I really think that if not for the "Jackson" name and the connections it brought and the talent of super producers Jam & Lewis, there would have never been a Janet. What record company would have signed Janet if Michael wasn't her brother? Who else could have given her a hit but Flyte Tyme? How many memorable dance performances were there before she was partnered with Paula Abdul? Janet was pampered in a way that most of her peers weren't. She didn't have to carry around demo tapes and play dingy clubs. She always had a seat at the AMA's and could at the very least get Dick Clark to book her even during those crappy "Young Love/Don't Stand Another Chance" days.

To her credit I'll be fair to say that she had enough energy to take her connections and run with them, but look at what ultimately happened. She stopped working with JJ&TL and her hits immediately dried up, the Jackson name stopped being a commercial lightening rod and is now more of a "heritage" brand, so that's not helping her. Without a PERFECT team in place, Janet crumbles.

The way she crashed and burned and never recovered says something about the depth of her actual talent and success. Whitney was a crackhead and media pariah, but EVERYBODY was willing to embrace the idea of a comeback with I LOOK TO YOU and she scored a platinum album...Mariah is a headcase and has had several episodes where she utterely humiliated herself in public and become fodder for laughter, but she still bounced back with MIMI and several more huge hits...Madonna's done MANY things that would have killed anyone else's career, but she always manages to outfox her detractors and bounce back...Michael was WACKO JACKO with 2 child molestation scandals under his belt, but that THIS IS IT tour was something everybody immediately was on board for and had he not died and actually pulled it off I get the feeling the world would have embraced another album from him.

Janet just for whatever reason doesn't have any survival skills, which to me says that her whole career was a facade that was based on how well other people assisted her.

It's always amazing to me how quickly Janet's considerable career accomplishments are diminished by what is at its heart a very sexist argument: that she never would have been anything without the men in her life (her brother, or Jam & Lewis, or Rene). I think that's truly unfortunate.

Somehow people forget that it was Janet who fired Joe as her manager and set out on her own path at that time, and that when she made her first two albums, they were the albums that Joe was forcing her to make. Janet's music career became successful when she took the reins and started calling the shots.

With respect to Janet's "survival skills", they're the same skills that have landed her a 35+-year career in showbusiness, with significant success in multiple media. That is not easy, and it didn't happen because of her name, or because of a man - it happened because she's a shrewd businesswoman. Janet built that success, and she owns that herself. If it was as easy as nepotism, everyone would be doing it.

And yes, Janet's commercial decline coincided with weaker ties to Jam & Lewis as a production team. It also coincided with:

i) An incident - the SuperBowl - that really underscored some ugly racism (and sexism) in America, and which, unfortunately, irreversibly damaged public opinion of her. Like Madonna, Janet was a woman who did something controversial - but she was also a black woman, and that carried with it very unique repercussions. There is no comparable circumstance that I can think of - before or since - and it says nothing about her talent that she was not able to recover or bounce back.

ii) Aging (Janet was 37 at the time). Most pop stars, especially female ones, see a natural commercial decline as they age.

[Edited 7/27/14 17:48pm]

VoicesCarry said:

It's always amazing to me how quickly Janet's considerable career accomplishments are diminished by what is at its heart a very sexist argument: that she never would have been anything without the men in her life (her brother, or Jam & Lewis, or Rene). I think that's truly unfortunate.

Somehow people forget that it was Janet who fired Joe as her manager and set out on her own path at that time, and that when she made her first two albums, they were the albums that Joe was forcing her to make. Janet's music career became successful when she took the reins and started calling the shots.

With respect to Janet's "survival skills", they're the same skills that have landed her a 35+-year career in showbusiness, with significant success in multiple media. That is not easy, and it didn't happen because of her name, or because of a man - it happened because she's a shrewd businesswoman. Janet built that success, and she owns that herself. If it was as easy as nepotism, everyone would be doing it.

