alexnvrmnd said:

I'm tired of talking to you because I already know How Bad the Cat is&by the way you keep Posting back you are as well.anyway Essence is a Grown Man&He will put His thoughts on this I'm sure of this.I'm done with this because you just want to Argue&I have already Proved my Case&Point.

alexnvrmnd said:

Awww where did the Ps and Qs go? You're disrespecting R and taking the common cheapshots.

Regarding "Modern King Of R&B", D'Angelo is my favourite artist to come out of the 90s but for domineering impact and running things in his field consistently for over ten years now, I place R at the top and so the label "King" sits OK with me... and Maxxx is nowehere near the only person to use the title.

Essence said:

No cheapshots in my statement. Only my opinion. Have you noticed that in my entire argument here, I nowhere even spoke of his personal problems/lifestyle. I've mentioned only the music, and in each post, I've made SURE to give him his props (but also to say he's not as powerful as you guys make him out to be). And as I said before, he may be the most consistent as far as sales, but if you trace his first album to his last, there's almost no expansion or growth. So to that extent, he doesn't impress me, not like the two aforementioned musicians I mentioned before, Prine and TTD. Yes, he can make hits, but these days, it doens't seem to take much to pander to today's radio R&B listener. Look at all the other shit on the radio and on top of the charts. It doesn't always take quality to make it to the top. You guys think he's so great, then so be it (again, I think he's quite talented too and I dig a little bit of his shit here and there). But, he's got much more time to go before he truly reaches the level you're saying he's already reached.

mistermaxxx said:

How is it I just want to argue when I'm saying my thoughts or proving my point just as much as you are? I'm arguing no more than your yourself. When does a discussion become an argument? It does seem obvious we will not change the other's mind, but all I'm trying to do is have you put this cat in perspective. And even if you don't, it really just comes down to our different tastes, and the majority of the stuff he does and theimage he projects often leaves quite a sour taste in my mouth. Call me when he starts doing R&B with instaments with warmth and feeling...

alexnvrmnd said:

Look, nobody says you have to like the King or his domain (R&B/soul music), you might think he's terrible and want him overthrown ASAP but to deny that R. Kelly is the main man as regards success and impact in the genre "R&B" is ignorance. It's just fact and been fact for over ten years now...

This week's Billboard chart:

#4 Ignition remix
#16 Hell Yeah (Ginuwine), prod. & written R. Kelly
#19 Girlfriend (B2K), prod. & written R. Kelly
#20 What Would You Do? (Isley Bros.), prod. & written R. Kelly
#29 Guess What (Syleena Johnson), prod. & written R. Kelly
#35 Laundromat (Nivea), prod. & written R. Kelly
#45 Snake feat. Big Tigger
#64 I'll Never Leave
#82 Who's That feat. Fat Joe
#95 A Soldier's Heart

RK's got 10% of the charts to himself.

Essence said:

You've missed my entire point. He could have all 100 spots on the Top 100 for all I care, but that wouldn't make it good, now would it? It may be to you, but he's still not on a certain level as a TTD or Prince, as far as an artist. I'm not doubting that he has any talent or impact on the charts, and that's what you're not getting. Again, as I said before, it's obviously a matter of taste, but there's a lot of shit that's sold like hotcakes that wasn't worth a damn, so bringing up chart positions holds no water to me. He may be what the kids are buying right now...congrats. I'm glad he's lining up his pockets and has people buying his records. But so what? I'm speaking on a purely artistic level.

All this, and I've still said I like some of his music.

I haven't kept up with the news, but last I heard he was a dirty paedophile.

Is that still how it hangs?

alexnvrmnd said:

Not once did I equate chart position with talent, rather just proving that be he a good King or a bad King (matter of opinion) he is "the modern King Of R&B" (fact). I have already acknowledged you don't rate him that highly, thats by the by, what I was saying is a "King" doesn't have to be the best or your favourite just recognised as the dominating force of their domain. When Maxxx uses that title for RK (when he is obviously dominating R&B, be it a good or bad thing) you mock him every time...
[This message was edited Tue Apr 15 10:33:16 PDT 2003 by Essence]

Essence said:

But the word "king" IS being used in this context as a euphemism for being the best, not just having your name all over the charts. That's why I dispute (not mock) that title...because it is indeed being inferred as being the best. I'm just reiterating that dominating a certain chart doesn't mean you're the best, artist or talent wise (whether you were saying it or not). But, it's cool. Just opinions.

Essence said:

Essence Man you can't talk Sense or reason with a Hater.just offer some Shampoo&Hope the Warm Water will Shake the Flakes way? first of all R.Kelly ain't even thinking about TTD or Prince except out of Respect for what they have done.but R.Kelly is rolling with Folks that have More Musical Impact than them Combined in the Isley Brothers you Dig?Yeah I Played that Trump Card.&you don't tell me on Musicianship&Impact that Prince&TTD Combined can hang with the Isley Brothers overall now do you?? that is how R.Kelly is rolling.this Cat is So Badd that He has Hits for the Lightweight Acts,Nivea,B2k, MiddleWeight Kelly Price,Syleena Johnson,Heavyweight Himself&The Isley Brothers.Essence like Myself dig alot of His Stuff that ain't even Hits&for that Matter of the Outtake Variety&Flavor.R has this One Cut called "Something's never change" alone that is so Soulful it ain't even funny&it might not ever see the light of day or His 2nd cut from the "Shaft" Soundtrack Called "Up&Outta Here".I mean you are talking about a Cat that has side Songs that Blow away alot of folks Best Main Jams.Lame Excuse about oh Prince&TTD don't want a Hit.that's like Michael Jordan or Shaq saying oh I don't want anymore Rings.save that Comedy for B.E.T or Comedy Central.that One trick Pony Joke is not to funny with me anymore.

alexnvrmnd said:

R.Kelly is Very Talented,Dominating the Charts,Thriving with All walks of Artists from a B2k,Nivea,Syleena Johnson,Isley brothers,Fat Joe,Celine Dion,Michael Jackson,Jay Z,etc... I mean when you study&truly see How He is able to Roll with all of these Wide Range of Stylist Artists that alone Speaks Volumes IMHO.nobody can Fade Da Kang of Modern R&B.not to mention a Strong Artist in His Own Right To Boot.

I think the only ones who need shampoo are the ones talking high shit about R Kelly. How is it hatin' when I've already given him his props? I see there's no trying to have you guys look at him in any kind of perspective. Just like I said before, look at it like this...Prince and TTD can do what Kelly can do, but not vice versa. That should shut everybody up! Kelly couldn't dream to rock like The Cross or funk like Let's Work or even Everlasting Now (for something more current).

And you can't compare basketball to music. Your goal in basketball is to win a championship. The goal in music is to get better at your craft not, necessarily, to have your name all over the charts. But then again, for some artists, to see their name all over the charts is their only goal. It ain't everyone's. Prince has said it himself. Do you know how easy it would be for him to write Purple Rain 2? And you talk about all of the artists Kelly has worked with...doouble that and that'll tell you how many WANT to work with Prince (and TTD would be close to that too, if his old label had any sense and he gave a damn)!!

Wide range of artists? Only Celine and MJ belong out of that group in the Pop category. Everyone else is hip hop or R&B. That's hardly considered "wide".

And to your other statement, you're outta your GOURD to think Prince and TTD combined couldn't handle the Isleys musically (and I'm one of the biggest fans of the Isley Bros...ever; why do you think I detest the "Mr. Big" image so?)!!! Pass the pipe, cuz I wanna take a few hits off of that, man.

As I said, he's the king of currently selling records, and that's about it. His level may get higher in the future when he's put out more work, but for now, IMO, that's it! We can obviously agree to disagree, but I'm sure Kelly HIMSELF would tell you he'd defer to those two (or at least Prince).
[This message was edited Tue Apr 15 17:37:12 PDT 2003 by alexnvrmnd]

alexnvrmnd said:

You just won the slam dunk contest mayne

alexnvrmnd said:

After your Lame Posts Plese Don't Ever other Quoating Me or acknowledging Me.Your Posts Stink&this has gotten personal so I'm through&Look who is Supporting you here? that alone makes this a Mute&time to move on Point now.

mistermaxxx said:

How has this gotten personal?! Who's supporting your claims besides Essence? I've had at least 2 other posters disagree with your sentiments. You just missed the one above your latest one. And who gives a fuck who agrees with who? You call my posts lame because I bring up valid points that you can't seem to debate them, and then claim I'm getting personal? What the hell did I say that was personal? I've gone out of my fuckin' way to be respectful to you, Essence, and y'all's thoughts throughout this entire thread, and even give you your props on whatever opinion you had, but I was just saying, "I disagreed and here's why..." I even said we're basically agreeing to disagree (which is fine by me), and you still wanna say how right your are and then run out of the kitchen because it's obviously too hot. If anything, YOU are the one who's gotten personal (just over differing opinions), and I refuse to stoop to that level with you. If this is how you conduct yourself after trying to have a normal, non-heated (on my end) discussion/disagreement, then you won't have to worry about me quoting or acknowledging you anymore...I passed high school YEARS ago.

