What does all these things have to do with songwriting though? I don't see how Jay Z collaborating with Wu Tang or BDK reflect his songwriting skills or abilities. That's like me saying Michael worked with Stevie and Paul so that validates his songwriting skills...well it doesn't. His skills are his skills and nobody validates that or reflect his abilities but his own.
I don't have a favorite Jay Z anything because I don't care for his music. Even his music in the 90's and early 00's was mediocre to me compared to his peers. I don't think my biased is getting in the way of him being awarded for anything. I've said out of all those rappers he is def the most commercially successful. However, I don't think he deseves to be inducted in a Songwriters Hall of Fame and I don't see how all these other things you keep mentioning validates his songwriting skills.
It has a lot to do with it. Jay was well respected by his peers long before he dropped an album. Legendary rappers give him props daily. What does Kool Koe Dee or KRS-1 have to gain by saying Jay-Z is a great talent? All these things absolutely validate Jay-Z as one if the greatest rappers of All-Time. You not seeing that is showing a bias for Jay-Z. I've never in my years heard a Hip-Hop fan say Jay-Z is corny. You can not like someone but respect their skills. Master P is probably my favorite rapper ever, but he's no where near the top of my greatest MCs list.
No it does not because what another artists states has nothing to do with their skill. Stevie Wonder did a song with Drake and praised him for his talent so does that mean that Drake is the greatest rapper ever just because Stevie Wonder did a song with him and gave him compliments? Paul Mcartney did a song with Rihanna and has performed with her multiple times and spoke highly of her so does that mean Rihanna is one of the greatest of all time? I am sorry but your argument has nothing to do with Jay Z's skill set or talent and since you want to go there, there have actually been alot of rappers that have called out Jay Z and find him overrated and I have actually heard Krs One (who I love by the way) criticize Jay Z, I've heard Chuck D and a lot of other legendary rappers call out Jay Z too.
What does all these things have to do with songwriting though? I don't see how Jay Z collaborating with Wu Tang or BDK reflect his songwriting skills or abilities. That's like me saying Michael worked with Stevie and Paul so that validates his songwriting skills...well it doesn't. His skills are his skills and nobody validates that or reflect his abilities but his own.
I don't have a favorite Jay Z anything because I don't care for his music. Even his music in the 90's and early 00's was mediocre to me compared to his peers. I don't think my biased is getting in the way of him being awarded for anything. I've said out of all those rappers he is def the most commercially successful. However, I don't think he deseves to be inducted in a Songwriters Hall of Fame and I don't see how all these other things you keep mentioning validates his songwriting skills.
It has a lot to do with it. Jay was well respected by his peers long before he dropped an album. Legendary rappers give him props daily. What does Kool Koe Dee or KRS-1 have to gain by saying Jay-Z is a great talent? All these things absolutely validate Jay-Z as one if the greatest rappers of All-Time. You not seeing that is showing a bias for Jay-Z. I've never in my years heard a Hip-Hop fan say Jay-Z is corny. You can not like someone but respect their skills. Master P is probably my favorite rapper ever, but he's no where near the top of my greatest MCs list.
No it does not because what another artists states has nothing to do with their skill. Stevie Wonder did a song with Drake and praised him for his talent so does that mean that Drake is the greatest rapper ever just because Stevie Wonder did a song with him and gave him compliments? Paul Mcartney did a song with Rihanna and has performed with her multiple times and spoke highly of her so does that mean Rihanna is one of the greatest of all time? I am sorry but your argument has nothing to do with Jay Z's skill set or talent and since you want to go there, there have actually been alot of rappers that have called out Jay Z and find him overrated and I have actually heard Krs One (who I love by the way) criticize Jay Z, I've heard Chuck D and a lot of other legendary rappers call out Jay Z too.
60 year old musicians doing aongs with someone because they're hot is different than working with a guy who never released an album in 1994.
Krs and Chuck called out Jay Z sure, but not because he's wack but for other reasons outside the music.
Hell, Chuck D just said LL Cool J should be inducted into the Rock Hall before Pac. Doesn't mean he thinks Pac is corny.
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
No it does not because what another artists states has nothing to do with their skill. Stevie Wonder did a song with Drake and praised him for his talent so does that mean that Drake is the greatest rapper ever just because Stevie Wonder did a song with him and gave him compliments? Paul Mcartney did a song with Rihanna and has performed with her multiple times and spoke highly of her so does that mean Rihanna is one of the greatest of all time? I am sorry but your argument has nothing to do with Jay Z's skill set or talent and since you want to go there, there have actually been alot of rappers that have called out Jay Z and find him overrated and I have actually heard Krs One (who I love by the way) criticize Jay Z, I've heard Chuck D and a lot of other legendary rappers call out Jay Z too.
60 year old musicians doing aongs with someone because they're hot is different than working with a guy who never released an album in 1994. Krs and Chuck called out Jay Z sure, but not because he's wack but for other reasons outside the music. Hell, Chuck D just said LL Cool J should be inducted into the Rock Hall before Pac. Doesn't mean he thinks Pac is corny.
It doesn't matter they still praised them for their talents the same as you are arguing those other rappers did for Jay Z and again that does not validate an individuals skill set which they have to prove on their own merit. You still haven't provided anything that supports why you think Jay is a great songwriter that deserves to be inducted.
I actually agree with Chuck D that LL Cool J should be inducted before 2Pac. I think they both should be inducted but I have said this many times that artists that pioneered for other artists should get in first before artists that succeeded them.
No it does not because what another artists states has nothing to do with their skill. Stevie Wonder did a song with Drake and praised him for his talent so does that mean that Drake is the greatest rapper ever just because Stevie Wonder did a song with him and gave him compliments? Paul Mcartney did a song with Rihanna and has performed with her multiple times and spoke highly of her so does that mean Rihanna is one of the greatest of all time? I am sorry but your argument has nothing to do with Jay Z's skill set or talent and since you want to go there, there have actually been alot of rappers that have called out Jay Z and find him overrated and I have actually heard Krs One (who I love by the way) criticize Jay Z, I've heard Chuck D and a lot of other legendary rappers call out Jay Z too.
60 year old musicians doing aongs with someone because they're hot is different than working with a guy who never released an album in 1994. Krs and Chuck called out Jay Z sure, but not because he's wack but for other reasons outside the music. Hell, Chuck D just said LL Cool J should be inducted into the Rock Hall before Pac. Doesn't mean he thinks Pac is corny.
It doesn't matter they still praised them for their talents the same as you are arguing those other rappers did for Jay Z and again that does not validate an individuals skill set which they have to prove on their own merit. You still haven't provided anything that supports why you think Jay is a great songwriter that deserves to be inducted.
I actually agree with Chuck D that LL Cool J should be inducted before 2Pac. I think they both should be inducted but I have said this many times that artists that pioneered for other artists should get in first before artists that succeeded them.
You said he is corny. I don't think any lyric, verse or song of Jay I post will sway your mind. It's already made up that he's corny.
How would you rank these MCs?
KRS-One Rakim Big Daddy Kane Kool G Rap Ice Cube Scarface 2Pac Nas Biggie Jay-Z Eminem Andre 3000 Redman Raekwon Ghostface Killah DMX Q-Tip Chuck D
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
It doesn't matter they still praised them for their talents the same as you are arguing those other rappers did for Jay Z and again that does not validate an individuals skill set which they have to prove on their own merit. You still haven't provided anything that supports why you think Jay is a great songwriter that deserves to be inducted.
I actually agree with Chuck D that LL Cool J should be inducted before 2Pac. I think they both should be inducted but I have said this many times that artists that pioneered for other artists should get in first before artists that succeeded them.
