mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

Both mj and lisa had drama and she was in pain too. All that behaviour was a cry for help. They wanted different things and equally hurt each other, it happens everyday but it happened in the public eye Mj himself acknowledged in moonwalk he was wearing the black glove during off the wall days. One of the jacksons variety show performance also has mj wearing a very similar suit to smooth criminal with gold in it, a tribute to acts before his time and revisited beautifully in smooth criminal. Anything that became mainstream of his even in later years , we fans knew about. What was new during msg shows, he had done on victory, dangerous and history tours. New fans got excited over rehearsal footage on this is it, I already knew the tours, shows, rehearsals online for years etc. I get what you're saying about cultural appropriation generally speaking , but also learned to have some compassion about it even if confused at times by him. Still loved him and wanted him to be alright, knew he didn't really want to do this is it and also felt people pleasing was a huge factor from the second I heard the words he's gone. [Edited 11/8/15 16:12pm] [Edited 11/8/15 16:15pm]

I am not denying that MJ was not perfect in the marriage but I do think Lisa's behaviour after the divorce was very vindictive and disrespectful (there are no excuses for that) while MJ moved on and was classy about their seperation by saying nothing. During the trial, she made ambigious comments that implied she saw MJ molesting children or at least the thought was possible. Now I am sorry but that is beyond typical bitter exes (talk) and that is just someone that is going out there way to slander someone. She also called her relationship with michael the biggest mistake of her life and lied about what went on during relationship. There are even quotes from her where she is still bad mouthing him up until 2008!!! I am sorry but that is not typical. Lisa is a very fake, immature and vile woman. You don't do things like that after divorcing someone almost 20 years ago and then once he dies she pretends she never tried to slander him. Michael did not hurt Lisa in that way. He never disrespected her after the divorce or spoke ill about her like she did.. Michael and Lisa were not compatible and their union was not based on true love. Michael did the right thing when he did not take her back.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:25pm]

I can only hope she learned her lesson though it was too late. Now she's left with another michael husband and probably thinks of michael #1 everytime she utters his name LOL that must hurt. I didn't like how she was saying she thought it was extortion or whatever that was, but I think he tried turning to her during the trial and she had let go. I get why she did cause the people around him made his life messy, his management, team etc. were so toxic, though I know that doesn't justify not defending him against that when she knew what was down in 93'

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said:

Although MJ was not perfect in the relationship, I don't like her because she mislead him and bribed him with children. She promised him children before they got married (knowing he would not marry her otherwise) and went back on her word. She also did a number of shady things herself in the relationship such as vacationing with her ex-husband and lied a lot. The thing is though while I do agree MJ was wrong for accepting Debbie's crazy offer, Lisa could have had mjs children (if she wanted too) she obviously did not want too so I don't see why she would be upset about that when she knew mj wanted a family in the begining. They both agreed that they wanted the same thing before the marriage but she lied about having kids once they got married which is why the marriage ultimately ended (thats the truth, which mj said even on the tapes despite her lies). A lot of what she had to say after the marriage was very disrespectful, hurtful and not things you would say about someone , "you once loved" I don't believe she ever loved him and I think the marriage was out of convience/timing. The truth is, Lisa became bitter because MJ did not take her back but that still is no reason to say the awful things she said about him considering MJ did not say not one thing about her after the divorce. She also lies alot about what went on in the relationship and never takes responsibility of her actions and what she did.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:10pm]

See....that's that bullshit mj fans pull sometimes man. Now I'm not personally attacking you because you aren't the first with this argument but this arguement irriates me. Michael Jackson is a man, a very sweet kind gentle man HOWEVER he still a man who's very used to getting his way automatically. Have we forgotten what they both risked or the fact Michael came to HER.... a married woman with 2 kids? They weren't together long nor married long but put yourself in her shoes. You're married with 2 kids and a great source of income (via Elvis estate and other business ventures ) and you meet a troubled man like Michael...hes charming and gosh darn loveable however he gets caught up in a terrible scandal of what's really extortion but its still a horrendous title being put on him. He comes to YOU (hence the Superwoman complex ) during his hardest times and eventually this affair becomes intimate and you help ruin your long marriage and now YOUR once stable life is in shambles.....you see where I'm going.... Lisa already had 2 young children of her own that she now had to explain their new environment and circumstances AND deal with these obvious vultures who want to hurt her husband AND now her lovable yet irritating husband is carrying a fucking baby doll to guilt trip her because her uterus just isn't fast enough for his taste. AND to put the cherry on top another woman offers to do her wifely job because she's not fast enough to produce that baby (that goddamn Jezebel ) and her dear husband takes it without so much as a mention to her and mysteriously leaves her for weeks with no contact but expects her to be happy for the cameras on the 1995 MTV awards. Oh and to findout after their affair FINALLY ended in the early 2000s that his mistress actually miscarried a baby back when they were still together.... Take the LMP and MJ away from it and it's a troubled marriage. She's a bitch yes, but don't act like shes the Mistress of Evil because his 2 stepchildren weren't enough. Plus all due respect to his kids (whom I adore ) I'm glad those didn't have kids, the timing was wrong, they had a lot of pressing matters to take care of before bringing another life in the shit storm that was his life at the time.

