Scorp said:

There are plenty of artists who have come down the pike who have made memorable, long lasting music well into their late 30s/early 40s, up unto their 50s

Releasing records is not really the same as getting radio hits or being seen on TV. Performers can have long careers with little or no radio/media attention like Bobby Rush, Latimore, Clarence Carter, Don Ho, Denise LaSalle, Little Milton, Buckwheat Zydeco, Wayne Cochran, Marvin Sease, etc. Black Ivory, who were never really that big, released an album in 2011 and is touring now. George Benson hasn't had a big hit single since the 1980s, but has continued to release albums to this day. Some veteran soul/R&B acts get parts in gospel plays. There's local acts that have lasted decades, longer than many household name acts. At any time, out of the thousands of records released every year, only a small percentage become hits or sell a lot. Most genres have survived without Top 40 radio play.

TonyVanDam said:

R&B is suppose to be "rhythm & blues". But for the later half of the 1990's and nearly all of the 2000's, we ended up with "rhythmless bullshit".

Don't believe any of this? Look at the damage Sean Combs did when he invented "hip-hop soul". He took hip-hop beats at a tempo of 95 BPM and have a singer (Mary J Blige, Faith Evans, Total, etc.) perform on it instead of a rapper. At a tragic result, r&b/soul was replace by hip-hop/r&b.

And BTW, Sean copy the 95 BPM idea from Dr. Dre & Warren G. Remember, G-Gunk is basically George Clinton's P-Funk being played at 95 BPM. But that discussion is worthy of its own thread.

Sounds like that episode of WKRP where they change the easy listening station to a rock format and the old folks picketed the station. I think it has less to do with Puffy than with the majors stopped signing R&B bands. Techology made it where someone who couldn't afford an instrument could make a song. Even the earlier bands downsized, got rid of the horns, and either did electro/synth (Cameo), new jack swing (Bar Kays, Gap Band), or AC (Atlantic Starr, Jeffrey Osborne, Isley Brothers). There were groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai who had older sounds, they didn't get the same amount of airplay. Tony! Toni! Toné! combined old R&B with hip hop and had some success, but a majority of the popular R&B were not bands, nor usually had a band playing on it. It was usually LA/Babyface style programmed tracks or by club DJs (Masters At Work, Shep Pettibone) or beatmaker producers. The older listeners who weren't into hip hop or new jack swing gravitated to smooth jazz, which is why Kenny G and Anita Baker became popular. It was counter-programming. The younger based R&B/hip hop stations that came along in the late 1980s didn't play Kenny G and Luther Vandross, but the "urban contemporary" ones did.

Poor Whitney. If anything she re-introduced soul and gospel music to popular music. Popularity with White audience was root of the booos.

vainandy said:

SoulAlive said:

Whitney's first album had several truly soulful songs ("You Give Good Love","Saving All My Love","Thinking About You") but when the follow-up was released,there was a feeling that Whitney's music was becoming too "pop".The album was filled with big,schmaltzy pop numbers like "Didn't We Almost Have It All" and "You're Still My Man".I think this was Clive Davis' intention all along.He wanted her to be the biggest pop superstar on the planet.Didn't he refuse certain songs,saying that they're too "black" sounding?

Before I became more "politically correct" and started calling her Shitney, I used to call her Whiteny. But yeah, he sure did....."You need to tone it down Whitney, you sound too black. You want a crossover pop hit don't you?".....I'd like to put my foot up that old silver balled bastard's ass. If his ass wanted her so damn white, he should have sent her songs to white adult contemporary radio only where she couldn't do any damage. Hell, black adult contemporary radio didn't even exist before she came along.

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.

.

[Edited 11/28/14 6:28am]

Sorry Andy. Whitney crossedover years before with first album. A black singer shouldn't sing popular music, was their issue. Ignorant as it sounds, you don't appear to be any better. It's a testament to Whitney's impact which you not care for. A Black woman singing popular music reaching masses worldwide opened doors. Black adult contempory you are correct, didn't exist before her.

[Edited 12/4/14 17:12pm]

FanofMusic84 said:

vainandy said:

Before I became more "politically correct" and started calling her Shitney, I used to call her Whiteny. But yeah, he sure did....."You need to tone it down Whitney, you sound too black. You want a crossover pop hit don't you?".....I'd like to put my foot up that old silver balled bastard's ass. If his ass wanted her so damn white, he should have sent her songs to white adult contemporary radio only where she couldn't do any damage. Hell, black adult contemporary radio didn't even exist before she came along.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/28/14 6:28am]

Sorry Andy. Whitney crossedover years before with first album. A black singer shouldn't sing popular music, was their issue. Ignorant as it sounds, you don't appear to be any better. It's a testament to Whitney's impact which you not care for. A Black woman singing popular music reaching masses worldwide opened doors. Black adult contempory you are correct, didn't exist before her.

[Edited 12/4/14 17:12pm]

being popular or singing "pop" music is not what caused the reaction to whitney getting booed back the black audience on this award show

the backlash was 4 years in the making because of the image crafted for Whitney by her record label

as early as 1985, when she debuted on teh scene....1.) she was told she looked too ethnic and 2.) she was refrained from conducting any interviews with black radio when it was black record buyers who supported her debut album here in the united states more than anyone else

fast forward 4 years later, w/the black support not feeling acknowledged along w/the image Arista was trying to craft for Whitney, that's what led to teh boos

before "pop" radio supported her debut album, black radio supported it from day one

Scorp said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Sorry Andy. Whitney crossedover years before with first album. A black singer shouldn't sing popular music, was their issue. Ignorant as it sounds, you don't appear to be any better. It's a testament to Whitney's impact which you not care for. A Black woman singing popular music reaching masses worldwide opened doors. Black adult contempory you are correct, didn't exist before her.

[Edited 12/4/14 17:12pm]

being popular or singing "pop" music is not what caused the reaction to whitney getting booed back the black audience on this award show

the backlash was 4 years in the making because of the image crafted for Whitney by her record label

as early as 1985, when she debuted on teh scene....1.) she was told she looked too ethnic and 2.) she was refrained from conducting any interviews with black radio when it was black record buyers who supported her debut album here in the united states more than anyone else

fast forward 4 years later, w/the black support not feeling acknowledged along w/the image Arista was trying to craft for Whitney, that's what led to teh boos

before "pop" radio supported her debut album, black radio supported it from day one

Whitney was the perfect look for mtv, her apparenace helped the crossover. By how will I know she was crossover sensation. The biggest crossover act of her time. The appearance landed her on major mainstream magazine covers as seventeen and various arenas. She was not considered too ethnic, she was the modern "Diana Ross." Interviews were conducted worldwide on popular, on black, on blue and brown radios. What caused the rift was second album being mainly popular music. it didn't cross over to black radio well though album did well on black charts. Clive had her working to appeal to everyone. The people at soul train weren't in radio business, didn't care for radio play. They were booing because of popularity of pop radio. A small amoung felt her popular music was watering soul down which baffles the mind, she reignited soul music back into pop music.

[Edited 12/4/14 18:40pm]

[Edited 12/4/14 18:46pm]

[Edited 12/4/14 18:47pm]

[Edited 12/4/14 18:50pm]

MickyDolenz said:

TonyVanDam said:

R&B is suppose to be "rhythm & blues". But for the later half of the 1990's and nearly all of the 2000's, we ended up with "rhythmless bullshit".

Don't believe any of this? Look at the damage Sean Combs did when he invented "hip-hop soul". He took hip-hop beats at a tempo of 95 BPM and have a singer (Mary J Blige, Faith Evans, Total, etc.) perform on it instead of a rapper. At a tragic result, r&b/soul was replace by hip-hop/r&b.

And BTW, Sean copy the 95 BPM idea from Dr. Dre & Warren G. Remember, G-Gunk is basically George Clinton's P-Funk being played at 95 BPM. But that discussion is worthy of its own thread.

Sounds like that episode of WKRP where they change the easy listening station to a rock format and the old folks picketed the station. I think it has less to do with Puffy than with the majors stopped signing R&B bands. Techology made it where someone who couldn't afford an instrument could make a song. Even the earlier bands downsized, got rid of the horns, and either did electro/synth (Cameo), new jack swing (Bar Kays, Gap Band), or AC (Atlantic Starr, Jeffrey Osborne, Isley Brothers). There were groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai who had older sounds, they didn't get the same amount of airplay. Tony! Toni! Toné! combined old R&B with hip hop and had some success, but a majority of the popular R&B were not bands, nor usually had a band playing on it. It was usually LA/Babyface style programmed tracks or by club DJs (Masters At Work, Shep Pettibone) or beatmaker producers. The older listeners who weren't into hip hop or new jack swing gravitated to smooth jazz, which is why Kenny G and Anita Baker became popular. It was counter-programming. The younger based R&B/hip hop stations that came along in the late 1980s didn't play Kenny G and Luther Vandross, but the "urban contemporary" ones did.

All of THAT^ too!

MickyDolenz said:

TonyVanDam said:

R&B is suppose to be "rhythm & blues". But for the later half of the 1990's and nearly all of the 2000's, we ended up with "rhythmless bullshit".

Don't believe any of this? Look at the damage Sean Combs did when he invented "hip-hop soul". He took hip-hop beats at a tempo of 95 BPM and have a singer (Mary J Blige, Faith Evans, Total, etc.) perform on it instead of a rapper. At a tragic result, r&b/soul was replace by hip-hop/r&b.

And BTW, Sean copy the 95 BPM idea from Dr. Dre & Warren G. Remember, G-Gunk is basically George Clinton's P-Funk being played at 95 BPM. But that discussion is worthy of its own thread.

Sounds like that episode of WKRP where they change the easy listening station to a rock format and the old folks picketed the station. I think it has less to do with Puffy than with the majors stopped signing R&B bands. Techology made it where someone who couldn't afford an instrument could make a song. Even the earlier bands downsized, got rid of the horns, and either did electro/synth (Cameo), new jack swing (Bar Kays, Gap Band), or AC (Atlantic Starr, Jeffrey Osborne, Isley Brothers). There were groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai who had older sounds, they didn't get the same amount of airplay. Tony! Toni! Toné! combined old R&B with hip hop and had some success, but a majority of the popular R&B were not bands, nor usually had a band playing on it. It was usually LA/Babyface style programmed tracks or by club DJs (Masters At Work, Shep Pettibone) or beatmaker producers. The older listeners who weren't into hip hop or new jack swing gravitated to smooth jazz, which is why Kenny G and Anita Baker became popular. It was counter-programming. The younger based R&B/hip hop stations that came along in the late 1980s didn't play Kenny G and Luther Vandross, but the "urban contemporary" ones did.

.

.

Yeah, but if you notice, the sign that one of those old folks is holding says.... "Play Something Slow"....

.

See, that's what I keep telling everyone these days. My generation not liking current music has nothing to do with getting older like those old folks in the picture. Hell, part of getting old is slowing down and becoming more mellow. Hell, if we were to hold signs, it would be the exact opposite and say...."Play Something Fast".

.

I tell ya, a younger generation of R&B listeners that grew up their entire lives on nothing but slow to midtempo music and not even having a desire for anything even remotely rhythmic.....talk about an ass backwards dull ass generation. These brats have became senior citizens decades before their time. That's alright though honey, because my old ass is too young for their tastes.

FanofMusic84 said:

vainandy said:

Before I became more "politically correct" and started calling her Shitney, I used to call her Whiteny. But yeah, he sure did....."You need to tone it down Whitney, you sound too black. You want a crossover pop hit don't you?".....I'd like to put my foot up that old silver balled bastard's ass. If his ass wanted her so damn white, he should have sent her songs to white adult contemporary radio only where she couldn't do any damage. Hell, black adult contemporary radio didn't even exist before she came along.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/28/14 6:28am]

Sorry Andy. Whitney crossedover years before with first album. A black singer shouldn't sing popular music, was their issue. Ignorant as it sounds, you don't appear to be any better. It's a testament to Whitney's impact which you not care for. A Black woman singing popular music reaching masses worldwide opened doors. Black adult contempory you are correct, didn't exist before her.

[Edited 12/4/14 17:12pm]

She can sing any kind of music she wants no matter what color she is. However, if she wanted to make adult contemporary music, she should have been promoted to only adult contemporary radio where she belonged. So black adult contemporary radio didn't exist back then? That's OK, they should have put her ass on white adult contemporary radio. Hell, her little goodie two shoes image she was trying to achieve would have made her fit right in. Every time I saw her, I got the urge to dip her in a glass of milk.

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.

.

[Edited 12/5/14 9:26am]

vainandy said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Sorry Andy. Whitney crossedover years before with first album. A black singer shouldn't sing popular music, was their issue. Ignorant as it sounds, you don't appear to be any better. It's a testament to Whitney's impact which you not care for. A Black woman singing popular music reaching masses worldwide opened doors. Black adult contempory you are correct, didn't exist before her.

[Edited 12/4/14 17:12pm]

She can sing any kind of music she wants no matter what color she is. However, if she wanted to make adult contemporary music, she should have been promoted to only adult contemporary radio where she belonged. So black adult contemporary radio didn't exist back then? That's OK, they should have put her ass on white adult contemporary radio. Hell, her little goodie two shoes image she was trying to achieve would have made her fit right in. Every time I saw her, I got the urge to dip her in a glass of milk.

.

.

.

[Edited 12/5/14 9:26am]

Whitney was an amalgmation of sounds, promoting her music in adult contemporary wouldn't be justifce. You are referring to 2nd best selling female artist of the 80's. Her music wasn't played on just contemporary stations but popular and rhythm and blues stations. Dip her in "milk" she was still chocolate. In some sort, her case is similar to Prince's whose music wasn't heard only on rock and funk stations. Black contemporary didn't exist, it existed as Whitney's popularity reached the plateau in the 80's.

vainandy said:

I tell ya, a younger generation of R&B listeners that grew up their entire lives on nothing but slow to midtempo music and not even having a desire for anything even remotely rhythmic.

What about the "blues" part?

Qazz said:

I think Clive and Arista ignorantly assumed that Whitney wouldn't have to do much to appease black listeners because she was black and had that voice, so they'd automatically embrace her. So instead they worked overtime to make her accessible to white media and listeners, who would be a tougher sell. It took forever for Whitney's first album to be completed because Clive would keep sending her back to replace or re-record songs that sounded "too black." I heard a story about how Whitney's original rendition of "Saving All My Love For You" featured her channeling Aretha and vocally tearing the roof of the joint, and that when Clive heard it, he was like "Hell no. This won't appeal to white listeners, redo it." Ultimately her first album wound up doing a terrific job of balancing both Pop and R&B for both demographics, and as a result it did equally well at both formats -- but her second album didn't. After winning over white folks, her followup album went too far with its pop sound to keep them appeased... and while it maintained her pop success, it lost some of her R&B appeal. Every single from Whitney's debut album hit #1 on the black charts, but none of the singles from 1987's Whitney did (though some of them I think peaked as high as #2.) So, yeah, by the '89 Soul Train Awards, her music had become too watered down and at worst it seemed like she had sold out and at best she just seemed too boring. This is why with her next album Clive loosened the noose, brought in LA Reid & Babyface and Luther Vandross (in addition to retaining her pop sound via Narada Michael Walden) and Whitney was allowed to show off how well she could soulfully belt in ways that she had been stifled from doing before. [Edited 12/5/14 9:54am]

Clive envisioned a universal artist in Whitney. He was opposed to making Whitney too pop or too soulful. Her soul poured on naturally on stage.