And yes, Janet's commercial decline coincided with weaker ties to Jam & Lewis as a production team. It also coincided with:

i) An incident - the SuperBowl - that really underscored some ugly racism (and sexism) in America, and which, unfortunately, irreversibly damaged public opinion of her. Like Madonna, Janet was a woman who did something controversial - but she was also a black woman, and that carried with it very unique repercussions, along with doing it in a very public forum.

ii) Aging (Janet was 37 at the time). Most pop stars, especially female ones, see a natural commercial decline as they age.

[Edited 7/27/14 17:43pm]

I agree with this ^

.

1. Producing other artists, Jam & Lewis had nowhere near the success they had with Janet. Anyone who says she isn't talented isn't thinking clearly.

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2. Anyone who can't hear how good Control, Rhythm Nation, Janet., (and, fine) The Velvet Rope are probably isn't much fun to begin with.

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3. She wouldn't have been signed if not for her last name, but who cares? She was stunning.

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4. I still don't think she's given the respect she deserves.

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5. The Superbowl felt ugly, and handled bad. I wish she had owned it a bit more. The act itself took away her power: he exposed her, she flinched, and they apologized.

.

I guess I wonder what the repercussions of being a controversial black woman are, that you mention above? I'm not challenging you, i just want to know what you think.

neko said:

Growing up there were all these big stars. Huge superstars like MJ and Madonna and then the next level down u had ppl like Janet Jackson, Phil Collins, Jeffrey Osborne, Tina Turner and Prince etc etc and I just kinda accepted they all deserved to be where they were and have ppl saying they were good. Now time has passed and gone by it feels like Janet managed to go up a few more steps on the ladder of how ppl look at her as a legend than she deserved to based on her talent. Maybe down to being Michael's sister?

I mean when I go through her albums now I think she doesn't deserve a whole folder on her own. There are just a couple of quite good tracks on Rhythm Nation and that's it so she goes in my Various Singers folder with people like Bobby Brown. Don't Be Cruel is a better album than any of Janet's albums for one example, and he wasn't exactly Mozart or whatever, though Bobby probably danced better because classical music doesn't have videos. I mean when Bobby was younger because now he has to quit the tour because he's old and can't breathe. Anyway I just degreased but my point I'm trying to make is really Janet Jackson wasn't really ever that good if you are honest. What was so great? She lost a lot of weight that one time but so did Oprah.

.......

[Edited 7/26/14 12:28pm]

neko said:

Growing up there were all these big stars. Huge superstars like MJ and Madonna and then the next level down u had ppl like Janet Jackson, Phil Collins, Jeffrey Osborne, Tina Turner and Prince etc etc and I just kinda accepted they all deserved to be where they were and have ppl saying they were good. Now time has passed and gone by it feels like Janet managed to go up a few more steps on the ladder of how ppl look at her as a legend than she deserved to based on her talent. Maybe down to being Michael's sister?

I mean when I go through her albums now I think she doesn't deserve a whole folder on her own. There are just a couple of quite good tracks on Rhythm Nation and that's it so she goes in my Various Singers folder with people like Bobby Brown. Don't Be Cruel is a better album than any of Janet's albums for one example, and he wasn't exactly Mozart or whatever, though Bobby probably danced better because classical music doesn't have videos. I mean when Bobby was younger because now he has to quit the tour because he's old and can't breathe. Anyway I just degreased but my point I'm trying to make is really Janet Jackson wasn't really ever that good if you are honest. What was so great? She lost a lot of weight that one time but so did Oprah.

.......

