Qazz said:

Not everything has to be - or needs to be - obnoxiously upbeat all the time. Some people appreciate and may even prefer (gasp!) a relaxing ballad or mid tempo that showcases emotion and notes. That being said, "The Right Stuff" is one of Vanessa's least memorable songs and 25 years later is EASILY the most forgotten song nominated in that category. The rest of the nominated songs are iconic today...TRS, not so much.

Of course "The Right Stuff" is the most forgotten song nominated that year because it's the only actual jam that was nominated that year. People stopped jamming after the 1980s and the only thing that remained in the mainstream was adult contemporary and shit hop that has a tempo just as slow, dull, rhythmless, and lifeless as adult contemporary. The other three songs nominated that year have been played to death and worn out on the radio ever since then and still today because they fit the format that radio changed to once people stopped knowing how to throwdown anymore. Hell, even Vanessa Williams herself later began making music just as dull as the other three, with the exception of "Running Back To You".

.

The fact that a song like "The Right Stuff" would be almost totally forgotten these days and the three snoozefest songs nominated are fully remembered and played on a daily basis is not a good thing, that's a problem and Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes' influence on artists that came after her had a lot to contribute to the problem. Black radio these days sounds more like "The Lawrence Welk Show" rather than "Soul Train".

TonyVanDam said:

vainandy said:

See what I mean. See how the little goodie two shoes changed things for the worst. And they're not even sexy after midnight ....."come home drunk from a club and bring a stranger home at 3 a.m." .....type slow jams either. They're parent friendly ....."sit on the couch and talk with mama, grandma, and whole family while drinking lemonade and watching the children run around and play on a dull Sunday afternoon with beams of bright ass sunlight shining through the windows while dreading going back to work the next day" ....adult contemporary type slow songs.

.

Those nominees were three of the dullest ones they could have picked. I'm suprised Mikki Howard's dull ass wasn't the fourth nominee. Vanessa Williams definitely should have won that one. "The Right Stuff" is the best song she ever made and she jammed her ass off on that one.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/28/14 6:14am]

You would have hated being in New Orleans East within the summer of 1988-89 when Karyn White's Superwoman was playing and a bunch of black girls were singing THAT song in unison while braiding each other hair!

Oh Lord, I hate that damn song and always have. It's one of those "chick songs" that reminds me of "chick things" such as daytime soap operas, the Lifetime Network movies, or a bunch of old hens sitting around watching Oprah and complaining about their husbands leaving the toilet seat up.

phunkdaddy said:

vainandy said:

See what I mean. See how the little goodie two shoes changed things for the worst. And they're not even sexy after midnight ....."come home drunk from a club and bring a stranger home at 3 a.m." .....type slow jams either. They're parent friendly ....."sit on the couch and talk with mama, grandma, and whole family while drinking lemonade and watching the children run around and play on a dull Sunday afternoon with beams of bright ass sunlight shining through the windows while dreading going back to work the next day" ....adult contemporary type slow songs.

.

Those nominees were three of the dullest ones they could have picked. I'm suprised Mikki Howard's dull ass wasn't the fourth nominee. Vanessa Williams definitely should have won that one. "The Right Stuff" is the best song she ever made and she jammed her ass off on that one.

.

.

.

[Edited 11/28/14 6:14am]

I can't say whether or not Whitney started the whole adult contemporary format in the mid eighties but she sure as hell made it fashionable. Even Anita Baker followed suit after her Beverly Glen days. I was okay with Miki Howard because some of her stuff had a jazzy feel to it but some of her material didn't age well.

Actually, Anita Baker's music bores me twice as much as the little Miss Goodie Two Shoes but I don't think Anita would have been near as successful if Miss Goodie Good had not opened the doors for dull to take over. At least Miss Goodie Two Shoes had a few uptempo numbers that could provide entertainment from watching her doing those "stiff white girl" moves trying to dance to it. Honey, she made those American Bandstand dancers look like Soul Train dancers in comparison to her moves. With Anita though, with the exception of "No More Tears", everything I've ever heard from her is boring as hell. It all sounds like stuff that people sit around sipping wine and listening to "smooth jazz" and then when her records finish playing, they throw on some Kenny G. Sitting around with their noses so far up in the air that they can't smell the funk anymore.