You said he is corny. I don't think any lyric, verse or song of Jay I post will sway your mind. It's already made up that he's corny. How would you rank these MCs? KRS-One Rakim Big Daddy Kane Kool G Rap Ice Cube Scarface 2Pac Nas Biggie Jay-Z Eminem Andre 3000 Redman Raekwon Ghostface Killah DMX Q-Tip Chuck D
I said he was a corny songwriter
How am I ranking them? Am I ranking them based on songwriting specifically or on material, impact, skill, influence, or flow?
mjscarousal said: You said he is corny. I don't think any lyric, verse or song of Jay I post will sway your mind. It's already made up that he's corny. How would you rank these MCs? KRS-One Rakim Big Daddy Kane Kool G Rap Ice Cube Scarface 2Pac Nas Biggie Jay-Z Eminem Andre 3000 Redman Raekwon Ghostface Killah DMX Q-Tip Chuck D
I said he was a corny songwriter
How am I ranking them? Am I ranking them based on songwriting specifically or on material, impact, skill, influence, or flow?
rank them as songwriters and rappers.
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
These lists were extremely hard to do and are subject to change for me and depends on mood and preference at the moment
Songwriter/Quality and Creativity of Lyrics
Nas KRS-One Rakim
2Pac Chuck D Ice Cube
Redman
Andre 3000
Q Tip
DMX
Ghostface Killah
Raekwon
Eminem
Biggie
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
With how well they rap
Nas
Rakim
2pac
Krs One
Ice Cube
Redman
Chuck D
Biggie
Ghostface
Q Tip
Andre 3000
Raekwon
DMX
Eminem
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
[Edited 10/26/16 14:48pm]
What about MC Lyte, Salt'n'Pepa?
I personally have other rappers I love that I would also inlcude but that is the list LittleBlue wanted me to rank. I actually love MC Lyte and Salt n Pepa.
I personally have other rappers I love that I would also inlcude but that is the list LittleBlue wanted me to rank. I actually love MC Lyte and Salt n Pepa.
These lists were extremely hard to do and are subject to change for me and depends on mood and preference at the moment
Songwriter/Quality and Creativity of Lyrics
Nas KRS-One Rakim
2Pac Chuck D Ice Cube
Redman
Andre 3000
Q Tip
DMX
Ghostface Killah
Raekwon
Eminem
Biggie
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
With how well they rap
Nas
Rakim
2pac
Krs One
Ice Cube
Redman
Chuck D
Biggie
Ghostface
Q Tip
Andre 3000
Raekwon
DMX
Eminem
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
[Edited 10/26/16 14:48pm]
You have Big Daddy Kane last? He's amazing!
That was the songwriters list and I don't think his lyrics and rhythmes were as creative or compelling as the list you gave but yes he is a rap pioneer and he has some fun classics although I personally would rank some other rappers over him from his era which is why Chuck and Rakim are ranked higher and you forgot LL Cool J who I also would rank higher than him.
Now its your turn! I want you to rank these same rappers! Rank them by their songwriting and rap skills
I personally have other rappers I love that I would also inlcude but that is the list LittleBlue wanted me to rank. I actually love MC Lyte and Salt n Pepa.
What would be your list?
Salt'n'Pepa
MC Lyte
Heavy D
Kid 'n' Play
Queen Latifah
Monnie Love
Lil Kim
Foxy Brown
Yo Yo
Ice T
Snoop Dogg
MC Hammer
Naughty By Nature
House of Pain
Cypress Hill
De La Soul
Digital Underground
Run DMC
Biz Markie
Tone Loc
Young MC
LL Cool J
Kurtis Blow
Beastie Boys
Whodini
[Edited 10/26/16 18:01pm]
[Edited 10/26/16 18:03pm]
[Edited 10/26/16 18:10pm]
Great list! Thanks for acknowledging the women and some other underrated and overlooked pioneers and legends.
These lists were extremely hard to do and are subject to change for me and depends on mood and preference at the moment
Songwriter/Quality and Creativity of Lyrics
Nas KRS-One Rakim
2Pac Chuck D Ice Cube
Redman
Andre 3000
Q Tip
DMX
Ghostface Killah
Raekwon
Eminem
Biggie
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
With how well they rap
Nas
Rakim
2pac
Krs One
Ice Cube
Redman
Chuck D
Biggie
Ghostface
Q Tip
Andre 3000
Raekwon
DMX
Eminem
Jay Z
Scarface
Big Daddy Kane
[Edited 10/26/16 14:48pm]
You have Big Daddy Kane last? He's amazing!
That was the songwriters list and I don't think his lyrics and rhythmes were as creative or compelling as the list you gave but yes he is a rap pioneer and he has some fun classics although I personally would rank some other rappers over him from his era which is why Chuck and Rakim are ranked higher and you forgot LL Cool J who I also would rank higher than him.
Now its your turn! I want you to rank these same rappers! Rank them by their songwriting and rap skills
[Edited 10/26/16 21:29pm]
Songwriting/Lyrical content
Chuck D
Scarface
Ice Cube
Nas
KRS-One
The Notorious B.I.G
DMX
Tupac
Rakim
Q-Tip
Andre 3000
Ghostface Killah
Jay-Z
Big Daddy Kane
Redman
Raekwon
Eminem
Rappin/Flow
Rakim
Big Daddy Kane
Jay-Z
The Notorious B.I.G
Kool G Rap
Andre 3000
Eminem
Scarface
Nas
Chuck D
Ice Cube
Ghostface Killah
KRS-One
Redman
DMX
Raekwon
Q-Tip
Tupac [Edited 10/26/16 22:55pm]
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
That was the songwriters list and I don't think his lyrics and rhythmes were as creative or compelling as the list you gave but yes he is a rap pioneer and he has some fun classics although I personally would rank some other rappers over him from his era which is why Chuck and Rakim are ranked higher and you forgot LL Cool J who I also would rank higher than him.
Now its your turn! I want you to rank these same rappers! Rank them by their songwriting and rap skills
[Edited 10/26/16 21:29pm]
Songwriting/Lyrical content
Chuck D Scarface Ice Cube Nas KRS-One The Notorious B.I.G DMX Tupac Rakim Q-Tip Andre 3000 Ghostface Killah Jay-Z Big Daddy Kane Redman Raekwon Eminem
Rappin/Flow
Rakim Big Daddy Kane Jay-Z The Notorious B.I.G Kool G Rap Andre 3000 Eminem Scarface Nas Chuck D Ice Cube Ghostface Killah KRS-One Redman DMX Raekwon Q-Tip Tupac
That was the songwriters list and I don't think his lyrics and rhythmes were as creative or compelling as the list you gave but yes he is a rap pioneer and he has some fun classics although I personally would rank some other rappers over him from his era which is why Chuck and Rakim are ranked higher and you forgot LL Cool J who I also would rank higher than him.
Now its your turn! I want you to rank these same rappers! Rank them by their songwriting and rap skills
[Edited 10/26/16 21:29pm]
Songwriting/Lyrical content
Chuck D Scarface Ice Cube Nas KRS-One The Notorious B.I.G DMX Tupac Rakim Q-Tip Andre 3000 Ghostface Killah Jay-Z Big Daddy Kane Redman Raekwon Eminem
Rappin/Flow
Rakim Big Daddy Kane Jay-Z The Notorious B.I.G Kool G Rap Andre 3000 Eminem Scarface Nas Chuck D Ice Cube Ghostface Killah KRS-One Redman DMX Raekwon Q-Tip Tupac
Pac is a great rapper but so is everyone here on this list. Eminem is a great lyricist but so is everyone else here. Em raps about random gibberish. Sounds good because he's a great rapper with great delivery but it's nuch if nothing.
Tupacs delivery and rapping style is below all of these guys. He makes up for it with great lyrics
They may be last out of a group of 15, but they're in front of every one else.
Just like Bod Dylan is a great songwriter not so much a singer. Jackie Wilson, great singer didn't write too many of his own material.
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
Pac is a great rapper but so is everyone here on this list. Eminem is a great lyricist but so is everyone else here. Em raps about random gibberish. Sounds good because he's a great rapper with great delivery but it's nuch if nothing. Tupacs delivery and rapping style is below all of these guys. He makes up for it with great lyrics They may be last out of a group of 15, but they're in front of every one else. Just like Bod Dylan is a great songwriter not so much a singer. Jackie Wilson, great singer didn't write too many of his own material.
How so? I would argue that out of that entire group Pac's delivery, flow, articulation and tone is one of the most unique ever of all time in the rap world. Its very recognizable and his flow and delivery is very distinct and a lot of other rappers have been influenced by his flow and delivery. DMX, Ja Rule among others have often imitated his flow so I find it odd you would rank him all the way at the bottom.
mjscarousal said: Pac is a great rapper but so is everyone here on this list. Eminem is a great lyricist but so is everyone else here. Em raps about random gibberish. Sounds good because he's a great rapper with great delivery but it's nuch if nothing. Tupacs delivery and rapping style is below all of these guys. He makes up for it with great lyrics They may be last out of a group of 15, but they're in front of every one else. Just like Bod Dylan is a great songwriter not so much a singer. Jackie Wilson, great singer didn't write too many of his own material.
How so? I would argue that out of that entire group Pac's delivery, flow, articulation and tone is one of the most unique ever of all time in the rap world. Its very recognizable and his flow and delivery is very distinct and a lot of other rappers have been influenced by his flow and delivery. DMX, Ja Rule among others have often imitated his flow so I find it odd you would rank him all the way at the bottom.
Also working with Digital Underground helped Tupac develop his delivery, style and flow, when he was in the group and as a solo artist
Pac is a great rapper but so is everyone here on this list. Eminem is a great lyricist but so is everyone else here. Em raps about random gibberish. Sounds good because he's a great rapper with great delivery but it's nuch if nothing. Tupacs delivery and rapping style is below all of these guys. He makes up for it with great lyrics They may be last out of a group of 15, but they're in front of every one else. Just like Bod Dylan is a great songwriter not so much a singer. Jackie Wilson, great singer didn't write too many of his own material.
How so? I would argue that out of that entire group Pac's delivery, flow, articulation and tone is one of the most unique ever of all time in the rap world. Its very recognizable and his flow and delivery is very distinct and a lot of other rappers have been influenced by his flow and delivery. DMX, Ja Rule among others have often imitated his flow so I find it odd you would rank him all the way at the bottom.
I never heard Pac in a DMX. X is an east coast guy. I hear more of a Treach from Nody By Nature. Their style as in look was like Pac but that's it.
And yes it's unique. Everyone in that list is unique. The best of the best are always unique. How many guys you hear sound like Redman or Scarface? About the same amount as Pac. Which is zero.
You have Big Daddy Kane very low and he'd eat Pac and almost everyone on that list rappin.
Pac could never pull off something like Raw or Set It Off. And Kane never did anything like Dear Mamma or Keep Ya Head Up.
PRINCE: Always and Forever
MICHAEL JACKSON: Always and Forever
-----
Live Your Life How U Wanna Live It
How so? I would argue that out of that entire group Pac's delivery, flow, articulation and tone is one of the most unique ever of all time in the rap world. Its very recognizable and his flow and delivery is very distinct and a lot of other rappers have been influenced by his flow and delivery. DMX, Ja Rule among others have often imitated his flow so I find it odd you would rank him all the way at the bottom.
I never heard Pac in a DMX. X is an east coast guy. I hear more of a Treach from Nody By Nature. Their style as in look was like Pac but that's it. And yes it's unique. Everyone in that list is unique. The best of the best are always unique. How many guys you hear sound like Redman or Scarface? About the same amount as Pac. Which is zero. You have Big Daddy Kane very low and he'd eat Pac and almost everyone on that list rappin. Pac could never pull off something like Raw or Set It Off. And Kane never did anything like Dear Mamma or Keep Ya Head Up.
I def hear Pac in DMX in terms of his aggressive hard delivery in his rap flows and tone. Big Daddy Kane was not nearly as talented as a lyrist and songwriter as Pac and again Pac definitly had a more unique flow and tone. No competition IMO I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.
How so? I would argue that out of that entire group Pac's delivery, flow, articulation and tone is one of the most unique ever of all time in the rap world. Its very recognizable and his flow and delivery is very distinct and a lot of other rappers have been influenced by his flow and delivery. DMX, Ja Rule among others have often imitated his flow so I find it odd you would rank him all the way at the bottom.
Also working with Digital Underground helped Tupac develop his delivery, style and flow, when he was in the group and as a solo artist
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He just had it all, legendary.