[Edited 7/26/14 12:28pm]

I don't understand the hate for Janet on this site. She's had a very successful career, and she built much of that on her own. Yes, I'm aware that Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis guided her along much of the way, but she sought them out in the first place once she decided to go her own route in the mid-1980s. She also was directly responsible for the music careers of two of her associates (Paula Abdul, Jennifer Lopez) and indirectly responsible for a huge number of wannabes and proteges (TLC, many of the 90's R&B girl groups, Britney Spears, Beyonce, Ciara, Mya, etc.). The Super Bowl really hurt her career a lot, but her pop chart success was already beginning to wane a bit because she was getting older and being pushed aside by many of her proteges. Sure, some people think Janet is a "forgotten" artist now, but if that's the case, so are a bunch of artists from the 80's and early 90's. Madonna may be a legendary female pop singer, but to most of today's young fans she's a has-been. Whitney is dead, Mariah is the generational equivalent of Za Za Gabor or Charo (frankly, I'm actually dreading that she may go "coochie coochie" in public), Celine Dion is that Vegas act like Siegfried and Roy, and Britney and Xtina are those teen idols who used to be huge but are just reality TV stars now.

Half the people in here throwing stones at her are just genuine trolls, and the others are woefully uninformed. I do wonder why so many on The Org seem to dislike her, though. Putting her career aside, there just seems to be a distaste for anything Janet on this site. Actually, I don't wonder about it. I just chalk it up to envy . She is now and will forever be Janet, Miss Jackson if you're nasty, and for some reason it just ticks people off. Michael wasn't the only superstar in that family. Sorry. And, without question, Janet has also always been more talented and infinitely more beautiful than Madonna. J-Lo was basically introduced to the masses by her, Paula Abdul was able to shine as a performer in her own right because of her, Britney Spears, Ciara et. al. are basically Janet 2.0., etc., etc., etc. I think when people demean her because of the SB incident, it's either one of two things, racism or sexism. I've never seen this country get into an uproar over something so ludicrous than when it came to that incident in 2004.

thesoulbrother said:

neko said:

Growing up there were all these big stars. Huge superstars like MJ and Madonna and then the next level down u had ppl like Janet Jackson, Phil Collins, Jeffrey Osborne, Tina Turner and Prince etc etc and I just kinda accepted they all deserved to be where they were and have ppl saying they were good. Now time has passed and gone by it feels like Janet managed to go up a few more steps on the ladder of how ppl look at her as a legend than she deserved to based on her talent. Maybe down to being Michael's sister?

I mean when I go through her albums now I think she doesn't deserve a whole folder on her own. There are just a couple of quite good tracks on Rhythm Nation and that's it so she goes in my Various Singers folder with people like Bobby Brown. Don't Be Cruel is a better album than any of Janet's albums for one example, and he wasn't exactly Mozart or whatever, though Bobby probably danced better because classical music doesn't have videos. I mean when Bobby was younger because now he has to quit the tour because he's old and can't breathe. Anyway I just degreased but my point I'm trying to make is really Janet Jackson wasn't really ever that good if you are honest. What was so great? She lost a lot of weight that one time but so did Oprah.

.......

[Edited 7/26/14 12:28pm]

For real. And, he pretty much nullified anything else he had to say with what I highlighted. SMH.

Qazz said:

I really think that if not for the "Jackson" name and the connections it brought and the talent of super producers Jam & Lewis, there would have never been a Janet. What record company would have signed Janet if Michael wasn't her brother? Who else could have given her a hit but Flyte Tyme? How many memorable dance performances were there before she was partnered with Paula Abdul? Janet was pampered in a way that most of her peers weren't. She didn't have to carry around demo tapes and play dingy clubs. She always had a seat at the AMA's and could at the very least get Dick Clark to book her even during those crappy "Young Love/Don't Stand Another Chance" days.

To her credit I'll be fair to say that she had enough energy to take her connections and run with them, but look at what ultimately happened. She stopped working with JJ&TL and her hits immediately dried up, the Jackson name stopped being a commercial lightening rod and is now more of a "heritage" brand, so that's not helping her. Without a PERFECT team in place, Janet crumbles.