TonyVanDam said:

UnderMySun said:

vainandy said:

Qazz said:

Not everything has to be - or needs to be - obnoxiously upbeat all the time. Some people appreciate and may even prefer (gasp!) a relaxing ballad or mid tempo that showcases emotion and notes. That being said, "The Right Stuff" is one of Vanessa's least memorable songs and 25 years later is EASILY the most forgotten song nominated in that category. The rest of the nominated songs are iconic today...TRS, not so much.

Of course "The Right Stuff" is the most forgotten song nominated that year because it's the only actual jam that was nominated that year. People stopped jamming after the 1980s and the only thing that remained in the mainstream was adult contemporary and shit hop that has a tempo just as slow, dull, rhythmless, and lifeless as adult contemporary. The other three songs nominated that year have been played to death and worn out on the radio ever since then and still today because they fit the format that radio changed to once people stopped knowing how to throwdown anymore. Hell, even Vanessa Williams herself later began making music just as dull as the other three, with the exception of "Running Back To You".

.

The fact that a song like "The Right Stuff" would be almost totally forgotten these days and the three snoozefest songs nominated are fully remembered and played on a daily basis is not a good thing, that's a problem and Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes' influence on artists that came after her had a lot to contribute to the problem. Black radio these days sounds more like "The Lawrence Welk Show" rather than "Soul Train".

You seem to have a very personal vendetta against any kind of music that isn't steeped in early 80s dance/funk. As if in your mind hip hop and Whitney Houston came around and invalidated the music of your coming of age and now decades later you're still jilted over having been displaced by those damn 70s babies (who are now in their 40s). Sorry, but that SOLAR sound played out 30 years ago and the music listening and buying public moved on. Hey, I feel the same way about Katy Perry, Gaga and Rihanna...maybe if those hoes hadn't come around, I'd be hearing more MJB "Be Without You's" and Usher "These are my confessions" type jams on the radio, but it is what it is.

TonyVanDam said:

Now seriously, I like it a lot better when the genre was called soft rock and Olivia Newton-John was queen of it. Soft Rock didn't change to adult contemporary until it gotten closer to the 1990's. Maybe Whitney does get some of the blame for killing the rock in soft rock.

The "adult contemporary" format became popular in the 1970s with records like Torn Between Two Lovers, Feelings, With You I'm Born Again, Reunited, You Light Up My Life, Three Times A Lady, Babe, etc. and acts light Engelbert Humperdinck, Neil Diamond, Barry Manilow, Kenny Loggins, and Gordon Lightfoot. Right after the early 1970s James Taylor/Carole King/John Denver/Seals & Crofts singer-songwriter era which was kinda folky and soft sounding. AC songs were used in daytime soap operas and romantic movie soundtracks. AC tended to be more popular with women and AOR with males. The 1970s is also when Muzak became a big thing in stores. Before the mid-1970s, this might have been called "beautiful music" or "easy listening" like Dean Martin music. "Soft rock" aka "light rock" were not radio formats, just a genre of music. The R&B equivalent would be the "Quiet Storm" programs started after the Smokey Robinson song came out and acts like Maze, Roberta Flack, & Peabo Bryson. Quiet Storm is the main reason acts like The Isley Brothers are known as slow jam groups today and its the beginning of the later "urban contemporary" format. After Top 40 stopped playing disco, AC really took over and there was Christopher Cross, Air Supply, and Sheena Easton's early records. Dionne Warwick made a chart comback with a Barry Manilow produced album with hits like Deja Vu.

SoulAlive said:

Whitney's first album had several truly soulful songs ("You Give Good Love","Saving All My Love","Thinking About You") but when the follow-up was released,there was a feeling that Whitney's music was becoming too "pop".The album was filled with big,schmaltzy pop numbers like "Didn't We Almost Have It All" and "You're Still My Man".I think this was Clive Davis' intention all along.He wanted her to be the biggest pop superstar on the planet.Didn't he refuse certain songs,saying that they're too "black" sounding?

Clive Davis is scum, pure and simple.

