mnbvc said:

Hudson said:

Yes, the media is lying about her achievements, but after 1993 none of the legends you mentioned ever had a huge album that went over 4x platinum. Dangerously in Love went 5x and Rihanna certainly hasn't sold more albums. Her most successful was 3x. Britney's 2 albums were released 17 months apart at the height of the teen pop era before Napster when she was basically the female Nsync. She fell hard and fast after that. Whitney is the only black woman in history to have a true diamond album (10 million sold, not just shipped).

The other thing I would say about Spears' album sales is that she clearly had much better competion than Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Rihanna and still dominated that era in sales. So you can't really undervalue her commercial success at that time.

I also wouldn't say she fell of too hard after that either because Spears' third higest selling album, Britney, has sold roughly as much as Beyonce's highest selling album, Dangerously in Love, with global sales at around 10 million each according to the most conservative estimates.

As has been pointed out, Usher, who most probably would never think was ever as big as Beyonce, has a diamond certified album, unlike Beyonce.

[Edited 12/18/16 11:43am]

[Edited 12/18/16 11:45am]

Which lets us know that Usher had a bigger peak in popularity than Beyonce during the early 2000's AND Usher's Confessions is revered as a classic now (which it deserves it was a really good R&B album). Usher's Confessions was the biggest selling album (by a black or white artist) last decade.THAT is why when people say well Beyonce out lasted her peers (i.e. Spears, Usher, Aguilera, etc).... I SAY well at least all of her peers have at least one classic album AND they also have at least one album that has sold over 20 units ww while Beyonce does not despite "lasting" longer. So IMO, I would say the former still win overall. It just shows that all this media saturation and industry ass kissing that Beyonce gets is all a crock of bullshit. I don't think she has lasted either because commercially we see that Adele, Drake and Rihanna blow her out the water. Beyonce relevancy is based on the fact that the damn media won't STFU about her.

And your right about Britney!!! Britney had way WAY harder competition than Beyonce and still out performed her commercially. Britney was competing with Backstreet Boys, Nsync, Spice Girls (these bands were HUGE back in the day and they each are top seller lists, Nsync to a lesser degree) and I believe Backstreet Boys also have a diamond album. She competed with Norah Jones, Aguilera, etc who sold fairly well during that time too.

[Edited 12/18/16 15:42pm]

Power to do what?

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

The other thing I would say about Spears' album sales is that she clearly had much better competion than Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Rihanna and still dominated that era in sales. So you can't really undervalue her commercial success at that time.

I also wouldn't say she fell of too hard after that either because Spears' third higest selling album, Britney, has sold roughly as much as Beyonce's highest selling album, Dangerously in Love, with global sales at around 10 million each according to the most conservative estimates.

As has been pointed out, Usher, who most probably would never think was ever as big as Beyonce, has a diamond certified album, unlike Beyonce.

[Edited 12/18/16 11:43am]

[Edited 12/18/16 11:45am]

Which lets us know that Usher had a bigger peak in popularity than Beyonce during the early 2000's AND Usher's Confessions is revered as a classic now (which it deserves it was a really good R&B album). Usher's Confessions was the biggest selling album (by a black or white artist) last decade.THAT is why when people say well Beyonce out lasted her peers (i.e. Spears, Usher, Aguilera, etc).... I SAY well at least all of her peers have at least one classic album AND they also have at least one album that has sold over 20 units ww while Beyonce does not despite "lasting" longer. So IMO, I would say the former still win overall. It just shows that all this media saturation and industry ass kissing that Beyonce gets is all a crock of bullshit. I don't think she has lasted either because commercially we see that Adele, Drake and Rihanna blow her out the water. Beyonce relevancy is based on the fact that the damn media won't STFU about her.

And your right about Britney!!! Britney had way WAY harder competition than Beyonce and still out performed her commercially. Britney was competing with Backstreet Boys, Nsync, Spice Girls (these bands were HUGE back in the day and they each are top seller lists, Nsync to a lesser degree) and I believe Backstreet Boys also have a diamond album. She competed with Norah Jones, Aguilera, etc who sold fairly well during that time too.

[Edited 12/18/16 15:42pm]

Yes, The Backstreet Boys and NSYNC both have diamond albums (NSYNC has two and some of the Backstreet Boys' earlier releases weren't realeased in the US). And during that time Spears' competition also included Eminem, Santana, Creed, and Ricky Martiin and she was still near the very top. Its simply preposterous that Beyonce at her peak was/is as big or a bigger star than Spears at her peak.

Yeah, Usher is very underrated. Confessions is not only a classic, but one of the best-selling albums of the 2000s. I mean, when people talk about Beyonce's discography, who the media has helped make into a big star, are they going to talk about Dangerously in Love (her best selling album)? An album that has only sold a little over 5 million in the United States and 10 million globally? Its not terrible, but for the "biggest star since Michael Jackson", it leaves a lot to be desired. (Adele's album sales have likely surpassed Beyonces entire album discography by now.)

[Edited 12/18/16 17:13pm]

O f course Britney is way more iconic than Beyoncé, but to me, Adele is much more overrated than Beyoncé, and look how much she has sold with two albums. Her music is everything but groundbreaking, Beyoncé's music is a little bit more exciting than Adele's, although i like Adele better. Sales don't mean much, you should know by now. Sly,Funkadelic never were great sellers and Prince aside from Purple Rain and Diamonds and Pearls was neither, and yet they are considered as great artists.

mjscarousal said:

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

@ mjcarousel

Although I can't say I know much of Britney Spears catalogue, this thread has been interesting.