The way she crashed and burned and never recovered says something about the depth of her actual talent and success. Whitney was a crackhead and media pariah, but EVERYBODY was willing to embrace the idea of a comeback with I LOOK TO YOU and she scored a platinum album...Mariah is a headcase and has had several episodes where she utterely humiliated herself in public and become fodder for laughter, but she still bounced back with MIMI and several more huge hits...Madonna's done MANY things that would have killed anyone else's career, but she always manages to outfox her detractors and bounce back...Michael was WACKO JACKO with 2 child molestation scandals under his belt, but that THIS IS IT tour was something everybody immediately was on board for and had he not died and actually pulled it off I get the feeling the world would have embraced another album from him.

Janet just for whatever reason doesn't have any survival skills, which to me says that her whole career was a facade that was based on how well other people assisted her.

Janet's "hits dried up" because raido and MTV wimped out of promoting her output after the Super Bowl incident. Her last top 20 hit had nothing to do with Jimmy Jam or Terry Lewis, so there's that. As for how she got a record deal, well, anyone who knows music knows that she had connections. So what? Why begrudge her because she didn't have to do what others had to do to get in the door? It makes you sound bitter. Janet had the talent and drive, drive that her siblings didn't have, to ascend to the heights of music stardom, which is exactly what she did. And, as was mentioned, many celebs and fans of late have been questioning her inevitable return to music on various social media formats. Jimmy Jam has been hinting at it for the past few months on Twitter, as have her choreographer Gil and several other producers, so the notion that people don't want her to return is kind of lame. Why don't you run along and type 'Janet Jackson Comeback 2014' into Google and then get back to us, because right now, you're kinda not making any sense. And as for her dancing before Paula Abdul came into the picture, well, it seems to me like she could cut a rug just fine...

Control album does it for me,such a Prince like production.

No, which Janet Jackson album is better than Don't Be Cruel? Bobby is no great artist but he struck gold with that one and you can still listen to it today and it's pretty fresh. Janet Jackson's music get more and more old sounding and every time I go back I find less I like and less that is interesting to me in the music. Paula Abdul is a better dancer but not a better singer, but who knows maybe Paula's a better cook or gardener or better at putting her makeup on which would put her just ahead of Janet overall.

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Dear gods what an awesome thread...

Where do I stand on Ms. Jackson?? She was aiiight...

Musically a 7, she was a skosh better than Paula Abdul, just a skosh...

Acting a 4, she gets points for getting in front of the lens and saying words that were already written for her...

For the record, I am a Moderator... not a

It's fair enough about the acting. I've seen worse. For a singer trying a bit of acting she's ok. A bit like if you had a leaky pipe if you didn't have a plumber I could try to fix it for you, but nobody should really be too happy about that arrangement and certainly nobody should be getting paid for it.

neko said:

No, which Janet Jackson album is better than Don't Be Cruel?

Damn near most of 'em.

SeventeenDayze said:

mancabdriver said:

That's exactly how I feel about Michael Jackson.

Other than 'lady in my life' (which is my absolute favourite song but him by a LONNNNG shot) I don't think the dude ever did a convincing love song.

I just could not relate to him and found 85% of his output cheesy or recyled to what he did 10 years before.

He was the kind of artist you were forced to listen to by your parents when you were small because you didn't know any better and so have a nostalgic connection with his music.

But that's just my opinion. The world would be a boring place if we all agreed on the same thing

Even though it wasn't a ballad per se, what did you think about Man in the Mirror? I think the Bad album was probably where his best ballads were (I Just Can't Stop Loving You). I think some of his mid-tempo stuff on Invincible was good. What do you think? Do you think he was a megastar more for his stage presence and dance moves?

To a certain extent I agree with this.

I can understand why people love 'man in the mirror' it is a well written and perfectly sung track. But I just don't feel a connection with it.

Perhaps if people didn't over play his music or hail him as the second coming I would have a far more objective opinion on his music and maybe appreciate it for what it is rather than be distracted by the hype.

But overall I dislike the production of ‘Bad’. The backing vocals on ‘the way you make me feel’ are the epitome of cheese.

Ive never been into any of the Jacksons, but i actually liked Janet's voice (its not strong, but it didn't need to be.. not everyone needs to have a voice like Jennifer Hudson). And I thought she was actually a pretty good actress. She certainly was a WAY WAY WAY better actress than either Prince or Madonna (in my opinion of course). I don't think she's in any way overrated. I think she gets the props she deserves for her talent.

SEANMAN said:

TD3 said:

Hater? How old are we? A question was asked andI answered it. There are those who have a different point of view - cool, it takes all kinds. If some need to constantly hear the sound of their own voice and/or their opinion(s) reaffirmed; I'd suggest you find a Jackson site for which group speak will no doubt occur.

Neither Ivy nor I insulted anyone who expressed their admiration for Ms. Jackson music. Ivy and I do share the opinion, Ms. Jackson couldn't sing in a shower let alone out of one. Producers, videos, and her last name gave her career. Looking at upteem posters doesn't make a singer, being able to sing does. Hate doesn't figure into the equation..

I don't remember referring to you per se as a hater, but if the shoe fits and/or if you're that offended by what I'm saying to someone else (I have no clue who Ivy is, so you may have to help me with that one), then slip it on and wear it. It is not the fact that you say that you don't like Janet's music that's the problem, it's the tone by which you are saying it that's the issue. There are plenty of artists I don't like, but I wouldn't make a habit of saying that they have "zero talent" and are riding on coattails or whatever, just to be obnoxious for obnoxious's sake, which is exactly what you and some of the others in here are. And as for my opinions and the need to have them reaffirmed, well you can just save it. I have no need to have any opinion that I have on Janet reaffirmed, but if someone makes stupid blanket statements about her career when I KNOW the opposite is true, then you can best believe that I will make my opinions known. IN DETAIL. Now you can take that however you want to take it.

[Edited 7/27/14 16:06pm]

Its obvious you can't take it when others don't share your point of view. Its a difference of opinion, no more or no less. No one has called you stupid for your admiration of Ms. Jacksos entertaiment career, but its a word you've used. Again, how old are we? Because your reaction has been way over the top; more like a petulant child who stomps up and down because everyone doesn't agree with you.

==========================================

[Edited 7/28/14 8:33am]

VoicesCarry said:

neko said:

No, which Janet Jackson album is better than Don't Be Cruel?

Damn near most of 'em.

I personally think 'Don't be cruel' is better than every Whitney and Usher album.

And the following Janet albums:

1. Janet Jackson

2. Dream Street

3. All for you

4. 20YO

5. Discipline

I'm not saying that these albums are bad - I love 20YO. But DBC is amazing and one of the greatest examples of New Jack Swing done right. But no way better than or as influential as the rest of her catalogue.

[Edited 7/28/14 7:38am]

Janet had star quality and magnetism. Like others have said in this thread, they couldn't make a star of LaToya or Rebbie, because they didn't have *it*.

WatchThemFall said:

Janet had star quality and magnetism. Like others have said in this thread, they couldn't make a star of LaToya or Rebbie, because they didn't have *it*.

But they didn't just not have *it* they had the anti-*it* actively working against them being good. They would have needed to be produced by Jesus to get into the positive.

Janet had everything possible around her set up to make the most of her modest talents. That's my conclusion from reading this thread. Some nice gifs and some minor artists less famous than her saying they looked up to her do not change that. Britney copying your dance move or Zack Morris having a poster of you on his fictional bedroom wall doesn't make someone good.

Her singing voice is like a 12 year boy's vocal chords being subjected to coat-hanger abortion.

TD3 said:

SEANMAN said:

I don't remember referring to you per se as a hater, but if the shoe fits and/or if you're that offended by what I'm saying to someone else (I have no clue who Ivy is, so you may have to help me with that one), then slip it on and wear it. It is not the fact that you say that you don't like Janet's music that's the problem, it's the tone by which you are saying it that's the issue. There are plenty of artists I don't like, but I wouldn't make a habit of saying that they have "zero talent" and are riding on coattails or whatever, just to be obnoxious for obnoxious's sake, which is exactly what you and some of the others in here are. And as for my opinions and the need to have them reaffirmed, well you can just save it. I have no need to have any opinion that I have on Janet reaffirmed, but if someone makes stupid blanket statements about her career when I KNOW the opposite is true, then you can best believe that I will make my opinions known. IN DETAIL. Now you can take that however you want to take it.

