MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Sales of Dancing on the Ceiling mostly occured in the first month. It, along with MJ's Bad and Boston's Third Stage were the first three albums in Billboard history to sell 3 million copies within the first month.

So that means it only sold another million units after the first month tally. Can't Slow Down was a massive album that sold over 10 million copies in America. The anticipation for it's follow-up, just like with Bad, was enormous.

As for your talk about bands selling out, you oughtta include Heart as their songs in the 80s sounded nothing like the 70s classics like Magic Man or Barricuda.

Did Heart really sell out though or is it just because they went pop?

Their music became more commercialized and the sisters were marketed as Sex Kittens, especially Nancy Wilson. If that isn't selling out, what is?

No such thing as selling out, other than selling out a concert. If performers didn't want to sell, they wouldn't bother getting a record deal or doing concerts for a paying audience. Even steet musicians want people to throw money in their cup. If they just want to play music for "art", they can just do it at home for a hobby.

Scorp said:

Cant Slow Down was a brilliant album James Carmichael did an amazimg job producing that record

He produced Dancing On The Ceiling too.

MickyDolenz said:

No such thing as selling out, other than selling out a concert. If performers didn't want to sell, they wouldn't bother getting a record deal or doing concerts for a paying audience. Even steet musicians want people to throw money in their cup. If they just want to play music for "art", they can just do it at home for a hobby.

Good music will sell, at least during the 70s and 80s. The problem with Heart is that looking at their videos from the 80s, it was like music executives saw the sisters as products and made them look like skanks, pimping Nancy Wilson just to get teenage boys to buy their album. By 1986-87, it was more about the image than the music for many talented acts.

Jefferson Starship became much more Pop oriented in the 80s as well. It's like listening to two different bands.

There's a difference between coming out with great music that becomes a hit and making an album with the intention of generating hits. That's why Dancing on the Ceiling and Bad will never compare to Can't Slow Down and Thriller.

Yes, music is a business first and foremost but taking shortcuts to create cheesy videos and songs like Ballerina Girl or Love Will Conquer All didn't do Lionel anything but end his career prematurely.

MichaelJackson5 said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Lionel anything but end his career prematurely.

Lionel's career hit a slump because he had vocal polyps and couldn't sing for several years. By the time he returned in the early 1990s, hip hop & new jack swing had taken over. So he got airplay more on adult contemporary radio and less so on Top 40 and R&B. He didn't really fit with the Geto Boys, BBD, Another Bad Creation, C+C Music Factory, NWA, Color Me Badd, etc. He did get a #1 R&B hit with this

[Edited 11/28/15 18:00pm]

MotownSubdivision said:

Lionel's personal life leaking into a pop-culture increasingly relying on image and him not dropping an album for 10 years subsequently after DotC hurt him more than the album did.

I don't think anybody cared about Brenda beating him up. Motley Crue were involved in things like Vince getting in a car accident that killed someone and it didn't hurt the group's career. What Lionel did was minor compared to people like Ozzy Osbourne and George Jones, who manged to keep long careers.

To be honest,I think that when he cheated on his wife is when his career began to suffer It ruined the perfect image that he had.Remember,this is the guy who wrote some amazing love songs like "Endless Love" and "Truly"! Cheating on Brenda didn't sit too well with many people.lol.

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Lionel anything but end his career prematurely.

Lionel's career hit a slump because he had vocal polyps and couldn't sing for several years. By the time he returned in the early 1990s, hip hop & new jack swing had taken over. So he got airplay more on adult contemporary radio and less so on Top 40 and R&B. He didn't really fit with the Geto Boys, BBD, Another Bad Creation, C+C Music Factory, NWA, Color Me Badd, etc. He did get a #1 R&B hit with this

[Edited 11/28/15 18:00pm]

There was still room in the early 90s for crooners and sappy love songs....how else can you explain the success of Michael Bolton or Celine Dion? Celine's first major hit in America was Where Does My Heart Beat Now in 1991.

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Good music will sell, at least during the 70s and 80s. The problem with Heart is that looking at their videos from the 80s, it was like music executives saw the sisters as products and made them look like skanks, pimping Nancy Wilson just to get teenage boys to buy their album. By 1986-87, it was more about the image than the music for many talented acts.

