 2010s acts don't have iconic performances or looks, etc.; the exact thing you probably wanted to hear anyway yet that apparently still isn't good enough for you? "You only acknowledged the question once" you say, I answer your question and you're seriously complaining that I only answered it "once". Ridiculous. You're a hopeless cause and it's annoying how I've had to repeat myself again and again just because you can't deal with it. Maybe you should acknowledge the definition of an icon (which I provided) instead of going off what you think you know, cherrypicking my argument and comically missing the point ad nauseum. You called me "defensive and childish" yet all throughout this topic whenever I or TC voices an opinion contrary to yours you form an argument equivalent to "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!RECEIPTS! RECEIPTS! RECEIPTS!" You are in no position to be calling anyone defensive or childish with how you act when discussing Beyonce or this specific topic for that matter.

In any case, believe what you want to since it's pointless trying to argue with someone who refuses to look beyond what their own narrow-mindedness. You may be right about other things but not about this.
[Edited 1/10/17 6:48am]

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

OK. If this is how you feel, please quote all the times you listed the iconic things you felt Beyonce has done in music. I'll wait. You have acknowledged this one time and the next time you say this, I will go back and quote all your posts to show you that you ONLY acknowledged that question one time. This is getting pathetic.

Yes it is pathetic that you can't handle opposing opinions especially if they so much as paint Beyonce in a positive light. It's funny how 9 times out of 10 you agree with me yet get all bent out of shape over this because I'm not dragging your least favorite artist's name through the mud. The bottom line is I answered your question many times over and even said in my last post that most of the 2000s and 2010s acts don't have iconic performances or looks, etc.; the exact thing you probably wanted to hear anyway yet that apparently still isn't good enough for you? "You only acknowledged the question once" you say, I answer your question and you're seriously complaining that I only answered it "once". Ridiculous. You're a hopeless cause and it's annoying how I've had to repeat myself again and again just because you can't deal with it. Maybe you should acknowledge the definition of an icon (which I provided) instead of going off what you think you know, cherrypicking my argument and comically missing the point ad nauseum. You called me "defensive and childish" yet all throughout this topic whenever I or TC voices an opinion contrary to yours you form an argument equivalent to "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!RECEIPTS! RECEIPTS! RECEIPTS!" You are in no position to be calling anyone defensive or childish with how you act when discussing Beyonce or this specific topic for that matter. In any case, believe what you want to since it's pointless trying to argue with someone who refuses to look beyond what their own narrow-mindedness. You may be right about other things but not about this. [Edited 1/10/17 6:48am]

No, YOU are the pathetic one.

I ASKED YOU A SPECIFIC QUESTION (WHAT ICONIC MUSICAL THINGS HAS BEYONCE AND HER PEERS DONE?) AND YOU DID NOT answer it!? It wasn't until 7 posts later you finally decided to answer the question, cut the bullshit out, seriously. I EVEN gave you the opportunity to RE QUOTE YOUR POSTS, since YOU FEEL YOU have acknowledge Beyonce and her peers ICONIC musical contributions "multiple times" in this discussion and you don't even want to do that!?!?! That is cfoolery because I am trying to have an adult conversation with you and you don't want to answer any of my questions that I ask you because "in your mind you feel you have answered them" although they have NOTHING to do with what I asked. NOW, you rant again about me being childish and about answering my question 9, 10, 11 or whatever times but I politely asked you to post all YOUR POSTS AGAIN and PROVE that you DID list Beyonce and her peers musical iconic contributions 9 times and AGAIN you don't want to do that I know why you don't want to re quote your post because there aren't ANY, just like how you avoided my question for 7 posts about Beyonce and her peers iconic music because you know she doesn't have any iconic music which you finally decided to acknowledge 7 posts later. You have ONLY answered the question ONE time in this "one sided discussion"but AGAIN you show yourself to be childish all because the discussion is not going your way AND because I disagree with you. If YOU Think Beyonce and Drake are Icons and so forth, for the millionth time, I don't care. I told you that several posts back after I asked you to answer my question and you consistently ignored the question. I don't have an interest in having discussions with people who ignore the opposers question and only want to argue their perspectives (just because they disagree with them), that is not how you have a discussion and with that, I am done with this discussion with you. I answered all your questions although you continue to avoid mine so feel free to think whatever you want.