This is what I was referring to. Double standards generally speaking. He abandoned her for weeks and so did she. I don't care who did what first, it's done and it doesn't make me love michael less. The two bonded, but in a context where there was a lot of chaos happening (in michael's life) and eventually it caught up to both of them. I think it's selfish to have children if you don't want to, so I can't fault lisa for the birth control just as I wouldn't fault any woman, the two of them just wanted different things later one from the initial attraction, and maybe what she wanted in the beginning changed later on.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:46pm]

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said:

Although MJ was not perfect in the relationship, I don't like her because she mislead him and bribed him with children. She promised him children before they got married (knowing he would not marry her otherwise) and went back on her word. She also did a number of shady things herself in the relationship such as vacationing with her ex-husband and lied a lot. The thing is though while I do agree MJ was wrong for accepting Debbie's crazy offer, Lisa could have had mjs children (if she wanted too) she obviously did not want too so I don't see why she would be upset about that when she knew mj wanted a family in the begining. They both agreed that they wanted the same thing before the marriage but she lied about having kids once they got married which is why the marriage ultimately ended (thats the truth, which mj said even on the tapes despite her lies). A lot of what she had to say after the marriage was very disrespectful, hurtful and not things you would say about someone , "you once loved" I don't believe she ever loved him and I think the marriage was out of convience/timing. The truth is, Lisa became bitter because MJ did not take her back but that still is no reason to say the awful things she said about him considering MJ did not say not one thing about her after the divorce. She also lies alot about what went on in the relationship and never takes responsibility of her actions and what she did.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:10pm]

See....that's that bullshit mj fans pull sometimes man. Now I'm not personally attacking you because you aren't the first with this argument but this arguement irriates me. Michael Jackson is a man, a very sweet kind gentle man HOWEVER he still a man who's very used to getting his way automatically. Have we forgotten what they both risked or the fact Michael came to HER.... a married woman with 2 kids? They weren't together long nor married long but put yourself in her shoes. You're married with 2 kids and a great source of income (via Elvis estate and other business ventures ) and you meet a troubled man like Michael...hes charming and gosh darn loveable however he gets caught up in a terrible scandal of what's really extortion but its still a horrendous title being put on him. He comes to YOU (hence the Superwoman complex ) during his hardest times and eventually this affair becomes intimate and you help ruin your long marriage and now YOUR once stable life is in shambles.....you see where I'm going.... Lisa already had 2 young children of her own that she now had to explain their new environment and circumstances AND deal with these obvious vultures who want to hurt her husband AND now her lovable yet irritating husband is carrying a fucking baby doll to guilt trip her because her uterus just isn't fast enough for his taste. AND to put the cherry on top another woman offers to do her wifely job because she's not fast enough to produce that baby (that goddamn Jezebel ) and her dear husband takes it without so much as a mention to her and mysteriously leaves her for weeks with no contact but expects her to be happy for the cameras on the 1995 MTV awards. Oh and to findout after their affair FINALLY ended in the early 2000s that his mistress actually miscarried a baby back when they were still together.... Take the LMP and MJ away from it and it's a troubled marriage. She's a bitch yes, but don't act like shes the Mistress of Evil because his 2 stepchildren weren't enough. Plus all due respect to his kids (whom I adore ) I'm glad those didn't have kids, the timing was wrong, they had a lot of pressing matters to take care of before bringing another life in the shit storm that was his life at the time.

See this is where you are wrong and this is also why most MJ fans don't like Lisa. Also, I can tell you are getting your opinions from unreliable sources and you are believing Lisas lying ass which right there makes your perspectives inaccurate. (No disrespect but it is what it is)

1. Michael did not chase nor did he pursue Lisa. Lisa is actually the one that pursued Michael (before AND after the divorce)and as soon as I find the receipt I will post it. Lisa was interested in starting a singing career. She wanted MJ to help her with her demo which she was shopping around. According to his manager at the time, MJ listened to her demo but did not think she could sing but Lisa demanded to meet with him in person anyway and from there they develop a friendship because Lisa was there for him during the first allegations. However, according to the manager, Lisa was the one that wanted to meet Michael and the one that was calling him arranging their meeting times which is how they meant in the beginning. They meant because SHE wanted help with her music career..... thats the truth. So...no Michael did not pursue her.

2. Michael was not having an affair with Lisa while married to Debbie. After Michael passed, Michael's ex- Rabbi release private tapes in which Michael says on the tapes that Lisa followed him around after the divorce in hopes to get back with him. He also says that he was not interested in getting back with her. He says and I quote "She wrote letters promising me 9 children after the divorce but my heart had closed and I close my mind of the entire situation". Michael ALSO says and I quote: "Lisa would hang around my mother in hopes to get back with me when she couldn't reach me" LISA's lying ass is the one that pursued Michael after the divorce. She lied to Oprah to make it seem as though it was a mutual union after those Rappi tapes came out. You can believe that lying bitch if you want but I don't believe her, I believe Michael because Michael has no reason to lie and did not say not one thing about her after the divorce. Receipts:

AlSO, LISA was the one that pursued MJ knowing she had 2 other small children with her first marriage. SHE is the one that pursued Michael while still married to her first husband. So please dont put it all on Michael like Michael just snatched her away from her husband. :lol:She was a grown woman with two kids and made the decision to pursue another man while married. She also promised Michael children before the marriage which was something they both agreed upon desite her one sided lies. I don't agree with MJ accepting Debbies crazy offer but can you hoenstly blame him? Here he was thinking his wife was going to bare his children since that was something she had promise and then she turns around and insist she doesnt want kids anymore which was something they both agreed before marriage. She lied and misled him. Your also giving her the benefit of the doubt which I dont agree with.

Something happened and she changed her mind and good on her cause they were falling apart and that would have been more stressful on their child. And mj was put through HELL cause of the allegations, if that's really true about the doll, that's so sad, my heart goes out to him :*( I really think after 93' he was traumatized, had trust issues, and he just wanted his own children for real that loved him for him and that was what sustained him for years, he was living for them and I'm glad he had that though he deserved to live longer and in peace. I can see how the doll thing comes off as manipulative but keeping in mind what he endured, he was so emotionally affected and understandbly so

[Edited 11/8/15 19:56pm]

alphastreet said:

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said: See....that's that bullshit mj fans pull sometimes man. Now I'm not personally attacking you because you aren't the first with this argument but this arguement irriates me. Michael Jackson is a man, a very sweet kind gentle man HOWEVER he still a man who's very used to getting his way automatically. Have we forgotten what they both risked or the fact Michael came to HER.... a married woman with 2 kids? They weren't together long nor married long but put yourself in her shoes. You're married with 2 kids and a great source of income (via Elvis estate and other business ventures ) and you meet a troubled man like Michael...hes charming and gosh darn loveable however he gets caught up in a terrible scandal of what's really extortion but its still a horrendous title being put on him. He comes to YOU (hence the Superwoman complex ) during his hardest times and eventually this affair becomes intimate and you help ruin your long marriage and now YOUR once stable life is in shambles.....you see where I'm going.... Lisa already had 2 young children of her own that she now had to explain their new environment and circumstances AND deal with these obvious vultures who want to hurt her husband AND now her lovable yet irritating husband is carrying a fucking baby doll to guilt trip her because her uterus just isn't fast enough for his taste. AND to put the cherry on top another woman offers to do her wifely job because she's not fast enough to produce that baby (that goddamn Jezebel ) and her dear husband takes it without so much as a mention to her and mysteriously leaves her for weeks with no contact but expects her to be happy for the cameras on the 1995 MTV awards. Oh and to findout after their affair FINALLY ended in the early 2000s that his mistress actually miscarried a baby back when they were still together.... Take the LMP and MJ away from it and it's a troubled marriage. She's a bitch yes, but don't act like shes the Mistress of Evil because his 2 stepchildren weren't enough. Plus all due respect to his kids (whom I adore ) I'm glad those didn't have kids, the timing was wrong, they had a lot of pressing matters to take care of before bringing another life in the shit storm that was his life at the time.

This is what I was referring to. Double standards generally speaking. He abandoned her for weeks and so did she. I don't care who did what first, it's done and it doesn't make me love michael less. The two bonded, but in a context where there was a lot of chaos happening (in michael's life) and eventually it caught up to both of them. I think it's selfish to have children if you don't want to, so I can't fault lisa for the birth control just as I wouldn't fault any woman, the two of them just wanted different things later one from the initial attraction, and maybe what she wanted in the beginning changed later on.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:46pm]

Maybe MJ would not have disappeared for 6 weeks if Lisa had not vacationed with her ex-husband without letting him know. The thing I notice about their relationship was that everything Lisa did.... Michael reacted to it.

Examples:

Lisa vacationing with her ex-husband

So Michael disappears for 6 weeks in retaliation (which Lisa even says herself to Oprah)

Lisa lying about having children

So Michael agrees to accept Debbies crazy offer once Lisa says she does not want kids.

Also, its quite clear their union was not based on true love and both had their agendas. IMO, Michael was more in love with the idea of starting a family and having kids then being with Lisa and I honestly believe Lisa was more interested in a singing career than being Michael because lets be honest.... if she really was in love with Michael and wanted kids she would have had them with MJ, period. She has a right to not to want to have kids if that is what she chooses. However, it is NOT right to mislead a man and to have him thinking you want kids when you really don't. They were just married for a little less than 2 years so it was pretty early. So if Lisa knew she did not want kids she should have told MJ that from the get go. Its quite clear she played him and only promised him that because she knew he would marry her. AGAIN, I am not saying that mj was perfect but I believe Lisa was more at fault because she based the relationship on a lie. I dont believe she ever intended on having kids with Michael. She even gloated after the divorce she was glad she did not have kids with him.

mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

This is what I was referring to. Double standards generally speaking. He abandoned her for weeks and so did she. I don't care who did what first, it's done and it doesn't make me love michael less. The two bonded, but in a context where there was a lot of chaos happening (in michael's life) and eventually it caught up to both of them. I think it's selfish to have children if you don't want to, so I can't fault lisa for the birth control just as I wouldn't fault any woman, the two of them just wanted different things later one from the initial attraction, and maybe what she wanted in the beginning changed later on.

[Edited 11/8/15 19:46pm]

Maybe MJ would not have disappeared for 6 weeks if Lisa had not vacationed with her ex-husband without letting him know. The thing I notice about their relationship was that everything Lisa did.... Michael reacted to it.

Examples:

Lisa vacationing with her ex-husband

So Michael disappears for 6 weeks in retaliation (which Lisa even says herself to Oprah)

Lisa lying about having children

So Michael agrees to accept Debbies crazy offer once Lisa says she does not want kids.

Also, its quite clear their union was not based on true love and both had their agendas. IMO, Michael was more in love with the idea of starting a family and having kids then being with Lisa and I honestly believe Lisa was more interested in a singing career than being Michael because lets be honest.... if she really was in love with Michael and wanted kids she would have had them with MJ, period. She has a right to not to want to have kids if that is what she chooses. However, it is NOT right to mislead a man and to have him thinking you want kids when you really don't. They were just married for a little less than 2 years so it was pretty early. So if Lisa knew she did not want kids she should have told MJ that from the get go. Its quite clear she played him and only promised him that because she knew he would marry her. AGAIN, I am not saying that mj was perfect but I believe Lisa was more at fault because she based the relationship on a lie. I dont believe she ever intended on having kids with Michael. She even gloated after the divorce she was glad she did not have kids with him.

Yeah I agree he's always loved the idea of a family and the high they both got off each other from the beginning, I can see why they wanted them at first, but it wore off. They were together before the allegations, but she said she was there when it was happening and they must have bonded over that so it makes sense why they wanted to have a kid, but once that died down, so did this idea. I'm glad they didn't have a kid together either, if there was more drama, that would have been stressful on michael too.

michael vacationed with lisa all the time when with debbie too, they were both hooked on each for a long ass time.

[Edited 11/8/15 20:00pm]

alphastreet said:

Something happened and she changed her mind and good on her cause they were falling apart and that would have been more stressful on their child. And mj was put through HELL cause of the allegations, if that's really true about the doll, that's so sad, my heart goes out to him :*( I really think after 93' he just wanted his own children for real that loved him for him and that was what sustained him for years, he was living for them and I'm glad he had that though he deserved to live longer and in peace.

But how do you change your mind about having kids after you insist that was the first thing you wanted to do less than 2 years in a marriage? Do you honestly believe that? I don't believe she ever intended on having Michael's kids. Lisa said in an interview that the relationship went sour after 6 months of the marriage and as Michael mentioned on the tapes, he insists the relationship ended because Lisa did not want to have kids. So all the bullshit Lisa says about the vultures and later the drug use is all lies to save face to mask the fact that Michael asked for the divorce after she insisted she did not want kids among other things. Michael also says that he would go to bed hurting at night while married to Lisa because of she lied to him and that they got into big arguments due to differences of interests (lack of compalibility) (This is all on the Rabbi transcripts I can post them if you want). AGAIN, if Lisa did not want kids, she has that right BUT it was wrong of her to use that as a way to marry Michael and to lead him on. Michael even says on the tapes that "She did not want kids" not that she wanted to wait to have kids. So that lets me know she never intended on having kids with him.

mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

Something happened and she changed her mind and good on her cause they were falling apart and that would have been more stressful on their child. And mj was put through HELL cause of the allegations, if that's really true about the doll, that's so sad, my heart goes out to him :*( I really think after 93' he just wanted his own children for real that loved him for him and that was what sustained him for years, he was living for them and I'm glad he had that though he deserved to live longer and in peace.

But how do you change your mind about having kids after you insist that was the first thing you wanted to do less than 2 years in a marriage? Do you honestly believe that? I don't believe she ever intended on having Michael's kids. Lisa said in an interview that the relationship went sour after 6 months of the marriage and as Michael mentioned on the tapes, he insists the relationship ended because Lisa did not want to have kids. So all the bullshit Lisa says about the vultures and later the drug use is all lies to save face to mask the fact that Michael asked for the divorce after she insisted she did not want kids among other things. Michael also says that he would go to bed hurting at night while married to Lisa because of she lied to him and that they got into big arguments due to differences of interests (lack of compalibility) (This is all on the Rabbi transcripts I can post them if you want). AGAIN, if Lisa did not want kids, she has that right BUT it was wrong of her to use that as a way to marry Michael and to lead him on. Michael even says on the tapes that "She did not want kids" not that she wanted to wait to have kids. So that lets me know she never intended on having kids with him.

only they know....anyways it's not a nice feeling being hurt wanting different things so it wasn't meant to be

alphastreet said:

mjscarousal said:

Maybe MJ would not have disappeared for 6 weeks if Lisa had not vacationed with her ex-husband without letting him know. The thing I notice about their relationship was that everything Lisa did.... Michael reacted to it.

Examples:

Lisa vacationing with her ex-husband

So Michael disappears for 6 weeks in retaliation (which Lisa even says herself to Oprah)

Lisa lying about having children

So Michael agrees to accept Debbies crazy offer once Lisa says she does not want kids.

Also, its quite clear their union was not based on true love and both had their agendas. IMO, Michael was more in love with the idea of starting a family and having kids then being with Lisa and I honestly believe Lisa was more interested in a singing career than being Michael because lets be honest.... if she really was in love with Michael and wanted kids she would have had them with MJ, period. She has a right to not to want to have kids if that is what she chooses. However, it is NOT right to mislead a man and to have him thinking you want kids when you really don't. They were just married for a little less than 2 years so it was pretty early. So if Lisa knew she did not want kids she should have told MJ that from the get go. Its quite clear she played him and only promised him that because she knew he would marry her. AGAIN, I am not saying that mj was perfect but I believe Lisa was more at fault because she based the relationship on a lie. I dont believe she ever intended on having kids with Michael. She even gloated after the divorce she was glad she did not have kids with him.

Yeah I agree he's always loved the idea of a family and the high they both got off each other from the beginning, I can see why they wanted them at first, but it wore off. They were together before the allegations, but she said she was there when it was happening and they must have bonded over that so it makes sense why they wanted to have a kid, but once that died down, so did this idea. I'm glad they didn't have a kid together either, if there was more drama, that would have been stressful on michael too.

michael vacationed with lisa all the time when with debbie too, they were both hooked on each for a long ass time.

[Edited 11/8/15 20:00pm]

Did you see the receipt that I posted in which Michael says on the tapes Lisa followed him around and wanted to get back with him but he didn't after the divorce? Michaels says on the Rabbi tapes that they were friends and hung out.... but he never said that he was romantically still interested. He says that Lisa tried to get back with him but he did not want too. They were not together for a long ass time. Lisa was engaged twice during the period she claims she was still seeing Michael. She is such a liar.

I am glad they did not have a child together either because there relationship was not based on true love and I am glad Michael realized his mistake and did not take her back. They had only dated for 3 months before marriage which is not a long time and the bolded reflects infatuation not deeper feelings of love so they union was doom from the get go. I just dont like how fans make Lisa appear to be Michaels one and only love and I dont think Michael was ever in love with her. Michael had a love but it wasn't her and he dated plenty of women before and after her..

mjscarousal said:

alphastreet said:

mjscarousal said:

But how do you change your mind about having kids after you insist that was the first thing you wanted to do less than 2 years in a marriage? Do you honestly believe that? I don't believe she ever intended on having Michael's kids. Lisa said in an interview that the relationship went sour after 6 months of the marriage and as Michael mentioned on the tapes, he insists the relationship ended because Lisa did not want to have kids. So all the bullshit Lisa says about the vultures and later the drug use is all lies to save face to mask the fact that Michael asked for the divorce after she insisted she did not want kids among other things. Michael also says that he would go to bed hurting at night while married to Lisa because of she lied to him and that they got into big arguments due to differences of interests (lack of compalibility) (This is all on the Rabbi transcripts I can post them if you want). AGAIN, if Lisa did not want kids, she has that right BUT it was wrong of her to use that as a way to marry Michael and to lead him on. Michael even says on the tapes that "She did not want kids" not that she wanted to wait to have kids. So that lets me know she never intended on having kids with him.

only they know....anyways it's not a nice feeling being hurt wanting different things so it wasn't meant to be

Agree, it wasn't meant to be....... and it was a mistake from the beginning. They should have dated longer and they would have found that they were not compatible. I don't think if the allegations ever occured, they would have ever married.

Love LMP's music. She inherited her father's talents and then some. Thanks for letting me know she released Storm and Grace. Going to get that for sure.

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said:

Maybe MJ would not have disappeared for 6 weeks if Lisa had not vacationed with her ex-husband without letting him know. The thing I notice about their relationship was that everything Lisa did.... Michael reacted to it.

Examples:

Lisa vacationing with her ex-husband

So Michael disappears for 6 weeks in retaliation (which Lisa even says herself to Oprah)

Lisa lying about having children

So Michael agrees to accept Debbies crazy offer once Lisa says she does not want kids.

Also, its quite clear their union was not based on true love and both had their agendas. IMO, Michael was more in love with the idea of starting a family and having kids then being with Lisa and I honestly believe Lisa was more interested in a singing career than being Michael because lets be honest.... if she really was in love with Michael and wanted kids she would have had them with MJ, period. She has a right to not to want to have kids if that is what she chooses. However, it is NOT right to mislead a man and to have him thinking you want kids when you really don't. They were just married for a little less than 2 years so it was pretty early. So if Lisa knew she did not want kids she should have told MJ that from the get go. Its quite clear she played him and only promised him that because she knew he would marry her. AGAIN, I am not saying that mj was perfect but I believe Lisa was more at fault because she based the relationship on a lie. I dont believe she ever intended on having kids with Michael. She even gloated after the divorce she was glad she did not have kids with him.

Eh I guess I'm not on the Lisa is a wicked witch thing....she's still a hoe in my book for her part too BUT always thought he was sorta a butt for the doll thing.....like who in the hell guilt trips someone for not having kids. As far as her lying about the kids I halfway agree BUT its not like she tricked him into thinking she was pregnant or anything. I guess as much as I loved the dynamic between them it just wasn't meant to be. We all don't know the truth there's his side and her side and the truth. Both them try to act like selfless victims but let's face it he ain't perfect and she's damn sure ain't perfect. They admitted that, so much respect for noticing their flaws. I will say that maybe as heartbreaking as the whole story is for both of them they both got what they wanted although not with each other. Lisa has a boat load of kids with a seemingly supportive husband and wealthy as ever, michael got his kids and not the headache of the wife lol and we all know those little cuties were his world. I guess it didn't turn out quite alright but they were still blessed with their kids...whom as a person who refuses to have them since I work with the little bas....angels everyday....kids have an uncanny way of making everything feel like the struggle means something they keep you strong and focused. No one proves that as much as michael

Well I wouldn't say Michael "guilt tripped her" because I know plenty of marriages and relationships that broke apart because one partner did not want kids. Its a deal breaker for sure. IMO, Lisa should have been honest with her intentions from the get go and I also don't think she is ever completely honest when she talks about her relationship with MJ. Even when she talked to Oprah in 2009, she fabricated a lot of things and even a body language expert insisted a lot of her body movements reflected dishonesty. She insisted their marriage ended because of Michael's drug use but back in 2003 she insisted the marriage ended because she had had to leave him because she felt used BUT Karen Faye in 2013 during the AEG trial insisted that Michael was actually the one who first asked for the divorce and Lisa begged him not to file but Lisa filed the very next day. (These actions are not actions of two people that are in love). So it was obviously not meant to be. Michael found a woman that he true love....but it wasnt Lisa.

Also, how is the doll thing manipulative when they both agreed before marriage to have kids? Lisa had two kids of her own. Imagine you wanting kids with your wife and you see the kids she had with her first husband but she insists she doesnt want to have kids with you after she said she would? Thats hurtful.....

[Edited 11/8/15 20:32pm]

This was one of MJ's and LMP's greatest moments. It was such a great marriage, full of love and only real love.

I think this was MJ's greatest moment captured on live television. Truly iconic!

QueenofPurplePalace said:

Scorp said:

for like the 1,000th time you are wrong again,

no, for the 2,000th time you are wrong again

this is what happens when a person jumps to conclusions when they dont' like what's being said

before the internet even existed, back in 1991, 1992, and 1993

when Dangerous was released in November of 1991, I was just as eager to buy it as I was the day Bad was released

and during Dangerous run, and after, I always said it should have received more critical claim than it did and that it was an excellent album throughout, and during the time the album was out, I never compared it to Off The Wall or Thriller and that's how I approached all of his albums, basing them off of its own merit

AND to this day, as of 2015, Will You Be There remains my favorite MJ song since the 90s, and always viewed that song as one of the greatest recordings he ever gave.........

still have the original CD of Dangerous to this day w/the broken CD case and all as a keepsake

AND always said his performance of Heal The World at the 1993 Super Bowl in Pasadena, California was one of the most touching moments of his career

when History was released in June of 2015, I got that album too the week of release, as I was anticipating it good to a year in advance when word came out in 1994 that the album was being worked on for initially, the album was supposed to feature all new music then MJ scrapped that idea to go w/the one CD featuring all this top charting classics and the second CD featuring new songs........

and always said Earth Song should have been released as a single here in North America, that it was poignant, called for universal action to confront the activities that were harming the planet, always said the song Little Susie showcased his vocal ability in the most unique way, always said the single Money should have been released as a single to for that was one of the best songs on the album, that I loved the inspiration of the title track History and how much I enjoyed it, in the same vein that I did the song Keep The Faith from Dangerous, that Tabloid Junkie was power packed and that the hook and the chorus were A-1.....and I know the facts never picked up on this and haven't to this day, in the album booklet, MJ featured that famous picture of him standing on his toes during the Triumph Tour sporting the original glittered socks, hoping that image would endear the audience he knew he had lost some 8 years prior would be moved to buy the album.

same thing goes for the album Invincible, as I bought that the day of release back in October of 2001, as I was anticipating that album almost TWO years in advance as Rodney Jerkins gave an interview with Vibe Magazine back in 1999 stating he was producing it, w/he and MJ spending 18 hours a day in the studio trying to record it, always said the single Break of Dawn was one of the top 10 greatest recordings of his entire career as that song was perfect from beginnign to end, Break of Dawn would have been a #1 record if it had been released as a single, and that Heaven Can Wait was a beautiful song as well, and that could have been released as a single, and Whatever happens complimented the current phase of his career in a very appropriate way, and despite of what he was accused of 8 years prior, I really liked the song The Lost Children as well, I loved the song Cry as well, for that was the last song he recorded that called on the universal message of togetherness

the problem is what you is what you think about my thoughts w/out you actually thinking

the fact that a person would like an artist's music for "being in your face" to the media is what pushed him to the brink, because that's a battle nobody is going to win, one that never needed to be in the first place, for he sure didn't have to be "in your face" to the media during the beginning stage of his adult solo career for his musical message stood out in the most definitive way where he didnt' NEED to war w/the media, for the media, and the public, and the world embraced that message tenfold

Michael Jackson never needed to go that route w/the media, but as that battle sprung and progressed, the media got the upper hand, and once they did, it was TOAST, and that battle actually detracted from the message he intended to convey when this all started, and that's why songs like Will You Be There and Earth Song and Cry did not receive the long lasting stature than songs like Can You Feel It did, for the message had been completely undermined by the time the mid 90s hit

I always said that History should acknowledge that MJ made great and accomplished music post Thriller but the problem is the false image he would come to project starting in 1987 undermines that fact and that's why his current following have to always mention that to be the case.

as far as being rawer, nothing MJ did was more raw than the way he performed during that Triumph Tour of 1981, he was unleashing dance moves on teh fly, it was so raw, people wasn't even trying to emulate the dance moves, this was the period of his career that was referred to as "The Magic of Michael Jackson" which is the reason J. Randy Taraborelli named his unofficially official autobiographical book on MJ "The Magic and the Madness" because all you had in teh beginning WAS The Magic

and if a poll was taken by ALL of Michael Jackson's fans from 1969-2015, and asked them what as his greatest love song, slow jam, more than likely, the song that would be chosen as the top one would be LADY IN MY LIFE

as I mentioned to another individual a couple of days before

get your facts straight, and then maybe you will have a chance too

[Edited 11/1/15 3:38am]

Look Scorp, I'm going to make this real simple. Thats my opinion on his musical journey, I have always felt he developed more as he grew older like we all do. However, I tried my best to be nothing but respectful and you've been defensive the whole dang time for no apparent reason. Now I'm not calling you a fake fan simply because you have a different opinion than mine, that's childish and I'm a grown ass woman and you're obviously a grown man. But DO NOT ever try to undermine my intelligence with your condescending comments about how I or anyone else don't know this or that. Now I awknowlege your facts that I've seen countless of times and my opinion is solid backed with evidence that I will no problem present to you. BTW don't use a book like The Music in the Madness ever to prove a point. Like you said it's an unofficial biography and its sources are just printed out of magazines that I remember reading back in the day on trashy tabloids. See the Lisa Marie chapters sources if skeptical.

I am not sure why yall continue to go back and forth with some of these fonts. I had no idea this debate was still going on. These trolls just want attention and just want to get a rise out of the fans, just ignore them. The Music and the Madness book is a FULL of lies so the fact that it is quoted as facts is a joke.

mjscarousal said:

mjscarousal said:

mjscarousal said:

QueenofPurplePalace said:

Scorp said: Look Scorp, I'm going to make this real simple. Thats my opinion on his musical journey, I have always felt he developed more as he grew older like we all do. However, I tried my best to be nothing but respectful and you've been defensive the whole dang time for no apparent reason. Now I'm not calling you a fake fan simply because you have a different opinion than mine, that's childish and I'm a grown ass woman and you're obviously a grown man. But DO NOT ever try to undermine my intelligence with your condescending comments about how I or anyone else don't know this or that. Now I awknowlege your facts that I've seen countless of times and my opinion is solid backed with evidence that I will no problem present to you. BTW don't use a book like The Music in the Madness ever to prove a point. Like you said it's an unofficial biography and its sources are just printed out of magazines that I remember reading back in the day on trashy tabloids. See the Lisa Marie chapters sources if skeptical.

I am not sure why yall continue to go back and forth with some of these fonts. I had no idea this debate was still going on. These trolls just want attention and just want to get a rise out of the fans, just ignore them. The Music and the Madness book is a FULL of lies so the fact that it is quoted as facts is a joke.

you got it all wrong, yet again.......

I DID NOT quote The Magic and the Madness as a point of reference

I mentioned THE TITLE of the book to show how J. Randy Taraborelli, borrowed reference to Michael's talent at the beginning stage of his adult solo career from 1969-1984 that was referred to as "The Magic of Michael Jackson", and how J. Randy used the word Magic to bring attention to his book, specifically, the original edition to book

I keep on tellin you that I dont' need no books, no articles, no innuendos to formulate observation when commercial media did not know about MJ as an adult artist and what he was known for until Motown 25 hit

maybe if you read what someone says in fullness, you won't keep jumping to the wrong conclusions

I quoted zero from that book, stop jumping the gun and then maybe you would have a chance

because that's exactly what you did, jumped the gun

first rule of any legit discussion, you have to get the facts right and you can't twist and chop up words, you have to respond to exactly what a person said

[Edited 11/8/15 21:04pm]

Taraborelli's book is titled The Magic and the Madness, not The Music and the Madness.

MichaelJackson5 said:

Taraborelli's book is titled The Magic and the Madness, not The Music and the Madness.

thats' what happens when a person jumps the gun, they get anxious

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said:

I am not sure why yall continue to go back and forth with some of these fonts. I had no idea this debate was still going on. These trolls just want attention and just want to get a rise out of the fans, just ignore them. The Music and the Madness book is a FULL of lies so the fact that it is quoted as facts is a joke.

Lol don't be so shady, but that book reads like a damn Twilight book. I laughed so hard when he describing michael having sexual relations I'm like how in the hell.....?

LOL Exactly, how would he have known that? What I found funny about the descriptions in the book is that Taraborelli talks as if he was right there watching MJ and Lisa having sex LOL. He claims that his facts come from "credible sources" but never lists them. Its an unauthorized biography but yet it is often cited as a factual source. Its really hilarious. Taraborelli has been proven to be unreliable and has made a career off of making up scandelous stories about Michael and the Jacksons. So anyone who cites him or his scandelous book as a "source" for anything is not really a fan.

Scorp said:

mjscarousal said:

I am not sure why yall continue to go back and forth with some of these fonts. I had no idea this debate was still going on. These trolls just want attention and just want to get a rise out of the fans, just ignore them. The Music and the Madness book is a FULL of lies so the fact that it is quoted as facts is a joke.

you got it all wrong, yet again.......

I DID NOT quote The Magic and the Madness as a point of reference

I mentioned THE TITLE of the book to show how J. Randy Taraborelli, borrowed reference to Michael's talent at the beginning stage of his adult solo career from 1969-1984 that was referred to as "The Magic of Michael Jackson", and how J. Randy used the word Magic to bring attention to his book, specifically, the original edition to book

I keep on tellin you that I dont' need no books, no articles, no innuendos to formulate observation when commercial media did not know about MJ as an adult artist and what he was known for until Motown 25 hit

maybe if you read what someone says in fullness, you won't keep jumping to the wrong conclusions

I quoted zero from that book, stop jumping the gun and then maybe you would have a chance

because that's exactly what you did, jumped the gun

first rule of any legit discussion, you have to get the facts right and you can't twist and chop up words, you have to respond to exactly what a person said

[Edited 11/8/15 21:04pm]

But why mention the book when its a book full of lies? Like Why? Also, you have quoted the book before to support your perspectives so don't act like you have never used the book as reference for some of your views.

mjscarousal said:

Scorp said:

MichaelJackson5 said:

Taraborelli's book is titled The Magic and the Madness, not The Music and the Madness.

thats' what happens when a person jumps the gun, they get anxious

As bad as Taraborelli might be, many folks believe his unofficial biography more than what MJ wrote about on Moonwalk. I'm not saying it's right but it is what it is.

mjscarousal said:

Scorp said:

you got it all wrong, yet again.......

I DID NOT quote The Magic and the Madness as a point of reference

I mentioned THE TITLE of the book to show how J. Randy Taraborelli, borrowed reference to Michael's talent at the beginning stage of his adult solo career from 1969-1984 that was referred to as "The Magic of Michael Jackson", and how J. Randy used the word Magic to bring attention to his book, specifically, the original edition to book

I keep on tellin you that I dont' need no books, no articles, no innuendos to formulate observation when commercial media did not know about MJ as an adult artist and what he was known for until Motown 25 hit

maybe if you read what someone says in fullness, you won't keep jumping to the wrong conclusions

I quoted zero from that book, stop jumping the gun and then maybe you would have a chance

because that's exactly what you did, jumped the gun

first rule of any legit discussion, you have to get the facts right and you can't twist and chop up words, you have to respond to exactly what a person said

[Edited 11/8/15 21:04pm]

But why mention the book when its a book full of lies? Like Why? Also, you have quoted the book before to support your perspectives so don't act like you have never used the book as reference for some of your views.

now see, u making stuff up which I knew u was gonna do.......you can't make something true when it's not

I don't need J. Randy's perspective or his writings to substantiate what happened to this entertainer over time.....zilch......

and yet again, I did not quote anything from that book, I referred to the word MAGIC because he used that word to bring attention to his book for that's how MJ's music and talent was referred to when he was younger........

but I know you won't admit you jumped the gun and made a mistake because you are so keen on trying to call someone out but it's not going to work

just like J. Randy used the word MAGIC to promote his book, Diane Diamond did the same thing w/her book Be Careful Who You Love that she wrote about that trial

keep tellin u you got it twisted because none of these books written past, present and future hasn't, won't, will never address the true core problem of what happened

The original edition of J. Randy's book wasn't released until 1991, the damage had already been done, and the problems were already present before he even wrote that book, already by then, the entertainment value was already secondary and the human value already obliterated

[Edited 11/8/15 21:26pm]

QueenofPurplePalace said:

mjscarousal said:

Well I wouldn't say Michael "guilt tripped her" because I know plenty of marriages and relationships that broke apart because one partner did not want kids. Its a deal breaker for sure. IMO, Lisa should have been honest with her intentions from the get go and I also don't think she is ever completely honest when she talks about her relationship with MJ. Even when she talked to Oprah in 2009, she fabricated a lot of things and even a body language expert insisted a lot of her body movements reflected dishonesty. She insisted their marriage ended because of Michael's drug use but back in 2003 she insisted the marriage ended because she had had to leave him because she felt used BUT Karen Faye in 2013 during the AEG trial insisted that Michael was actually the one who first asked for the divorce and Lisa begged him not to file but Lisa filed the very next day. (These actions are not actions of two people that are in love). So it was obviously not meant to be. Michael found a woman that he true love....but it wasnt Lisa.

Also, how is the doll thing manipulative when they both agreed before marriage to have kids? Lisa had two kids of her own. Imagine you wanting kids with your wife and you see the kids she had with her first husband but she insists she doesnt want to have kids with you after she said she would? Thats hurtful.....

[Edited 11/8/15 20:32pm]

I always believe they loved each other...they both lied and Lisa was wrong as hell for her lying etc etc. BUT the doll feels manipulative and childish.....why? Its like when your mom tells you no you can't have no icecream and to fix your damn face. ..and you reply with I would be happy if I had some ice cream. ...you see where I'm going? But that's just how I see it. I thought they were equally at fault...she got on his damn nerves and she was tired of the BS and chaos that was Michael Jackson's life at the time. And also I agree with how it must've felt for Michael amd I feel for the guy I really do BUT if we look at her POV....wouldn't it be hurtful if your loved ome was all set to leave you simply because you wouldn't have his baby after a short amount of time to produce it AAAAND lose him to (no shade to Debbie ) an less attractive woman...her ego and feelings was probably hurt. Hopefully she learned to be more honest.... and let's be real for a sec....nobody I mean NOBODY is seriously telling the truth....she ain't ever gonna take the blame and neither will he. Its more he said she said when it comes to other people's relationships. Plus btw the reason I felt she loved and trusted him is she brought her kids around him even after that bogus case of 1993 which is a big deal for a mother because you're a mom before you're a wife. Shes made plenty of sacrifices and to quote Frank Casio (did I spell it right? ) he loved her as much as he could. .. And what woman he found? What's the tea🍵🍵🍵

I really really appreciate your respectfulness throughout this discussion although we have disagreed on a lot. But imo, I don't think they were ever in love. I think the relationship was based on pure infatuation that quickly died away once the true intentions from both sides came into play. I kinda see what you are saying with the doll example but in this particular case, I don't view the doll example as manipulative because the discussion of whether or not partners want children in a relationship is a very "serious issue" that I think Lisa did not take seriouly well at least on Michael's part.

If Lisa was hurt because MJ got kids from Debbie, it was imo her own fault. Michael even says on the tapes that he told Lisa Debbie was going to give him kids and Lisa replied "I don't care" (So its not like she did not know about it) Lisa made the decision to go back on her word and lie to Michael and while AGAIN I do agree accepting Debbie's crazy offer was wrong of MJ, I think that he did it because Lisa lied and was not being honest AND because he really wanted kids and wanted to be a father. He was not in love with Lisa which is why he quickly accepted Debbie's offer.

Scorp said:

Scorp said:

mjscarousal said:

But why mention the book when its a book full of lies? Like Why? Also, you have quoted the book before to support your perspectives so don't act like you have never used the book as reference for some of your views.

now see, u making stuff up which I knew u was gonna do.......you can't make something true when it's not

I don't need J. Randy's perspective or his writings to substantiate what happened to this entertainer over time.....zilch......

and yet again, I did not quote anything from that book, I referred to the word MAGIC because he used that word to bring attention to his book for that's how MJ's music and talent was referred to when he was younger........

but I know you won't admit you jumped the gun and made a mistake because you are so keen on trying to call someone out but it's not going to work

just like J. Randy used the word MAGIC to promote his book, Diane Diamond did the same thing w/her book Be Careful Who You Love that she wrote about that trial

keep tellin u you got it twisted because none of these books written past, present and future hasn't, won't, will never address the true core problem of what happened

[Edited 11/8/15 21:23pm]

YOU DID use it as a reference. Can you please answer the question as to why you would reference a scandelous book that is full of lies? Referencing the MAGIC out of the title of the book IS a reference. So why reference it if you think the book is full of lies? All you do here is come and instigate a lot of unnessesary arguments but I am not going to sit back here and go back in forth with you. Have fun with you other troll friend, just stay out of my way.

mjscarousal said:

mjscarousal said: