daingermouz2020 said:

Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston. IMO they started off popish became more R&B more soulful after huge success. Where most artist would do this in reverse.

Agree on this, but I would add that the new trend of having guest stars on your album ("Featuring Akon", "Featuring Jay-Z", "Featuring Ludicris", etc) would define a whole other level of sellout.

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Mariah Carey was a damn good performer. She didn't need to go the hip-hop, guest star route, but money talks.

daingermouz2020 said:

Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston. IMO they started off popish became more R&B more soulful after huge success. Where most artist would do this in reverse.

Mariah became LESS soulful after 1997 and became more hip-hop. Big difference. Nippy started to go in a tad more R&B direction later on when, again, the black community accused her of being a "sell-out" because her music was too Pop. But, unlike Mariah, Nippy never completely abandoned her Pop audience.

I have a hard time with that phrase.

It is difficult earning a living in the entertainment business over a long period of time.

Artist have a remain flexible and sometimes have 2 go in direction which may not please their "fans" but helps them 2 maintain a career.

Sometimes u simply have 2 follow where the money leads u.

There is nothing worst than a broke artist.

Graycap23 said:

I have a hard time with that phrase.

It is difficult earning a living in the entertainment business over a long period of time.

Artist have a remain flexible and sometimes have 2 go in direction which may not please their "fans" but helps them 2 maintain a career.

Sometimes u simply have 2 follow where the money leads u.

There is nothing worst than a broke artist.

Critical acclaim and artistic innovation does not automatically go hand in hand with monetary rewards, unfortunately.

Se7en said:

You guys forget that Tommy Motolla helmed Mariah Carey's early career and he was the master of servicing songs that fit multiple radio formats after managing Hall & Oates in their prime.

daingermouz2020 said:

Just remembers a few more that may be considered sell outs. Michael Jackson, Prince. his Rave to the Joy Fantastic I recalled featured Sheryl Crow and the rap artist Eve. Chaka Khans' I Feel For You, Debarges Rhythm of the Night album, El Debarge's first solo album.

Rave was certainly a sell-out moment for Prince. Having that many guest stars on one album (after never having them before) screamed that he was desperate for a hit album. Too bad the whole deal with Arista fell through shortly thereafter.

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On a side note: I think Rave was the last time we got a real "era look" for one of Prince's albums. Everything since has somewhat blended together . . . 2-3 "jazz" era projects, followed by 2-3 "comeback" era projects, etc. Someone could look at a picture from Rave and place it immediately.

daingermouz2020 said:

Just remembers a few more that may be considered sell outs. Michael Jackson, Prince. his Rave to the Joy Fantastic I recalled featured Sheryl Crow and the rap artist Eve. Chaka Khans' I Feel For You, Debarges Rhythm of the Night album, El Debarge's first solo album.

Chaka's "I Feel For You" saved her career. She was told point blank by her label if she didn't stop with all that old-school R&B and jazz stuff and didn't deliver a product that could be marketed outside of black radio, they were going to drop her. She gave them what they asked for. She said that album is the only one she's ever felt a complete disconnect towards.

kitbradley said:

daingermouz2020 said:

Just remembers a few more that may be considered sell outs. Michael Jackson, Prince. his Rave to the Joy Fantastic I recalled featured Sheryl Crow and the rap artist Eve. Chaka Khans' I Feel For You, Debarges Rhythm of the Night album, El Debarge's first solo album.

Chaka's "I Feel For You" saved her career. She was told point blank by her label if she didn't stop with all that old-school R&B and jazz stuff and didn't deliver a product that could be marketed outside of black radio, they were going to drop her. She gave them what they asked for. She said that album is the only one she's ever felt a complete disconnect towards.

That is harsh and a perfect example of why this happens.

the whole idea of 'selling out' is such bs.

if you have the ability to spend your life making music, and have ANY shot at doing that i think you should do whatever it takes to remain viable and keep your bills paid. at the end of the day you're still spending your life engaged in an artistic process that gets you paid too. most arent lucky to manage that.

selling out? no. cashing in? YES. sometimes that gravy train comes once, if it stopped in front of you what would you do? let the train leave without you? probably not. if you do you're hella stupid.

i can't fualt any artist for doig what they need to do to remain in the game. the need for survival and basic necessities drives alot of great art.....its not fair to expect anyone to not address trends or not experiment in other genres to remain making music.

2freaky4church1 said:

kitbradley said:

daingermouz2020 said:

Just remembers a few more that may be considered sell outs. Michael Jackson, Prince. his Rave to the Joy Fantastic I recalled featured Sheryl Crow and the rap artist Eve. Chaka Khans' I Feel For You, Debarges Rhythm of the Night album, El Debarge's first solo album.

Chaka's "I Feel For You" saved her career. She was told point blank by her label if she didn't stop with all that old-school R&B and jazz stuff and didn't deliver a product that could be marketed outside of black radio, they were going to drop her. She gave them what they asked for. She said that album is the only one she's ever felt a complete disconnect towards.

Record companies are in business to make money and if the music ain't selling,they threaten to drop these artists.I don't care for Chaka's I Feel For You album but I understand why she recorded it.She was under pressure from Warner Brothers.Many artists and bands were in that same situation.It's not necessarily "selling out",it's survival.

Liz Phair. ETA: to go along with what Graycap23 said, she said point blank in an interview that she wanted to make money and writing pop tunes was the safest way to do that. I am not judging her, just saying her recent stuff is nothing like Exile in Guyville.

[Edited 5/5/15 10:05am]

I think artists by nature are very sensitive about selling anything that isn't totally genuine. Before Gowan his in 1985 with "Strange Animal" and "A Criminal Mind", he had a flop album in 1982. He said he was given a makeover with BIG HAIR and red highlights and all the things that translated very well to music video. He felt weird about it but went ahead and it made his career which he continues to enjoy today.

I think Deniece Williams recognized "Let's Hear It For The Boy" as VERY light material and recorded it anyway due to its hit potential (And she was right), even though her close collaborator George Duke hated that song until his last days on Earth.

She "kept it real" and sang a gospel song the year she should have sang "Let's Hear It For The Boy", and it was a real blow to her career somehow.

So, she sold-out musically but didn't follow through.

Cinny said:

I think Deniece Williams recognized "Let's Hear It For The Boy" as VERY light material and recorded it anyway due to its hit potential (And she was right), even though her close collaborator George Duke hated that song until his last days on Earth.

She "kept it real" and sang a gospel song the year she should have sang "Let's Hear It For The Boy", and it was a real blow to her career somehow.

So, she sold-out musically but didn't follow through.

I don't know if opting to sing "God Is Amazing" at the 1985 Grammy Awards hurt her career as much as the weak follow-up album, "Hot On the Trail".

kitbradley said:

Cinny said:

I think Deniece Williams recognized "Let's Hear It For The Boy" as VERY light material and recorded it anyway due to its hit potential (And she was right), even though her close collaborator George Duke hated that song until his last days on Earth.

She "kept it real" and sang a gospel song the year she should have sang "Let's Hear It For The Boy", and it was a real blow to her career somehow.

So, she sold-out musically but didn't follow through.

I don't know if opting to sing "God Is Amazing" at the 1985 Grammy Awards hurt her career as much as the weak follow-up album, "Hot On the Trail".

That seems more likely. Her episode of Unsung seemed to point towards a record-jump-scratch moment being the Grammys.

Prince for most of 1989-1999

Eminem

Madonna 2008 and counting

Stevie Wonder after Hotter Than July

Paul McCartney after the first half of the '70s

Liz Phair

Lionel Richie

Billy Idol

Adam Ant

Justin Bieber

Whitney Houston and Mariah (since the beginning)

David Bowie 1983-1987

Elton John 1979 and 1984-1989

Aerosmith after 1989-90's Pump

Def Leppard after 1984

Metallica after 1993

Poison

pretty much EVERY AOR band

RHCP after 1995

Kiss in 1979-80 and 1985-1990

Whitesnake 1988-1990

Van Hagar

Bryan Adams

Blondie after 1979

some eras of Ozzy Osbourne

Bon Jovi after their first two albums 84-85

Mick Jagger's 80s solo albums

Queen 1982-1989

Beach Boys 1978-1996

Carlos Santana with the Arista label

Phil Collins solo and his pop version of Genesis

Peter Gabriel in the '80s

certain albums/songs of Eric Clapton

Tina Turner (after or with Private Dancer, depending on whom you ask)

JoeTyler said:

Graycap23 said:

I have a hard time with that phrase.

It is difficult earning a living in the entertainment business over a long period of time.

Artist have a remain flexible and sometimes have 2 go in direction which may not please their "fans" but helps them 2 maintain a career.

Sometimes u simply have 2 follow where the money leads u.

There is nothing worst than a broke artist.

agree!

lowkey said:

Graycap23 said:

I have a hard time with that phrase.

It is difficult earning a living in the entertainment business over a long period of time.

Artist have a remain flexible and sometimes have 2 go in direction which may not please their "fans" but helps them 2 maintain a career.

Sometimes u simply have 2 follow where the money leads u.

There is nothing worst than a broke artist.

agree!

did they sell out because THEY HAD to cause they were going broke or did the rec co push them into it?

MotownSubdivision said:

JoeTyler said:

Prince for most of 1989-1999

Eminem

Madonna 2008 and counting

Stevie Wonder after Hotter Than July

Paul McCartney after the first half of the '70s

Liz Phair

Lionel Richie

Billy Idol

Adam Ant

Justin Bieber

Whitney Houston and Mariah (since the beginning)

David Bowie 1983-1987

Elton John 1979 and 1984-1989

Aerosmith after 1989-90's Pump

Def Leppard after 1984

Metallica after 1993

Poison

pretty much EVERY AOR band

RHCP after 1995

Kiss in 1979-80 and 1985-1990

Whitesnake 1988-1990

Van Hagar

Bryan Adams

Blondie after 1979

some eras of Ozzy Osbourne

Bon Jovi after their first two albums 84-85

Mick Jagger's 80s solo albums

Queen 1982-1989

Beach Boys 1978-1996

Carlos Santana with the Arista label

Phil Collins solo and his pop version of Genesis

Peter Gabriel in the '80s

certain albums/songs of Eric Clapton

Tina Turner (after or with Private Dancer, depending on whom you ask)

Many of these I disagree with but the one I want to point out is Bieber. He was always a record label product just as pretty much every boy band before him and One Direction now. How can he be considered a sell out when he was made by the industry to sing shallow, radio friendly paint-by-numbers pop music from the beginning and likely never had any control over his output?

guy started as a young teen playing acoustic guitar, becoming a youtube celeb, then $$$$$$ knocked on his door and he embraced studio guidance and synths-playback-autotune

sellout in my book, no matter how young he was

Graycap23 said:

I have a hard time with that phrase.

It is difficult earning a living in the entertainment business over a long period of time.

Artist have a remain flexible and sometimes have 2 go in direction which may not please their "fans" but helps them 2 maintain a career.

Sometimes u simply have 2 follow where the money leads u.

There is nothing worse than a broke artist.

Very good point.For many artists,if they don't make the necessary changes,they get left behind.It's not "selling out",it's survival.

I remember having this same discussion a long time ago and someone had the nerve to say that The Gees sold out in the mid-70s when they started doing R&B and disco Considering how much success they had with their artistic makeover,how can anyone argue that it was a bad idea? I didn't see it as jumping on a bandwagon...those guys have always loved R&B sounds.

SoulAlive said:

I remember having this same discussion a long time ago and someone had the nerve to say that The Gees sold out in the mid-70s when they started doing R&B and disco Considering how much success they had with their artistic makeover,how can anyone argue that it was a bad idea? I didn't see it as jumping on a bandwagon...those guys have always loved R&B sounds.

I remember it was a time that I thought the 70's starting with Jive Talkin was their

beginning. I had no idea these guys started out in the 60's.

thedoorkeeper said:

I don't think of Elton John as a sell out - more like he just stopped writing good music. He was very popular and then in the late 70's his albums just started to suck and the hits stopped coming. Since then he just keeps trying to catch the wave but never manages to hang ten. His drug use and splitting with his lyricist didn't help.

No its becauase Elton also came out as a Bisexual man in 1976 in a Rolling Stone interview and Americans abandoned him in droves. He crossed over with his country pop and R and B tinged Americana inhis music, but these same people who have a "traditional" view on religion and society could not stand to listen to the utterings of a bisexual and a sodomite and some one who did not love American God and Jeebasus.

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He had no big hits in the US again until Little Jeannie in 1980 and mainly as it was about a girl. America was even more homophobic back then. Same thing happened to Queen with Freddies cross dressing in the 1984 song video I wanna break free. What little momentum Queen had got in the USA to that point had gone and was not retsored until Waynes World in 1992.

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I guess Americans don't mind if someone is gay, but when they act gay and rub it in their face, that is different, after all Boy George and George Michael did well until they fully emerged as GAY.