Cinny said:

MickyDolenz said:

Nothing happened to R&B other than conglomerates like Clear Channel buying up radio stations all over the USA and making identical playlists often played by computer instead of disc jockeys. There's nothing really different about No Scrubs or Bills, Bills Bills subject wise than what people like Denise LaSalle, Bobby Rush, & Marvin Sease were doing other than the updated slang. Denise & Bobby have been around since the 1960s. There's no difference in Bills Bills Bills and these songs

Sure there's no difference ("automo-bills").. Updated with what? Plastic fraud beats?

Mobile-data biiiils!

I fucking knew he would bring up "Ain't Nothin' Goin' On But The Rent". So your point is R&B died sooner?

Cinny said:

Sure there's no difference ("automo-bills").. Updated with what? Plastic fraud beats?

Cinny said:

I fucking knew he would bring up "Ain't Nothin' Goin' On But The Rent". So your point is R&B died sooner?

I said the blues part of "rhythm & blues" died on the radio in the 1960s. If it wasn't for white British invasion acts talking about and/or performing with them, people like B.B. King & Muddy Waters would be obscure today. I didn't say anything about the topics of songs. Whatever you hear today, there's a good chance you can find an old record about the same thing. Like those Lucille Bogan & Jackie Wilson songs I posted with profanity in them. Lucille mostly recorded in the 1930s. Snoop Dogg didn't invent drug songs. They've been around pretty much the entire history of recorded music. There's many old country & blues songs that are violent like the average gangsta rap song. One of the most recorded songs is Stag O'Lee/Stagger Lee. People here talk about women performers being little dressed today. Josephine Baker was doing that in the 1920s, and she was sometimes topless onstage.

MickyDolenz said:

Cinny said:

I fucking knew he would bring up "Ain't Nothin' Goin' On But The Rent". So your point is R&B died sooner?

I said the blues part of "rhythm & blues" died on the radio in the 1960s. If it wasn't for white British invasion acts talking about and/or performing with them, people like B.B. King & Muddy Waters would be obscure today. I didn't say anything about the topics of songs. Whatever you hear today, there's a good chance you can find an old record about the same thing. Like those Lucille Bogan & Jackie Wilson songs I posted with profanity in them. Lucille mostly recorded in the 1930s. Snoop Dogg didn't invent drug songs. They've been around pretty much the entire history of recorded music. There's many old country & blues songs that are violent like the average gangsta rap song. One of the most recorded songs is Stag O'Lee/Stagger Lee. People here talk about women performers being little dressed today. Josephine Baker was doing that in the 1920s, and she was sometimes topless onstage.

You're really saying that the White British invasion "saved" the blues? Really? That sounds outrageous for a number of reasons.

SeventeenDayze said:

You're really saying that the White British invasion "saved" the blues? Really? That sounds outrageous for a number of reasons.

The blues audience is often more white than black today isn't it? There's a lot of white blues performers today as well. Rock n Roll, which was originally R&B by white people with country mixed with it, is considered white music today. A black person doing rock today is called "black rock" & "afropunk". Jimi Hendrix was blues based but he did not get airplay on R&B stations. He had a primarily white audience. Why do you think all of this is? Before the British invasion, blues acts were mostly playing in chitlin circuit clubs and juke joints to mostly black audiences and the bookings started to die off when soul music like Motown started to be played on R&B stations. B.B. King himself in his book said radio abandoned the blues and so did black people in general as some of the middle/upper class black people considered blues "country & low class". B.B. also said black militants in the 1960s called him an Uncle Tom. They would see blues acts as a black hillbilly, not an image to be proud of during the civil rights era. The British heard blues because of pirate radio and black soldiers from the US stationed over there bringing records with them or requesting them at the stores which they weren't carrying at first. They had to order them as imports. So them young people who later formed groups like The Rolling Stones & The Who imported blues to the white people in the US. Top 40 would play the Stones but not Muddy Waters. The invasion acts would talk about their influences, so young white Americans learned about the black blues singers. Veteran blues acts like Lightnin' Hopkins started getting booked into white coffeehouses & clubs where beatniks, college students, and hippies. Ligntnin' even got booked into Carnegie Hall, which was a place people go to see opera singers. The blues singers started to make more money than at the TOBA places and get record deals with major labels that had more reach than the small indie labels they were on before. Some made records with the British musicians.

Here's 2 Billboard R&B singles charts. The first one is from Dec 30, 1957 and the other is May 1, 1965. Look at the kinds of acts that are on them.

MickyDolenz said:

SeventeenDayze said:

You're really saying that the White British invasion "saved" the blues? Really? That sounds outrageous for a number of reasons.