Jefferson Starship became much more Pop oriented in the 80s as well. It's like listening to two different bands.

There's a difference between coming out with great music that becomes a hit and making an album with the intention of generating hits. That's why Dancing on the Ceiling and Bad will never compare to Can't Slow Down and Thriller.

Yes, music is a business first and foremost but taking shortcuts to create cheesy videos and songs like Ballerina Girl or Love Will Conquer All didn't do Lionel anything but end his career prematurely.

Thriller and Can't Slow Down and Thriller weren't made with the intention of generating hits? Every album Michael put out was made with the intention of generating hits. Every pop album is made with the intention of generating hits. Shoot, the albums of every notable act in 1983 to 1984 were made with the intention of generating hits, even Purple Rain and Born in the U.S.A.. Some of the greatest/ most iconic albums of all time besides the two you mentioned were made with the intention of generating hits. An album meant to generate hits doesn't necessarily mean it's an album with the sole purpose of commercial success or that it's a bad album for that reason. Dancing on the Ceiling was still greatly successful even if it sold much less than Can't Slow Down (ironic that you say MJ's and Lionel's most commercially successful projects weren't made to produce hits) and as cheesy as the song and album may have been, it hardly "ended his career prematurely" when he's still around today as a relevant and successful touring act. Lionel's personal life leaking into a pop-culture increasingly relying on image and him not dropping an album for 10 years subsequently after DotC hurt him more than the album did. [Edited 11/28/15 17:28pm]

Thriller had more soul than Bad. There are no songs such as Lady in my Life or Human Nature on Bad...maybe Liberian Girl to a limited extent. Bad had no soul, no R&B elements.

Sure, MJ wanted hits with Thriller and OTW but with Bad his goal was to sell 100 million copies of it. Once you start setting insane sales targets, you are making an album with the exclusive goal of generating hits for that period in time which is why Bad sounds late 80ish while Thriller still sounds fresh today. Instead of focusing on his face, which looked great in 1984, MJ should have spent more time writing stronger songs than Speed Demon, Smooth Criminal and Bad.

Lionel Richie has recovered after releasing Tuskagee but there was a period of 20 to 25 years when he wasn't very prominent. But you're right that the hiatus hurt him as Bolton was taking his place in the 90s while Celine Dion dominated ballads for most of the decade. Hell, Phil Collins was still generating successful ballads up til the early 90s.

Still, releasing watered down drivel like Ballerina Girl and Love Will Conquer All, songs that wouldn't have been good enough to make the B-side of singles from Can't Slow Down didn't help him leave a good impression with his audience before his hiatus.

Lionel deserved better with his 2001 release, Angel, which is a great song. Just too late in his career for a Top 40 smash.

MichaelJackson5 said:

There was still room in the early 90s for crooners and sappy love songs....how else can you explain the success of Michael Bolton or Celine Dion? Celine's first major hit in America was Where Does My Heart Beat Now in 1991.

Lionel had 2 Top 10 hits on the AC chart from Back To Front and none on the main Top 40. Lionel was played on R&B, AC, and pop radio in the 1980s just like Billy Ocean & Whitney Houston was. Celine wasn't played on R&B radio and she was also on adult contemporary radio, a different format, which has some influence on sales like country radio did for Brooks & Dunn, Billy Ray Cyrus, and Garth Brooks. People who listen to AC stations don't have to worry about hearing Snoop Dogg, Kris Kross, Soundgarden, and Technotronic. Michael Bolton was already popular in the late 1980s. Others like Kenny Loggins, Peter Cetera, Don Henley, & Billy Ocean popularity was dying down by the early 1990s. So was the sales of Hall & Oates who were doing a more AC light rock sound (ig. So Close, Don't Hold Back Your Love) around that time and was collaborating with Jon Bon Jovi. Some acts can sell albums without a lot of Top 40 airplay, like Yanni, Metallica, or those Gregorian chant albums.

MichaelJackson5 said:

Still, releasing watered down drivel like Ballerina Girl and Love Will Conquer All, songs that wouldn't have been good enough to make the B-side of singles from Can't Slow Down didn't help him leave a good impression with his audience before his hiatus.

I like Ballerina Girl. What's the difference in Ballerina Girl and the ballads Gloria Estefan was having hits with in the late 1980s (ig. I'll Do Anything For You) when Lionel was gone. Same with Whitney Houston. Glam metal bands like Poison, White Lion, and Europe were getting hits with power ballads like Carrie, When The Children Cry, & Every Rose Has Its Thorn. There were also light rock acts like Bruce Hornsby & The Range and Mike + The Mechanics who were popular. New Kids On The Block were getting Top 10 hits with songs like Hanging Tough & Cover Girl and they are still around and had some popular tours in recent years.

SoulAlive said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

People who talk about Lionel changing his style must haven't heard the Commodores records after he left, especially the ones with JD Nicholas. They're not much different than Lionel's 1980s music and maybe more pop. Their biggest hit was Nightshift, which is not funk at all. These are from their 1st post-Lionel album in 1983, the same year as Can't Slow Down and 2 years before Dancing On The Ceiling.

There's also the New Jack version of Brick House in 1993.

MotownSubdivision said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Thriller had more soul than Bad. There are no songs such as Lady in my Life or Human Nature on Bad...maybe Liberian Girl to a limited extent. Bad had no soul, no R&B elements.

Sure, MJ wanted hits with Thriller and OTW but with Bad his goal was to sell 100 million copies of it. Once you start setting insane sales targets, you are making an album with the exclusive goal of generating hits for that period in time which is why Bad sounds late 80ish while Thriller still sounds fresh today. Instead of focusing on his face, which looked great in 1984, MJ should have spent more time writing stronger songs than Speed Demon, Smooth Criminal and Bad.

Lionel Richie has recovered after releasing Tuskagee but there was a period of 20 to 25 years when he wasn't very prominent. But you're right that the hiatus hurt him as Bolton was taking his place in the 90s while Celine Dion dominated ballads for most of the decade. Hell, Phil Collins was still generating successful ballads up til the early 90s.

Still, releasing watered down drivel like Ballerina Girl and Love Will Conquer All, songs that wouldn't have been good enough to make the B-side of singles from Can't Slow Down didn't help him leave a good impression with his audience before his hiatus.

Lionel deserved better with his 2001 release, Angel, which is a great song. Just too late in his career for a Top 40 smash.

Thriller was made with the intention of being the greatest selling album of all time which in order to be that, had to generate hits. It's singles that drive album sales, especially at the time. Bad is no less timeless than Thriller despite its dated sound. Being one of the most popular albums of all time definitely helps his case but its songs sound no more out place today than they did in 1987. Also, Bad is an MJ album, how does it not have soul? Even if you want to say that DotC wasn't a good album to go on a hiatus with, it's hardly the cancer to his career you make it out to be. Lionel is still a successful international touring act, selling out shows worldwide to this day. If an album like DotC was enough to kill his career, he wouldn't be touring and making money doing it.

Thriller was never made with the intention of becoming the biggest selling album in the history of music. Find me one quote from MJ or Q that alludes to such an intention before it's release. Thriller blew up because of great singles which showed the public an older, mature Michael Jackson. Also, the Motown 25 debut of the moonwalk catapulted Thriller sales to the stratosphere along with the iconic video for the title track.

Bad had none of Thriller's magic. It's a decent album and sold 6-8 million in America but that's not what MJ had in mind. There was no Human Nature, Lady in my Life, Billie Jean or Wanna Be Startin Something on Bad. Instead, we got childish songs like Speed Demon, Smooth Criminal and a title track that felt incomplete. It's as if Michael Jackson regressed. I was expecting a cinematic masterpiece for Smooth Criminal's video and not some video aimed at young kids in the 5th grade where MJ transforms into a car. Bad is one of the most popular albums worldwide, but in the US, it is not among the biggest sellers of that era or even today, after his album surge in 2009 and the publicity of Bad25. It still hasn't managed to sell 10 million copies in America.

MJ was a big international act even up to the late 1990s but in America his sales were hitting rock bottom. Last single from HIStory was Stranger in Moscow and it peaked at 91 on the Hot 100 charts.

Dancing on the Ceiling was a major disappointment to fans of Can't Slow Down. And despite selling 4 million copies in America, it sold the first 3 million in it's first month due to anticipation. Bad achieved the same feat. That means half-baked songs like Ballerina Girl and Love Will Conquer All could only manage to push one million albums in the US market.

It's great that Lionel can sell out the O2 arena in England, but that's Europe where legacy acts last longer. MJ managed to sell out at the O2 50 times over but it didn't change his status in America.

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

There was still room in the early 90s for crooners and sappy love songs....how else can you explain the success of Michael Bolton or Celine Dion? Celine's first major hit in America was Where Does My Heart Beat Now in 1991.

Lionel had 2 Top 10 hits on the AC chart from Back To Front and none on the main Top 40. Lionel was played on R&B, AC, and pop radio in the 1980s just like Billy Ocean & Whitney Houston was. Celine wasn't played on R&B radio and she was also on adult contemporary radio, a different format, which has some influence on sales like country radio did for Brooks & Dunn, Billy Ray Cyrus, and Garth Brooks. People who listen to AC stations don't have to worry about hearing Snoop Dogg, Kris Kross, Soundgarden, and Technotronic. Michael Bolton was already popular in the late 1980s. Others like Kenny Loggins, Peter Cetera, Don Henley, & Billy Ocean popularity was dying down by the early 1990s. So was the sales of Hall & Oates who were doing a more AC light rock sound (ig. So Close, Don't Hold Back Your Love) around that time and was collaborating with Jon Bon Jovi. Some acts can sell albums without a lot of Top 40 airplay, like Yanni, Metallica, or those Gregorian chant albums.

Loggins, Cetera, Henley, Ocean, Hall & Oates were good acts but they never achieved the level of success with any of their albums like MJ did with Thriller and Lionel with Can't Slow Down. In fact, Loggins was only generating hit songs from Motion Picture Soundtracks. His own albums sales are a footnote.

Keep in mind that in the mid 1980s, MJ and Lionel were the two of three biggest black male singers in pop music history along with Prince. After MJ racked up 8 Grammys in 1984, Lionel racked up a bunch in 1985. Lionel was a superstar by this point. It's why he worked with MJ on We Are The World.

And that shows just how poorly crafted Dancin' on the Ceiling was. Singles from the album aren't in the same league as his previous work. We're talking about a man who has 3 of the biggest singles in the history of American pop music.

http://www.billboard.com/charts/greatest-hot-100-singles

This man was meant for greater things than just being an Adult Contemporary artist in the 90s. The last two singles off DotC:Deep River Woman and Se La managed to peak at 71 and 20 on the American charts. Dancing on the Ceiling changed his career trajectory and in the worst way possible.

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Still, releasing watered down drivel like Ballerina Girl and Love Will Conquer All, songs that wouldn't have been good enough to make the B-side of singles from Can't Slow Down didn't help him leave a good impression with his audience before his hiatus.

I like Ballerina Girl. What's the difference in Ballerina Girl and the ballads Gloria Estefan was having hits with in the late 1980s (ig. I'll Do Anything For You) when Lionel was gone. Same with Whitney Houston. Glam metal bands like Poison, White Lion, and Europe were getting hits with power ballads like Carrie, When The Children Cry, & Every Rose Has Its Thorn. There were also light rock acts like Bruce Hornsby & The Range and Mike + The Mechanics who were popular. New Kids On The Block were getting Top 10 hits with songs like Hanging Tough & Cover Girl and they are still around and had some popular tours in recent years.

All the songs you mentioned are stronger than Ballerina Girl. They don't sound like they were written in a hotel room napkin within an hour. When The Children Cry is a deep song about the evils of war while Ballerina Girl sound like a jingle for a Hallmark commercial.

MichaelJackson5 said:

All the songs you mentioned are stronger than Ballerina Girl. They don't sound like they were written in a hotel room napkin within an hour. When The Children Cry is a deep song about the evils of war while Ballerina Girl sound like a jingle for a Hallmark commercial.

That's your opinion, not a fact. What's deep about Hangin' Tough? "Just get on the floor and do the New Kids dance".

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Comparing one of music's greatest writers to a boy band doesn't do Lionel any justice.

I'm not comparing anybody. You implied that songs need deep lyrics to become a hit, be popular, or sell a lot. That has never been the case. Vanilla Ice's To The Extreme album sold over 11 million copies in the US which is more than Can't Slow Down. Billy Ray Cyrus debut album sold almost 10 million in the US and Achy Breaky Heart was a big hit single. Without the success of Billy Ray, Miley wouldn't be a star today. Songs with simple lyrics like Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep (Mac & Katie Kissoon), The Twist (Chubby Checker), What Did The Fox Say, and many others were hits in the US. KC & The Sunshine Band songs didn't have any deep meaning, they made party music. Look at the hits of the 2000s. Lil Wayne has charted more on the Top 100 than anyone else. Wait by The Ying Yang Twings was a hit and it's literally whispering over a beat and fingersnaps. There's ringtone songs that have become hits too such as Laffy Taffy, My White Tee, & Pretty Boy Swag. 7/11 by Beyonce is her saying things like "put your hands in the air" & "man it feels like rolling dice" over and over and it has over 200 million views on Youtube. Turn Down For What doesn't really have any lyrics other than Lil Jon saying the title and it the Top 5 on the pop chart.

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Different demographics bro. The 10 million who purchased Can't Slow Down are not the same ones who bought KNOTB albums or Vanilla Ice. They were the ones who supported Celine Dion in the 90s. Teenyboppers who bought 11 million copies of To The Extreme were never Lionel's audience. As for music from 2000 onward, why even go there. Music started sucking from that point onward.

It doesn't matter who bought the records. Probably not many people all bought Celine Dion, Ace Of Base, Garth Brooks, Pearl Jam, Limp Biskit, & Dr Dre, but they all sold a lot in the 1990s, and that's all that matters. Lionel Richie & Whitney Houston fans were more likely to be into Celine than a Vanilla Ice fan. They might like Boyz II Men, TLC, C+C Music Factory, and Marky Mark instead or even NWA, since Vanilla Ice was initially popular with many hip hop fans until people found out he wasn't really from the streets and 3rd Base made that Pop Goes The Weasel video. According to Willie D from the Geto Boys, Vanilla Ice used to battle rap in clubs before he got a deal, but Willie always beat Ice in the contests. Willie D is no teen idol, so there had to have been a hip hop audience at the places they were battling in.

MickyDolenz said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

MickyDolenz said:

It doesn't matter who bought the records. Probably not many people all bought Celine Dion, Ace Of Base, Garth Brooks, Pearl Jam, Limp Biskit, & Dr Dre, but they all sold a lot in the 1990s, and that's all that matters. Lionel Richie & Whitney Houston fans were more likely to be into Celine than a Vanilla Ice fan. They might like Boyz II Men, TLC, C+C Music Factory, and Marky Mark instead or even NWA, since Vanilla Ice was initially popular with many hip hop fans until people found out he wasn't really from the streets and 3rd Base made that Pop Goes The Weasel video. According to Willie D from the Geto Boys, Vanilla Ice used to battle rap in clubs before he got a deal, but Willie always beat Ice in the contests. Willie D is no teen idol, so there had to have been a hip hop audience at the places they were battling in.

Ice Ice Baby is barely music. People were liking Queen's Pressure just as the folks who bought 10 million copies of Please, Hammer Don't hurt Em were basically enjoying Super Freak again. Sampling has helped to destroy the music industry we knew and loved. Whitney Houston was still relevant to pop music until 1998 so there's no reason that Richie couldn't have continued enjoying pop success as well. While DotC put up okay sales numbers in America he lost a lot of respect in the process after that album.

absolutely

MichaelJackson5 said:

People were liking Queen's Pressure just as the folks who bought 10 million copies of Please, Hammer Don't hurt Em were basically enjoying Super Freak again. Sampling has helped to destroy the music industry we knew and loved.

Who's we? I'm a rap fan so I don't think that sampling ruined anything. None of Rick James albums sold anywhere near 10 million, so Hammer's album was more successful than Street Songs, and Rick also made a lot of money from the success of Hammer, even though Rick had to sue. After around this time samples had to be cleared, so an album like Paul's Boutique by the Beastie Boys would be too expensive to make after the law was passed.

.

You can go on Youtube today and compare the views of Superfreak and U Can't Touch This and one has way higher numbers. I never heard of Under Pressure until Ice Ice Baby was a big hit. Sampling makes some people go and seek out the original song, that in some cases were forgotten or obscure. Like Whitney Houston remade a lot of songs that were little known and people thought she released them first.

Superfreak: 15,232,040

U Can't Touch This: 188,727,644

Under Pressure: 37,569,086

Ice Ice Baby: 88,470,084