LittleBLUECorvette said:

Pokeno4Money said:

No, you're still not getting it. Prince was a rock star when his music was considered rock, just like those whose songs were considered rock n' roll back in the 50's. Many of the older "rock" songs would be classified today as "pop" or other genres, but that doesn't matter.

What I disagree with is the induction of artists whose songs were NOT considered "rock" at the time they were released. I mean I love Donna Summer, but she was never a "rock" musician. Her music was never considered "rock" music, her songs never appeared on "rock" charts. Neither was Hall & Oates nor Madonna. Again, their songs never appeared on "rock" charts. R&B charts and Dance charts, yes. For all those artists to get inducted before a legendary ROCK band like Deep Purple is absurd.

I disagree with this whole statement. If that's the case just kick out all of the soul and R&B and pop artist. It's obvious that "Rock & Roll" means much more than a white guy playing guitar. As evidence by the first year inductee Sam Cooke, or a second year inductees like Aretha Franklin, Clyde McPhatter or BLUES singer BB King. Nothin' Rock about BB. It should have been clear in the mid-80s that this is not just a place for artist similar to the Doors or Pink Floyd. Artist that are considered "Rock."

I have no idea why you're bringing up "white guys with guitars". Three of the greatest guitarists of all time are Hendrix, Prince and Santana ... none are white. Let's please not make this into a racial thing.

And rock and roll isn't just about guitar, for instance much of the earliest rock and roll music involved piano. As for BB King, he was very much responsible for the creation of Blues Rock in the early 1960's. No different than Prince's contributions to the Funk Rock genre.

Keep in mind, those in the first few classes of the Rock Hall of Fame were inducted in the mid-1980's. Since there's a requirement that 25 years must pass after an artist's first official release before they are eligible for the Hall, that means the earliest inductees must have been recording prior to 1961. Rock was very different back then, it was more about influencing the popularity of rock music.

Pokeno4Money said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I disagree with this whole statement. If that's the case just kick out all of the soul and R&B and pop artist. It's obvious that "Rock & Roll" means much more than a white guy playing guitar. As evidence by the first year inductee Sam Cooke, or a second year inductees like Aretha Franklin, Clyde McPhatter or BLUES singer BB King. Nothin' Rock about BB. It should have been clear in the mid-80s that this is not just a place for artist similar to the Doors or Pink Floyd. Artist that are considered "Rock."

I have no idea why you're bringing up "white guys with guitars". Three of the greatest guitarists of all time are Hendrix, Prince and Santana ... none are white. Let's please not make this into a racial thing.

And rock and roll isn't just about guitar, for instance much of the earliest rock and roll music involved piano. As for BB King, he was very much responsible for the creation of Blues Rock in the early 1960's. No different than Prince's contributions to the Funk Rock genre.

Keep in mind, those in the first few classes of the Rock Hall of Fame were inducted in the mid-1980's. Since there's a requirement that 25 years must pass after an artist's first official release before they are eligible for the Hall, that means the earliest inductees must have been recording prior to 1961. Rock was very different back then, it was more about influencing the popularity of rock music.

Let's be real, most people in today’s world look at "Rock" as white guys playing guitar. That's why I made that statement. There was no rock pre-1961, there was however "Rock & Roll."

Also, are you saying there should be a certain cut-off period where other genre's not "Rock" shouldn't even be looked at? You mentioned Hall & Oates, Madonna and Donna Summers never appearing on a "Rock" chart. What does that even mean? Rock & Roll birthed Rock music, they are totally different. Rock & Roll also birthed Soul music, also very different. Maybe in the early 60's Rock & Roll and soul music were a lot closer than they were by the mid 70s. But you can say the same about Rock & Roll and Rock music by the mid 70s compared to the late 50s.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Pokeno4Money said:

I have no idea why you're bringing up "white guys with guitars". Three of the greatest guitarists of all time are Hendrix, Prince and Santana ... none are white. Let's please not make this into a racial thing.

And rock and roll isn't just about guitar, for instance much of the earliest rock and roll music involved piano. As for BB King, he was very much responsible for the creation of Blues Rock in the early 1960's. No different than Prince's contributions to the Funk Rock genre.

Keep in mind, those in the first few classes of the Rock Hall of Fame were inducted in the mid-1980's. Since there's a requirement that 25 years must pass after an artist's first official release before they are eligible for the Hall, that means the earliest inductees must have been recording prior to 1961. Rock was very different back then, it was more about influencing the popularity of rock music.

Let's be real, most people in today’s world look at "Rock" as white guys playing guitar. That's why I made that statement. There was no rock pre-1961, there was however "Rock & Roll."

Also, are you saying there should be a certain cut-off period where other genre's not "Rock" shouldn't even be looked at? You mentioned Hall & Oates, Madonna and Donna Summers never appearing on a "Rock" chart. What does that even mean? Rock & Roll birthed Rock music, they are totally different. Rock & Roll also birthed Soul music, also very different. Maybe in the early 60's Rock & Roll and soul music were a lot closer than they were by the mid 70s. But you can say the same about Rock & Roll and Rock music by the mid 70s compared to the late 50s.

Sure today's rock musicians are mostly white, but race still has nothing to do with the subject. Slash is a black guitarist rock star, but not many people view him by his race. I grew up one town over from Doug Wimbish, he's yet another guy who goes against your stereotype. Moving on ...

Yes, when you have pop music performers like Hall & Oates who began recording in the 1970's I don't think it makes sense to call them Rock Hall of Famers. It's just the Rock Hall trying to increase interest and revenue by diversifying their inductees to include non-rock musicians.

Not appearing on any "Rock" charts is further proof that they are not rock musicians. Their music wasn't rock, therefore their songs weren't eligible for the Rock charts. At least Janet had SOME rock songs, such as Black Cat. I can't recall any of the aforementioned artists having any rock songs.

Ummm ... you have it backwards on Soul Music. It's origins are African American gospel, R&B and Jazz. Soul helped birth Rock.

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said:

Pokeno4Money said:

there isnt...

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said:

////You can only name two! Kind of makes my point.

Not really since I provided you 2 mainstream rappers who don't fit the description of "cooning and corporate ass kissing" whereas you and mj said they all fit that description. Like I said, you're listening to the wrong rappers.

2 out of hundreds is not a good ratio and for the record J Cole sucks ass.

You know as well as I do that radio play generates sales because people still hear music mainly from the radio.

It you cannot get your music on the radio the record company is going to drop your ass. If you think Kendrick Lamarr is going to continue to perform consious rap and get a lot of radio play you are smoking crack.

Oh and the best Hip-Hop CD last year was a Tribe Called Quest. Guys pushing 50 can do better than any of these empty headed and cooning young people.

laurarichardson said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Pokeno4Money said:

Sure today's rock musicians are mostly white, but race still has nothing to do with the subject. Slash is a black guitarist rock star, but not many people view him by his race. I grew up one town over from Doug Wimbish, he's yet another guy who goes against your stereotype. Moving on ...

Yes, when you have pop music performers like Hall & Oates who began recording in the 1970's I don't think it makes sense to call them Rock Hall of Famers. It's just the Rock Hall trying to increase interest and revenue by diversifying their inductees to include non-rock musicians.

Not appearing on any "Rock" charts is further proof that they are not rock musicians. Their music wasn't rock, therefore their songs weren't eligible for the Rock charts. At least Janet had SOME rock songs, such as Black Cat. I can't recall any of the aforementioned artists having any rock songs.

Ummm ... you have it backwards on Soul Music. It's origins are African American gospel, R&B and Jazz. Soul helped birth Rock.

This isn't my stereotype, it's what the masses think. And from the early inductions, they were making it clear to include not just "Rock" artist but basically popular artist since the birth of "Rock & Roll" which is where the name comes from. If they early R&B and Soul performers weren't included sense the early days, then I can see. They were included as performers not the early influence category. Soul comes from Rock & Roll. Are you saying Rock & Roll didn't help birth Soul music? Soul music came after Rock & Roll. I'm not speaking of Rock music which took off later on in the 60s.

I think you already acknowledged R&B and Jazz came before rock.

Exhibit A: Solomon Burke

"Drawing from his roots in gospel, soul, blues and country music, Burke quickly developed his own style at a time when both R&B and rock were in their infancy"

http://www.bluesandsoul.com/feature/567/solomon_burke_the_last_soul_man/

And on a side note .... the dude had 21 children and 90 grandchildren!

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said:

2 out of hundreds is not a good ratio and for the record J Cole sucks ass.

You know as well as I do that radio play generates sales because people still hear music mainly from the radio.

It you cannot get your music on the radio the record company is going to drop your ass. If you think Kendrick Lamarr is going to continue to perform consious rap and get a lot of radio play you are smoking crack.

