mjscarousal said:

RJOrion said:

when someone gives their opinion on something, there is no burden of proof required... this is not a court case where someone has to show tangible proof to support an idea or support facts, or to provide an alibi...if i say Dylan isnt worthy to hand-wash Stevie Wonder's underwear, then thats all that matters ... if you differ, thats cool as well.... you keep asking people for "proof" of their opinion...you say you're sharp, but i cant tell by your line of questioning, and your demands for "proof"...

Giving an opinion versus stating an opinion as a fact is different and if a person does not want to support their post or opinion what is the point in posting on a discussion board in the first place? If all you want to do is post your opinions and don't want anyone to respond to your posts, why not just blog? If a poster doesn't want another poster to disagree with their post or ask them to support their opinion, then they shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. If someone makes a statement as a fact that is downright false or vice versa, there is nothing wrong with anyone asking for information or facts to support the stance after all that is what you do on discussion boards. If you don't want anyone disagreeing with you, that is a immature attitude and you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board in which posters respond and give opinions, analyze, or question your post and DISCUSS.

[Edited 1/19/17 0:57am]

You two missed my point: I don't mind disagreements. I love debating and would debate a wall
if I could. My point is that to tell someone that it is "ridiculous" to hold an opinion without making
an effort to substantiate your claim is the first step towards bullying your taste. I do not like
taste-makers who are loud about their opinions but cannot back them up - it sticks in my craw.
And as of yet, no one has had the moxie to show us how it is the case that Stevie Wonder is
better than Bob Dylan. There hasn't been not one evaluative comparison of their work made with
an appeal to some acceptable standard of judging art/music. That "Heath" poster did make an
attempt to articulate why s/he PREFERS Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan, which I found admirable.
But "preferring" something over another thing doesn't make the preferred object "better" than
the other thing necessarily.

peedub said:

Dasein said:

mjscarousal said:

Giving an opinion versus stating an opinion as a fact is different and if a person does not want to support their post or opinion what is the point in posting on a discussion board in the first place? If all you want to do is post your opinions and don't want anyone to respond to your posts, why not just blog? If a poster doesn't want another poster to disagree with their post or ask them to support their opinion, then they shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. If someone makes a statement as a fact that is downright false or vice versa, there is nothing wrong with anyone asking for information or facts to support the stance after all that is what you do on discussion boards. If you don't want anyone disagreeing with you, that is a immature attitude and you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board in which posters respond and give opinions, analyze, or question your post and DISCUSS.

[Edited 1/19/17 0:57am]

You two missed my point: I don't mind disagreements. I love debating and would debate a wall
if I could. My point is that to tell someone that it is "ridiculous" to hold an opinion without making
an effort to substantiate your claim is the first step towards bullying your taste. I do not like
taste-makers who are loud about their opinions but cannot back them up - it sticks in my craw.
And as of yet, no one has had the moxie to show us how it is the case that Stevie Wonder is
better than Bob Dylan. There hasn't been not one evaluative comparison of their work made with
an appeal to some acceptable standard of judging art/music. That "Heath" poster did make an
attempt to articulate why s/he PREFERS Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan, which I found admirable.
But "preferring" something over another thing doesn't make the preferred object "better" than
the other thing necessarily.

This was the same point I was making, I was agreeing with you and disagreeing with the other poster.

Why participate on a discussion board if you dont want anybody responding or challenging your post? If you say something false, people have a right to question it. People only make that argument because they are offended when they are challenged.

mjscarousal said:

Dasein said:

You two missed my point: I don't mind disagreements. I love debating and would debate a wall
if I could. My point is that to tell someone that it is "ridiculous" to hold an opinion without making
an effort to substantiate your claim is the first step towards bullying your taste. I do not like
taste-makers who are loud about their opinions but cannot back them up - it sticks in my craw.
And as of yet, no one has had the moxie to show us how it is the case that Stevie Wonder is
better than Bob Dylan. There hasn't been not one evaluative comparison of their work made with
an appeal to some acceptable standard of judging art/music. That "Heath" poster did make an
attempt to articulate why s/he PREFERS Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan, which I found admirable.
But "preferring" something over another thing doesn't make the preferred object "better" than
the other thing necessarily.

This was the same point I was making, I was agreeing with you and disagreeing with the other poster.

Why participate on a discussion board if you dont want anybody responding or challenging your post? If you say something false, people have a right to question it. People only make that argument because they are offended when they are challenged.

My bad, MJ. I'm sorry.

RJOrion said:

i hear you mj, no disagreement with your comment at all...i just find some things to be so obvious, that spending paragraphs explaining and proving why i feel that way, is not a priority of mine...if i say, "the sky is blue", and somebody disagrees and asks me to prove and explain why the sky is blue, i know the scientific explanation as to why the sky appears to be the hue that it is, but im not gonna waste my time deliberating on the obvious...not on the internet anyway....im cool with people having differences without resolving them..no need to make someone understand why we think and feel different, we just do...im cool with that... [Edited 1/20/17 8:02am]

There is a difference between "facts" which are indisputable, such as the way light is reflected in
a clear sky indicating mostly the color blue, with "truths" which are disputable, such as whether or
not prefer Bob Dylan over Stevie Wonder; or, whether or not I find the color blue "better" than
the color grey which is also sometimes reflected in the sky.

It is not a fact that Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan; that's your truth, which is entirely
subjective, and not the same as telling us the color blue is reflected mostly in the sky during a
clear day, which is objectively factual. So, it's not a matter of it being "obvious" that Bob Dylan
is better than or worse than anybody as a recording artist.

You are confusing "facts" with "truths" and this is why your posts in this thread have been criticized
by me. "Facts" are those claims we make about existence/reality which have the support of science;
but "truths" are those claims we make about existence/reality which can have the support of science
as well, but are mostly within the realm of subjectivity. And in this conversation, we are arguing
why I think the color grey is just as beautiful as the color blue in the sky; but you're acting like
it's a matter of scientific fact that the color blue is "better" than the color grey, and this simply
ain't the case!

RJOrion said:

i hear you mj, no disagreement with your comment at all...i just find some things to be so obvious, that spending paragraphs explaining and proving why i feel that way, is not a priority of mine...if i say, "the sky is blue", and somebody disagrees and asks me to prove and explain why the sky is blue, i know the scientific explanation as to why the sky appears to be the hue that it is, but im not gonna waste my time deliberating on the obvious...not on the internet anyway....im cool with people having differences without resolving them..no need to make someone understand why we think and feel different, we just do...im cool with that... [Edited 1/20/17 8:02am]

I hear ya but its not about "resolving a difference", its about having a mature discussion and exchange of ideas.

This is a discussion board so one should be prepared to clarify or explain their posts or opinions if asked to do so. I don't respond to posters who have this above it all mentality who feel they are above explaining or providing facts for their opinions because again that is what you do on discussion boards and if one does not want to do that than they should not be on a discussion board, period. That defeats the purpose of coming on a discussion board which is intended to respond, interact and discuss with others.

[Edited 1/20/17 14:17pm]

peedub said:

peedub said:

peedub said:

peedub said:

peedub said:

...

[Edited 1/21/17 15:13pm]

heathilly said:

Dasein said:

Okay, but how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments and all that, and
vocally"? Like I asked: what evaluative tool are you using to justify this opinion and how are
you using it?

214, often when people say things like "Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan" what they really
mean is that they simply prefer listening to Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan without ever making a
serious study to compositionally compare and contrast their work. Is this what you're saying, or,
did you actually do serious study where you compared and contrasted their compositions? If you
did, I wanna know what you know!

how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments Im surprised this is even a question. Stevie is like the Mozart of the pop world when it comes to composition and arrangement of music. His music is so complex chordally and has such dimension and scope to it. It so lush it's like a tabestry of sound no one in the pop world comes close to him in this area and it's the strongest aspect of his songwriting is the music. Bob Dylan is like the antithesis of that he has better lyrics than Stevie for the most part his words have more dimension but musically it's standard blues rock or acoustic guitar music nothing spectacular. And of course when it comes to the ability to sing Stevie has one of the greatest voices ever a powerful tenor that still sounds masculine capable of expressing any emotion. Bob Dylan voice is like an acquired thing you get use to and maybe grow some attachment to how he sounds. [Edited 1/17/17 18:14pm]

Stevie Wonder is my favorite recording artist. So yes, I am partial to him over Bob Dylan. Stevie has a better voice than Bob Dylan. Now I'm no expert in Bob Dylan, but Stevie's lyrics could measure up to anyone, in my opinion. Here are some Stevie Wonder songs that have great lyrics:

Too High

Living for the City

All in Love Is Fair

You and I

Big Brother

Maybe Your Baby

Have a Talk with God

I Wish

Village Ghetto Land

Sir Duke

These Three Words

Ribbon in the Sky

I Just Called to Say I Love You

I Wish

Tell Me Something Good (performed by Rufus)

206Michelle said:

heathilly said:

Dasein said: how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments Im surprised this is even a question. Stevie is like the Mozart of the pop world when it comes to composition and arrangement of music. His music is so complex chordally and has such dimension and scope to it. It so lush it's like a tabestry of sound no one in the pop world comes close to him in this area and it's the strongest aspect of his songwriting is the music. Bob Dylan is like the antithesis of that he has better lyrics than Stevie for the most part his words have more dimension but musically it's standard blues rock or acoustic guitar music nothing spectacular. And of course when it comes to the ability to sing Stevie has one of the greatest voices ever a powerful tenor that still sounds masculine capable of expressing any emotion. Bob Dylan voice is like an acquired thing you get use to and maybe grow some attachment to how he sounds. [Edited 1/17/17 18:14pm]

Stevie Wonder is my favorite recording artist. So yes, I am partial to him over Bob Dylan. Stevie has a better voice than Bob Dylan. Now I'm no expert in Bob Dylan, but Stevie's lyrics could measure up to anyone, in my opinion. Here are some Stevie Wonder songs that have great lyrics:

Too High

Living for the City

All in Love Is Fair

You and I

Big Brother

Maybe Your Baby

Have a Talk with God

I Wish

Village Ghetto Land

Sir Duke

These Three Words

Ribbon in the Sky

I Just Called to Say I Love You

I Wish

Tell Me Something Good (performed by Rufus)

I agree with you but I must concede bob dylans a better lyricist his lyrics more complex, broad and nuisanced than stevies. Stevies lyrics are more a proclamation of an emotion that emotion usually being love. Stevie music in complexity is to bob dylans lyrics as bob dylans music is to stevies lyrics. Joni mitchell's better than both of them to me lyrically.

RJOrion said:

NorthC said:

How many horses have we killed by now? Leave those poor animals alone!

ahaha you're sp funny

heathilly said:

206Michelle said:

Stevie Wonder is my favorite recording artist. So yes, I am partial to him over Bob Dylan. Stevie has a better voice than Bob Dylan. Now I'm no expert in Bob Dylan, but Stevie's lyrics could measure up to anyone, in my opinion. Here are some Stevie Wonder songs that have great lyrics:

Too High

Living for the City

All in Love Is Fair

You and I

Big Brother

Maybe Your Baby

Have a Talk with God

I Wish

Village Ghetto Land

Sir Duke

These Three Words

Ribbon in the Sky

I Just Called to Say I Love You

I Wish

Tell Me Something Good (performed by Rufus)

I agree with you but I must concede bob dylans a better lyricist his lyrics more complex, broad and nuisanced than stevies. Stevies lyrics are more a proclamation of an emotion that emotion usually being love. Stevie music in complexity is to bob dylans lyrics as bob dylans music is to stevies lyrics. Joni mitchell's better than both of them to me lyrically.

What do you think is her best song lyrically,i mean Joni?

214 said:

heathilly said:

I agree with you but I must concede bob dylans a better lyricist his lyrics more complex, broad and nuisanced than stevies. Stevies lyrics are more a proclamation of an emotion that emotion usually being love. Stevie music in complexity is to bob dylans lyrics as bob dylans music is to stevies lyrics. Joni mitchell's better than both of them to me lyrically.

What do you think is her best song lyrically,i mean Joni?

Dont interrupt the sorrow comes to mind immediately amelia is also extremely evocative. She has alot good ones though.

206Michelle said:

heathilly said:

Dasein said: how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments Im surprised this is even a question. Stevie is like the Mozart of the pop world when it comes to composition and arrangement of music. His music is so complex chordally and has such dimension and scope to it. It so lush it's like a tabestry of sound no one in the pop world comes close to him in this area and it's the strongest aspect of his songwriting is the music. Bob Dylan is like the antithesis of that he has better lyrics than Stevie for the most part his words have more dimension but musically it's standard blues rock or acoustic guitar music nothing spectacular. And of course when it comes to the ability to sing Stevie has one of the greatest voices ever a powerful tenor that still sounds masculine capable of expressing any emotion. Bob Dylan voice is like an acquired thing you get use to and maybe grow some attachment to how he sounds. [Edited 1/17/17 18:14pm]

Stevie Wonder is my favorite recording artist. So yes, I am partial to him over Bob Dylan. Stevie has a better voice than Bob Dylan. Now I'm no expert in Bob Dylan, but Stevie's lyrics could measure up to anyone, in my opinion. Here are some Stevie Wonder songs that have great lyrics:

Too High

Living for the City

All in Love Is Fair

You and I

Big Brother

Maybe Your Baby

Have a Talk with God

I Wish

Village Ghetto Land

Sir Duke

These Three Words

Ribbon in the Sky

I Just Called to Say I Love You

I Wish

Tell Me Something Good (performed by Rufus)

These two are not great lyrics, especially I Just

heathilly said:

214 said:

What do you think is her best song lyrically,i mean Joni?

Dont interrupt the sorrow comes to mind immediately amelia is also extremely evocative. She has alot good ones though.

What the hell is she talkin about in that song? weird lyrics.

214 said:

heathilly said:

214 said:

What the hell is she talkin about in that song? weird lyrics.

Shes talking about dealing with a weak man basically from a strong woman's perspective. When she says anima rising she talking about the feminine part of man coming out to put her the strong women in her place. Hence lines like "in flames our prophet witches be polite" saying women should mind their toungue see what happens when they speak. And "we walked on the moon be polite" saying look what man has accomplished be respectful be polite stay in a woman's place. Than the woman retaliates with "I'm leaving on the 1:15 your darn right since I was seventeen I've had no one over me" she going out on her own to live her life she doesn't need a man to rule over her and that darn right puts emphasis on her strong attitude. The man replies back "so what petrified wood process tall timber down to rock" meaning it doesn't matter how tall you are you can be brought down to nothing. She than goes to say in lines "Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean Winds of change patriarchs Snug in your bible belt dreams God goes up the chimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause" The Bible is used as a tool to subjugate women and make them obedient to men. And theres woman who follow obediently because how dare anyone defy god. And some women reject simply to be a rebel. Theres a lot in this song it takes listening a few times to get it fully. But this type of writing is brilliant and the reason she unparalleled. [Edited 1/22/17 19:06pm]

Interesting, thanks. Perhaps i should take a listen, i listened A Case Of U but did not like her voice.

214 said:

Musicslave said:

namepeace said:

James had a little more going for him than that, with songs like "Say It Loud," "I Don't Want Nobody . . ." and "Man's World" (famously performed in later years with Pavarotti).

That said, I see your point.

-

-

Never heard/saw this before....Thanks for the lead namepeace.

Luciano's voice is angelic. Loved this!

Musicslave said:

namepeace said:

James had a little more going for him than that, with songs like "Say It Loud," "I Don't Want Nobody . . ." and "Man's World" (famously performed in later years with Pavarotti).

That said, I see your point.

-

-

Never heard/saw this before....Thanks for the lead namepeace.

Returning the favor to you . . .

why do people on here always do comparitive studies on these artists.....