Real hip-hop here. Hope these guys come out of retirement one day!

I'll always have affection for these guys. And to think back in the day hip hop fans hated on them!

Militant said:

duccichucka said:

Do you know that one could easily scan Tupac's discography and list songs that glorified violence,

demeaned women, and rhapsodized about "thug life"? Tupac on his "worst day" may have been

deeper than A$AP Rocky, but that don't make his songs that glorified and rhapsodized violence

and the attraction to "thug life" any better.

You and 17dayze are missing the point: Tupac, like Biggie, and other rap artists, are both

materialistic and insightful as rap is mostly a bragging art form.

I'm intimately familiar with his catalog. I've worked with the Shakur family and I made a documentary for the BBC for the 10th anniversary of his passing back in 2006. The dichotomy between Tupac's "Thug Life" side (ie, the 'Pac that wrote "Hit Em Up") , and his socially aware, caring, activist, artistic side (ie, the 'Pac that wrote "The Rose That Grew From Concrete" poems and the songs I listed) is exactly what makes him so enigmatic, so appealing, and so, at times, puzzling. It's the classic struggle between two sides, like his fellow Gemini Prince.


So yes, while I can agree that at times, Tupac adhered to the "rules" of the art form, I'd also argue that he completely transcended it, which is why he is easily the most beloved hip-hop artist of all time.

How did Tupac transcend a particular context, bragging, in rap? I don't think his transcendence

is due to his ability to rhyme about sex, drugs, materialism, with socially conscious pieces. As

you just said, it reveals the duality of many recording artists who can be truthful to things that

are profane and things that are sacred. Therefore, there's nothing enigmatic about this quality

of Tupac.

He transcended the genre because of his life. The character he played in the media was larger

than life. Look there for the source of his transcendence.

missfee said:

duccichucka said:

So, materialistic rap is okay if you're witty? You said for every materialistic lyric Tupac

uttered, there was a "smart" one. But couldn't the same be said for Lil Wayne, or Petey

Pablo, or Kendrick Lamar? Rap inherently is materialistic because its contains so much

braggadocio. Rock n roll is about fucking chicks. Rap is about bragging. Am I being a

reductionist here? Yep. But if the shoe fits. . .

And you're still trying to blame Puffy for materialistic rap: Puffy was just highlighting what

was already popular in the 'hood: ghetto fabulousness. He just put it on MTV and BET. If

you want to blame somebody for the explosion of materialistic rap, look at the materialistic

and ironically poor Black Americans who lusted after living that lifestyle. Puffy gave those

east coast ninjas exactly what they wanted. And Suge gave those west coast homies what

they wanted too.

Anyways, yeah: rap is an art form that subsists on bragging about X, Y, and Z. Once you

realize this, or, come to terms with it, you won't get upset when Biggie and Tupac both

rap about Versace, just as I understand the context of Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher."

This statement could make one believe that you don't know much about music. Various rap music contains a broad range of topics, not just partying, talking the hard life, or screwing women....just as all rock n roll is NOT about chicks. When you think about artists like Public Enemy, KRS-One, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common, Gang Starr, Pete Rock, etc. their music wasn't about how they wanted to be the "Nino Brown" of the world or what kind of car they bought last month. There's plenty of rap music around that is really deep and give real and positives messages.

Missfee, respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. The very term "rock n roll" is a

euphemism for fucking. And you are just arguing to be arguing: I never said that hip hop was

only about bragging or rapping about thug life. I said bragging was an integral part of the be-

ginning of hip hop and that Tupac rhymed about both materialism and social constructs.

Stop being disagreeable just for the sake of it.

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

Do you know that one could easily scan Tupac's discography and list songs that glorified violence,

demeaned women, and rhapsodized about "thug life"? Tupac on his "worst day" may have been

deeper than A$AP Rocky, but that don't make his songs that glorified and rhapsodized violence

and the attraction to "thug life" any better.