[Edited 1/10/17 21:34pm]

mjscarousal said:

Never mind the rest of this post; I stopped reading after the bolded...

"You never answered answered my question because you answered it 7 posts later!" is literally what you said. :lol:

I think I'm being very nice when I say you are a fool but I guess I'm the real fool here for arguing with one.

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

No, YOU are the pathetic one.

I ASKED YOU A SPECIFIC QUESTION (WHAT ICONIC MUSICAL THINGS HAS BEYONCE AND HER PEERS DONE?) AND YOU DID NOT answer it!? It wasn't until 7 posts later you finally decided to answer the question, cut the bullshit out, seriously. I EVEN gave you the opportunity to RE QUOTE YOUR POSTS, since YOU FEEL YOU have acknowledge Beyonce and her peers ICONIC musical contributions "multiple times" in this discussion and you don't even want to do that!?!?! That is cfoolery because I am trying to have an adult conversation with you and you don't want to answer any of my questions that I ask you because "in your mind you feel you have answered them" although they have NOTHING to do with what I asked. NOW, you rant again about me being childish and about answering my question 9, 10, 11 or whatever times but I politely asked you to post all YOUR POSTS AGAIN and PROVE that you DID list Beyonce and her peers musical iconic contributions 9 times and AGAIN you don't want to do that I know why you don't want to re quote your post because there aren't ANY, just like how you avoided my question for 7 posts about Beyonce and her peers iconic music because you know she doesn't have any iconic music which you finally decided to acknowledge 7 posts later. You have ONLY answered the question ONE time in this "one sided discussion"but AGAIN you show yourself to be childish all because the discussion is not going your way AND because I disagree with you. If YOU Think Beyonce and Drake are Icons and so forth, for the millionth time, I don't care. I told you that several posts back after I asked you to answer my question and you consistently ignored the question. I don't have an interest in having discussions with people who ignore the opposers question and only want to argue their perspectives (just because they disagree with them), that is not how you have a discussion and with that, I am done with this discussion with you. I answered all your questions although you continue to avoid mine so feel free to think whatever you want.

[Edited 1/10/17 21:34pm]

Never mind the rest of this post; I stopped reading after the bolded... "You never answered answered my question because you answered it 7 posts later!" is literally what you said. I think I'm being very nice when I say you are a fool but I guess I'm the real fool here for arguing with one.

No your the fool Motown and I have absolutely no respect for you anymore because I have tried to have a discussion with you despite your one sided discussion and childish tantrum.

That statement I wrote I admit was not clear...but I have been saying the same thing over and over again to you so please excuse the typos, its just getting tiresome but I will clarify AGAIN,

This entire time, you have ranted that you have listed the iconic achievements (or lack of) of Beyonce and her peers numerous of times in this discussion and YOU HAVE NOT. You have ONLY answered and acknowledged the question ONE TIME and it was after 7 posts of you IGNORING my question and ranting about your own perspective.

Not ONLY that, I politely asked you to re quote your OWN posts that you feel you made in which you acknowledge the question (since you feel strongly you have answered the question multiple times) and you don't even want to do that! LOL So who is REALLY the fool? You don't even want to DEFEND YOUR own stance! (and I KNOW WHY you don't want too just like I know why you IGNORED the question I asked you for 7 posts) Here we are once again, you are deflecting from answering the question! Your the fool not me! I even tried to maturely end the discussion with you when I saw you were not answering the question but you persisted and you FINALLY decided to answer the question. Now I have not a clue what point you are trying to make now. I have ASKED YOU TO DEFEND YOUR STANCE and you keep defecting by calling me out my name and going on and on about you answering my question multiple times (although you don't want to provide PROOF of it) LMAO you're a joke and I could care less what you think about me. I know my character and what kind of person I am and have nothing to prove to you. You have been exposed in this discussion.