The write up brings up an interesting point: was Whitney's image too perfect for African Americans to relate? Was she too clean in the eyes of few? She was additionally one of the top African American females to breakthrough on mtv. Theories of Clive making Whitney innacessible to African Americans is erroneous. The promotional tour and duets with Jermaine Jackson and Kashif were for to gain momentum in markets. The second album were promoted in popular and played on Blacks stations yet the soulful songs weren't promoted as well though a few were successful on the black charts. In reality, the second album may have featured more soulful songs than the first album. In short, the boos were caused by combo cultural matters. Vanessa Willaims wasn't anymore active in Black markets yet she wasn't booed.

[Edited 12/5/14 14:14pm]

FanofMusic84 said:

Qazz said:

I think Clive and Arista ignorantly assumed that Whitney wouldn't have to do much to appease black listeners because she was black and had that voice, so they'd automatically embrace her. So instead they worked overtime to make her accessible to white media and listeners, who would be a tougher sell. It took forever for Whitney's first album to be completed because Clive would keep sending her back to replace or re-record songs that sounded "too black." I heard a story about how Whitney's original rendition of "Saving All My Love For You" featured her channeling Aretha and vocally tearing the roof of the joint, and that when Clive heard it, he was like "Hell no. This won't appeal to white listeners, redo it." Ultimately her first album wound up doing a terrific job of balancing both Pop and R&B for both demographics, and as a result it did equally well at both formats -- but her second album didn't. After winning over white folks, her followup album went too far with its pop sound to keep them appeased... and while it maintained her pop success, it lost some of her R&B appeal. Every single from Whitney's debut album hit #1 on the black charts, but none of the singles from 1987's Whitney did (though some of them I think peaked as high as #2.) So, yeah, by the '89 Soul Train Awards, her music had become too watered down and at worst it seemed like she had sold out and at best she just seemed too boring. This is why with her next album Clive loosened the noose, brought in LA Reid & Babyface and Luther Vandross (in addition to retaining her pop sound via Narada Michael Walden) and Whitney was allowed to show off how well she could soulfully belt in ways that she had been stifled from doing before. [Edited 12/5/14 9:54am]

Clive envisioned a universal artist in Whitney. He was opposed to making Whitney too pop or too soulful. Her soul poured on naturally on stage.

The write up brings up an interesting point: was Whitney's image too perfect for African Americans to relate? Was she too clean in the eyes of few? She was additionally one of the top African American females to breakthrough on mtv. Theories of Clive making Whitney innacessible to African Americans is erroneous. The promotional tour and duets with Jermaine Jackson and Kashif were for to gain momentum in markets. The second album were promoted in popular and played on Blacks stations yet the soulful songs weren't promoted as well though a few were successful on the black charts. In reality, the second album may have featured more soulful songs than the first album. In short, the boos were caused by combo cultural matters. Vanessa Willaims wasn't anymore active in Black markets yet she wasn't booed.

[Edited 12/5/14 14:14pm]

this is the problem...when the truth is expressed about a situation, particularly when the cause of a circumstance is highlighted, then it gets rejected or disregarded

too show that point

u just mentioned her 2nd album featured more soulful songs than her first which I agree

so the backlash wasn't as much about the music in of itself but the presentation of the music and its artists in regards to the crafting on her image, not just the image, but what it spoke of and how it made her original supporting audience feel alienated

it wasn't as much about Whitney being booed as much as it was about the people associated with her career pushing her in a direction that was counterproductive......

it was brewing for years from miles away...

was it right?....no it wasn't...but I understood why

she was told by her record lable she looked to ethnic after releasing her debut album

that shouldn't be hard to believe

as recent as 2012, olympic gold medalist Gabby Douglas, at 16 was told by a manager of hers to get a nose job in order to gain more endorsements and her ponytail made her look to ethnic

http://madamenoire.com/210232/it-gets-worse-gabby-douglas-says-gym-staff-member-told-her-to-get-a-nose-job/

[Edited 12/5/14 16:48pm]

Scorp said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Clive envisioned a universal artist in Whitney. He was opposed to making Whitney too pop or too soulful. Her soul poured on naturally on stage.

The write up brings up an interesting point: was Whitney's image too perfect for African Americans to relate? Was she too clean in the eyes of few? She was additionally one of the top African American females to breakthrough on mtv. Theories of Clive making Whitney innacessible to African Americans is erroneous. The promotional tour and duets with Jermaine Jackson and Kashif were for to gain momentum in markets. The second album were promoted in popular and played on Blacks stations yet the soulful songs weren't promoted as well though a few were successful on the black charts. In reality, the second album may have featured more soulful songs than the first album. In short, the boos were caused by combo cultural matters. Vanessa Willaims wasn't anymore active in Black markets yet she wasn't booed.

[Edited 12/5/14 14:14pm]

this is the problem...when the truth is expressed about a situation, particularly when the cause of a circumstance is highlighted, then it gets rejected or disregarded

too show that point

u just mentioned her 2nd album featured more soulful songs than her first which I agree

so the backlash wasn't as much about the music in of itself but the presentation of the music and its artists in regards to the crafting on her image, not just the image, but what it spoke of and how it made her original supporting audience feel alienated

it wasn't as much about Whitney being booed as much as it was about the people associated with her career pushing her in a direction that was counterproductive......

it was brewing for years from miles away...

was it right?....no it wasn't...but I understood why

she was told by her record lable she looked to ethnic after releasing her debut album

that shouldn't be hard to believe

as recent as 2012, olympic gold medalist Gabby Douglas, at 16 was told by a manager of hers to get a nose job in order to gain more endorsements and her ponytail made her look to ethnic

http://madamenoire.com/210232/it-gets-worse-gabby-douglas-says-gym-staff-member-told-her-to-get-a-nose-job/

[Edited 12/5/14 16:48pm]

African Americans population have a long history of giving hell to Black stars reaching crossover fame. You have to know the real history. The write up discusses this, was Whitney too perfect?

Whitney's debut and sophomore albums were catered to similar audiences. She was coveted in magazines and pegged as the next diana ross for her image. Her image gave her the universal appeal to crossover. The boos were certainly about the music, fueled with crabs in barral mentality. The comparison to Gabby Doughlas is futile.Whitney did not get nose job, boob job, bleach skin. Crossover success came to her easily due to her beauty; looks and music. They were booing because she wasn't singing full rhythmn and blues like Black woman should. She spoke too proper. She didn't jirate on stage when danced. She was pop star Whitney. That was the basis of 'selling out' which Prince as well been labelled.

[Edited 12/5/14 17:54pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:01pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:17pm]

FanofMusic84 said:

Whitney did not get boob job

Not sure about that

FanofMusic84 said:

Scorp said:

this is the problem...when the truth is expressed about a situation, particularly when the cause of a circumstance is highlighted, then it gets rejected or disregarded

too show that point

u just mentioned her 2nd album featured more soulful songs than her first which I agree

so the backlash wasn't as much about the music in of itself but the presentation of the music and its artists in regards to the crafting on her image, not just the image, but what it spoke of and how it made her original supporting audience feel alienated

it wasn't as much about Whitney being booed as much as it was about the people associated with her career pushing her in a direction that was counterproductive......

it was brewing for years from miles away...

was it right?....no it wasn't...but I understood why

she was told by her record lable she looked to ethnic after releasing her debut album

that shouldn't be hard to believe

as recent as 2012, olympic gold medalist Gabby Douglas, at 16 was told by a manager of hers to get a nose job in order to gain more endorsements and her ponytail made her look to ethnic

http://madamenoire.com/210232/it-gets-worse-gabby-douglas-says-gym-staff-member-told-her-to-get-a-nose-job/

[Edited 12/5/14 16:48pm]

African Americans population have a long history of giving hell to Black stars reaching crossover fame. You have to know the real history. The write up discusses this, was Whitney too perfect?

Whitney's debut and sophomore albums were catered to similar audiences. She was coveted in magazines and pegged as the next diana ross for her image. Her image gave her the universal appeal to crossover. The boos were certainly about the music, fueled with crabs in barral mentality. The comparison to Gabby Doughlas is futile.Whitney did not get nose job, boob job, bleach skin. Crossover success came to her easily due to her beauty; looks and music. They were booing because she wasn't singing full rhythmn and blues like Black woman should. She spoke too proper. She didn't jirate on stage when danced. She was pop star Whitney. That was the basis of 'selling out' which Prince as well been labelled.

[Edited 12/5/14 17:54pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:01pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:17pm]

the real problem is that we are overlooking what this is really all about

what happened to Whitney is very similar to what happened to Lionel Richie, and what happened to Michael Jackson, and Prince to a degree

all 4 artists were black, all 4 were the premier black artists of the 80s

all 4 reached their greatest success during this decade

it's not about the style of music as much as it is about the presentation of the artist which may lead to a sudden deviation in style

MIchael Jackson performed BEAT IT, which was a rock oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts because of its authenticity

Lionel Richie performed ALL NIGHT LONG, a reggae/caribbean/latin beat oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts

Whitney Houston's GREATEST LOVE OF ALL, was more of an eclectic song, inspirational based, but reached the top of the R&B charts

Prince's LET'S GO CRAZY, would probably be viewed as a rock oriented song, but reached the top of the R&B charts

the core root problem is that from the mid 60s up until the mid 80s, the crossover movement gave way to the Pop Ascenscion which kicked off in the late 80s, and it did not allow premier black artists to function properly where balance between maintaining the support of their original following along with garnering a new generation of music followers to exist simultaneously, where when they officially "crossed over", it was done so in a manner that alienated their black support who set the foundation for them to achieve what they did during the height of their careers

and then when the current generation of music followers look back in time and come across this clip of black fans booing Whitney, they're not being informed the full context of why it happened and just conclude black people were just being harsh, viewing the effect w/out considering the cause of what led to it

if the recording industry didn't encouraged those artists, particularly Whitney, MJ, and Richie, to seek crossover success exclusively, Whitney never would have gotten booed

when your record company tells u that u look too ethnic and encourage you to change your look, to refrain from conducting any interviews with black entertainment sources (which is what happened in Whitney's case) that artist is already being set up for major backlash, especially when the industry had already segmented the airwaves decades before when it comes to the issue of race

It's ugly, no doubt about it....but it's real

[Edited 12/5/14 19:12pm]

Qazz said:

I think Clive and Arista ignorantly assumed that Whitney wouldn't have to do much to appease black listeners because she was black and had that voice, so they'd automatically embrace her. So instead they worked overtime to make her accessible to white media and listeners, who would be a tougher sell. It took forever for Whitney's first album to be completed because Clive would keep sending her back to replace or re-record songs that sounded "too black." I heard a story about how Whitney's original rendition of "Saving All My Love For You" featured her channeling Aretha and vocally tearing the roof of the joint, and that when Clive heard it, he was like "Hell no. This won't appeal to white listeners, redo it."

I hate hearing stories like this.Would love to hear that original version!

MickyDolenz said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Whitney did not get boob job

Not sure about that

I mean initially when she debut. Obviously the breast enhancement were in late stage of life for her personal pleasure not for record label.

The problem with Clive Davis is....he only sees dollar signs.There have been other examples of him taking an outstanding R&B artist and "watering down" their material,so that they can appeal to different audiences.Before Whitney,he did the same thing with Phyllis Hyman.She was such an incredible R&B/jazz vocalist but in the late 70s,Clive got Barry Manilow (!) to produce an album for her.He wanted her to do more pop material.This strategy may have worked with Dionne Warwick,but Phyllis was a different type of artist....a jazzy/Quiet Storm/real soul-type of singer.Pop wasn't her thing.

Scorp said:

FanofMusic84 said:

African Americans population have a long history of giving hell to Black stars reaching crossover fame. You have to know the real history. The write up discusses this, was Whitney too perfect?

Whitney's debut and sophomore albums were catered to similar audiences. She was coveted in magazines and pegged as the next diana ross for her image. Her image gave her the universal appeal to crossover. The boos were certainly about the music, fueled with crabs in barral mentality. The comparison to Gabby Doughlas is futile.Whitney did not get nose job, boob job, bleach skin. Crossover success came to her easily due to her beauty; looks and music. They were booing because she wasn't singing full rhythmn and blues like Black woman should. She spoke too proper. She didn't jirate on stage when danced. She was pop star Whitney. That was the basis of 'selling out' which Prince as well been labelled.

[Edited 12/5/14 17:54pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:01pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 18:17pm]

the real problem is that we are overlooking what this is really all about

what happened to Whitney is very similar to what happened to Lionel Richie, and what happened to Michael Jackson, and Prince to a degree

all 4 artists were black, all 4 were the premier black artists of the 80s

all 4 reached their greatest success during this decade

it's not about the style of music as much as it is about the presentation of the artist which may lead to a sudden deviation in style

MIchael Jackson performed BEAT IT, which was a rock oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts because of its authenticity

Lionel Richie performed ALL NIGHT LONG, a reggae/caribbean/latin beat oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts

Whitney Houston's GREATEST LOVE OF ALL, was more of an eclectic song, inspirational based, but reached the top of the R&B charts

Prince's LET'S GO CRAZY, would probably be viewed as a rock oriented song, but reached the top of the R&B charts

the core root problem is that from the mid 60s up until the mid 80s, the crossover movement gave way to the Pop Ascenscion which kicked off in the late 80s, and it did not allow premier black artists to function properly where balance between maintaining the support of their original following along with garnering a new generation of music followers to exist simultaneously, where when they officially "crossed over", it was done so in a manner that alienated their black support who set the foundation for them to achieve what they did during the height of their careers

and then when the current generation of music followers look back in time and come across this clip of black fans booing Whitney, they're not being informed the full context of why it happened and just conclude black people were just being harsh, viewing the effect w/out considering the cause of what led to it

if the recording industry didn't encouraged those artists, particularly Whitney, MJ, and Richie, to seek crossover success exclusively, Whitney never would have gotten booed

when your record company tells u that u look too ethnic and encourage you to change your look, to refrain from conducting any interviews with black entertainment sources (which is what happened in Whitney's case) that artist is already being set up for major backlash, especially when the industry had already segmented the airwaves decades before when it comes to the issue of race

It's ugly, no doubt about it....but it's real

[Edited 12/5/14 19:12pm]

Crossing over isn't to alienate Blacks. African Americans desired their artists to be pigeonheld and pander to Black markets which was a faulty thinking. Whitney was more successful on r&b charts then pop charts. The second album is released and she is all over pop charts, black audience feel they've lost her, she turned her back. That was the root of it all. Whitney and MJ attended Soul train awards because Blacks were most loyal supporters. 3 of the biggest Black crossover stars, deemed "sell outs" merely for making popular music and crossing over? That is very small thinking. The record label created Whitney's image. Whitney didn't buy hair and clothes. You insist they saw her as too ethnic beats me. Compare How will I know on debut album to I want to dance with somebody who loves me on second album, she was modeleque in the videos. Do you have a major article proclaiming Whitney as too ethnic? No, because it wasn't so. The boos were rubbish and for shallow excuses.

[Edited 12/5/14 19:45pm]

SoulAlive said:

The problem with Clive Davis is....he only sees dollar signs.There have been other examples of him taking an outstanding R&B artist and "watering down" their material,so that they can appeal to different audiences.Before Whitney,he did the same thing with Phyllis Hyman.She was such an incredible R&B/jazz vocalist but in the late 70s,Clive got Barry Manilow (!) to produce an album for her.He wanted her to do more pop material.This strategy may have worked with Dionne Warwick,but Phyllis was a different type of artist....a jazzy/Quiet Storm/real soul-type of singer.Pop wasn't her thing.

Clive modelled Whitney after Dionne Warwick and Diana Ross. Whitney was naturally more soulful yet she is the best pop singer in history. It helped as Whitney had more pop appeal and universal appeal than Phyllis. Phyllis style wasn't interested in singing pop, her weight;mental issues were problematic. Clive and Phyllis butted heads on all things.

[Edited 12/5/14 19:52pm]

FanofMusic84 said:

Scorp said:

the real problem is that we are overlooking what this is really all about

what happened to Whitney is very similar to what happened to Lionel Richie, and what happened to Michael Jackson, and Prince to a degree

all 4 artists were black, all 4 were the premier black artists of the 80s

all 4 reached their greatest success during this decade

it's not about the style of music as much as it is about the presentation of the artist which may lead to a sudden deviation in style

MIchael Jackson performed BEAT IT, which was a rock oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts because of its authenticity

Lionel Richie performed ALL NIGHT LONG, a reggae/caribbean/latin beat oriented song but reached #1 on the R&B charts

Whitney Houston's GREATEST LOVE OF ALL, was more of an eclectic song, inspirational based, but reached the top of the R&B charts

Prince's LET'S GO CRAZY, would probably be viewed as a rock oriented song, but reached the top of the R&B charts

the core root problem is that from the mid 60s up until the mid 80s, the crossover movement gave way to the Pop Ascenscion which kicked off in the late 80s, and it did not allow premier black artists to function properly where balance between maintaining the support of their original following along with garnering a new generation of music followers to exist simultaneously, where when they officially "crossed over", it was done so in a manner that alienated their black support who set the foundation for them to achieve what they did during the height of their careers

and then when the current generation of music followers look back in time and come across this clip of black fans booing Whitney, they're not being informed the full context of why it happened and just conclude black people were just being harsh, viewing the effect w/out considering the cause of what led to it

if the recording industry didn't encouraged those artists, particularly Whitney, MJ, and Richie, to seek crossover success exclusively, Whitney never would have gotten booed

when your record company tells u that u look too ethnic and encourage you to change your look, to refrain from conducting any interviews with black entertainment sources (which is what happened in Whitney's case) that artist is already being set up for major backlash, especially when the industry had already segmented the airwaves decades before when it comes to the issue of race

It's ugly, no doubt about it....but it's real

[Edited 12/5/14 19:12pm]

Crossing over isn't to alienate Blacks. African Americans wanted their artists to be pigeonheld and pander to Black markets which was a faulty thinking. Whitney was more successful on r&b charts then pop charts. The second album is released and she is all over pop charts, black audience feel they've lost her, she turned her back. Whitney and MJ attended Soul train awards because Blacks were most loyal supporters. 3 of the biggest Black crossover stars, deemed "sell outs" merely for making popular music and crossing over? That is very small thinking. The record label created Whitney's image. Whitney didn't buy hair and clothes. You insist they saw her as too ethnic beats me, the label created that look. Compare How will I know on first album to I want to dance with somebody who loves me on second album, she was modeleque in the videos. Do you have a major article proclaiming Whitney as too ethnic? No, because it wasn't so. The boos were rubbish and for shallow excuses.

see, that's why the industry is headed where it is, and that's into oblivion because it has exercised major miscalculations w/sole focus on record sales rather than cultivating talent and promoting authenticity

to say the response to those black artists "crossing over" was small thinking.......the crossing over aspect in of itself, just the term itself is offensive when u think about it...

...what exactly are u crossing over too

based on its construct, "crossing over" suggest one audience should be held in higher esteem than the next......that automatically creates a juxtaposition way before the backlash even happens

if things were allowed to be presented in genuine context, there wouldn't be a need to encourage anyone to crossover, there would never be a sense of alienation

it would be a situation where whoever enjoys your music will support it w/out any form of pretense

I don't have to make anything up because it just so happened I lived during a time growing up where I was able to witness this stuff firsthand

Whitney Houston wasn't the only black artist who was encourage to change his/her look...there's a plethora of black artists from the late 70s/early 80s, artists of which their record labels felt they had "crossover appeal" were encouraged to modify their look to appeal to white audiences exclusively.....

that in of itself was wrong

[Edited 12/5/14 20:09pm]

sometimes,when you crossover...you can't cross back---George Clinton

Scorp said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Crossing over isn't to alienate Blacks. African Americans wanted their artists to be pigeonheld and pander to Black markets which was a faulty thinking. Whitney was more successful on r&b charts then pop charts. The second album is released and she is all over pop charts, black audience feel they've lost her, she turned her back. Whitney and MJ attended Soul train awards because Blacks were most loyal supporters. 3 of the biggest Black crossover stars, deemed "sell outs" merely for making popular music and crossing over? That is very small thinking. The record label created Whitney's image. Whitney didn't buy hair and clothes. You insist they saw her as too ethnic beats me, the label created that look. Compare How will I know on first album to I want to dance with somebody who loves me on second album, she was modeleque in the videos. Do you have a major article proclaiming Whitney as too ethnic? No, because it wasn't so. The boos were rubbish and for shallow excuses.

see, that's why the industry is headed where it is, and that's into oblivion because it has exercised major miscalculations w/sole focus on record sales rather than cultivating talent and promoting authenticity

to say the response to those black artists "crossing over" was small thinking.......the crossing over aspect in of itself, just the term itself is offensive when u think about it...

...what exactly are u crossing over too

based on its construct, "crossing over" suggest one audience should be held in higher esteem than the next......that automatically creates a juxtaposition way before the backlash even happens

if things were allowed to be presented in genuine context, there wouldn't be a need to encourage anyone to crossover, there would never be a sense of alienation

it would be a situation where whoever enjoys your music will support it w/out any form of pretense

I don't have to make anything up because it just so happened I lived during a time growing up where I was able to witness this stuff firsthand

Whitney Houston wasn't the only black artist who was encourage to change his/her look...there's a plethora of black artists from the late 70s/early 80s, artists of which their record labels felt they had "crossover appeal" were encouraged to modify their look to appeal to white audiences exclusively.....

that in of itself was wrong

[Edited 12/5/14 20:09pm]

Black artists being successful in other markets were considered threats to Black culture.

However, Whitney's instantly reached pop success from onset of her career.You give good love was not for pop markets, it naturally crossed over to pop charts as it appealed to pop markets. There was no shunning of her core Black base, or appealing exclusively to Whites. Whitney's music appealed to all ethnicities. Black, Whites, brown, orange. Most artists modify their looks in a visionary world. Visually, Whitney didn't do masive makeover ala like Janet Jackson. The term crossing aspect over were coined by Blacks. That's part of the problem. Interestingly, a lighter Whitney clone in Mariah Carey wasn't faced with this issue.

[Edited 12/5/14 20:58pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 21:03pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 21:07pm]

SoulAlive said:

sometimes,when you crossover...you can't cross back---George Clinton

Music is too universal for this mindset.

[Edited 12/5/14 21:04pm]

FanofMusic84 said:

SoulAlive said:

sometimes,when you crossover...you can't cross back---George Clinton

Music is too universal for this mindset.

I understand what he means,though

SoulAlive said:

FanofMusic84 said:

Music is too universal for this mindset.

I understand what he means,though

As do I. To think of all the great Blacks artists who endured similar cases of backlash solely for achieving pop success is disheartning. Prince, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Diana Ross, Dionne Warwick, Whitney all faced it.

[Edited 12/5/14 21:22pm]

[Edited 12/5/14 21:24pm]

vainandy said:

MickyDolenz said:

Sounds like that episode of WKRP where they change the easy listening station to a rock format and the old folks picketed the station. I think it has less to do with Puffy than with the majors stopped signing R&B bands. Techology made it where someone who couldn't afford an instrument could make a song. Even the earlier bands downsized, got rid of the horns, and either did electro/synth (Cameo), new jack swing (Bar Kays, Gap Band), or AC (Atlantic Starr, Jeffrey Osborne, Isley Brothers). There were groups like Brand New Heavies and Jamiroquai who had older sounds, they didn't get the same amount of airplay. Tony! Toni! Toné! combined old R&B with hip hop and had some success, but a majority of the popular R&B were not bands, nor usually had a band playing on it. It was usually LA/Babyface style programmed tracks or by club DJs (Masters At Work, Shep Pettibone) or beatmaker producers. The older listeners who weren't into hip hop or new jack swing gravitated to smooth jazz, which is why Kenny G and Anita Baker became popular. It was counter-programming. The younger based R&B/hip hop stations that came along in the late 1980s didn't play Kenny G and Luther Vandross, but the "urban contemporary" ones did.

.

.

Yeah, but if you notice, the sign that one of those old folks is holding says.... "Play Something Slow"....

.

See, that's what I keep telling everyone these days. My generation not liking current music has nothing to do with getting older like those old folks in the picture. Hell, part of getting old is slowing down and becoming more mellow. Hell, if we were to hold signs, it would be the exact opposite and say...."Play Something Fast".

.

I tell ya, a younger generation of R&B listeners that grew up their entire lives on nothing but slow to midtempo music and not even having a desire for anything even remotely rhythmic.....talk about an ass backwards dull ass generation. These brats have became senior citizens decades before their time. That's alright though honey, because my old ass is too young for their tastes.

I see it!