The problem is that (Beyonce) she gets so much media saturation, I wonder at times if some of these "pieces" in papers, blogs, etc are just glorified press releases. Everything is so sychronized with her media machine that this all seems like a coordinated effort leading to the Grammy Awards.

We've (you and I) stated it on another thread and I would say it again: SHe is an "icon" without an iconic moment. She has broken no new ground culturally, musically, or otherwise, but is always front and center absorbing the spotlight or getting credit for things that were done (much better) by her predecessors. This newest accolade is almost par for the course for her, so nothing surprises me anymore.

[Edited 12/18/16 6:29am]

I remember when you said this and I completely agree! However, how can one be an Icon without any true Iconic moments? I don't consider Beyonce an "Icon" and most people I talk too don't either. I think lastdecember is spot on with his sentiments with Beyonce being more so a "media brand" than anything else. The bolded of your post is excellent, AMAZING and spot on!

This is why my theory has always been that there is an industry agenda going on to push Beyonce as the greatest artist of all time because as you stated yourself, her media saturation is always sychronized with the releases of the Grammys, award shows etc. I DO think a lot of these publications are direct press releases from her camp. HOWEVER, I also believe a lot of the media and industry ass kissing is purposeful as well. What do you think of this theory? Or what are you thoughts on why she is being so heavily pushed? I really appreciate this insightful post!

It's hard to say what the media end game is with Beyonce. Part of me thinks she is pushed so hard because she is almost the "last girl standing".

Reason#1

If you rewind to the late 90's, eary 2000's, you had Ashante, Amerie, Aliyah (sp?), Tweet, Ciara and numerous others on the Pop/R&B front. In an almost Darwinian way, she was the "strongest" of the era (as it relates to the Pop/R&B sound) among the female singers and was able to leave a successful group and become a successful singer. The other singers did not have the push (Papa Knowles) she had and I believe she was savvy enough to know when to break from the group sound.

Good songs, a modicum of stage presence (borrowed heavily from Tina Turner), videos, collaborators (Neyo) and attractiveness greatly aided her. Additionally (and not to sound too cynical), but even her marriage to Jay Z is one that gave her additional street cred while allowing her to still have her toe in the pop music world, creating a perfect storm of mainstream acceptance. She can still get R&B airplay, but can still get played on Top 40 stations.

Reason #2

I also think that since she had crossed paths with real icons (Prince and MJ, who both held her in some kind of esteem), it was the media's way of co signing that since MJ and Prince like her (and are cultural/musical icons), then Beyonce (by osmosis) is an "icon". If she was just accepted by someone with less iconic status, she would be a middle of the pack entertainer (in terms of mainstream acceptance).

Reason #3

As I stated before, the end game is kind of vague at this point. Even the whole Super Bowl, Lemonade controversies (Formation, "Becky with the Good Hair") all seemed forced and not authentic. Her fans seem to eat up the illusion of her as a deep, artistic person with the new album, but my personal opinion is that she rides whatever the culture is experiencing at the moment.

As I said before, the "icon"(tongue planted firmly in cheek), fits this era, but in the sense of icons of years past, she is lacking that something.

214 said:

O f course Britney is way more iconic than Beyoncé, but to me, Adele is much more overrated than Beyoncé, and look how much she has sold with two albums. Her music is everything but groundbreaking, Beyoncé's music is a little bit more exciting than Adele's, although i like Adele better. Sales don't mean much, you should know by now. Sly,Funkadelic never were great sellers and Prince aside from Purple Rain and Diamonds and Pearls was neither, and yet they are considered as great artists.

1.I don't think sales matter at all with music pioneers or groundbreaking artists or previous generations in general. My absolute favorite artist, Marvin Gaye is not one of the best selling-artists of all time but nobody cares whatsoever because he's one of the 20 greatest artists. Sales aren't the standard for these people (Gaye, Prince, Sly Funkadelic etc.)

2.I think sales should absoultely factor in for evaluating contemporary artists since neither Beyonce, Britney Spears, Rihanna, or Adele are groundbreaking or pioneering. Like I said Beyonce is a more talented vocalist than Britney Spears but other than that, she's blatantly not a more talented artist than Britney Spears. I keep seeing these idiots say Beyonce is a "once in a generation talent". What is this based on? She's clearly not a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears and she's clearly not a more talented dancer than Britney Spears. (In terms of dancing, while they are two different types of dancers they'd probably be in the same echelon behind Janet Jackson, Paula Abdul and Jlo.) Technically, Beyonce tries to sing and dance, but her dancing is inarguably vastly inferior to Janet Jackson in terms of skill.

3.As for Adele, her music may be overrated, but her sales are breathtaking and must be acknowledged. She's on track on being one of the five biggest album sellers with Whitney Houston and Barbara Streisand. Houston is a great artist due to her great singing ability but also her massive influence on successful female artists like Dion, Carey, Brandy, Spears, Aguilera, Beyonce, P!nk, Keys etc; artists who inspired to sing and/or enter the industry simply because of listening to Houston sing. Beyonce obviously will not have this type of impact.

[Edited 12/18/16 19:06pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:07pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:08pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:09pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:11pm]

mnbvc said:

mjscarousal said:

Which lets us know that Usher had a bigger peak in popularity than Beyonce during the early 2000's AND Usher's Confessions is revered as a classic now (which it deserves it was a really good R&B album). Usher's Confessions was the biggest selling album (by a black or white artist) last decade.THAT is why when people say well Beyonce out lasted her peers (i.e. Spears, Usher, Aguilera, etc).... I SAY well at least all of her peers have at least one classic album AND they also have at least one album that has sold over 20 units ww while Beyonce does not despite "lasting" longer. So IMO, I would say the former still win overall. It just shows that all this media saturation and industry ass kissing that Beyonce gets is all a crock of bullshit. I don't think she has lasted either because commercially we see that Adele, Drake and Rihanna blow her out the water. Beyonce relevancy is based on the fact that the damn media won't STFU about her.

And your right about Britney!!! Britney had way WAY harder competition than Beyonce and still out performed her commercially. Britney was competing with Backstreet Boys, Nsync, Spice Girls (these bands were HUGE back in the day and they each are top seller lists, Nsync to a lesser degree) and I believe Backstreet Boys also have a diamond album. She competed with Norah Jones, Aguilera, etc who sold fairly well during that time too.

[Edited 12/18/16 15:42pm]

Yes, The Backstreet Boys and NSYNC both have diamond albums (NSYNC has two and some of the Backstreet Boys' earlier releases weren't realeased in the US). And during that time Spears' competition also included Eminem, Santana, Creed, and Ricky Martiin and she was still near the very top. Its simply preposterous that Beyonce at her peak was/is as big or a bigger star than Spears at her peak.

Yeah, Usher is very underrated. Confessions is not only a classic, but one of the best-selling albums of the 2000s. I mean, when people talk about Beyonce's discography, who the media has helped make into a big star, are they going to talk about Dangerously in Love (her best selling album)? An album that has only sold a little over 5 million in the United States and 10 million globally? Its not terrible, but for the "biggest star since Michael Jackson", it leaves a lot to be desired. (Adele's album sales have likely surpassed Beyonces entire album discography by now.)

[Edited 12/18/16 17:13pm]

Beyonce was never bigger than Britney Spears.

Also, your right Usher is very underrated. He is very underrated as a singer too. Besides the Confessions album, he also has multiple songs that are classics and out of all the MJ carbon copies over the years (Ginuwine, Omarion, Neyo, Chris Brown etc ) He was the best overall and was still able to incorporate his own style and Michael actually tried to mentor him. Its strange to me that Usher was never asked to do the Super Bowl during his peak.

You brought up a really good point that I want to elaborate on and suppots this theory. Your right, the MEDIA and INDUSTRY have made Beyonce into a star. She didn't become this star off her own merit because it is clear based on numbers and statistcs she is not this big star that the media makes her out to be and public is not interested in her. Without the machine behind her, Beyonce would not have been a star, a truly believe that. People trash Rihanna but Rihanna was BORN to be a star, she has natural charisma, funny, intelligent and is interesting. She has natural star power and that is why despite the snubbing she gets, she will always be a star

mnbvc said:

214 said:

O f course Britney is way more iconic than Beyoncé, but to me, Adele is much more overrated than Beyoncé, and look how much she has sold with two albums. Her music is everything but groundbreaking, Beyoncé's music is a little bit more exciting than Adele's, although i like Adele better. Sales don't mean much, you should know by now. Sly,Funkadelic never were great sellers and Prince aside from Purple Rain and Diamonds and Pearls was neither, and yet they are considered as great artists.

1.I don't think sales matter at all with music pioneers or groundbreaking artists or previous generations in general. My absolute favorite artist, Marvin Gaye is not one of the best selling-artists of all time but nobody cares whatsoever because he's one of the 20 greatest artists. Sales aren't the standard for these people (Gaye, Prince, Sly Funkadelic etc.)

2.I think sales should absoultely factor in for evaluating contemporary artists since neither Beyonce, Britney Spears, Rihanna, or Adele are groundbreaking or pioneering. Like I said Beyonce is a more talented vocalist than Britney Spears but other than that, she's blatantly not a more talented artist than Britney Spears. I keep seeing these idiots say Beyonce is a "once in a generation talent". What is this based on? She's clearly not a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears and she's clearly not a more talented dancer than Britney Spears. (In terms of dancing, while they are two different types of dancers they'd probably be in the same echelon behind Janet Jackson, Paula Abdul and Jlo.) Technically, Beyonce tries to sing and dance, but her dancing is inarguably vastly inferior to Janet Jackson in terms of skill.

3.As for Adele, her music may be overrated, but her sales are breathtaking and must be acknowledged. She's on track on being one of the five biggest album sellers with Whitney Houston and Barbara Streisand. Houston is a great artist due to her great singing ability but also her massive influence on successful female artists like Dion, Carey, Brandy, Spears, Aguilera, Beyonce, P!nk, Keys etc; artists who inspired to sing and/or enter the industry simply because of listening to Houston sing. Beyonce obviously will not have this type of impact.

[Edited 12/18/16 19:06pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:07pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:08pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:09pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:11pm]

Sweets dont even bother going back in forth with that poster, you are wasting your time. I dont want the bad apples to scare you away. I don't take any one seriously who ranks Beyonce music higher than Adeles . If that is one preference, that fine but to try to make a logical argument that she is more artistic than someone who writes their own music, plays instruments and more experimental is all bullshit. Notice the posters who insist sales don't matter JUST because Beyonce has poor sales (in order to justify her poor sales) but lets say if this was about Prince or so one else they are quick to note that they were not big sellers. I am tired of the excuses for Beyonce

mjscarousal said:

mnbvc said:

1.I don't think sales matter at all with music pioneers or groundbreaking artists or previous generations in general. My absolute favorite artist, Marvin Gaye is not one of the best selling-artists of all time but nobody cares whatsoever because he's one of the 20 greatest artists. Sales aren't the standard for these people (Gaye, Prince, Sly Funkadelic etc.)

2.I think sales should absoultely factor in for evaluating contemporary artists since neither Beyonce, Britney Spears, Rihanna, or Adele are groundbreaking or pioneering. Like I said Beyonce is a more talented vocalist than Britney Spears but other than that, she's blatantly not a more talented artist than Britney Spears. I keep seeing these idiots say Beyonce is a "once in a generation talent". What is this based on? She's clearly not a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears and she's clearly not a more talented dancer than Britney Spears. (In terms of dancing, while they are two different types of dancers they'd probably be in the same echelon behind Janet Jackson, Paula Abdul and Jlo.) Technically, Beyonce tries to sing and dance, but her dancing is inarguably vastly inferior to Janet Jackson in terms of skill.

3.As for Adele, her music may be overrated, but her sales are breathtaking and must be acknowledged. She's on track on being one of the five biggest album sellers with Whitney Houston and Barbara Streisand. Houston is a great artist due to her great singing ability but also her massive influence on successful female artists like Dion, Carey, Brandy, Spears, Aguilera, Beyonce, P!nk, Keys etc; artists who inspired to sing and/or enter the industry simply because of listening to Houston sing. Beyonce obviously will not have this type of impact.

[Edited 12/18/16 19:06pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:07pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:08pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:09pm]

[Edited 12/18/16 19:11pm]

Sweets dont even bother going back in forth with that poster, you are wasting your time. I dont want the bad apples to scare you away. I don't take any one seriously who ranks Beyonce music higher than Adeles . If that is one preference, that fine but to try to make a logical argument that she is more artistic than someone who writes their own music, plays instruments and more experimental is all bullshit. Notice the posters who insist sales don't matter JUST because Beyonce has poor sales (in order to justify her poor sales) but lets say if this was about Prince or so one else they are quick to note that they were not big sellers. I am tired of the excuses for Beyonce

You're an obsessive hater.

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

mjscarousal said:

I remember when you said this and I completely agree! However, how can one be an Icon without any true Iconic moments? I don't consider Beyonce an "Icon" and most people I talk too don't either. I think lastdecember is spot on with his sentiments with Beyonce being more so a "media brand" than anything else. The bolded of your post is excellent, AMAZING and spot on!

This is why my theory has always been that there is an industry agenda going on to push Beyonce as the greatest artist of all time because as you stated yourself, her media saturation is always sychronized with the releases of the Grammys, award shows etc. I DO think a lot of these publications are direct press releases from her camp. HOWEVER, I also believe a lot of the media and industry ass kissing is purposeful as well. What do you think of this theory? Or what are you thoughts on why she is being so heavily pushed? I really appreciate this insightful post!

It's hard to say what the media end game is with Beyonce. Part of me thinks she is pushed so hard because she is almost the "last girl standing".

Reason#1

If you rewind to the late 90's, eary 2000's, you had Ashante, Amerie, Aliyah (sp?), Tweet, Ciara and numerous others on the Pop/R&B front. In an almost Darwinian way, she was the "strongest" of the era (as it relates to the Pop/R&B sound) among the female singers and was able to leave a successful group and become a successful singer. The other singers did not have the push (Papa Knowles) she had and I believe she was savvy enough to know when to break from the group sound.

Good songs, a modicum of stage presence (borrowed heavily from Tina Turner), videos, collaborators (Neyo) and attractiveness greatly aided her. Additionally (and not to sound too cynical), but even her marriage to Jay Z is one that gave her additional street cred while allowing her to still have her toe in the pop music world, creating a perfect storm of mainstream acceptance. She can still get R&B airplay, but can still get played on Top 40 stations.

Reason #2

I also think that since she had crossed paths with real icons (Prince and MJ, who both held her in some kind of esteem), it was the media's way of co signing that since MJ and Prince like her (and are cultural/musical icons), then Beyonce (by osmosis) is an "icon". If she was just accepted by someone with less iconic status, she would be a middle of the pack entertainer (in terms of mainstream acceptance).

Reason #3

As I stated before, the end game is kind of vague at this point. Even the whole Super Bowl, Lemonade controversies (Formation, "Becky with the Good Hair") all seemed forced and not authentic. Her fans seem to eat up the illusion of her as a deep, artistic person with the new album, but my personal opinion is that she rides whatever the culture is experiencing at the moment.

As I said before, the "icon"(tongue planted firmly in cheek), fits this era, but in the sense of icons of years past, she is lacking that something.

Great post!

Reason 1)

I agree with this entire post but want to add a few things. Aaliyah (although was not innovative or groundbreaking) was more likable and produce classics compared to Beyonce. Aaliyah has a precence that is still very much felt with her fan base and people. Its not a huge impact but she is still missed and she left behind a wealth of classics and her self titled album is a classic album. I honestly feel she was on her way to become a big international star at the time of her unfornate death and I think would have made things interesting in terms of competition if she had lived. Also, DC was always designed to push Beyonce's solo career. Back in the groups girl tyme days, Matthew was pushing for Beyonce to go solo, he wanted her to audition as a solo outside of the DC group but executives did not think she was talented enough to compete with (Brandy, Monica, Usher, Britney etc) so they recommended that she stay in the group and then go solo. This is why I say she was never that talented to begin and was always mediocre.I have always said this, her marriage and association with Jay Z had a large part to do with her success early on and even more so now than ever. IMO, her songs weren't all of that even back in the day, stand our track is Crazy in Love and Me Myself and I. I can't even remember the other songs.

Reason 2)

Thats a good point.

Reason 3)

Agree, everything about her brand is contrived and manufactured. For one thing, what she lacks is all the things you mentioned in your previous post, most of the true icons were exceptionally talented in some area, made iconic moments, music, performances, contributions to industry, did groundbreaking things, etc. Beyonce seems to be the media's icon and not so much public. She also lacks persoablitiy and connection with audiences. She just doesn't reach a wide range of people or have the unique talent and natural star power as her predecessors. The media is making her into a star, she is not one off her own abilities. She was created by the industry and media unlike someone like MJ who was born with his abilities and was able to captivate and touch people around the world without the help of a machine. It was natural and geniune. Everything about Beyonce as well as her success if fake and manufactured.

mnbvc said:

Hudson said:

Yes, the media is lying about her achievements, but after 1993 none of the legends you mentioned ever had a huge album that went over 4x platinum. Dangerously in Love went 5x and Rihanna certainly hasn't sold more albums. Her most successful was 3x. Britney's 2 albums were released 17 months apart at the height of the teen pop era before Napster when she was basically the female Nsync. She fell hard and fast after that. Whitney is the only black woman in history to have a true diamond album (10 million sold, not just shipped).

The other thing I would say about Spears' album sales is that she clearly had much better competion than Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Rihanna and still dominated that era in sales. So you can't really undervalue her commercial success at that time.

I also wouldn't say she fell of too hard after that either because Spears' third higest selling album, Britney, has sold roughly as much as Beyonce's highest selling album, Dangerously in Love, with global sales at around 10 million each according to the most conservative estimates.

As has been pointed out, Usher, who most probably would never think was ever as big as Beyonce, has a diamond certified album, unlike Beyonce.

[Edited 12/18/16 11:43am]

[Edited 12/18/16 11:45am]

Britney's last successful era was Femme Fatale, the two biggest radio hits of her career and under a million copies sold. Beyonce has gone platinum three times in a row without a radio hit. Even queen of the 90s and number ones Mariah couldn't do that without a #1 radio hit. In The Zone should be compared instead to Dangerously in Love, they are both from the same era and a different climate than the TRL era which Britney thrived in.

The three biggest R&B acts of last decade released albums in 2016, here are the first week sales.

Lemonade 485,000

Here (Alicia Keys) 42,000

Hard II Love (Usher) 28,000

214 said:

You're an obsessive hater.

Yup. I haven't seen anything like it for quite sometime. It's quite odd how she wants someone to explain to her why Beyonce is so popular and whatnot then comes for their necks when they do. Beyonce is popular and its okay.

The thought that album sales, in 2016, are the barometer for popularity is hilarious. How about a sold out stadium tour? Let me guess, you saw a picture of a half filled stadium and thats further proof of a vast conspiracy to make Beyonce seem more popular than she actually is. Equally hilarious is the supposition that 2016 Britney Spears is anything but a brain addled performer waiting on someone to tell her what to do next. Also I don't know how I'm supposed to seriously consider BS some great talent because she dances ok, came up with a video idea once, supposedly wrote some songs, tinkled an ivory or two; all the while warbling off key when she dares to sing live.

We're supposed to believe Britney Spears' writing credits are more legitimate than Beyonce's for what reason? We're supposed to believe Britney Spears' piano playing is better than Beyonce's for what reason? We're supposed to beileve that everyone who has ever attested to Beyonce's musical ability is in on the fix for what reason? We're supposed to disregard when Beyonce says she sees visuals which she communicates to her directors for what reason? Even when those directors have gone on record about what Beyonce brings to the table. You believe Beyonce is lipping most of her live performances like there aren't dozens of videos on youtube that prove otherwise. Where are the Britney Spears mic feed videos?

But I digress, I notice we only want to compare stars to eachother in their primes. Lets ignore the fact that almost everyone we want to compare Beyonce to, their prime was in the early 2000s or prior. Guess what people did back then... they bought albums. What are they doing today? Streaming. Where can you stream Beyonce's newest music? Tidal. Be prepared to pay for it. Who else has exclusive streaming at Tidal?

You don't like Beyonce, and you have every right not to. But to deny that you have some type of agenda on these boards is ludicrous. I'm sure there is a word for someone who hates someone but spends a large amount of time posting about them on the internet, but I can't seem to think what it is.

Lets apply Occam's Razor to this situation (Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.): It takes fewer assumptions to believe that a poster is loco than it does to believe there is a vast conspiracy to make you believe Beyonce is anything short of iconic.

But it was not a sold out stadium tour, it wasn't even a true stadium tour...your new here but we have clocked that on this site too. Not an obsessed hater just exposing the media and industry agenda to make Beyonce more than what she is and I am perfectly entitled to do that! People kiss this woman's ass and obsessively talk about how perfect she is (like she is a God) and as soon as someone criticizes Beyonce, something is wrong with that person? Please save me the bullshit. There is obviously a serious agenda going on when it comes to Beyonce and Intelligent folks and criticial thinkers who dare to call this propaganda out will. If you want to stan for Beyonce and talk about how she is god's greatest gift to the world, go to HER fan forum, not here, problem solved. Your not even a Prince fan or want to talk about other singers so why are you even here? Your just a Beyonce fan troll dictating to what can and can not be said about her here.

[Edited 12/19/16 4:34am]

Hudson said:

mnbvc said:

The other thing I would say about Spears' album sales is that she clearly had much better competion than Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Rihanna and still dominated that era in sales. So you can't really undervalue her commercial success at that time.

I also wouldn't say she fell of too hard after that either because Spears' third higest selling album, Britney, has sold roughly as much as Beyonce's highest selling album, Dangerously in Love, with global sales at around 10 million each according to the most conservative estimates.

As has been pointed out, Usher, who most probably would never think was ever as big as Beyonce, has a diamond certified album, unlike Beyonce.

[Edited 12/18/16 11:43am]

[Edited 12/18/16 11:45am]

Britney's last successful era was Femme Fatale, the two biggest radio hits of her career and under a million copies sold. Beyonce has gone platinum three times in a row without a radio hit. Even queen of the 90s and number ones Mariah couldn't do that without a #1 radio hit. In The Zone should be compared instead to Dangerously in Love, they are both from the same era and a different climate than the TRL era which Britney thrived in.

The three biggest R&B acts of last decade released albums in 2016, here are the first week sales.

Lemonade 485,000

Here (Alicia Keys) 42,000

Hard II Love (Usher) 28,000

But why do we have to make an accomodation for Beyonce because she's a mediocre album seller? Why should I only compare Britney Spears' fourth album with Beyonce's debut album? 50 Cent debuted in 2003 and his debut album sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce. Norah Jones debuted in 2003 and sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce; Norah Jones has still sold more albums in the United States than Beyonce. (After four years of not making music, Spears still had a platinum album who's sole promotion was a widely-condemned VMA performance)

If Beyonce was a phenomenon like Adele, who even though had far less competition than Spears has sales that are more impressive than Spears nonetheless, then we wouldn't need to cherry pick. Taylor Swift, who debuted much later than Beyonce and crushes Beyonce in album sales, has radio hits and is still obliterated by Adele. Beyonce would still sell less than Taylor Swift with radio hits.

I mean, based on what you've written, are you trying to argue that Beyonce is one of the biggest selling female album artists of all time or one of the most impressive album sellers of all time?

(And Britney Spears made TRL popular in the first place not just simply thrived in.)

mu5icl0v3r said:

214 said:

You're an obsessive hater.

Yup. I haven't seen anything like it for quite sometime. It's quite odd how she wants someone to explain to her why Beyonce is so popular and whatnot then comes for their necks when they do. Beyonce is popular and its okay.

The thought that album sales, in 2016, are the barometer for popularity is hilarious. How about a sold out stadium tour? Let me guess, you saw a picture of a half filled stadium and thats further proof of a vast conspiracy to make Beyonce seem more popular than she actually is. Equally hilarious is the supposition that 2016 Britney Spears is anything but a brain addled performer waiting on someone to tell her what to do next. Also I don't know how I'm supposed to seriously consider BS some great talent because she dances ok, came up with a video idea once, supposedly wrote some songs, tinkled an ivory or two; all the while warbling off key when she dares to sing live.

We're supposed to believe Britney Spears' writing credits are more legitimate than Beyonce's for what reason? We're supposed to believe Britney Spears' piano playing is better than Beyonce's for what reason? We're supposed to beileve that everyone who has ever attested to Beyonce's musical ability is in on the fix for what reason? We're supposed to disregard when Beyonce says she sees visuals which she communicates to her directors for what reason? Even when those directors have gone on record about what Beyonce brings to the table. You believe Beyonce is lipping most of her live performances like there aren't dozens of videos on youtube that prove otherwise. Where are the Britney Spears mic feed videos?

But I digress, I notice we only want to compare stars to eachother in their primes. Lets ignore the fact that almost everyone we want to compare Beyonce to, their prime was in the early 2000s or prior. Guess what people did back then... they bought albums. What are they doing today? Streaming. Where can you stream Beyonce's newest music? Tidal. Be prepared to pay for it. Who else has exclusive streaming at Tidal?

You don't like Beyonce, and you have every right not to. But to deny that you have some type of agenda on these boards is ludicrous. I'm sure there is a word for someone who hates someone but spends a large amount of time posting about them on the internet, but I can't seem to think what it is.

Lets apply Occam's Razor to this situation (Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.): It takes fewer assumptions to believe that a poster is loco than it does to believe there is a vast conspiracy to make you believe Beyonce is anything short of iconic.

I think it's also fair to adjust tour revenues based on inflation. Maybe she still comes out on top.

There is still an agenda also against Britney Spears. Beyonce is a much better vocalist than Britney Spears. That's fine. Yet, it is an imposibility to say she's a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears. What is this based on? Where is the evidence that Beyonce has written any of her music? Why in the hell should I believe Beyonce is a better songwriter than Britney Spears? Based on what? What gives Beyonce the benefit of the doubt? Spears has tons of writing credits on her unreleased music but should be considered untalented? Most of the producers that have worked with Spears say she's not a puppet either. Britney Spears' most iconic music videos were her idea according to the music video directors themselves and she shouldn't get any credit for that?

The simple question is how is Beyonce a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears? If people would consider them both talented then I would have no problem. But if Spears is going to be constantly derided for being untalented, which is based on nothing (other than her mostly mediocre 2016 performing; but she hardly got any praise for her written released/unreleased music when she was more popular), then it's fair to bring up these details. In fact, sticking with artists from the same generation, how is Christina Aguilera a more talented songwriter than Britney Spears?

[Edited 12/19/16 5:02am]

[Edited 12/19/16 5:06am]

[Edited 12/19/16 5:09am]

[Edited 12/19/16 5:16am]

mnbvc said:

Hudson said:

Britney's last successful era was Femme Fatale, the two biggest radio hits of her career and under a million copies sold. Beyonce has gone platinum three times in a row without a radio hit. Even queen of the 90s and number ones Mariah couldn't do that without a #1 radio hit. In The Zone should be compared instead to Dangerously in Love, they are both from the same era and a different climate than the TRL era which Britney thrived in.

The three biggest R&B acts of last decade released albums in 2016, here are the first week sales.

Lemonade 485,000

Here (Alicia Keys) 42,000

Hard II Love (Usher) 28,000

But why do we have to make an accomodation for Beyonce because she's a mediocre album seller? Why should I only compare Britney Spears' fourth album with Beyonce's debut album? 50 Cent debuted in 2003 and his debut album sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce. Norah Jones debuted in 2003 and sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce; Norah Jones has still sold more albums in the United States than Beyonce. (After four years of not making music, Spears still had a platinum album who's sole promotion was a widely-condemned VMA performance)

If Beyonce was a phenomenon like Adele, who even though had far less competition than Spears has sales that are more impressive than Spears nonetheless, then we wouldn't need to cherry pick. Taylor Swift, who debuted much later than Beyonce and crushes Beyonce in album sales, has radio hits and is still obliterated by Adele. Beyonce would still sell less than Taylor Swift with radio hits.

I mean, based on what you've written, are you trying to argue that Beyonce is one of the biggest selling female album artists of all time or one of the most impressive album sellers of all time?

(And Britney Spears made TRL popular in the first place not just simply thrived in.)

I'm not trying to make her into the biggest star in the world. I'm just saying it's impressive how she's done this decade while her peers from last decade have faltered. With the Adele vs Taylor comparison, I'd honestly say Taylor's success is more impressive because Adele plays it as safe as possible with her image and songs while Taylor seems to make an effort to be hated by the public.

Hudson said:

Switching from country to pop and risking alienating your entire fanbase is definitely not playing it safe. Being unprovocative (which Adele excels at) is playing it safe.

Hudson said:

There was no guarantee she would gain new fans. It paid off splendidly but I don't think it was playing it safe.

mjscarousal said:

Hudson said:

mnbvc said:

But why do we have to make an accomodation for Beyonce because she's a mediocre album seller? Why should I only compare Britney Spears' fourth album with Beyonce's debut album? 50 Cent debuted in 2003 and his debut album sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce. Norah Jones debuted in 2003 and sold more than Britney Spears and Beyonce; Norah Jones has still sold more albums in the United States than Beyonce. (After four years of not making music, Spears still had a platinum album who's sole promotion was a widely-condemned VMA performance)

If Beyonce was a phenomenon like Adele, who even though had far less competition than Spears has sales that are more impressive than Spears nonetheless, then we wouldn't need to cherry pick. Taylor Swift, who debuted much later than Beyonce and crushes Beyonce in album sales, has radio hits and is still obliterated by Adele. Beyonce would still sell less than Taylor Swift with radio hits.

I mean, based on what you've written, are you trying to argue that Beyonce is one of the biggest selling female album artists of all time or one of the most impressive album sellers of all time?

(And Britney Spears made TRL popular in the first place not just simply thrived in.)

I'm not trying to make her into the biggest star in the world. I'm just saying it's impressive how she's done this decade while her peers from last decade have faltered. With the Adele vs Taylor comparison, I'd honestly say Taylor's success is more impressive because Adele plays it as safe as possible with her image and songs while Taylor seems to make an effort to be hated by the public.

Yes you are. I thought you were trolling at first but now I see you are serious and your posts are beginning to be cringeworthy. You threw Michael Jackson, MICHAEL JACKSON under the bus and made a bullshit false argument by arguing that him and other legends didn't sell much after 1993 which is FALSEHell, HIStory and Invincible combined have sold more than Beyonce's entire disography and that doesn't even include Off The Wall, Thriller, BAD and Dangerous You ought to be a shamed of yourself, seriously.

MotownSubdivision said:

Taylor had a strong pop following years before she released 1989 and always made pop music. It's just that prior to 2014 (and arguably 2012), it was country flavored. It's not like Taylor was an underground pure country act who got her big break and suddenly made pop music, she had an established mainstream audience and while there was no guarantee she would gain new fans, there was even less a guarantee that she wouldn't have. If she didn't garner a larger fanbase, it wouldn't have mattered much if at all because she was already a popular, high-charting Top 40 act. [Edited 12/19/16 8:00am]

I agree with this 100% Taylor has always been POP.

laurarichardson said:

mjscarousal said:

Who gives a fuq what Quincy Jones says? So just because Quincy say this, that makes it true?! Quincy also was the one that lied on Michael and said he wasn't all of that and turned his back on him. I could care less what fake Quincy has to say about anything

-/ Exactly, Q has gone senile. His comments about MJ, Ray Charles, and Prince are just stupid. This nonsense with Beyonce is more proof he needs to sit down. A no she has not sold 200 million CDs. I am also sure that Adele will surpass her in sales and influence. Not to mention she can reall sing and write. Is Beyonce able to understand " Chasing Pavements" is she literate enough.

I respect Quincy as a legend but I don't like him as a person. He has trashed, disrespected and betrayed Michael more times than I can count. What did he say about Ray Charles and Prince? I can only imagine Quincy always tries to take credit for EVERYTHING and things that he didn't artistically do! I get that he is a legend but he is so full of himself when he talks about the past artists he worked with. I think Quincy has definitly gone senile, he is suing the MJ Estate for elder abuse!!

MotownSubdivision said:

Hudson said:

I'm not trying to make her into the biggest star in the world. I'm just saying it's impressive how she's done this decade while her peers from last decade have faltered. With the Adele vs Taylor comparison, I'd honestly say Taylor's success is more impressive because Adele plays it as safe as possible with her image and songs while Taylor seems to make an effort to be hated by the public.

Considering how much more Adele sells than Taylor, no Taylor's sales are not more impressive especially when you take into account that Taylor was selling well before becoming a more scrutinized figure. Also, Taylor doesn't play it safe? 1989 is the very definition of safe.

I honestly don't get the hate for Adele I really don't. She is a talented singer, she keeps her clothes on, she writes her own music, plays instruments, she knows when to go away and take a break from the spotlight, she doesn't do anything for attention, she makes descent music and she stays in her lane and goes home But then you have someone like Beyonce, who is an arrogant asshole and who does shady things for attention and who is overrated but people still defend her, I will never understand

[Edited 12/19/16 17:00pm]

mjscarousal said:

mjscarousal said:

But it was not a sold out stadium tour, it wasn't even a true stadium tour...

You're a big fan of receipts if i recall.

Seats available/Seats sold:

That Beyonce, so unpopular.

But where are your reciepts? You keeps saying the same inane twitter conspiracy mess over and over again, but I'm not seeing any links? Screenshots? Tumblr posts? Blog thinkpieces? Anything?

mjscarousal said:

There is obviously a serious agenda going on when it comes to Beyonce and Intelligent folks and critical thinkers who dare to call this propaganda out will.

Calling out imagined unsubstantiated propaganda makes you a critical thinker? Lol. Ok sis.

mjscarousal said:

Your (I bet you meant you're) just a Beyonce fan troll dictating to what can and can not be said about her here.

mjscarousal said:

If you want to stan for Beyonce and talk about how she is god's greatest gift to the world, go to HER fan forum, not here, problem solved.

Look who's dictating now. Its ok for you to shit up the boards every time Beyonce's name is typed in a post. But its not ok to praise her? I know condradictions make stuff interesting but jeez.

mjscarousal said:

Your (I bet you meant you're here too) not even a Prince fan or want to talk about other singers so why are you even here?

If my math is correct, thats 472 albums.

Why I'm here; entertainment. I like Prince. I like reading about Prince. I usually lurk because Prince fans here usually have a level of fandom I find... excessive. Why I'm posting at you is because I think you're... different and amuses me to do so. Why I don't talk about any other singers, is because I don't have to.

laurarichardson said:

mjscarousal said:

I respect Quincy as a legend but I don't like him as a person. He has trashed, disrespected and betrayed Michael more times than I can count. What did he say about Ray Charles and Prince? I can only imagine Quincy always tries to take credit for EVERYTHING and things that he didn't artistically do! I get that he is a legend but he is so full of himself when he talks about the past artists he worked with. I think Quincy has definitly gone senile, he is suing the MJ Estate for elder abuse!!

There was a clip on YouTube were he was saying that they all were dead and stupid for using drugs. He knows how jacked up Mike's life was, he knows nothing about Prince's stituation and Ray died from liver failure. He is embarrassing and I hope his children out in a home soon. [Edited 12/19/16 17:45pm]

Prince was given the wrong dosage for a presciption so how was he stupid?? Michael died due to a negligent doctor who did not administer propofol properly (and the doctor should not have been using propofol to treat insomnia in the first place), Although Ray was a heroin addict at one point in his life, his death had nothing to do with drugs. YEP, Quincy is a fool and senile, they need to stop interviewing him. He is an embarrassment.

mu5icl0v3r said:

mjscarousal said:

But it was not a sold out stadium tour, it wasn't even a true stadium tour...

You're a big fan of receipts if i recall.

Seats available/Seats sold:

That Beyonce, so unpopular.

But where are your reciepts? You keeps saying the same inane twitter conspiracy mess over and over again, but I'm not seeing any links? Screenshots? Tumblr posts? Blog thinkpieces? Anything?

Look who's dictating now. Its ok for you to shit up the boards every time Beyonce's name is typed in a post. But its not ok to praise her? I know condradictions make stuff interesting but jeez.

mjscarousal said:

Your (I bet you meant you're here too) not even a Prince fan or want to talk about other singers so why are you even here?

If my math is correct, thats 472 albums.

Why I'm here; entertainment. I like Prince. I like reading about Prince. I usually lurk because Prince fans here usually have a level of fandom I find... excessive. Why I'm posting at you is because I think you're... different and amuses me to do so. Why I don't talk about any other singers, is because I don't have to.

That says what the tour grossed, her tickets are 100 and up so of course she can gross that much. However that doesn't present the percentage of sold out shows for each of her shows. I saw the break down and she was only seeing 40,000 capacity and she wasn't even selling out that for most of those shows. Just because a concert is held at a stadium doesn't mean its a true stadium tour. 40,000 and less is still roughly an arena size show. A stadium show (a sold out one) is about 80,000 or more people nightly. Her Wembley shows were still up for sale until the day of, she was so desperate that she was giving away tickets because the show did not sale out and I know a friend who went to that concert where her back up dancer was proposed too and he told me there was a bunch of empty sections (and it was so empty in the front that he was able to move up as well as other fans) and I have heard this and SEEN this on social media with PHOTOS for myself. There was a thread here where I posted twitter and instagram shots of half empty sections at her shows that fans posted on social media. Also, there were multiple shows that wre still up for sale on her site up until the day of the show.

AND you are a troll. You don't talk about Prince and you don't talk about any other artist. All you do is police and bash others who criticize Beyonce.

[Edited 12/19/16 18:32pm]