[Edited 1/11/17 5:48am]

mjscarousal said:

I rest my case, you are a fool. A hypocritical one at that.

Enjoy your receipts!

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

No your the fool Motown and I have absolutely no respect for you anymore because I have tried to have a discussion with you despite your one sided discussion and childish tantrum.

That statement I wrote I admit was not clear...but I have been saying the same thing over and over again to you so please excuse the typos, its just getting tiresome but I will clarify AGAIN,

This entire time, you have ranted that you have listed the iconic achievements (or lack of) of Beyonce and her peers numerous of times in this discussion and YOU HAVE NOT. You have ONLY answered and acknowledged the question ONE TIME and it was after 7 posts of you IGNORING my question and ranting about your own perspective.

Not ONLY that, I politely asked you to re quote your OWN posts that you feel you made in which you acknowledge the question (since you feel strongly you have answered the question multiple times) and you don't even want to do that! LOL So who is REALLY the fool? You don't even want to DEFEND YOUR own stance! (and I KNOW WHY you don't want too just like I know why you IGNORED the question I asked you for 7 posts) Here we are once again, you are deflecting from answering the question! Your the fool not me! I even tried to maturely end the discussion with you when I saw you were not answering the question but you persisted and you FINALLY decided to answer the question. Now I have not a clue what point you are trying to make now. I have ASKED YOU TO DEFEND YOUR STANCE and you keep defecting by calling me out my name and going on and on about you answering my question multiple times (although you don't want to provide PROOF of it) LMAO you're a joke and I could care less what you think about me. I know my character and what kind of person I am and have nothing to prove to you. You have been exposed in this discussion.

[Edited 1/11/17 5:48am]

I rest my case, you are a fool. A hypocritical one at that. Enjoy your receipts!

And like clock work, THANKS for taking the time to let me know for the billionth time you have NO intentions of re quoting your posts in order to defend you argument, have a blessed day.

[Edited 1/11/17 7:24am]

mjscarousal said:

I don't need to but keep thinking that.

Stay out of trouble.

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

And like clock work, THANKS for taking the time to let me know for the billionth time you have NO intentions of re quoting your posts in order to defend you argument, have a blessed day.

I don't need to but keep thinking that. Stay out of trouble.

Have a blessed day Motown and I hope you feel better because you are obviously upset by this discussion. I am perfectly fine and I know I will have a great day. FYI I don't need to keep calling you a fool. I don't need keep calling you pathetic. I don't need to keep calling you childish because you are showing your ass right now. You keep coming back with the same immature crap instead of defending your stance. Its clear you don't want to have an adult conversation. WHY are you responding to me still?

mjscarousal said:

Let it go, child.

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

Have a blessed day Motown and I hope you feel better because you are obviously upset by this discussion. I am perfectly fine and I know I will have a great day. FYI I don't need to keep calling you a fool. I don't need keep calling you pathetic. I don't need to keep calling you childish because you are showing your ass right now. You keep coming back with the same immature crap instead of defending your stance. Its clear you don't want to have an adult conversation. WHY are you responding to me still?

Let it go, child.

YOU let it go. YOU are the one upset about it and you want to have the last word LOL. I told you I was done posts ago and you kept responding back to me with the same one sided argument and now you throwing insults because the discussion didn't go your way. Its not that serious, just take your L and move on.

mjscarousal said:

Yet you're still posting
[Edited 1/11/17 8:26am]

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

YOU let it go. YOU are the one upset about it and you want to have the last word LOL. I told you I was done posts ago and you kept responding back to me with the same one sided argument and now you throwing insults because the discussion didn't go your way. Its not that serious, just take your L and move on.

Yet you're still posting [Edited 1/11/17 8:26am]

Because your melt down is entertaining. Lol.