By the way, the word I think you want to use is "moot", not "mute".
[This message was edited Tue Apr 15 17:39:08 PDT 2003 by alexnvrmnd]

alexnvrmnd said:

it's no wonder at those who have supported you.Essence is a Smart Knowledgable Cat&Very Versatile¬ stuck in a time Warp also doesn't show Hate&has never given Me a Hard time here unlike some of those same folks that have your back on this Thread.you are limited with how far AR&B Music reaches.R&B music is a Soup of many flavors&ingrediants.but somehow it's gotten a Bad knock.Hip-Hop is the ruling thumb&has been for over a Decade now&For R to balance both of them out&also tap the Pop Market speaks volumes to Me.Nobody cares about TTD anymore aside from Fans ok.as for Prince:Live is where He still Reigns nobody outside of Fans/Casual or folks interested think nor talk about His New Stuff like they use to.you try to knock Success in a Industry where you gotta do well or be forgotten.you act like it's a Sin to Be Successful?also R.Kelly is Flat out a Badd Cat as a Artist.you ain't sad much.you are stuck in the Past My Friend with Prince&TTD.before I hear all of this about They could have Hits Jazz&they don't care.ask yourself how come they don't care? how come they are precieved as Has-Beens&Hit-Less?? you spend too much time listening to what Prince says as to forming your own thoughts like myself on this subject.alot of cats can play various Styles what does that Prove anyway? it's about touching people&Moving them.R.Kelly can play there Stuff as well&I've heard Him do it.bottom line it's his time to shine&they had there time.Prince still has a shot if He can land Some Great Songs? but you see Prince hasn't had a Knock-out Jam since when? Still a Helluva Live Act but even a Prince Live Album didn't move alot so what does that say about Him now?I still Buy His Records&will always Support His Stuff but I've also Moved on&dig many other Artists who I know can bring it.we agree to disagree but please don't throw that Jive in My Face they could have Hits if they wanted to or that Can he do as they do Elementary Mess?? because Prove you still got it&Yes R.Kelly is Versatile Enough to do there thing.Peace

mistermaxxx said:

I've cared less about Prince having a hit since before Diamonds and Pearls, back when he did care about making hits, which he did. So, don't say I'm not forming my own opinions and swallowing Prince's rhetoric, my friend. And to be honest, they really can write a bunch of current hits, if they want to. But to them, it's all about artistic integrity AND a lack of any real financial or institutional backing. I'll be the first to admit that Prince ain't what he used to be (he's hit a wall for a WHILE now mainly due to a case of the yawns; he's not as hungry as he used to and has nothing prove to anyone), but he's still got the goods!! And when was the last time Prince had a knockout jam, you ask? I'd say from his last commercial release, the Rainbow Children album! Now, whether it got airplay or not (or even released, for that matter) is a completely different story, but you asked.

And you say Kelly can do the stuff they can do. Where's the proof?? Seriously. I'd like to see/hear some of his jazz, funk, and rock jams. Not just trying to prove a point, but because I really wanna hear it. So far, all he's released is some gospel-type stuff and a blend of R&B and hip hop, which does nothing for me (as did a lot of Prince's older attempts). No, it's not a sin to be successful, but this is one time where I don't see where just because his name is everywhere means he's the best of the current genre, though he's damn close!

I'm not stuck in the past...just where the extraordinary talent is, especially when a lot of it doesn't get recognized due to politics and bureaucracy. As said before, I give Kelly his due on what he'd done so far (Your Body's Callin' is his tightest mid-tempo jam ever), but in my opinion he's got a few more rungs to go reach those two in the artistic department (but probably already passed 'em in sales )!

And I'm sure if Essence didn't like something, he'd mention it, but I wouldn't call it hate. How is it that if someone doesn't agree with something or someone they're labeled a "hater"? I have a VAST knowledge of this genre, which is why I respect y'alls opinion...just as I feel you should respect mine's. Cuz believe it or not I DO know of what I speak and in no way stuck in a time warp.