Oh and the best Hip-Hop CD last year was a Tribe Called Quest. Guys pushing 50 can do better than any of these empty headed and cooning young people.

*SIGH* I never said that mainstream rap today was a mecca of MCs, I merely pointed out the fact that not every single mainstream rapper isn't some ignorant, cooning corporate ass-kisser as you said. Whether I named 2 artists or 20, 1 was all that was needed to prove that generalization wrong. It ain't much but for the sake of this debate it's more than enough. Whether or not you like Cole is irrelevant. The bottom line is he doesn't fit the bill of the average present day mainstream rapper. While I'm at it though I may as well ask why you think he sucks. As for Kendrick, you're speaking out of speculation. Up to this point he has been a socially conscious MC and you can't confirm that will change. He's innocent until proven guilty, basically. Lastly, based on your talk about what rappers having to do in order to get radio play (your argument for why Kendrick won't continue to make the music he has been making till now), why are you even bothering to expect a quality mainstream rap scene (which I might add doesn't require every rapper to be spitting about the conscious stuff Cole and Kendrick do)? I understand how you feel about the state of mainstream rap but with the way you express your outlook, it sounds like you're holding your breath for something that you're sure isn't going to happen. Do you listen to any non-mainstream rappers because it doesn't sound like you do.

Do you even think about what you are going type before you type it? You named two people that were not ignorant this is a good thing to you? Do you see that as a positive for Hip-Hop? My generalization is not wrong because you can only name two who I can guarantee you will pressured into becoming ignorant and cooning because that is what the music industry likes. Did you ever hear of a rapper called Lupe Fiasco? He did not last long because he was told to dumb his lyrics down and Lupe Fiasco does not have a recording contract anymore because he did not want to do dumb ignorant music. These two are not going to be around for long for the same reason. See you are giving two examples without realizing why we only have two in the first place.

I am not holding my breath for anything I know what is going to happen. It started happening the minute major labels started buying up the small rap labels in the late 80s and early 90s. History does not repeat itself people just keep doing the same stuff over and over again without learning. I am old enough to have seen all this already.

I learn something everyday i always thought a rock star played some rock music at least.

laurarichardson said:

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said: *SIGH* I never said that mainstream rap today was a mecca of MCs, I merely pointed out the fact that not every single mainstream rapper isn't some ignorant, cooning corporate ass-kisser as you said. Whether I named 2 artists or 20, 1 was all that was needed to prove that generalization wrong. It ain't much but for the sake of this debate it's more than enough. Whether or not you like Cole is irrelevant. The bottom line is he doesn't fit the bill of the average present day mainstream rapper. While I'm at it though I may as well ask why you think he sucks. As for Kendrick, you're speaking out of speculation. Up to this point he has been a socially conscious MC and you can't confirm that will change. He's innocent until proven guilty, basically. Lastly, based on your talk about what rappers having to do in order to get radio play (your argument for why Kendrick won't continue to make the music he has been making till now), why are you even bothering to expect a quality mainstream rap scene (which I might add doesn't require every rapper to be spitting about the conscious stuff Cole and Kendrick do)? I understand how you feel about the state of mainstream rap but with the way you express your outlook, it sounds like you're holding your breath for something that you're sure isn't going to happen. Do you listen to any non-mainstream rappers because it doesn't sound like you do.

Do you even think about what you are going type before you type it? You named two people that were not ignorant this is a good thing to you? Do you see that as a positive for Hip-Hop? My generalization is not wrong because you can only name two who I can guarantee you will pressured into becoming ignorant and cooning because that is what the music industry likes. Did you ever hear of a rapper called Lupe Fiasco? He did not last long because he was told to dumb his lyrics down and Lupe Fiasco does not have a recording contract anymore because he did not want to do dumb ignorant music. These two are not going to be around for long for the same reason. See you are giving two examples without realizing why we only have two in the first place.

I am not holding my breath for anything I know what is going to happen. It started happening the minute major labels started buying up the small rap labels in the late 80s and early 90s. History does not repeat itself people just keep doing the same stuff over and over again without learning. I am old enough to have seen all this already.

Radio play is overrated kendrick lamar and jcole sell actually more albums. Im sure like any artist they would like to hear their music on the radio but they both been played on the radio before and I think for them two in particular they care more about their artistic pursuits and sales of their work than radio play. Im sure people around them want them to make more radio friendly music but they already have their audience and its not the same as future lil uzi kodak black etc.

[Edited 1/4/17 6:52am]

laurarichardson said:

The ghost of Kurt.

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said:

////You can only name two! Kind of makes my point.

Not really since I provided you 2 mainstream rappers who don't fit the description of "cooning and corporate ass kissing" whereas you and mj said they all fit that description. Like I said, you're listening to the wrong rappers.

Motown you are a very intelligent poster. I know you can understand that listing only 2 rappers proves that for the majority most mainstream rappers of this era, are corporate gimmicks and don't rap about anything real. It still supports the point

laurarichardson said:

MotownSubdivision said:

laurarichardson said: *SIGH* I never said that mainstream rap today was a mecca of MCs, I merely pointed out the fact that not every single mainstream rapper isn't some ignorant, cooning corporate ass-kisser as you said. Whether I named 2 artists or 20, 1 was all that was needed to prove that generalization wrong. It ain't much but for the sake of this debate it's more than enough. Whether or not you like Cole is irrelevant. The bottom line is he doesn't fit the bill of the average present day mainstream rapper. While I'm at it though I may as well ask why you think he sucks. As for Kendrick, you're speaking out of speculation. Up to this point he has been a socially conscious MC and you can't confirm that will change. He's innocent until proven guilty, basically. Lastly, based on your talk about what rappers having to do in order to get radio play (your argument for why Kendrick won't continue to make the music he has been making till now), why are you even bothering to expect a quality mainstream rap scene (which I might add doesn't require every rapper to be spitting about the conscious stuff Cole and Kendrick do)? I understand how you feel about the state of mainstream rap but with the way you express your outlook, it sounds like you're holding your breath for something that you're sure isn't going to happen. Do you listen to any non-mainstream rappers because it doesn't sound like you do.

Do you even think about what you are going type before you type it? You named two people that were not ignorant this is a good thing to you? Do you see that as a positive for Hip-Hop? My generalization is not wrong because you can only name two who I can guarantee you will pressured into becoming ignorant and cooning because that is what the music industry likes. Did you ever hear of a rapper called Lupe Fiasco? He did not last long because he was told to dumb his lyrics down and Lupe Fiasco does not have a recording contract anymore because he did not want to do dumb ignorant music. These two are not going to be around for long for the same reason. See you are giving two examples without realizing why we only have two in the first place.

I am not holding my breath for anything I know what is going to happen. It started happening the minute major labels started buying up the small rap labels in the late 80s and early 90s. History does not repeat itself people just keep doing the same stuff over and over again without learning. I am old enough to have seen all this already.

I agree Commercial and mainstream rap has been dumbed down for the corporate's agenda. This has been a problem in mainstream rap for over 20 years now. This is the result of greed and the agenda to destroy the Black story/culture which was heavily rooted in hip hop/rap.

[Edited 1/5/17 9:09am]

mjscarousal said:

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

Motown you are a very intelligent poster. I know you can understand that listing only 2 rappers proves that for the majority most mainstream rappers of this era, are corporate gimmicks and don't rap about anything real. It still supports the point

I still proved otherwise. It's a technicality but still is proof that not "all" mainstream rappers are the way you guys described. That said, I never once said or even implied that mainstream rap is in a good place or that Cole and Kendrick are enough to say that the genre on a mainstream level is good because it isn't.

Your posts imply you are missing this point which is the overall point Laura and I are making. You yourself insist you agree with the point so I don't get the constant mention of Kendrick in order to invalidate this point (that you yourself agree with.) Also, I notice you keep saying "you are listening to the wrong rappers" but its been made clear we are only referring to mainstream and commercial rap and not rap as a whole (i.e. indie, underground, etc). I also don't consider J Cole to be a mainstream rapper but then again maybe he has had some Top 40 radio hits.

[Edited 1/5/17 10:04am]

mjscarousal said:

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

Your posts imply you are missing this point which is the overall point Laura and I are making. You yourself insist you agree with the point so I don't get the constant mention of Kendrick in order to invalidate this point (that you yourself agree with.) Also, I notice you keep saying "you are listening to the wrong rappers" but its been made clear we are only referring to mainstream and commercial rap and not rap as a whole (i.e. indie, underground, etc). I also don't consider J Cole to be a mainstream rapper but then again maybe he has had some Top 40 radio hits.

[Edited 1/5/17 10:04am]

I was only referring to mainstream rap. If you two are saying there is literally no decent rapper in the mainstream right now and I mention 2 decent rappers that you haven't said anything about that does validate my point that you're listening to the wrong (mainstream) rappers. That's only 2 but that's 2 more than the 0 that you and laura were saying and by me saying so, it doesn't imply that I think the current commercial rap scene is good. It just means that there are 2 rappers who stand out from the pack. Cole is mainstream rapper. He's not just the first hip hop artist but (I think) the first artist in the last near 27 years (25+ at the time) to have an album with no features go platinum. That accomplishment has even become a meme, I'm surprised you haven't come across it yet.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree because I feel your constant mention of Kendrick and J Cole is your pursuit to invalidate the overall point which again you yourself insisted you agree with. I also never said there was no good mainstream rapper but just emphasized the point that this era of commercial rap music is not good and mostly filled with corporate gimmicks overall, mentioning one or two rappers is not going to change that point and it actually proves the point even more. The reason why I said your posts imply you are missing the point because you have argued passionately that there are exceptions to this overall epidemic in today's mainstream rap scene BUT those two rappers does not change the fact that this music era is mostly consumed with corporate gimmicky rappers and I personally don't think those two rappers are light years away from the pack, there descent in terms of today's standards. Most of the rap and hip hop I listen to is from the 80s and 90s. I thought Kendrick's first album was good compared to the other junk out now and J Cole is alright but for the most part I don't listen to the mainstream music out now (overall outside of 1 or exceptions) because it doesn't move me and it is just not good music.

mjscarousal said:

MotownSubdivision said:

mjscarousal said:

Well I guess we can agree to disagree because I feel your constant mention of Kendrick and J Cole is your pursuit to invalidate the overall point which again you yourself insisted you agree with. I also never said there was no good mainstream rapper but just emphasized the point that this era of commercial rap music is not good and mostly filled with corporate gimmicks overall, mentioning one or two rappers is not going to change that point and it actually proves the point even more. The reason why I said your posts imply you are missing the point because you have argued passionately that there are exceptions to this overall epidemic in today's mainstream rap scene BUT those two rappers does not change the fact that this music era is mostly consumed with corporate gimmicky rappers and I personally don't think those two rappers are light years away from the pack, there descent in terms of today's standards. Most of the rap and hip hop I listen to is from the 80s and 90s. I thought Kendrick's first album was good compared to the other junk out now and J Cole is alright but for the most part I don't listen to the mainstream music out now (overall outside of 1 or exceptions) because it doesn't move me and it is just not good music.

How about we all agree that mainstream rap just like mainstream music at large today is trash barring a few exceptions?

I can definitly agree with that.

How mainstream is mainstream

kanyes good

drake is a good wen he actually raps

kendrick is the goat

jcole is not my fav but hes got talent

chance is coming up from the bottom with no label

I would say there all pretty mainstream and make good music.

heathilly said:

heathilly said:

Big krit isn't as mainstream as those 5.

Kendrick overrated? Whaaaat? explain

heathilly said:

MotownSubdivision said:

heathilly said:

Big krit isn't as mainstream as those 5.

Kendrick overrated? Whaaaat? explain

It's the way many people talk about him. You'd think he was the greatest rapper of all time and even today, there are those who can do certain things better than he can. Also, his voice can be annoying. Kendrick has his own style and it just may not be for me. I listen to him and like him but I'm not seeing what makes him this untouchable visionary. His performances are all the way live though.

Ok I see what your saying its more his fans than actually him as a person/artist. But many fans of all artist do the same

Jcole fans hes the new nas/ umm no not even close he doesnt even have 1 classic album

bob dylan fans Great american poet the better than shakespeare/ Uhh no ridiculous

Michael jackson fans hes a god/ uh no

beyonce fans the queen of everything/ no

you get the point

Not saying these people are untalented or bad but their fans make you hate them

But kendrick is hands down the best right now hes undeniable and he can back it up with

section 80

overly dedicated

good kidd

TPAB

I think what makes him stand out is his raps are

1. Smart
2. Densely packed
3. Hes very conceptual and pulls it of flawlessly (this is a big one) You see jcole tried with for your eyez only and missed the mark
4. He understands the balance of bars and making an acutally song (another big one) which kanye is good at the song part but kanyes never been lyrical. And even nas hes good at bars and storytelling but how many enjoyable songs has he made you can actually sing along to?
5. Then hes just the real deal in terms of his ability to spit.

I just think kendrick is a phenom of talent an understanding and he's fairly new career wise so he gets the he aint all that skepticism but he really is all that. I view it like prince in the 1999 period he wrote all that and played all that too he the shit forreal.