I would say Beyonce is the biggest icon of the last 10 years. She's like the Madonna of the 80's and Janet of the 90's

nextedition said:

I would say Beyonce is the biggest icon of the last 10 years. She's like the Madonna of the 80's and Janet of the 90's

agreed between her and kanye

[Edited 1/12/17 7:26am]

NorthC said:

You forgot the whole grunge movement: Nirvana, Pearljam etc. Britpop was also quite popular, Oasis especially. And I think we can add The Red Hot Chili Peppers to the list. And maybe Alanis Morrisette?

Well, I didn't want to assume that Y'ers and Millenials included them. But I did!

Nirvana, Pearl Jam and the Peppers, I'd agree. How long was Oasis together?

Morrisette DID make an iconic 90's album.

But again, I'm not a Y'er.

MotownSubdivision said:

With such a wide range any big 80s star (Michael, Prince, Bruce, George, Madonna, etc.), 90s star (2Pac, Biggie, Janet, Mariah, Nirvana, etc.), 2000s star (Beyonce, Eminem, Kanye, Usher, JT, etc.) or 2010s star (Adele, Taylor, Gaga, Katy Perry, Bruno, etc.) is a Gen Y icon. It's enough that many of the 80s stars were still big commercially in the 90s and some even into the 2000s.

Circling back around I'd agree with that, and I didn't take you to say that commercial success was the sole factor.

Speaking of, would that mean Hammer, NKOTB, NSync et al are Gen Y Icons? They could be!

namepeace said:

Thank you for understanding what should have been a simple post to understand.

I wouldn't say Hammer, NKOTB or NSYNC are icons; they were novelty acts and at best were crazy popular during their respective peaks. However, in Hammer's case, I'd say that he definitely had an iconic look.

namepeace said:

mjscarousal said:

It seems like you think she is an music ICON so what is the point in asking people for their opinions if you think they are "hating" if they give reasons for why an artist is not a music Icon? I am not immaturely putting her down or calling her out her name or giving mindless opinions. I am giving intelligent posts and supporting them with facts for my reasons and this is something that should be encourage instead of automatically calling someone a hater when they are criticial.

Okay, that's fair. But you have made it very clear you have a strong distaste for Bey's status -- or some like you would say, perception -- of Bey as an Iconic figure. It's fair to say you take a "detractor" position vis-a-vis Bey.

Its okay to be critical about Michael Jackson. Its okay to be criticial about Janet. Its okay to be critical about Madonna but someone is a hater if they are critical about Beyonce when there is a clear agenda being pushed in her excessive marketing???

Who says it's okay or NOT okay? It just IS. Madge suffered the same "overexposure" backlash Bey has suffered from detractors. Janet, had her share of detractors, not so much for the exposure she received but her actual talent..

This post proves my point that there are excuses given to Beyonce while the former is heavily criticized and your excuse that they had "artistc cachet that warant that kind of scrutiny" is a lame excuse because Beyonce is more critically accliam that a lot of legendary artists so that in itself should warrant people to be even more criticial of her artistic merits and so called "iconic music".

Your passion has unbalanced you. Beyonce gets about the same level of acclaim that many superstars generations before received. And there's been no real backlash yet, but it always comes, which should be a relief from you. She just doesn't sell as many records as those superstars. NO. ONE. DOES. IN. THE. 21st. CENTURY. It's clear you don't care much for her music. That's fine.


ALSO, I think your remark that "she is everywhere but someone wants to see her " very very very naive because although there might be some small group of people, her (fans) that might want to see her, however, the vast majority of the general public does not want to see her and statistics show that. I also don't think statistics are every single thing either but they do reveal a lot about the popularity and impact of an artist. Numbers without a doubt reflect that.

According to Billboard, Beyonce sold 2 million tickets on her last tour, and grossed $256 million. If you consider that small potatoes . . . well, then that's another example of your passion unbalancing you.