You and 17dayze are missing the point: Tupac, like Biggie, and other rap artists, are both

materialistic and insightful as rap is mostly a bragging art form.

It seems that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, so to speak. Just because someone says that Tupac had several insightful songs, etc. is NOT implying that ALL songs that he did were like that. Geez. Are you just arguing for the sake of having an argument? Given that Dr Dre & Suge Knight were his boss at different points, it's amazing that Tupac got ANY positive music out there. Chew on that...

Dayze, I'm hardly talking out of both sides of my mouth. Nothing in my posts imply that I

viewed anybody as suggesting that Tupac's catalogue was either A or B. I said his oeuvre

was both A and B! Look at how I end my post above:

"Tupac, like Biggie, and other rap artists, are both materialistic and insightful. . . "

The reason why I'm saying this is because my original reply in this thread was arguing that

the two luminaries of hip hop, Tupac and Biggie, were just as materialistic as contemporary

hip hop artists; and that Puffy and Suge Knight were just giving the audience what they

wanted - they did not invent materialism.

You're another one who wants to argue with me just to get it in!

duccichucka said:

SeventeenDayze said:

It seems that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, so to speak. Just because someone says that Tupac had several insightful songs, etc. is NOT implying that ALL songs that he did were like that. Geez. Are you just arguing for the sake of having an argument? Given that Dr Dre & Suge Knight were his boss at different points, it's amazing that Tupac got ANY positive music out there. Chew on that...

Dayze, I'm hardly talking out of both sides of my mouth. Nothing in my posts imply that I

viewed anybody as suggesting that Tupac's catalogue was either A or B. I said his oeuvre

was both A and B! Look at how I end my post above:

"Tupac, like Biggie, and other rap artists, are both materialistic and insightful. . . "

The reason why I'm saying this is because my original reply in this thread was arguing that

the two luminaries of hip hop, Tupac and Biggie, were just as materialistic as contemporary

hip hop artists; and that Puffy and Suge Knight were just giving the audience what they

wanted - they did not invent materialism.

You're another one who wants to argue with me just to get it in!

Sounds like Misfee, Militant and myself owe you an apology! We didn't realize you had the final word on hip-hop because that's how it sounds judging by what you wrote.

How in the world can someone be materialistic and insightful? Did you ever think that perhaps Tupac rapped about those things because he knew what it was like growing up with what he needed (NOT what he wanted)? I think that would leave a serious impression on the mind of a youngster that dreams of having enough food to eat. So, imagine what happens when you give that same kid millions of dollars and fame? At his core, he's still that "poor kid" so that's where a lot of the "thug life, thug passion, etc" comes from.

I don't think anyone was making an argument about materialism in the first place until you inserted that into the convo.

Busta can still kill it.

lrn36 said:

Busta can still kill it.

I was reading the comment board on the Toyota commercial and someone wrote "RIP HIP HOP 1984-2014

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

Dayze, I'm hardly talking out of both sides of my mouth. Nothing in my posts imply that I

viewed anybody as suggesting that Tupac's catalogue was either A or B. I said his oeuvre

was both A and B! Look at how I end my post above:

"Tupac, like Biggie, and other rap artists, are both materialistic and insightful. . . "

The reason why I'm saying this is because my original reply in this thread was arguing that

the two luminaries of hip hop, Tupac and Biggie, were just as materialistic as contemporary

hip hop artists; and that Puffy and Suge Knight were just giving the audience what they

wanted - they did not invent materialism.

You're another one who wants to argue with me just to get it in!

Sounds like Misfee, Militant and myself owe you an apology! We didn't realize you had the final word on hip-hop because that's how it sounds judging by what you wrote.

How in the world can someone be materialistic and insightful? Did you ever think that perhaps Tupac rapped about those things because he knew what it was like growing up with what he needed (NOT what he wanted)? I think that would leave a serious impression on the mind of a youngster that dreams of having enough food to eat. So, imagine what happens when you give that same kid millions of dollars and fame? At his core, he's still that "poor kid" so that's where a lot of the "thug life, thug passion, etc" comes from.

I don't think anyone was making an argument about materialism in the first place until you inserted that into the convo.

You don't owe me an apology. You just don't like my posting style because I think before I

post and try to form an opinion based upon facts and/or some type of insight.

What do you mean how can someone be both materialistic and insightful? What an uninsightful

question! How can humans be both good and bad? Well, we manage to figure it out. And

Tupac Shakur managed to figure out how to be profane (Toss It Up) and sacred (Dear Momma),

just like he managed to rap about his material wealth and his social/economic/political concerns

all on the same album. You do realize that something can be both hot and cold at the same time,

right? It's called "warm." In other words, materialism and insight are not mutually exclusive.

You're offering an apology (defense) for Tupac's materialism. But there's no need for this.

There's nothing wrong with materialism unless it's not counter-balanced by insight, which is

what Tupac had. This tells us that Tupac was just like we are: both good/bad, insightful/stupid,

sacred/profane. It humanizes him.

I began this argument again, because I responded to the post that Tupac Shakur and Biggie

Smalls were just as materialistic as modern day rappers who are materialistic; the implication

I was responding to was that Tupac and Biggie somehow transcended the presence of materialism

in hip hop, but this idea is clearly flawed. Follow the conversation closely, Dayze!

duccichucka said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Sounds like Misfee, Militant and myself owe you an apology! We didn't realize you had the final word on hip-hop because that's how it sounds judging by what you wrote.

How in the world can someone be materialistic and insightful? Did you ever think that perhaps Tupac rapped about those things because he knew what it was like growing up with what he needed (NOT what he wanted)? I think that would leave a serious impression on the mind of a youngster that dreams of having enough food to eat. So, imagine what happens when you give that same kid millions of dollars and fame? At his core, he's still that "poor kid" so that's where a lot of the "thug life, thug passion, etc" comes from.

I don't think anyone was making an argument about materialism in the first place until you inserted that into the convo.

You don't owe me an apology. You just don't like my posting style because I think before I

post and try to form an opinion based upon facts and/or some type of insight.

What do you mean how can someone be both materialistic and insightful? What an uninsightful

question! How can humans be both good and bad? Well, we manage to figure it out. And

Tupac Shakur managed to figure out how to be profane (Toss It Up) and sacred (Dear Momma),

just like he managed to rap about his material wealth and his social/economic/political concerns

all on the same album. You do realize that something can be both hot and cold at the same time,

right? It's called "warm." In other words, materialism and insight are not mutually exclusive.

You're offering an apology (defense) for Tupac's materialism. But there's no need for this.

There's nothing wrong with materialism unless it's not counter-balanced by insight, which is

what Tupac had. This tells us that Tupac was just like we are: both good/bad, insightful/stupid,

sacred/profane. It humanizes him.

I began this argument again, because I responded to the post that Tupac Shakur and Biggie

Smalls were just as materialistic as modern day rappers who are materialistic; the implication

I was responding to was that Tupac and Biggie somehow transcended the presence of materialism

in hip hop, but this idea is clearly flawed. Follow the conversation closely, Dayze!

I've been following closely and it seems that you talk in circles. You only gave Tupac props when more than a few people brought it to your attention that he had a lot of great songs that weren't all about thug life and whatnot. It seems like you're just arguing for the sake of being difficult.

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

You don't owe me an apology. You just don't like my posting style because I think before I

post and try to form an opinion based upon facts and/or some type of insight.

What do you mean how can someone be both materialistic and insightful? What an uninsightful

question! How can humans be both good and bad? Well, we manage to figure it out. And

Tupac Shakur managed to figure out how to be profane (Toss It Up) and sacred (Dear Momma),

just like he managed to rap about his material wealth and his social/economic/political concerns

all on the same album. You do realize that something can be both hot and cold at the same time,

right? It's called "warm." In other words, materialism and insight are not mutually exclusive.

You're offering an apology (defense) for Tupac's materialism. But there's no need for this.

There's nothing wrong with materialism unless it's not counter-balanced by insight, which is

what Tupac had. This tells us that Tupac was just like we are: both good/bad, insightful/stupid,

sacred/profane. It humanizes him.

I began this argument again, because I responded to the post that Tupac Shakur and Biggie

Smalls were just as materialistic as modern day rappers who are materialistic; the implication

I was responding to was that Tupac and Biggie somehow transcended the presence of materialism

in hip hop, but this idea is clearly flawed. Follow the conversation closely, Dayze!

I've been following closely and it seems that you talk in circles. You only gave Tupac props when more than a few people brought it to your attention that he had a lot of great songs that weren't all about thug life and whatnot. It seems like you're just arguing for the sake of being difficult.

Dayze, you're full of crap. I never denigrated Tupac, ever! I merely suggested that KoolEaze

and BlaqueKnight must remember that Tupac Shakur could be just as consumed with material-

ism as modern day rappers are; that he was not outside the criticism that rappers are

materialistic. The only reason why I could make such a claim is because I'm familiar with his

catalog; no one needed to name drop songs where Tupac was extolling virtues that society

champions in an effort to prove that he wasn't materialistic sometimes - no duh, bro. The only

thing I've been arguing in this thread is that ASAP Rocky et al are just as dualistic as Tupac/

Biggie were: equally insightful and poignant while glorifying that which society does not champion.

You cannot point to any of my posts and prove that I'm talking in circles, homie. And I was not

the first to mention "materialism." Again, if you have been following this thread closely, you will

see that it was KoolEaze who leveled that complaint against rap earlier in this thread initially.

You're wrong; instead of being butt-hurt, just accept that Me and KoolEaze have seemed to

come to some sort of agreement that Tupac was just as insightful as he was materialistic. And

this speaks loudly to most rappers today who rap about whips, jewelry, hoes, money and

then on the next song, rap about the difficulties with living in the 'hood or being caught up in the

trap game.

Get it together, friend.

duccichucka said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I've been following closely and it seems that you talk in circles. You only gave Tupac props when more than a few people brought it to your attention that he had a lot of great songs that weren't all about thug life and whatnot. It seems like you're just arguing for the sake of being difficult.

Dayze, you're full of crap. I never denigrated Tupac, ever! I merely suggested that KoolEaze

and BlaqueKnight must remember that Tupac Shakur could be just as consumed with material-

ism as modern day rappers are; that he was not outside the criticism that rappers are

materialistic. The only reason why I could make such a claim is because I'm familiar with his

catalog; no one needed to name drop songs where Tupac was extolling virtues that society

champions in an effort to prove that he wasn't materialistic sometimes - no duh, bro. The only

thing I've been arguing in this thread is that ASAP Rocky et al are just as dualistic as Tupac/

Biggie were: equally insightful and poignant while glorifying that which society does not champion.

You cannot point to any of my posts and prove that I'm talking in circles, homie. And I was not

the first to mention "materialism." Again, if you have been following this thread closely, you will

see that it was KoolEaze who leveled that complaint against rap earlier in this thread initially.

You're wrong; instead of being butt-hurt, just accept that Me and KoolEaze have seemed to

come to some sort of agreement that Tupac was just as insightful as he was materialistic. And

this speaks loudly to most rappers today who rap about whips, jewelry, hoes, money and

then on the next song, rap about the difficulties with living in the 'hood or being caught up in the

trap game.

Get it together, friend.

Homie?

No, duh?

Are you 12?

See if ASAP Rocky will ever put out a song like this: (Disclaimer: slurs are used in this video)

[Edited 8/6/14 21:05pm]

Came across this recently:

KoolEaze said:

Many people miss Tupac and Biggie and often bring them up when they compare "real" , old school Hip Hop vs. modern, mainstream Hip Hop but, while I still like most of Tupac´s work and acknowledge Biggie´s skills as a rapper, I must say that the downfall of Hip Hop started with Puffy and the obscene materialism that he and his crew glorified so unapologetically.

Don´t get me wrong, this does not take away from Biggie´s skills and of course they released a lot of good music but still....I think P.Diddy and Suge Knight are easily among the main culprits when it comes to the demise of Hip Hop as a culture and lifestyle..they totally perverted everything that the movement used to stand for and it turned into one big messy celebration of materialism, violence, misogyny, ignorance and partying.

So, what some consider the last breath of real Hip Hop was actually, in my opinion, the beginning of the end.

And yet everybody complaining about the decay of Hip Hop still likes Diddy and his cohorts, including people who I´d consider real Hip Hop (KRS 1, Chuck D., etc.).

Also don´t forget the extremely annoying Black Eyed Peas, the once omnipresent and equally annoying Wyclef Jean and of course Lil Wayne and Lil Jon and all them fucking Lils that are out there.

And Jay-Z Dude is very smart and has some nice, energetic songs and interesting rhymes but boy is he a selfish, arrogant, thieving, same ol same ol rapper who still raps about shit he did in ´88 for the umpteenth time.

Rant over.

Some excellent points here.

midnightmover said:

KoolEaze said:

Many people miss Tupac and Biggie and often bring them up when they compare "real" , old school Hip Hop vs. modern, mainstream Hip Hop but, while I still like most of Tupac´s work and acknowledge Biggie´s skills as a rapper, I must say that the downfall of Hip Hop started with Puffy and the obscene materialism that he and his crew glorified so unapologetically.

Don´t get me wrong, this does not take away from Biggie´s skills and of course they released a lot of good music but still....I think P.Diddy and Suge Knight are easily among the main culprits when it comes to the demise of Hip Hop as a culture and lifestyle..they totally perverted everything that the movement used to stand for and it turned into one big messy celebration of materialism, violence, misogyny, ignorance and partying.

So, what some consider the last breath of real Hip Hop was actually, in my opinion, the beginning of the end.

And yet everybody complaining about the decay of Hip Hop still likes Diddy and his cohorts, including people who I´d consider real Hip Hop (KRS 1, Chuck D., etc.).

Also don´t forget the extremely annoying Black Eyed Peas, the once omnipresent and equally annoying Wyclef Jean and of course Lil Wayne and Lil Jon and all them fucking Lils that are out there.

And Jay-Z Dude is very smart and has some nice, energetic songs and interesting rhymes but boy is he a selfish, arrogant, thieving, same ol same ol rapper who still raps about shit he did in ´88 for the umpteenth time.

Rant over.

Some excellent points here.

Thank you!

TonyVanDam said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Young Lil Wayne is not as bad as this version. He actually had more substance and rapprd about real life. Remember the song Everything? It wasn't 50 Cent. Get Rich or Die Trying was actually a great album. Lil Jon is responsible for the likes of Ying Yang Twins Crime Mob Lil Scrappy D4L ect. Jons sytle of chanting minimal lyrics and beats are still running strong today. His style is responsible for the likes of Soulja Boy Chief Keef Young Thug Future Rich Homie Quan ect. not Master P Cash Money or 50 Cent.

No. But I do remember The Block Is Hot & Drop It Like's It Hot, both songs from Lil'Wayne's solo debut:

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1a/Thablockishot.jpg/220px-Thablockishot.jpg[/img]

It was around that time that Wayne had some potential to have 2pac's then-vacanted torch. It too bad that he fell clean off course lyrically.

And please don't let 50 or G-Unit off the hook so easily. Excuse me, but in retrospect, 50Cent was as good as the beats that Dr. Dre provided for him. As soon as 50 was getting beats from everyone else, it exposes himself as overrated. And G-Unit (especially that wackass Tony Yayo) were overhyped and nonprogressive.

But I strongly agree with you about the legecy of Lil'Jon and Atlanta Crunk subgenre.

I'm not the biggest 50 fan, but he's not as bad as you're making him seem. At least not his first 2 albums and that first G-Unit Beg FOr Mercy album

Get Rich or Die Trying is a grat Hip-Hop album. It would have been hot with Cool & Dre in stead of Dr. Dre on it. Those were just good songs.

Alright, this song seems to suggest that they are getting a paycheck, does that mean they are promoting living life via legit means?

SeventeenDayze said:

Came across this recently:

This is part of the reason why music sucks now. BEcause of indirect endorsements like this... and from the president of all people.

MotownSubdivision said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Came across this recently:

Oh, there's one that's worse. I'll Orgnote it to you, no way I'm gonna post it here

SeventeenDayze said:

MotownSubdivision said:

Oh, there's one that's worse. I'll Orgnote it to you, no way I'm gonna post it here

Now that I actually watched the video I can say that it's not what I thought it actually was and in retrospect was pretty ridiculous to think such a thing. I thought Obama was actually rapping the song until I played the video to find out it's actually a "Jimmy Fallon styled politician raps by putting clips of the speeches together to the beat of the song they are rapping" type deal. Thank God!

It did make me laugh though. I'd be lying it I said it didn't " /> It's something so simple yet is kinda creative which means it will be done to death in the next few years by everybody. Also, while not what I was expecting, things like this have a hand in only keeping a song in the limelight or making it even more popular, regardless if I like the parody or the song the song the song that's being parodied.

I'll tune in to my Orgnotes though, that thing has been going off on me for a few weeks now!

TonyVanDam said:

KoolEaze said:

Many people miss Tupac and Biggie and often bring them up when they compare "real" , old school Hip Hop vs. modern, mainstream Hip Hop but, while I still like most of Tupac´s work and acknowledge Biggie´s skills as a rapper, I must say that the downfall of Hip Hop started with Puffy and the obscene materialism that he and his crew glorified so unapologetically.

Don´t get me wrong, this does not take away from Biggie´s skills and of course they released a lot of good music but still....I think P.Diddy and Suge Knight are easily among the main culprits when it comes to the demise of Hip Hop as a culture and lifestyle..they totally perverted everything that the movement used to stand for and it turned into one big messy celebration of materialism, violence, misogyny, ignorance and partying.

So, what some consider the last breath of real Hip Hop was actually, in my opinion, the beginning of the end.

And yet everybody complaining about the decay of Hip Hop still likes Diddy and his cohorts, including people who I´d consider real Hip Hop (KRS 1, Chuck D., etc.).

Also don´t forget the extremely annoying Black Eyed Peas, the once omnipresent and equally annoying Wyclef Jean and of course Lil Wayne and Lil Jon and all them fucking Lils that are out there.

And Jay-Z Dude is very smart and has some nice, energetic songs and interesting rhymes but boy is he a selfish, arrogant, thieving, same ol same ol rapper who still raps about shit he did in ´88 for the umpteenth time.

Rant over.

To be more specific, Sean Combs (with Mary J. Blige as his muse) inventing hip-hop soul was equally as much to blame. Sean took Dr.Dre's idea of making beats at the slow tempo of 95 BPM. But unlike Dre, Sean Combs having his artists to not only rap but also sing on those beats. As a tragic result, it lead to damn nearly all of black music stuck on 95 BPM for almost 2 decades!

I can forgive Dr. Dre & Warren G simply because G-funk was basically George Clinton's P-funk as a slow tempo. But I will never forgive Sean Combs because his musically formula was just tacky.

G-funk was FAR more strongly rooted in the musical feel of Dayton, Ohio (Zapp, Ohio Players, Slave, Faze-O, Shirley Murdock) than it ever was in P-Funk. Digital Underground now THAT was rooted in P-Funk. And your BPM "insight" completely disacknowledges the entire existence of black house music and its offspring/variants from 1992 onward - something the ENTIRE city of Chicago was completely and utterly consumed with/by as well as a huge chunk of NYC during this time period.