Qazz said:

vainandy said:

Of course "The Right Stuff" is the most forgotten song nominated that year because it's the only actual jam that was nominated that year. People stopped jamming after the 1980s and the only thing that remained in the mainstream was adult contemporary and shit hop that has a tempo just as slow, dull, rhythmless, and lifeless as adult contemporary. The other three songs nominated that year have been played to death and worn out on the radio ever since then and still today because they fit the format that radio changed to once people stopped knowing how to throwdown anymore. Hell, even Vanessa Williams herself later began making music just as dull as the other three, with the exception of "Running Back To You".

.

The fact that a song like "The Right Stuff" would be almost totally forgotten these days and the three snoozefest songs nominated are fully remembered and played on a daily basis is not a good thing, that's a problem and Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes' influence on artists that came after her had a lot to contribute to the problem. Black radio these days sounds more like "The Lawrence Welk Show" rather than "Soul Train".

You seem to have a very personal vendetta against any kind of music that isn't steeped in early 80s dance/funk. As if in your mind hip hop and Whitney Houston came around and invalidated the music of your coming of age and now decades later you're still jilted over having been displaced by those damn 70s babies (who are now in their 40s). Sorry, but that SOLAR sound played out 30 years ago and the music listening and buying public moved on. Hey, I feel the same way about Katy Perry, Gaga and Rihanna...maybe if those hoes hadn't come around, I'd be hearing more MJB "Be Without You's" and Usher "These are my confessions" type jams on the radio, but it is what it is.

But modern day artists like Daft Punk & Bruno Mars are bring that uptempo music back. I like the idea that it's inspired by the SOLAR sound, Prince's classic MPLS sounds, and Chic's classic disco/dance-funk sound.

MickyDolenz said:

TonyVanDam said:

Now seriously, I like it a lot better when the genre was called soft rock and Olivia Newton-John was queen of it. Soft Rock didn't change to adult contemporary until it gotten closer to the 1990's. Maybe Whitney does get some of the blame for killing the rock in soft rock.

The "adult contemporary" format became popular in the 1970s with records like Torn Between Two Lovers, Feelings, With You I'm Born Again, Reunited, You Light Up My Life, Three Times A Lady, Babe, etc. and acts light Engelbert Humperdinck, Neil Diamond, Barry Manilow, Kenny Loggins, and Gordon Lightfoot. Right after the early 1970s James Taylor/Carole King/John Denver/Seals & Crofts singer-songwriter era which was kinda folky and soft sounding. AC songs were used in daytime soap operas and romantic movie soundtracks. AC tended to be more popular with women and AOR with males. The 1970s is also when Muzak became a big thing in stores. Before the mid-1970s, this might have been called "beautiful music" or "easy listening" like Dean Martin music. "Soft rock" aka "light rock" were not radio formats, just a genre of music. The R&B equivalent would be the "Quiet Storm" programs started after the Smokey Robinson song came out and acts like Maze, Roberta Flack, & Peabo Bryson. Quiet Storm is the main reason acts like The Isley Brothers are known as slow jam groups today and its the beginning of the later "urban contemporary" format. After Top 40 stopped playing disco, AC really took over and there was Christopher Cross, Air Supply, and Sheena Easton's early records. Dionne Warwick made a chart comback with a Barry Manilow produced album with hits like Deja Vu.

However, I wouldn't dare place Quiet Storm in the same sentence as Soft Rock. To my ears, Quiet Storm was soulful and even funky at time. Right after listening to Prince's Do Me Baby & Adore, The Isley's Between The Sheets, Teena Marie's Dear Lover & If I Were A Bell, and Zapp's Computer Lover, there is no way anyone can place these acts in the same sentence with any artist from the Soft Rock genre.

And "urban contemporary" are choice words used by label record execs and music critics that regretted using the words "neo-soul" from years earliers.

TonyVanDam said:

However, I wouldn't dare place Quiet Storm in the same sentence as Soft Rock. To my ears, Quiet Storm was soulful and even funky at time. Right after listening to Prince's Do Me Baby & Adore, The Isley's Between The Sheets, Teena Marie's Dear Lover & If I Were A Bell, and Zapp's Computer Lover, there is no way anyone can place these acts in the same sentence with any artist from the Soft Rock genre.

There's nothing wrong with adult contemporary. I like AC, light rock, easy listening and even Muzak. I don't consider them "bland" or "cheesy" or "whitebread" like people on this site. I don't care about songs being soulful or funky, like that makes a song better. Not everyone in the world listens to R&B and funk.

MickyDolenz said:

TonyVanDam said:

However, I wouldn't dare place Quiet Storm in the same sentence as Soft Rock. To my ears, Quiet Storm was soulful and even funky at time. Right after listening to Prince's Do Me Baby & Adore, The Isley's Between The Sheets, Teena Marie's Dear Lover & If I Were A Bell, and Zapp's Computer Lover, there is no way anyone can place these acts in the same sentence with any artist from the Soft Rock genre.

There's nothing wrong with adult contemporary. I like AC, light rock, easy listening and even Muzak. I don't consider them "bland" or "cheesy" or "whitebread" like people on this site. I don't care about songs being soulful or funky, like that makes a song better. Not everyone in the world listens to R&B and funk.

Fair enough. I hope to see you in the org for the very next thread about The Carpenters.

TonyVanDam said:

Fair enough. I hope to see you in the org for the very next thread about The Carpenters.

I've made threads about Richard Clayderman, Lawrence Welk, Victor Borge, Jim Nabors, Debby & Pat Boone, Morris Albert, The Lennon Sisters, Mediaeval Baebes, music from Renaissance Faires, polka, barbershop quartets, and other non-funky music. . There's an easy listening thread that's still open here.

MickyDolenz said:

TonyVanDam said:

Fair enough. I hope to see you in the org for the very next thread about The Carpenters.

I've made threads about Richard Clayderman, Lawrence Welk, Victor Borge, Jim Nabors, Debby & Pat Boone, Morris Albert, The Lennon Sisters, Mediaeval Baebes, music from Renaissance Faires, polka, barbershop quartets, and other non-funky music. . There's an easy listening thread that's still open here.

What about the Carpenters though?

babynoz said:

What about the Carpenters though?

I don't recall making a thread specifically about them, but I posted a video of Karen drumming in some thread. I've made a couple threads about Mac & Katie Kissoon though, which is another sibling act. Like Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep. Katie does some background work for others today.

Yeah I was 6 years old when that aired but I remember it very clearly. It was very sad.

TonyVanDam said:

I remember that night in 1988 that Whitney got booed because her music wasn't "black enough" according to some in the black audience. And I also remember within that same year, George Michael, the first white man to ever have an album go #1 on Billboards r&b/soul album charts, also won a Soul Train Music Award for best male album of the year. I also recall that Dionne Warwick (Whitney's aunt) and Glady Knight were piss off about those incidents at the time.

paisleypark4 said:

WOW how ironic black people were back then LMAO!!!!

Especially for Dionne since she's famous for records with white people like Burt Bacharach & Barry Manilow and she was more popular in the pop field than the R&B one. It's funny that blues singers generally didn't put down the white acts who did blues and made records with or toured with them. Some blacks put down the blues or abandoned it, saying it was backwards, country, low class and embarrasing. But British invasion acts would give blues perfomers shout outs which helped them to get recognition with the beatniks & hippies and blues singers got work in coffeehouses and even concert halls instead of just being stuck in the juke joints of the chitlin' circuit. But with R&B/rap it's not as easy to get accepted. Motown didn't even put Teena Marie's picture on her 1st album cover, sort of a reverse of the practice of previous decades where the labels would put white people on the album covers of records by black performers to make them more marketable to a white audience.

TonyVanDam said:

phunkdaddy said:

TonyVanDam said:

I remember that night in 1988 that Whitney got booed because her music wasn't "black enough" according to some in the black audience. And I also remember within that same year, George Michael, the first white man to ever have an album go #1 on Billboards r&b/soul album charts, also won a Soul Train Music Award for best male album of the year. I also recall that Dionne Warwick (Whitney's aunt) and Glady Knight were piss off about those incidents at the time.

I remember New Edition were on Video Soul back then and he spoke about George Michael getting the award. He didn't have any disrespect towards George but he mentioned that he thought the black audience were purchasing Keith Sweat's debut album that year. I didn't have a problem with George winning it he made a splash on the R&b charts and radio that year. It would have been a whole different story had Wham won for R&b categories in 1985. [Edited 12/2/14 17:09pm]

yeah, this was the period from 1986 to the end of the 80s where Billboard distorted record purchases by black record buyers, which led to the demise of real R&B.....it even hit New Edition where after their multi-platinum album NE HEARTBREAK Of 1988...NE disbanded and Ricky Bell, Michael Bivens, and Ronnie Devoe formed BBD and branched off into a hybrid of hip-hop/R&B........this is when R&B became formula driven by the early 90s.......

Keith Sweat's MAKE IT LAST FOREVER sold way more than what Billboard reported.......it was all by design....

Scorp said:

NE disbanded and Ricky Bell, Michael Bivens, and Ronnie Devoe formed BBD and branched off into a hybrid of hip-hop/R&B

The hybrids were there from the beginning. New Edition had raps on their songs since the Candy Girl album and other acts like Force MDs, The Sequence, and even Stacy Lattisaw were rapping & singing on songs in the early 1980s. Rapture by Blondie and Wordy Rappinghood by Tom Tom Club were pretty much the same thing. Stevie Wonder rapped on Do I Do and produced a rap song called The Crown by Gary Byrd. Herbie Hancock released the hip hop/electro based Future Shock in 1983 and had a big hit with Rockit. The Gap Band had a breakdancer called Baby Gap and had breakin in the Party Train video. Cameo released the maxi single of She's Strange which was rapped. Kurtis Blow had sung hooks on songs and had an entire song of singing on his debut. Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 had a song about Stevie Wonder that was all sung. Bohannon had a rap version of Let's Start The Dance and Must Be The Music by Secret Weapon had a rap in the middle. Jam & Lewis produced Captain Rapp's song Bad Times which had a sung chorus by Kimberly Ball and they also produced Ice T's first single in 1983.

Scorp said:

phunkdaddy said:

TonyVanDam said: I remember New Edition were on Video Soul back then and he spoke about George Michael getting the award. He didn't have any disrespect towards George but he mentioned that he thought the black audience were purchasing Keith Sweat's debut album that year. I didn't have a problem with George winning it he made a splash on the R&b charts and radio that year. It would have been a whole different story had Wham won for R&b categories in 1985. [Edited 12/2/14 17:09pm]

yeah, this was the period from 1986 to the end of the 80s where Billboard distorted record purchases by black record buyers, which led to the demise of real R&B.....it even hit New Edition where after their multi-platinum album NE HEARTBREAK Of 1988...NE disbanded and Ricky Bell, Michael Bivens, and Ronnie Devoe formed BBD and branched off into a hybrid of hip-hop/R&B........this is when R&B became formula driven by the early 90s.......

Keith Sweat's MAKE IT LAST FOREVER sold way more than what Billboard reported.......it was all by design....

Keith Sweat's debut album was definitely in a lot of black households and I'm willing to bet

a lot more than George's debut album.

MickyDolenz said:

Scorp said:

NE disbanded and Ricky Bell, Michael Bivens, and Ronnie Devoe formed BBD and branched off into a hybrid of hip-hop/R&B

The hybrids were there from the beginning. New Edition had raps on their songs since the Candy Girl album and other acts like Force MDs, The Sequence, and even Stacy Lattisaw were rapping & singing on songs in the early 1980s. Rapture by Blondie and Wordy Rappinghood by Tom Tom Club were pretty much the same thing. Stevie Wonder rapped on Do I Do and produced a rap song called The Crown by Gary Byrd. Herbie Hancock released the hip hop/electro based Future Shock in 1983 and had a big hit with Rockit. The Gap Band had a breakdancer called Baby Gap and had breakin in the Party Train video. Cameo released the maxi single of She's Strange which was rapped. Kurtis Blow had sung hooks on songs and had an entire song of singing on his debut. Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 had a song about Stevie Wonder that was all sung. Bohannon had a rap version of Let's Start The Dance and Must Be The Music by Secret Weapon had a rap in the middle. Jam & Lewis produced Captain Rapp's song Bad Times which had a sung chorus by Kimberly Ball and they also produced Ice T's first single in 1983.

there was balance.....there is a difference between performing various genres (which is great) and phasing out an entire genre of music...which is what happened to real R&B

Even before the 88/89 Soul Train Awards took place, R&B was already being phased out

and by the late 80s, Billboard was distoring actual album sales of R&B artists by black record buyers.....I remember that like it was yesterday.....R&B was the only genre of music where this misrepresentation happened to with a deliberate attempt to undermine it

and that's why R&B is practically null and void today

and even w/those songs u mentioned, real R&B served as the foundation for them all

[Edited 12/3/14 3:58am]

Scorp said:

and even w/those songs u mentioned, real R&B served as the foundation for them all

What does "real R&B" mean? Early R&B from the 1940s & 1950s was closer to blues (especially jump blues/boogie woogie) mixed with gospel. That's why it was called "rhythm & blues" which was coined to replace the previous "race" label. The 1970s and 1980's popular R&B doesn't sound much like it. Sha Na Na & The Stray Cats sound closer to early R&B than Teddy Pendergrass & Cameo. Sounds change over the years. It's like Miranda Lambert doesn't have much in common with the Coon Creek Girls or Kirk Franklin with the Fisk Jubilee Singers.

MickyDolenz said:

Scorp said:

and even w/those songs u mentioned, real R&B served as the foundation for them all

What does "real R&B" mean? Early R&B from the 1940s & 1950s was closer to blues (especially jump blues/boogie woogie) mixed with gospel. That's why it was called "rhythm & blues" which was coined to replace the previous "race" label. The 1970s and 1980's popular R&B doesn't sound much like it. Sha Na Na & The Stray Cats sound closer to early R&B than Teddy Pendergrass & Cameo. Sounds change over the years. It's like Miranda Lambert doesn't have much in common with the Coon Creek Girls or Kirk Franklin with the Fisk Jubilee Singers.

for me, and I'm not trying to make this a race issue

but "real R&B" is any authentic form of black music that can be traced by to the cultivation of the spirituals that gave birth, to gospel, ragtime, blues, jazz, soul, funk

real R&B has direct connection with culture, is a reflection of culture

it's not about genre as much as it is about a shaping of culture and a music shaped by culture

culture reflects contribution of all walks of life, regardless of age

even as music changed and "evolved" many of those luminaries from the 40s, 50s, and 60s, still maintained viable presence in music well into their 50s, 60s and beyond.......

that's no longer the case in today's musical climate....once you hit 30-35, for the most part, you're done, you're finished, you're toast

there is no relation with culture anymore when it comes the music created by today's contemporaries....it's really not their fault

real R&B was the lifeline for just about every major musical genre that we have witness take shape over the past 30 years.....Hip-Hop has incorporated it, Pop has incorporated it immensely, even contemporary gospel artists (ala Kirk Franklin) have done so

most of the music that has been sampled over time was created by artists who represented R&B authenticity

Pop has practically eliminated authenticity

Scorp said:

Pop has practically eliminated authenticity

Before rock & roll in the mid-1950s, there wasn't really any music (or much of anything) specifically marketed to teens. It was the boomer generation that teens generally had more purchasing power in relation to the ones in previous generations. Afterwards, the Top 40 started to focus more and more on the youth market, so the older crooners went out of style. That's partly the reason the easy listening & later adult contemporary radio formats were created for the generation before the boomers and others who did not like rock. This was also why the Album Oriented Rock stations on FM came about for listeners who weren't interested in the bubblegum & teen idol music played on the Top 40. They played harder rock and psychedelic music and in the beginning didn't have a set playlist like Top 40. Before AOR, most music stations were on AM as a lot of radios only had AM, especially in cars. Stereo also phased out the popularity of AM as it could only broadcast mono and it started to become a place for talk radio.

MickyDolenz said:

Scorp said:

Pop has practically eliminated authenticity

Before rock & roll in the mid-1950s, there wasn't really any music (or much of anything) specifically marketed to teens. It was the boomer generation that teens generally had more purchasing power in relation to the ones in previous generations. Afterwards, the Top 40 started to focus more and more on the youth market, so the older crooners went out of style. That's partly the reason the easy listening & later adult contemporary radio formats were created for the generation before the boomers and others who did not like rock. This was also why the Album Oriented Rock stations on FM came about for listeners who weren't interested in the bubblegum & teen idol music played on the Top 40. They played harder rock and psychedelic music and in the beginning didn't have a set playlist like Top 40. Before AOR, most music stations were on AM as a lot of radios only had AM, especially in cars. Stereo also phased out the popularity of AM as it could only broadcast mono and it started to become a place for talk radio.

all of what you said were good points

your true musical legends/luminaries were able to withstand all of the fragmenting

Tina Turner was 44 years old when her album PRIVATE DANCER was released in 1984, and not only was this her most successful album artistically and commercially, she proved that you can be a leading artist in the recording industry if you have the proper support and if the industry looks beyond one's age

James Brown was in his 50s when he released his last major hit LIVING IN AMERICA in 1985

Natalie Cole was 42 years old when she released UNFORGETTABLE, an album so poignant and endearing, she won 5 grammys as a result

CHER, was in her 40s when she released one of her last major hits, BELIEVE in 1997-1998

MARVIN GAYE, arguably the greatest r&b artists of them all, was 42 when he released MIDNIGHT LOVE (Sexual Healing) in 1982, and was about to reach another plateau of creativity before his life was cut short 2 years later

even as Rock N Roll took over the musical landscape during the 50s, FRANK SINATRA was still a respected presence decades later, and the youth coming up before the Pop Ascension crushed the industry knew who he was and his contribution to the music field......

even with the JACKSON FIVE, when they first came out, there was a great representation of music buyers representing youth and adults......it was my parents who bought those records for me, including J-5's Christmas album

My uncle bought me OFF THE WALL, an adult gave me the THRILLER album

the artists who I came to enjoy an appreciate, the majority of them I was introduced to by adults in my life

there was great balance, where you had youthful acts and adult acts presenting vibrant music on the scene, black artists, white artists, male artists, female artists, international artists

we had the full range..........

not any more......that has been totally phased out

^^Those are just a few exceptions, most veteran acts didn't get any Top 40 radio play and those were boomer era acts, not really the ones before. Boomers tend to be more loyal to their acts. They're behind the different music Hall Of Fames (Rock & Roll, blues, SoulMusic, country, songwriters, etc). Between the time Tina left Ike and Private Dancer, she didn't get much airplay in the US. Marvin had 2 flop albums (Here My Dear, In Our Lifetime) before Sexual Healing hit. James released several albums before Living In America that didn't do much. The song being in a Rocky movie probably helped it. Rocky was a big thing at the time. James had a couple more R&B hits after that with Full Force, but he didn't get the big album sales like other veterans like Tina Turner, George Harrison, Genesis, & Paul Simon. Most of James' albums were never really big sellers though, that's why they remained out of print for many years. Working with younger, popular acts helped B.B. King & Roy Orbison reach a new audience. Frank Sinatra pretty much popularized the duets album trend, also working with hot at the time performers, which became popular in the early 1990s.

MickyDolenz said:

Scorp said:

and even w/those songs u mentioned, real R&B served as the foundation for them all

What does "real R&B" mean? Early R&B from the 1940s & 1950s was closer to blues (especially jump blues/boogie woogie) mixed with gospel. That's why it was called "rhythm & blues" which was coined to replace the previous "race" label. The 1970s and 1980's popular R&B doesn't sound much like it. Sha Na Na & The Stray Cats sound closer to early R&B than Teddy Pendergrass & Cameo. Sounds change over the years. It's like Miranda Lambert doesn't have much in common with the Coon Creek Girls or Kirk Franklin with the Fisk Jubilee Singers.

R&B is suppose to be "rhythm & blues". But for the later half of the 1990's and nearly all of the 2000's, we ended up with "rhythmless bullshit".

Don't believe any of this? Look at the damage Sean Combs did when he invented "hip-hop soul". He took hip-hop beats at a tempo of 95 BPM and have a singer (Mary J Blige, Faith Evans, Total, etc.) perform on it instead of a rapper. At a tragic result, r&b/soul was replace by hip-hop/r&b.