The blues audience is often more white than black today isn't it? There's a lot of white blues performers today as well. Rock n Roll, which was originally R&B by white people with country mixed with it, is considered white music today. A black person doing rock today is called "black rock" & "afropunk". Jimi Hendrix was blues based but he did not get airplay on R&B stations. He had a primarily white audience. Why do you think all of this is? Before the British invasion, blues acts were mostly playing in chitlin circuit clubs and juke joints to mostly black audiences and the bookings started to die off when soul music like Motown started to be played on R&B stations. B.B. King himself in his book said radio abandoned the blues and so did black people in general as some of the middle/upper class black people considered blues "country & low class". B.B. also said black militants in the 1960s called him an Uncle Tom. They would see blues acts as a black hillbilly, not an image to be proud of during the civil rights era. The British heard blues because of pirate radio and black soldiers from the US stationed over there bringing records with them or requesting them at the stores which they weren't carrying at first. They had to order them as imports. So them young people who later formed groups like The Rolling Stones & The Who imported blues to the white people in the US. Top 40 would play the Stones but not Muddy Waters. The invasion acts would talk about their influences, so young white Americans learned about the black blues singers. Veteran blues acts like Lightnin' Hopkins started getting booked into white coffeehouses & clubs where beatniks, college students, and hippies. Ligntnin' even got booked into Carnegie Hall, which was a place people go to see opera singers. The blues singers started to make more money than at the TOBA places and get record deals with major labels that had more reach than the small indie labels they were on before. Some made records with the British musicians.

I don't doubt your knowledge about music but it seems like it's a stretch to suggest that white folk saved the blues. I mean, you just said yourself that black soldiers stationed overseas were the ones who introduced the music to the audiences abroad. I dunno, I think that's not giving a lot of credit to black musicians for keeping the genre alive. It may not have "mass appeal" and you may not have 20 year old kids in the hood listening to it but the foundation of rap music, hip-hop, all of that is rooted in that music by black musicians of that era. You'd be hard pressed to find young people of any generation that didn't have distasteful remarks about entertainers from the generation before. So, to say that "militants" were calling BB King a sellout or whatever perhaps isn't indicative of ALL young people of then and today. I dunno, I think giving credit to white people for "keeping" black music alive isn't giving black listeners of black music a lot of credit. I dunno.

and the org continues to have a complete lack of understanding of good modern music

OrangeClock said:

and the org continues to have a complete lack of understanding of good modern music

Ha! Not me I listen to trap music sometimes, does that count?

OrangeClock said:

and the org continues to have a complete lack of understanding of good modern music

All music is good to somebody or they would not listen to it, buy it, or go to see it in a concert. There's an underground genre called noise.

SeventeenDayze said:

I don't doubt your knowledge about music but it seems like it's a stretch to suggest that white folk saved the blues. I mean, you just said yourself that black soldiers stationed overseas were the ones who introduced the music to the audiences abroad. I dunno, I think that's not giving a lot of credit to black musicians for keeping the genre alive. It may not have "mass appeal" and you may not have 20 year old kids in the hood listening to it but the foundation of rap music, hip-hop, all of that is rooted in that music by black musicians of that era. You'd be hard pressed to find young people of any generation that didn't have distasteful remarks about entertainers from the generation before. So, to say that "militants" were calling BB King a sellout or whatever perhaps isn't indicative of ALL young people of then and today. I dunno, I think giving credit to white people for "keeping" black music alive isn't giving black listeners of black music a lot of credit. I dunno.

Nobody can keep anything alive if there isn't an audience who is willing to pay money to either buy their records or concert tickets. The labels who signed the blues performers were mostly white or Jewish. Without them there would not have been any records for the soldiers to buy to take overseas. If it wasn't for white people who liked black music and played it on the radio (sometimes on illegal pirate radio stations), it would have remained in the juke joints. There wouldn't have been white acts who became famous (Benny Goodman, Elvis Presley) which made some of the white audience who weren't aware of jazz or R&B seek out the originals. There's a reason some want to crossover, because that's usually a bigger audience. Whites are more likely to be nostalgic than a black audience. That's why the Rolling Stones can have big moneymaking tours when they haven't had a hit in decades. Also why The Beatles still sell and they haven't existed since 1970. If more of the black audience supported older music, then old R&B albums would not be out of print (or only available as a costly import from Japan) and get the same kind of attention as Pink Floyd. BET probably thinks music didn't exist before the 1990s. +

MickyDolenz said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I don't doubt your knowledge about music but it seems like it's a stretch to suggest that white folk saved the blues. I mean, you just said yourself that black soldiers stationed overseas were the ones who introduced the music to the audiences abroad. I dunno, I think that's not giving a lot of credit to black musicians for keeping the genre alive. It may not have "mass appeal" and you may not have 20 year old kids in the hood listening to it but the foundation of rap music, hip-hop, all of that is rooted in that music by black musicians of that era. You'd be hard pressed to find young people of any generation that didn't have distasteful remarks about entertainers from the generation before. So, to say that "militants" were calling BB King a sellout or whatever perhaps isn't indicative of ALL young people of then and today. I dunno, I think giving credit to white people for "keeping" black music alive isn't giving black listeners of black music a lot of credit. I dunno.