Your argument doesn't make sense because the "vast majority" of the entire American populace doesn't want to see any given act in concert. That's about 330 million people. Beyonce, and acts like her, can get one out every 150 Americans or maybe 200 Americans (presuming she has repeat ticket buyers) to pay to see her perform. Reality says those numbers indicate Bey -- like her or not -- is a major draw.


I don't care how many times I hear the media call a singer the queen or the best if statistically it shows nobody is buying their music and low number ones, its false and there is an obvious disconnect there from the media and public consumer. I would hope any intelligent person would question it and that in no way makes one a hater. This is false propaganda and its serious.

I've said this before -- if Madonna had Bey's 2016 album sales in 1990, then she'd have jumped out a window. But it ain't 1990 anymore. Beyonce can sell a fraction of the albums comparable artists sold decades before and still be one of the most successful stars of her generation.

Your argument the "obvious disconnect" but that presumes that Bey's success is a media creation. It may be an INDUSTRY creation, but a lot of top selling stars are industry creations. Including the Icons you recognize. The industry helped create Bey, and the public consumer responded by patronizing her work more than most other performers for almost 15 years. Her endorsement partners, who are in the business of selling, wouldn't just give money away to her if she DIDN'T help them sell whatever they pay her to sell. You may be frustrated by it, and bewildered by her exposure, but it's . . . to use your word . . . "naive" . . . to think her success is some vast media conspiracy.

ALSO, life is not perfect, your not going to please every body. OF COURSE, There were people who may not have liked Michael, Prince, Madonna etc. HOWEVER, they made a significant impact on the industry and world that can not be disputed and their impact is still felt till this day. Beyonce has not made the same impact as therm.

Okay. But she hasn't been around long enough to get a full measure of her impact. 20 years into his career, Prince had been reduced a running joke in American culture. It was only in the years that followed that his TRUE legacy came into focus.

The dispute you have will be measured by time. You can't measure Bey's full impact for quite a while. How her legacy ages will decide the question. Maybe 10 years from now, the majority of your cohorts will agree with you. But Bey's on the Icon track now, and it's going to be hard to derail her.

Also, there is a sigificant disporportionate amont of people in this generation that find Beyonce overrated MORE so than any other era! Outside of her mediocre statistics, she has no Iconic albums, songs, videos, or moments that would even warrant her to be called an Music Icon.

That's a bold statement. Got any data to back it up? According to the Chicago Tribune, she had sold approximately 100 million records as of 2013. That's not mediocre.

Yea some might have had called Madonna overrated and some don't even like her till this day but one thing that is generally acknowledge and accepted world wide is that Madonna is a music icon that has made a big impact on pop culture and music and whether someone likes her or not, people can easily name one of Madonna iconic songs, albums and moments and no its not the same with Beyonce. I don't think people will look back and be listening to Beyonce music the same as the others or she will be revered the same.

That's an opinion that will be borne out with time. As it did with Madge. And based on the way things have unfolded thus far in her career, I don't think you're going to like the results.

Its fine if you think I am "hating on her" They called Dr. King crazy.

Seriously? You're better than this.

They called MJ crazy and so forth and in the end it turned out they were right! I have been called worse things so I don't care. I will never stop fighting for whats right because I know this propaganda is political and an agenda and I will always call it out!

Nobody's calling you anything in a negative light. Your statements do make you a detractor, and you clearly do hate that Bey gets the love she does because you think it's unwarranted. But your passion for the subject is causing you to ignore the data. Her album sales, ticket sales, endorsement deals, and media profile are not simply one big conspiracy. Like it or not, she's one of the biggest stars of her generation.

The music industry is in a dark place and they are presenting different agendas and as music lovers we should be talking about it and not acting as if it doesn't exist.

Of course music is not where we'd like it to be. But if you care about music, let Bey have her stage, and continue to support the artists that matter TO YOU.

[Edited 1/9/17 12:35pm]

[Edited 1/9/17 15:07pm]

Ive responded to this post but this thread wont let me post the response, it keeps saying "message inconsistency". I will put it in a pm, check your pm.