And BTW, Sean copy the 95 BPM idea from Dr. Dre & Warren G. Remember, G-Funk is basically George Clinton's P-Funk being played at 95 BPM. But that discussion is worthy of its own thread.

[Edited 12/4/14 22:07pm]

MickyDolenz said:

^^Those are just a few exceptions, most veteran acts didn't get any Top 40 radio play and those were boomer era acts, not really the ones before. Boomers tend to be more loyal to their acts. They're behind the different music Hall Of Fames (Rock & Roll, blues, SoulMusic, country, songwriters, etc). Between the time Tina left Ike and Private Dancer, she didn't get much airplay in the US. Marvin had 2 flop albums (Here My Dear, In Our Lifetime) before Sexual Healing hit. James released several albums before Living In America that didn't do much. The song being in a Rocky movie probably helped it. Rocky was a big thing at the time. James had a couple more R&B hits after that with Full Force, but he didn't get the big album sales like other veterans like Tina Turner, George Harrison, Genesis, & Paul Simon. Most of James' albums were never really big sellers though, that's why they remained out of print for many years. Working with younger, popular acts helped B.B. King & Roy Orbison reach a new audience. Frank Sinatra pretty much popularized the duets album trend, also working with hot at the time performers, which became popular in the early 1990s.

There are plenty of artists who have come down the pike who have made memorable, long lasting music well into their late 30s/early 40s, up unto their 50s

Ronald Isley has been making music from the 50s to the present day, a career that has spanned 6 decades, and not only was he making songs in each decade, but he was making songs that hit the top of the charts all the way up until the beginning of the 2000s....

Luther Vandross was making music well into his 40s

Stevie Wonder was already a music legend before the 60s ended, and cranked out his best music during the 70s to the end of the 80s

Phil Collins would be making great music today if he hadn't become a victom of ageism

Hall and Oates were close to 30 years of age when they cranked out SARA SMILE and made great music up until the late 80s before they became victims of ageism too

most of your music bands back then, Earth Wind and Fire, LTD, the Commodores and the like were just hitting their stride when they hit their 30s......Lionel Richie was 35 when he released CAN'T SLOW DOWN in 1983 and sold over 20 million worldwide

Bruce Springsteen was in his mid 30s when he released BORN IN THE USA in 1984, his most successful album he's ever done, selling over 25 million plus

Pat Benatar was 30 when she was releasing her best music during the early 80s and was a stone cold great artist

Smokey Robinson was almost 40 when he released one his greatest records ever CRUISIN before the 80s hit......already 35 when he released QUIET STORM, which became a radio format in throughout the 80s

Gladys Knight and the Pips was still cranking out hits in the 80s when Gladys was in her late 30s, she was almost 40 when her record SAVE THE OVERTIME FOR ME, one of the best ever R&B songs ever made

Barry White who's career was snubbed by the pop music mechanism, experiencing a resurgence in the late 80s/early 90s, he was in his mid 40s when he performed on the classic SECRET GARDEN with Al. B. Sure, James Ingram, and El Debarge.....

The OJAY'S had a #1 r&b hits in 1989...HAVE YOU HAD YOUR LOVE TODAY...and they were in their mid 40s......

heck, when HIP-HOP first started, most of your artists starting out where already grown adults

ICE-T was a grown man, almost 30 when he released his first record

Kenny Rogers was in his 40s when he released the best record he's ever done with LADY in 80/81, that was a #1 country hit and R&B hit...

Teddy Pendergrass was in his late 30s when he released JOY and 2AM in 1988, both reached the top of the R&B charts, and this was years after he suffered that car accident

The Temptations had a top R&B some 30 plus years after MY GIRL with STAY in the late 90s...they were well in their 50s when that song was released.....

if you have true talent, if you symbolize authenticity, your career can stand the test of time if you have the proper support

the music industry no longer wanted that to be the main focus when the late 80s hit and an entire plethora of artists like the ones mentioned above, for the most part, they were totally phased out and replaced with an ensemble the industry believed could generate more record sales in the video age

but as of 2014, record sales are running on fumes, as soon as u hit 30, more than likely your'e toast, and the video age is all but done.........

[Edited 12/4/14 12:41pm]