Nobody can keep anything alive if there isn't an audience who is willing to pay money to either buy their records or concert tickets. The labels who signed the blues performers were mostly white or Jewish. Without them there would not have been any records for the soldiers to buy to take overseas. If it wasn't for white people who liked black music and played it on the radio (sometimes on illegal pirate radio stations), it would have remained in the juke joints. There wouldn't have been white acts who became famous (Benny Goodman, Elvis Presley) which made some of the white audience who weren't aware of jazz or R&B seek out the originals. There's a reason some want to crossover, because that's usually a bigger audience. Whites are more likely to be nostalgic than a black audience. That's why the Rolling Stones can have big moneymaking tours when they haven't had a hit in decades. Also why The Beatles still sell and they haven't existed since 1970. If more of the black audience supported older music, then old R&B albums would not be out of print (or only available as a costly import from Japan) and get the same kind of attention as Pink Floyd. BET probably thinks music didn't exist before the 1990s. +

Well, here's another way of looking at it...black music kind of continues on in ways that "white music" doesn't...it happens in the form of remixes. Yet and still, there are still elements of "old" black music that's still prevalent in gospel music despite how "modern" the gospel sound is now. White artists had the benefit of having the labels pour more money and promotion into their acts than they ever spent on blacks. This is still true today from what I understand. By the way, BET is white owned now so there you have it!

[Edited 1/24/16 13:54pm]

Shit hop intervened and killed it, every so called R and B song now has a guest rapper or basically is rap/shit hop (Nicki Minaj/Chris Brown/Rhianna/Beyonce), and then its the shit that hits the charts with all the drum machines and samples and phoned in beats and machine pumping of beats.

.

Plus most of the real R&B is still there, just that it never makes the charts and remains underground to be enjoyed by a more mature audience, the audience that buys Chris Brown will not listen to Gary Clark Jnr, Questlove or Ellen Kane. I mean look at Prince R and B artist, no hits for years, but albums which are classics.

.

Yeah blame teenagers, shit hop, drum machines and the dumbing down, but I would also blame the obsession with sex and dancing that took over from 1973 when we had songs about trucking and get down with the wah wah sex beat. This changed to sexualised R an B like Jodeci in the 90s and by the 2000s it was bitch this and that.

Adorecream said:

Shit hop intervened and killed it, every so called R and B song now has a guest rapper or basically is rap/shit hop (Nicki Minaj/Chris Brown/Rhianna/Beyonce), and then its the shit that hits the charts with all the drum machines and samples and phoned in beats and machine pumping of beats.

.

Plus most of the real R&B is still there, just that it never makes the charts and remains underground to be enjoyed by a more mature audience, the audience that buys Chris Brown will not listen to Gary Clark Jnr, Questlove or Ellen Kane. I mean look at Prince R and B artist, no hits for years, but albums which are classics.

.

Yeah blame teenagers, shit hop, drum machines and the dumbing down, but I would also blame the obsession with sex and dancing that took over from 1973 when we had songs about trucking and get down with the wah wah sex beat. This changed to sexualised R an B like Jodeci in the 90s and by the 2000s it was bitch this and that.

Welcome to this thread, Adore

You can plot the change, I have a 8cd box set of Hitsville USA, which has a great collection of some 200 songs that made the Motown sound between 1959 and 1992 (It dates from 1993).

.

It starts with Barret Strong's Money from 1959, in which Berry Gordy wrote the song and for once put it on his own label and it was a small hit. It ends with Boyz To Men's end of the road, a massive hit in late 1992.

.

The music up to 1966/67 is dancing, great pop and melodic R and B and a few jazzier and bluesy cats like Shorty Long and Junior Walker. The period 1964 to 1967 is the golden age of the Supremes, the Four Tops, Vandellas and Tempts amongst others. This is classic 1960s Motown.

.

Starting 1967 to 1970 you get a bit more psychedelia (The Temptations went all Psychedelic around 1969 and in 1970 did Message soul) and Bubblegum, but more fortunately you get a lot of consciousness message soul like Whats going on, Ball of Confusion, WAR, Its a shame etc. To me 1970/71 is their apex with the great message soul and positivity, along with the seamless bubblegum pop of the Jackson 5. This is the age of Stevie, Marvin, The Tempts, Edwin Starr, Undisputed truth, The Originals (Baby I'm for real and the Bells), the Spinners (It's a shame) and then it carries on into 1972 as Stevie really comes alive.

.

Then 1973, what do we get Lets get it on, Keep on Trucking and they are great songs, but a total rip off of the later Isaac Hayes/Barry White bedroom soul of the mid 1970s, that leads on into disco. Don't get me wrong I LOVE this stuff, but the topics are all about fucking and making love, the positivity of conciousness and uplifting message soul is gone and only Stevie seems to be carrying its flame into the 1980s. Overnight lines like "We got to take the power to the brothers on the streets" changed to "Baby, we can't help but make it - (Wang wang!)"

.

I mean I am sure around January 1973, a memo circulated around record label offices "Guys some of this message soul and civil rights sounding music is really getting to us, it's too hard hitting and depressing, why not encourage Marvin Gaye and the Temptations, along with the Miracles, Isaac Hayes to start singing about fucking and rooting, tell them we will put a funky drum machine and bass guitar beat, and songs about partying and having a good time, I hear about the world's got a change and I am soul brother number one again I am going to scream. Make them get soulful in the bedroom instead like all those silly pimp movies we are watching lately, seriously get them to record their new album about getting down and groovy, make them wear the biggest afros possible, wider flares and lapels and gold chains with zodiac medallions".

.

Plus all this music is merely drum beats, wah wah guitars and bass licks around singing, pre 1973 music may have been a lot of stand up singing, but at the very least with pre 1973 Motown the Funk brothers were behind every act and many other R and B groups had at least one cat on guitar, a bassist, a drummer and maybe another guitar or two and some percussion (Lead singers often need maracas too) and then everyone was singing and stepping except maybe the drummer (Another reason Prince was ahead of everyone else).

.

Musical integrity fell further with the disco and 1980s sounds, still great singing and songs, but silly sex lyrics were coming in and by 1988 the whole machine pumped new jack beat was coming in. Motown really fell off in the later 70s with only Stevie and Marvin being the main stars, the Tempts and Four tops were still good but low down Motowns list of prioirties and relegated into oldies acts. Now it was all Rick James, Switch and Teena Marie along with many one hit wonder acts like Switch and Bonnie Pointer. They went from leading pop and R and B music in the 1960s, to merely being trend followers in the 1970s. They never had the disco success of labels like Casablanca and RSO, same in the 1980s, when there were no credible Motown ripoffs of the Michael Jackson or Prince sound (Unless you include Georgio). The music from 1986 to 1993 is okay in parts but acts like Johnny Gill, ABC and Shanice merely sounded like oyther New Jack swing acts of the period and who even remembers the Boys or the Good Girls. Boyz II Men were a good signing and saved Motown's ass at the time. They were probably the best R&B act of the 1990s, and kept it nice and clean, they never called women bitches or went on about rims and champagne.

.

I will leave my comments there for post 1993 output.

[Edited 1/24/16 16:24pm]

Cinny said:

MickyDolenz said:

I like 7/11, but don't really care about the video. Here's one of my fave DC songs.

In my opinion, "Bills Bills Bills" and "No Scrubs" are the exact point when R&B ventured past the point of no return: ignorant lyrics and bastard tracks that sold way too much for the good of the genre.

Totally agreeance, Destiny's child were the beginning of mall ass type songs. Look at those defiant poses, they look they are ready to snap their fingers and go "Uh huh!", and songs about paying bills, telling their man to look after them because they independent ladies.

.

Beyonce in general can be blamed for the death of credible R&B, the lyrics are dumb and so are the blinged out beats and drum machines. Plus are they wearing hair hats there?

it's all over....I"ve accepted the fact

the only way this stuff is gonna get corrected is the truth as to what happened, how it happened and why it happened

until then, it's a wrap

Scorp said:

it's all over....I"ve accepted the fact

the only way this stuff is gonna get corrected is the truth as to what happened, how it happened and why it happened

until then, it's a wrap

It's music, it's not that serious. It's not like poisoned water or something. Any kind of music can be found. The majority of people do not even listen to the kind of radio stations that hit singles come from. Complaining about Top 40 radio is like people suing McDonald's for making them fat. It's not the job of a hit radio station to play music that a few people like, but to get advertising dollars. Major advertisers like Pepsi want to reach the most people, so the radio station has to play music that appeals to as many people as possible. Money (payola) can't make people like a song, no matter how much it's played. If that was the case, polka bands would get big hits. I'm pretty sure if a Mollie B or Jimmy Sturr song comes on after Rihanna or Adele, the majority of listeners will turn the station, which is not good for ratings, which means the advertiser might take their business to a competitor. College radio is run by pledges/donations, and are not dependent on business advertising. The listeners are fewer, and are not run by Clear Channel. So they can play niche music. Top 40 R&B is like a multiplex showing Star Wars and Marvel Comics movies, not an art film theater showing movies that is of interest to a small audience. People who listen to Gregorian chants, swamp rock, barbershop quartets, or opera have never depended on Top 40 radio. They find their music just fine.

MickyDolenz said:

Scorp said:

it's all over....I"ve accepted the fact

the only way this stuff is gonna get corrected is the truth as to what happened, how it happened and why it happened

until then, it's a wrap

It's music, it's not that serious. It's not like poisoned water or something. Any kind of music can be found. The majority of people do not even listen to the kind of radio stations that hit singles come from. Complaining about Top 40 radio is like people suing McDonald's for making them fat. It's not the job of a hit radio station to play music that a few people like, but to get advertising dollars. Major advertisers like Pepsi want to reach the most people, so the radio station has to play music that appeals to as many people as possible. Money (payola) can't make people like a song, no matter how much it's played. If that was the case, polka bands would get big hits. I'm pretty sure if a Mollie B or Jimmy Sturr song comes on after Rihanna or Adele, the majority of listeners will turn the station, which is not good for ratings, which means the advertiser might take their business to a competitor. College radio is run by pledges/donations, and are not dependent on business advertising. The listeners are fewer, and are not run by Clear Channel. So they can play niche music. Top 40 R&B is like a multiplex showing Star Wars and Marvel Comics movies, not an art film theater showing movies that is of interest to a small audience. People who listen to Gregorian chants, swamp rock, barbershop quartets, or opera have never depended on Top 40 radio. They find their music just fine.

it's more than just music when considering what made that music possible, and when you watch an entire culture being exploited and wiped away in the process where you see the huge void that exists

and for the past quarter century when u are of that culture and even when you are in position to understand what went wrong and knowing that the generation who follows have been led astray not really understanding that they have....I'm speaking as a whole and not regarding each individual person

or when you see how behaviors have changed overtime and u can see the indoctrination that has taken place

I used to complain all the time about how today's music sucks,but then I realized something: I can just simply listen to the old music from the past Let the young kids go out and buy crap like Drake and Beyonce.....no problem.....I'll be listening to Curtis Mayfied,Earth Wind and Fire and Stevie Wonder.95% of the time,I'm listening to music from the 70s anyway.Right now,I couldn't even tell you what's popular in R&B music right now.The only thing I'm focusing on is remasters of those old albums that I love so much,lol.

Scorp said:

or when you see how behaviors have changed overtime and u can see the indoctrination that has taken place

What behaviors is that? People are doing the same thing they've always done throughout time, just with newer technology and gadgets. If popular music causes behavior, how did the Salem Witch Trials or slavery happen? There were no rap records, movies, video games, etc. hundreds of years ago. What influenced outlaws like Billy The Kid? No action movies or NWA during his day. People complain about rap lyrics but not the Shakespere stories that they have kids read in school. There's all kind of violence, suicide, and incest going on in Shakespere and that was written hundreds of years ago. It's in the bible too. Hundreds of years ago different monarchies used torture devices and there were the holy wars. The entire United States was founded by stealing land from the native population and then killing millions of them off.

SoulAlive said:

Adorecream said:

Cinny said:

In my opinion, "Bills Bills Bills" and "No Scrubs" are the exact point when R&B ventured past the point of no return: ignorant lyrics and bastard tracks that sold way too much for the good of the genre.

Totally agreeance, Destiny's child were the beginning of mall ass type songs. Look at those defiant poses, they look they are ready to snap their fingers and go "Uh huh!", and songs about paying bills, telling their man to look after them because they independent ladies.

.

Beyonce in general can be blamed for the death of credible R&B, the lyrics are dumb and so are the blinged out beats and drum machines. Plus are they wearing hair hats there?

I knew someone would agree with me on the "tipping point", because I feel it in my heart. Of course there were predated examples but they weren't the tipping point. Clear Channel also embraced those tunes and made them go POP. That had a huge, irreversible influence on music to come.

You are complaining about something that has happened over and over again and it will keep on happening. What's the difference between soul and r&b?.

Scorp said: