I am guessing this has been done in the past but have at least not noticed it in quite a while. And I am sure there will be those who disagree with my choices and maybe the whole concept of a "sell-out." In this context, a sell-out is a musical artist who demonstrated a certain level of artistry or commitment and expertise in a given genre and then for whatever reason (e.g. personal preference, seeking more commercial success/money, bad advice, substance abuse, fading capabilities, band personnel changes, finding Jesus, etc.) released material that was either far inferior or betrayed that artist's roots and core following. Sometimes these artists return to form but more often than not they never regain that special something. Also, I am not talking about those really special artists who can teeter on selling out and then fully regain form (e.g. Prince, Stevie Wonder, Herbie Hancock). I'll get the disgraceful list rolling . . .

• George Benson (post Breezin', forsook being one of the great jazz guitatists for schmaltzy pop)

• Lionel Richie (post Commodores, although by late 1970s he was steering them in that direction too)

• Kool & the Gang (post 1978's Open Sesame, Ladies Night beginning of end despite success)

• Earth, Wind & Fire (post All N All, although they had flashes of a return to form)

• Aerosmith (post Permanent Vacation, although they also have had flashes of a return to form)

• Kenny G (believe it or not he was once good when part of the Jeff Lorber Fusion)

It's hard to say who would have "gone pop" right at the beginning of their career if given a proper shot at it. I don't give Kenny G a lot of credit for having been a sideman in a credible fusion band before doing his own horrible thing.

On the one hand Phil Collins and his modern equivalent Dave Grohl both come to mind. They were the drummers in much more interesting and uncompromising bands before going solo. But, you know, they were the DRUMMERS in those bands not necessarily the creative engines. They would have been very vanilla solo artists, if they ahd started out doing that.

I asked my friend Steve from Mudhoney to name a band that truly sold out to the alt-90s and he named Soul Asylum. I can't think of too many better examples from the rock world.

MotownSubdivision said:

I knew Lionel Richie would be mentioned and I disagree. The dude went on to prove that he has one of the most versatile voices in all of music post-Commodores. Not everyone can convincingly sing funk, R&B, country, reggae, and other genres of music like Lionel can. In retrospect, it would have been a crime to relegate his vocals just to funk and R&B. And EWF? Wow. So one song ("Boogie Wonderland") off of one album (I Am) makes them a group of sell outs? Get outta here with that. Just because their music at some poiny wasn't as good as it used to be doesn't mean they sold out.

Stevie Wonder is a cat who does it all, all those genres you mentioned for Lionel but he still brings the funk and grit. Lionel managed to strike a balance with This Is Your Life/Slippery When Wet, Gimme My Mule/Sweet Love, Fancy Dancer/High on Sunshine, Brick House/Easy and Zoom and then with the crossover of the "Blue" album it all began to go haywire.

Boogie Wonderland was a major offense. It was like Lebron James at the height of his powers deciding he would instead play professional badminton. I mean, WTF? So they wanted a taste of the disco craze, the Rolling Stones did Miss You and managed to hold onto their essence, why couldn't EWF? And that I Am album was such a step down overall after all that the greatness that had preceded it. They never again put out songs as strong as Shining Star, Serpentine Fire, On Your Face, Sing a Song, Mighty Mighty, Devotion and on and on, nor albums as consistent and powerful as the Open Our Eyes through All N All run. Have you read Philip Bailey's recent autobiography? Recommended. Although he does not trash I Am he does talk about how Maurice White went off the deep end and the band lost its way.

MotownSubdivision said:

I knew Lionel Richie would be mentioned and I disagree. The dude went on to prove that he has one of the most versatile voices in all of music post-Commodores. Not everyone can convincingly sing funk, R&B, country, reggae, and other genres of music like Lionel can. In retrospect, it would have been a crime to relegate his vocals just to funk and R&B.

My usual gripe when people cry "sell-out!", is to ask when is an artist allowed to experiment with his or her art or show some growth without the original fans labelling it sell-out material?

It's one thing if an artisit like a Meshell Ndegeocello were to sign with Rihanna's people and have them start writing and producing her music and styling her; but if jazz performer gets an itch to try making a poppier song, who is to say that that person didn't just crave an artistic challenge.

Worse is starting from mid to late 90's with Backstreet boys, Britney, Chistina, INSYNC until now Kayne West, Justin Beiber, American Idol crap

I actually love the I Am album yes,"Boogie Wonderland" is disco,but I think it's good disco.The album is filled with strong songs like "Let Your Feelings Show","Wait","Can't Let Go" and "You And I".This album takes a more 'pop' approach,but I think the results are excellent.

It's true that some of these 80s funk bands changed their sound as the 80s arrived,but if they hadn't,would they have even survived in the 80s? Take Kool & The Gang,for example.By the mid-70s,their brand of jazzy funk wasn't really selling anymore.After Open Sesame,they had a few albums that flopped.It was the Ladies Night album in 1979 that brought them back to relevency.I think they made those changes in order to stay afloat,commercially.

thekidsgirl said:

My usual gripe when people cry "sell-out!", is to ask when is an artist allowed to experiment with his or her art or show some growth without the original fans labelling it sell-out material?

It's one thing if an artisit like a Meshell Ndegeocello were to sign with Rihanna's people and have them start writing and producing her music and styling her; but if a jazz performer gets an itch to try making a poppier song, who is to say that that person didn't just crave an artistic challenge.

Very good point,and I think this was certainly the case with George Benson.

I also remember in the late 70s,Roy Ayers was heavily criticized for exploring funky disco music.They called him a 'sellout' too.

MotownSubdivision said:

I knew Lionel Richie would be mentioned and I disagree. The dude went on to prove that he has one of the most versatile voices in all of music post-Commodores. Not everyone can convincingly sing funk, R&B, country, reggae, and other genres of music like Lionel can. In retrospect, it would have been a crime to relegate his vocals just to funk and R&B. And EWF? Wow. So one song ("Boogie Wonderland") off of one album (I Am) makes them a group of sell outs? Get outta here with that. Just because their music at some poiny wasn't as good as it used to be doesn't mean they sold out.

Earth Wind & Fire didnt sell out, as much as two of their main creative forces were no longer with the group after 1980...when Charles Stepney died in 1976, and then Al McKay quit the qroup in 1980-, that left a major void in their rhythm arrangements and songwriting structure, causing Maurice to have to outsource and collaborate with outside writers and producers like sappy David Foster and other less worthy artists...thats when the music started to become formulaic, commercial, and predictable ...shit like the overrated "Lets Groove"...no more innovative stuff like "Fantasy" and "Imagination" and "Serpentine Fire"...i wouldnt say they (Maurice White) consciously sold out though...

[Edited 4/30/15 14:59pm]

"I Am" is the first LP by EW&F to employ alot of outside writers and arrangers and the band wasnt cool with Maurice about that...even though the album still had the great EW&F sound, the band chemistry was ruined and they only did one more LP together ("Faces" - another classic) in that group configuration...."Raise" in 1981 was the first album after songwriter/guitarist/coproducer Al McKay left the band, and it was obvious at that point that EW&F had lost a crucial element in their sound and presentation...and that was 4 years after their great co-producer/arranger, Charles Stepney died

SoulAlive said:

I actually love the I Am album yes,"Boogie Wonderland" is disco,but I think it's good disco.The album is filled with strong songs like "Let Your Feelings Show","Wait","Can't Let Go" and "You And I".This album takes a more 'pop' approach,but I think the results are excellent.

yep...Maurice took alot of flack about "Boogie Wonderland" ...i never understood that because the song and album were so good, it transcended genre..."Cant Let Go" & "You & I" & "Wait", STILL get played at least weekly in my house and car....IMO, it was the overplayed, overrated "Lets Groove", that disappointed me as an EW&F fanatic...

RJOrion said:

thekidsgirl said:

MotownSubdivision said:

I knew Lionel Richie would be mentioned and I disagree. The dude went on to prove that he has one of the most versatile voices in all of music post-Commodores. Not everyone can convincingly sing funk, R&B, country, reggae, and other genres of music like Lionel can. In retrospect, it would have been a crime to relegate his vocals just to funk and R&B.

My usual gripe when people cry "sell-out!", is to ask when is an artist allowed to experiment with his or her art or show some growth without the original fans labelling it sell-out material?

It's one thing if an artisit like a Meshell Ndegeocello were to sign with Rihanna's people and have them start writing and producing her music and styling her; but if jazz performer gets an itch to try making a poppier song, who is to say that that person didn't just crave an artistic challenge.

Your jazz comment reminded me of another brutal sell-out, Stanley Clarke and George Duke doing Sweet Baby. Ouch. By way of comparison the Crusaders did Street Life to cross over but in my opinion still retained a degree of soul and dignity, same goes for Grover Washington's Just the Two of Us. True a lot of the contemporary jazz artists veered into predictable R&B/pop but they usually find a way to circle back to some real jazz (at least by their standards) and in some cases funk.

Just recalled another awful sell-out on the funk side was post-Star Walk album (1979) Larry Graham when he traded in the funk for R&B balladry with One in a Million. He was selling out all the way to the bank. But that kind of reward is relatively shortlived because mass appeal is much more fickle than a core fan base.

SoulAlive said:

It's true that some of these 80s funk bands changed their sound as the 80s arrived,but if they hadn't,would they have even survived in the 80s? Take Kool & The Gang,for example.By the mid-70s,their brand of jazzy funk wasn't really selling anymore.After Open Sesame,they had a few albums that flopped.It was the Ladies Night album in 1979 that brought them back to relevency.I think they made those changes in order to stay afloat,commercially.

Really good point about Kool & the Gang. Their new singer James Taylor helped revitalize them as an act, even if they had to leave most of their funk behind. Get Down on It wasn't too horrible. But compared to Jungle Boogie, Hollywood Swingin' or Love & Understanding? Please.

I've heard that EW&F's Powerlight is also a really good album from after their "classic" period, do you guys tend to concur or not?

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

A lot of the acts mentioned are from the 70/80's. During the 80's they were being pressured by labels to sound more contemporary and, in several cases, many black artists were being told by labels to sound more Pop/Rock because that's where the money and sales were. A wider audience equals more sales.

One artist that no one has mentioned is Tina Turner. A lot of folks in the black community accused her of selling-out post-"Private Dancer". The music busines is a BUSINESS. Any artist with good business sense and a good management team will want to go where they can make the most money and be extended the most opportunities. A woman Tina's age was not going to sell out stadiums world-wide as a headliner if she kept making R&B/Soul records.

As far as Jazz musicians, folks always hollering about jazz purity but at the end of the day, it doesn't sell. Hell, even Miles Davis was a "sell-out" in the 80's. People like George Benson and Kenny G. didn't have much choice but to go in more of a Pop or R&B direction. Which was fine with me because I LOVE all of George's 80's material. I was never really a Kenny G. fan, though.

KingSausage said:

Elton John. Holy shit. His 70's material is amazing and extremely versatile. He first sold out in 1979 with Victim of Love, which is a partial birth abortion set to music. He recovered a bit after that and then kind of kept his shit together throughout the 80s (minus Leather Jackets, which is ass). But then he turned totally adult contemporary. And then came the Lion King. Oh god. Metallica. What a lame transformation. Ozzy. The dark wizard of Sabbath became a silly old bastard cranking out pop metal best suited for Mt. Dew commercials, and then started in a reality show? Bitch, please.

Great additions to the list! What about the Nuge, Ted Nugent when he went from solo success to the likes of Damn Yankees? What happened to the Motor City Madman?

Another one that pops to mind is Neil Diamond, once capable of writing/recording really catchy pop-rock but then drowning in a goopy mess of MOR (middle of the road) tripe.

David Gruel, you mean. To be fair, Nirvana were huge rock stars. Why do you think Kurt bit it?

Prince is the obvious one.

Rod fuckingassholdicksucker Stewart. Talk about a boner.

I slap Ray Charles dissers. lol

Who do you like Hardcorejollies? Watch this.

You may mean this:

Song is lovely.