214 said:

Having said that, music wise, Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie.

206Michelle said:

214 said:

Having said that, music wise, Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie.

But i love wholeheartedly his music. Actually both men's music.

I think that’s where we need to attribute the greatness of an artist’s contribution and output to ‘Michael Jackson & Collaborators’, rather than just to MJ. MJ was good but wouldn’t have been as good without Quincy Jones, Rod Temperton, etc.

Same for Madonna (and I’m a huge Madge fan). Her creative run needs to be attributed to ‘Madonna & Collaborators’, like Nile Rogers, Jellybean, Pat Leonard, etc. Not that Madge and MJ aren’t all time great artists, but others like Prince stand alone. And I can see how he might have gotten wound up when being compared to MJ, because you’re not comparing one man with another … you’re comparing one man to a team of people.

What's wrong with collaborators? Having teamwork in no way demeans an artist work to me. Collaboration is not a bad word in my book. Most of the best music has come from collaborators. The Beatles, Elton John etc. Thank God for collaboration.

Everyone collabs to some extent even the lone geniuses working by candle light in the dead of night how prince and stevie are romantically painted had wendy, lisa, eric leeds, for prince and Cecil and Margouleff for stevie both at the period considered there greatest peaks musically and artistically. Of course it was these artist vision that made the music what it was. But nobody truly works completely alone. But people love the romanic notion of the lone genius when it fact it was prince and his collaborators stevie and his the beatles and george martin etc. They all could of made music on there own but would it reach the high peaks of innervisons purple rain sgt pepper its impossbile to say.

[Edited 1/17/17 7:42am]

206Michelle said:

214 said:

Having said that, music wise, Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie.

How is this the case?

The band that has had the most covered songs in the field of recording arts ought to have a
dog in this fight, so I think the most influential creative run in the history of popular music
belongs to the Beatles.

From 1965 - 1970 (Help! to Let it Be), you have the arrival of Sgt. Pepper's which is really the
most influential album of all time, imo. In fact, if you wait for a recording artist to release an
album as one cohesive and artistic statement, then you are indebted to the aforementioned LP.

Dasein said:

The band that has had the most covered songs in the field of recording arts ought to have a dog in this fight, so I think the most influential creative run in the history of popular music belongs to the Beatles.

From 1965 - 1970 (Help! to Let it Be), you have the arrival of Sgt. Pepper's which is really the most influential album of all time, imo. In fact, if you wait for a recording artist to release an album as one cohesive and artistic statement, then you are indebted to the aforementioned LP.

That's a legitimate argument. It's been said, though, that the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds,
released in 1966, had a considerable influence on the making of Sgt. Pepper. Sounds is widely considered to be every bit the artistic statement Sgt. Pepper is, though the Boys' run overall pales in comparison to the Beatles.

Also, if the issue is "greatest" creative run (in the OP) as opposed to "most influential" creative run (quoted above) I still vote for Stevie. While the Beatles were a commercial phenomenon and their artistic legacy takes a backseat to no one, Stevie was the sole driving force behind his run, and Stevie's appeal was arguably broader, as he crossed audiences of all races.

DaveT said:

Dasein said:

206Michelle said:

How is this the case?

What?

cherishtheday said:

What's wrong with collaborators? Having teamwork in no way demeans an artist work to me. Collaboration is not a bad word in my book. Most of the best music has come from collaborators. The Beatles, Elton John etc. Thank God for collaboration.

Didn't say there was anything wrong with it ... but in the case of this debate, the greatest creative run, I'd give more kudos to someone who did more of it themselves than someone that needed a lot of collaborators to achieve what they achieved.

namepeace said:

Dasein said:

The band that has had the most covered songs in the field of recording arts ought to have a dog in this fight, so I think the most influential creative run in the history of popular music belongs to the Beatles.

From 1965 - 1970 (Help! to Let it Be), you have the arrival of Sgt. Pepper's which is really the most influential album of all time, imo. In fact, if you wait for a recording artist to release an album as one cohesive and artistic statement, then you are indebted to the aforementioned LP.

That's a legitimate argument. It's been said, though, that the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds,
released in 1966, had a considerable influence on the making of Sgt. Pepper. Sounds is widely considered to be every bit the artistic statement Sgt. Pepper is, though the Boys' run overall pales in comparison to the Beatles.

Also, if the issue is "greatest" creative run (in the OP) as opposed to "most influential" creative run (quoted above) I still vote for Stevie. While the Beatles were a commercial phenomenon and their artistic legacy takes a backseat to no one, (1) Stevie was the sole driving force behind his run, and (2) Stevie's appeal was arguably broader, as he crossed audiences of all races.

Yes; McCartney has said that Pet Sounds was to him what Hume was to Kant. But this is mostly
only in terms of music composition. The recording techniques the Beatles (including Sir Martin, rip)
utilized are what sets Sgt. Pepper's over Pet Sounds personally. Another factor influencing my
opinion is that Pet Sounds contains a toss-off: "Sloop John B." And don't forget: Rubber Soul was
impetus for the creation of Pet Sounds! Speaking of PS, "God Only Knows" is so harmonically
advanced for what is typically considered a pop song that I dare say it was actually a classical
music piece simply posing as a pop song! That song is fucken perfect.

You're still one of the sharpest minds around here, NP, as you caught on to how I changed the
complexion of the conversation just a tad by removing "greatest" for "influential." The former
is a concept very much open to interpretation as it is so subjective (which means a stupid person's
opinion has some of weight, to my chagrin) while the latter is closer to being quantifiable. But
I disagree with you for these reasons:

1) Stevie Wonder didn't create his music in a vacuum; he had various contributing songwriters,
musicians, etc. who all played a role in helping him realize his artistic vision. The fact that the
Beatles had three superb songwriters in-house shouldn't be penalized here as neither was Wonder
the "sole driving force behind his run."

2) Here is a list of recording artists who have covered the Beatles - for example:

Count Basie

The Bee Gees
Booker T and the MGs
David Bowie
The Brothers Johnson
Nick Cave
Bing Crosby
Frank Sinatra
Danger Mouse
Placido Domingo
En Vogue
Boyz II Men
BLACKstreet
Stone Temple Pilots
Earth, Wind, & Fire
Richie Havens

Jimi Hendrix
Al Jarreau
Billy Joel

Elton John
Ramsey Lewis
Santana
Sarah Vaughn

Nina Simone

Stevie Wonder

The Beatles crossed many categories too! And I don't think your argument here treats the sheer
numbers of Beatles cover songs performed by recording artists! That alone speaks to the amount
of influence they've had!

214 said:

Dasein said:

How is this the case?

What?

What is your argument that shows, or proves that Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie Wonder?
Or, what was your evaluative process indicating one is better than the other?

gandorb said:

Nothing wrong with collaboration. However, I do respect the artists who are able to be a key influence on all ( or at least most) areas of the creative process. Would Michael rate so high if he couldn't dance at all, or Prince if he could write songs and sing but couldn't play any instuments. Nothing wrong with being a great interpretive singer but that still doesn't compare to the greatest musical artists who do many things well.

MJ and Prince did though. MJ wrote more than 80% of his catalog himself and most of his hits, Billie Jean, Don't Stop Till You Get Enough, The Way You Make Me Feel, etc were written by him solely, the same with Prince.

The reason why I say MJ has one of the greatest pop catalogs is because he wrote really good pop music that transcends era, time and culture. His music still gets played on the radio heavy till this day and still causes hysteria and continues to be impactful to generations that came after. The impact his music has on people has nothing to do with his performing abilities. MJ has been gone for 8 years and last year MJ had four albums that charted on Billboard Top 100, same with Prince (although I know he just passed) but his Purple Rain album was the highest sold by a male last year besides Drake.

Dasein said:

namepeace said:

That's a legitimate argument. It's been said, though, that the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds,
released in 1966, had a considerable influence on the making of Sgt. Pepper. Sounds is widely considered to be every bit the artistic statement Sgt. Pepper is, though the Boys' run overall pales in comparison to the Beatles.

Also, if the issue is "greatest" creative run (in the OP) as opposed to "most influential" creative run (quoted above) I still vote for Stevie. While the Beatles were a commercial phenomenon and their artistic legacy takes a backseat to no one, (1) Stevie was the sole driving force behind his run, and (2) Stevie's appeal was arguably broader, as he crossed audiences of all races.

Yes; McCartney has said that Pet Sounds was to him what Hume was to Kant. But this is mostly
only in terms of music composition. The recording techniques the Beatles (including Sir Martin, rip)
utilized are what sets Sgt. Pepper's over Pet Sounds personally. Another factor influencing my
opinion is that Pet Sounds contains a toss-off: "Sloop John B." And don't forget: Rubber Soul was
impetus for the creation of Pet Sounds! Speaking of PS, "God Only Knows" is so harmonically
advanced for what is typically considered a pop song that I dare say it was actually a classical
music piece simply posing as a pop song! That song is fucken perfect.

You're still one of the sharpest minds around here, NP, as you caught on to how I changed the
complexion of the conversation just a tad by removing "greatest" for "influential." The former
is a concept very much open to interpretation as it is so subjective (which means a stupid person's
opinion has some of weight, to my chagrin) while the latter is closer to being quantifiable. But
I disagree with you for these reasons:

1) Stevie Wonder didn't create his music in a vacuum; he had various contributing songwriters,
musicians, etc. who all played a role in helping him realize his artistic vision. The fact that the
Beatles had three superb songwriters in-house shouldn't be penalized here as neither was Wonder
the "sole driving force behind his run."

Yes, that was a bit over the top. Soundbreakers alludes to Stevie's key collaborators, and artists from Syreeta Wright to Ray Parker, Jr. and more owns a piece of that run.

2) Here is a list of recording artists who have covered the Beatles - for example:

Count Basie

The Bee Gees
Booker T and the MGs
David Bowie
The Brothers Johnson
Nick Cave
Bing Crosby
Frank Sinatra
Danger Mouse
Placido Domingo
En Vogue
Boyz II Men
BLACKstreet
Stone Temple Pilots
Earth, Wind, & Fire
Richie Havens

Jimi Hendrix
Al Jarreau
Billy Joel

Elton John
Ramsey Lewis
Santana
Sarah Vaughn

Nina Simone

Stevie Wonder

The Beatles crossed many categories too! And I don't think your argument here treats the sheernumbers of Beatles cover songs performed by recording artists! That alone speaks to the amount of influence they've had!

Fair point. But note I actually mentioned cover versions as a factor in the debate, in discussing Dylan's legacy, not the Beatles. I certainly take it into account, if not explicitly in my Beatles posts. I own several of them myself.

The Beatles crossed into several genres of music, but did they crossover to audiences the way Stevie did? I think Stevie's impact across audiences, as opposed to genres, was greater.

But I'd also add that artists from Ol' Blue Eyes to Arturo Sandoval to the Foreign Exchange have covered Stevie as well. Fair points, but I still take Stevie.*

*FWIW, The Epic is mindblowing.

Well, I think given by the various ethnic backgrounds of the artists I listed in my post who covered
their songs, we could imagine the Beatles' influence easily going beyond White/European audiences!
But you raise a fair point: often with my homeboys, who are musicians, we use the following hypo-
thetical to gauge whether or not an artist deserves major props:

At the height of your artistic powers, could you sell out in Africa?

Yes; we know Stevie Wonder could have done so. But I'm not too sure about the Beatles . . .

Anyways, yes, I would think the Beatles put together the most impressively influential creative run in
the history of popular music and not too far behind is Stevie Wonder.

[Edited 1/17/17 15:03pm]

Dasein said:

214 said:

What?

What is your argument that shows, or proves that Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie Wonder?
Or, what was your evaluative process indicating one is better than the other?

None, i have zero musicl knowledge you just have to listen, everyone can tell just for listening.

214 said:

Dasein said:

What is your argument that shows, or proves that Bob Dylan can't hold a candle to Stevie Wonder?
Or, what was your evaluative process indicating one is better than the other?

None, i have zero musicl knowledge you just have to listen, everyone can tell just for listening.

Weird.

I've listened to both artists and I don't think I would ever say one is so much better than
the other definitively. I prefer listening to Stevie Wonder but I would never venture to say
that Bob Dylan is completely inferior as an artist in comparison as the reason for my pre-
ference.

Dasein said:

214 said:

None, i have zero musicl knowledge you just have to listen, everyone can tell just for listening.

Weird.

I've listened to both artists and I don't think I would ever say one is so much better than
the other definitively. I prefer listening to Stevie Wonder but I would never venture to say
that Bob Dylan is completely inferior as an artist in comparison as the reason for my pre-
ference.

I mean just musically, arrangements and all that, and vocally.

214 said:

Dasein said:

Weird.

I've listened to both artists and I don't think I would ever say one is so much better than
the other definitively. I prefer listening to Stevie Wonder but I would never venture to say
that Bob Dylan is completely inferior as an artist in comparison as the reason for my pre-
ference.

I mean just musically, arrangements and all that, and vocally.

Okay, but how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments and all that, and
vocally"? Like I asked: what evaluative tool are you using to justify this opinion and how are
you using it?

214, often when people say things like "Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan" what they really
mean is that they simply prefer listening to Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan without ever making a
serious study to compositionally compare and contrast their work. Is this what you're saying, or,
did you actually do serious study where you compared and contrasted their compositions? If you
did, I wanna know what you know!

Dasein said:

214 said:

I mean just musically, arrangements and all that, and vocally.

Okay, but how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments and all that, and
vocally"? Like I asked: what evaluative tool are you using to justify this opinion and how are
you using it?

214, often when people say things like "Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan" what they really
mean is that they simply prefer listening to Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan without ever making a
serious study to compositionally compare and contrast their work. Is this what you're saying, or,
did you actually do serious study where you compared and contrasted their compositions? If you
did, I wanna know what you know!

Actually i like Dylan a little more than Stevie, no i haven´t i told you i have zero musical knowledge

Dasein said:

Dasein said:

214 said:

I mean just musically, arrangements and all that, and vocally.

Okay, but how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments and all that, and
vocally"? Like I asked: what evaluative tool are you using to justify this opinion and how are
you using it?

214, often when people say things like "Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan" what they really
mean is that they simply prefer listening to Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan without ever making a
serious study to compositionally compare and contrast their work. Is this what you're saying, or,
did you actually do serious study where you compared and contrasted their compositions? If you
did, I wanna know what you know!

I simply cannot take this as a serious question.

RJOrion said:

i cant believe what im reading...Bob Dylan is in no way, better than, equal to, or even remotely comparable to Stevie Wonder, on any level...just stop it...Bob Dylan himself would probably never make such a ridiculous statement...

Exactly.

RJOrion said:

i cant believe what im reading...Bob Dylan is in no way, better than, equal to, or even remotely comparable to Stevie Wonder, on any level...just stop it...Bob Dylan himself would probably never make such a ridiculous statement...

Show me how!

Bob Dylan has released 38 albums while Stevie Wonder has released 23 - you're meaning to tell
me that you've listened to each of those albums and then were able to make an unbiased deter-
mination as to why one artist is "better" than the other with access to means that doesn't exist?

The very fact that you're using phrases like "better than," and "equal to," and "remotely com-
parable" when it comes to talking about art tells me that you probably don't know what you're
talking about. There is NO objective tool in existence that definitively proves that Object A
is artistically superior/inferior than Object B inherently.

Essentially, what you and Graycap23 are doing is bullying your taste onto others so that the person
who enjoys Bob Dylan more than Stevie Wonder is instantly placed on the defensive, or, justifiably
should have their taste in music questioned. But Bob Dylan's art is just as good/bad/mediocre as
Stevie Wonder's art: it's all just a matter of taste and preference. But please stop acting like you've
access to some mysterious ability to tell people that their preference in music sucks based upon
some type of objective and scientific method you conducted apart from your own taste and
preference.

For the record, I would prefer to listen to Stevie Wonder than Bob Dylan. But tell that to Jimi
Hendrix.

heathilly said:

Dasein said:

Okay, but how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments and all that, and
vocally"? Like I asked: what evaluative tool are you using to justify this opinion and how are
you using it?

214, often when people say things like "Stevie Wonder is better than Bob Dylan" what they really
mean is that they simply prefer listening to Stevie Wonder over Bob Dylan without ever making a
serious study to compositionally compare and contrast their work. Is this what you're saying, or,
did you actually do serious study where you compared and contrasted their compositions? If you
did, I wanna know what you know!

how does Stevie Wonder best Bob Dylan "musically, arrangments Im surprised this is even a question. Stevie is like the Mozart of the pop world when it comes to composition and arrangement of music. His music is so complex chordally and has such dimension and scope to it. It so lush it's like a tabestry of sound no one in the pop world comes close to him in this area and it's the strongest aspect of his songwriting is the music. Bob Dylan is like the antithesis of that he has better lyrics than Stevie for the most part his words have more dimension but musically it's standard blues rock or acoustic guitar music nothing spectacular. And of course when it comes to the ability to sing Stevie has one of the greatest voices ever a powerful tenor that still sounds masculine capable of expressing any emotion. Bob Dylan voice is like an acquired thing you get use to and maybe grow some attachment to how he sounds. [Edited 1/17/17 18:14pm]

You said it so much better than me.