[Edited 7/27/14 16:06pm]

Its obvious you can't take it when others don't share your point of view. Its a difference of opinion, no more or no less. No one has called you stupid for your admiration of Ms. Jacksos entertaiment career, but its a word you've used. Again, how old are we? Because your reaction has been way over the top; more like a petulant child who stomps up and down because everyone doesn't agree with you.

==========================================

[Edited 7/28/14 8:33am]

Surely, I can't be the only one who was thoroughly entertained by Seanman's response. Please don't discourage people from being candid about their opinions! Besides, there are plenty worse posts by others on the Org

Oh and Seanman is right about the Janet references online. I was on Instagram yesterday and saw a reference, so it's not like she still isn't making an impact on some level.

VoicesCarry said:

Counter-point to the OP:

Control

Janet Jackson's Rhythym Nation 1814

janet.

The Velvet Rope

All ace albums. All R&B classics. There's really no argument to be made about their status or acclaim, which have effectively sealed her legacy. (Which, by the way, far exceeds anything Bobby Brown has ever accomplished in his rather limited career, so not sure why that comparison was made).

And the Janet-only-had-a-music-career-because-of-her-last-name point is, quite frankly, lame as fuck. If it was so easy, then it would have worked for Jermaine, La Toya, etc.

The bottom line is it was probably much harder for Janet to distinguish herself from her brother, and yet she established herself as a powerhouse artist and star in her own right. That takes talent, guts and hustle, and I have no doubt she had to work her ass off for it. Kudos to her - I have mad respect for that.

Bottom line. She is an Icon whether people like her or not. She has the albums, tours, influence, and performances to back it up. Currently, she is underrated.

neko said:

WatchThemFall said:

Janet had star quality and magnetism. Like others have said in this thread, they couldn't make a star of LaToya or Rebbie, because they didn't have *it*.

But they didn't just not have *it* they had the anti-*it* actively working against them being good. They would have needed to be produced by Jesus to get into the positive.

Janet had everything possible around her set up to make the most of her modest talents. That's my conclusion from reading this thread. Some nice gifs and some minor artists less famous than her saying they looked up to her do not change that. Britney copying your dance move or Zack Morris having a poster of you on his fictional bedroom wall doesn't make someone good.

If you only read the negative posts, than yes, that's the conclusion

nextedition said:

It's very simple: if it was only her last name, latoya would have been a big star, but she wasn't If it only was jam&lewis, cherelle & co would have been big stars, but they weren't You can have a hit without any talent, but not a career like janet. You may not like her, but saying she doesn't have talent is just lame. You're not gonna have that much succes without talent. Her voice might not be that strong but the way she sang Nasty, rhythm nation etc. only she could. She has the voice for this kind of dance music. It blends in with the beat.

good points.

lezama said:

nextedition said:

It's very simple: if it was only her last name, latoya would have been a big star, but she wasn't If it only was jam&lewis, cherelle & co would have been big stars, but they weren't You can have a hit without any talent, but not a career like janet. You may not like her, but saying she doesn't have talent is just lame. You're not gonna have that much succes without talent. Her voice might not be that strong but the way she sang Nasty, rhythm nation etc. only she could. She has the voice for this kind of dance music. It blends in with the beat.

good points.

Agreed. Also, it is reaching to say she can't sing by comparing her to BELTERS (ie. Bobby Brown). Janet's vocal performances also conveyed various emotion, and I might add, IN CORRECT PITCH (way before autotune technology). She may have lipsynced plenty of performances but she sang plenty live sounding perfect. I don't know why fans are expected to diminish her vocal prowess.