Let's not get too carried away with that "daddy's girl" comment I made.

Though this "I just want to please you" stuff has got to get toned down in contemporary entertainment. A certain percentage of women are like that and it's a part of their sexuality, but it's not some sort of a rule on "how women should behave" as the entertainment industry seems to want it to be the case now. Influencing an entire generation of teenaged girls and young adults to think that's the norm for female sexuality is a bit of a scary thought.

I hope I'm not veering too much into bullshit with these comments, but it is just something I've observed around me (reading Facebook and forum comments has enforced that impression too).

[Edited 2/27/14 4:47am]

novabrkr said:

The problem with these videos isn't the sexuality, it's how ridiculously SUBMISSIVE the depiction of female sexuality in them is. Madonna wasn't like that at all. These new "superstars" are simply interested in fulfilling male fantasies, not using the imagery and the themes for something more complicated and interesting. You'd think that these chicks with millions on their bank accounts wouldn't have to resort to putting out these type of products one after another, so I'm starting to think they really do have some sort of "daddy's girl" issues.

Good point!

However one feels about Bey taking it there, I HATE when that makes people call her or any other woman a slut and whore! Seriously, those words should be banned!

I avoid using those words myself, but people should accept that their actions have consequences and name-calling is hardly among the worst of them.

novabrkr said:

I avoid using those words myself, but people should accept that their actions have consequences and name-calling is hardly among the worst of them.

Right, but women are being called sluts and whores for so many things, most of them nothing that justifies those words being used. I don't see Bey having sex here.

VenusBlingBling said:

However one feels about Bey taking it there, I HATE when that makes people call her or any other woman a slut and whore! Seriously, those words should be banned!

I won't call her a slut but she's definitely a follower like everyone else trying to out sex each other. I'd been fine if this was to "stand out" but since it's the norm...

[Edited 2/27/14 8:31am]

VenusBlingBling said:

novabrkr said:

I avoid using those words myself, but people should accept that their actions have consequences and name-calling is hardly among the worst of them.

Right, but women are being called sluts and whores for so many things, most of them nothing that justifies those words being used. I don't see Bey having sex here.

Yeah, I would have agreed on that 10 years ago, or even just a few years ago. It's just that this sort of stuff has gone so overboard in contemporary entertainment that I can't say I'd feel sympathy for someone like Beyonce for being subjected to name-calling. What did she expect the reactions to be anyway?

Other women shouldn't take that automatically on themselves either. It's not like I am myself insulted if someone uses some derogatory term on Chris Brown, Usher or whomever. I mean, they really are all assholes, right?

novabrkr said:

VenusBlingBling said:

Right, but women are being called sluts and whores for so many things, most of them nothing that justifies those words being used. I don't see Bey having sex here.

Yeah, I would have agreed on that 10 years ago, or even just a few years ago. It's just that this sort of stuff has gone so overboard in contemporary entertainment that I can't say I'd feel sympathy for someone like Beyonce for being subjected to name-calling. What did she expect the reactions to be anyway?

Other women shouldn't take that automatically on themselves either. It's not like I am myself insulted if someone uses some derogatory term on Chris Brown, Usher or whomever. I mean, they really are all assholes, right?

But it's surely about what the point behind the name calling is, i.e. what kinds of 'actions' it wants to call out and why (not to mention the 'consequences' it threatens). I think you're right to say that the problem with all this stuff is not female sexuality but the way it's bound up with submissiveness, and the message that helps send; but calling a woman a 'slut' is usually about telling her she's been too free with her sexuality and needs to be more submissive to the demands of what the men of the society want from 'their' women, conserving her 'virtue' by confining her sexuality within the bounds of monogamy, marriage, etc - lest she gets 'a reputation'. Maybe that's what some of her critics are angling at, but it seems to be expressing something quite different to what your well-said point against this dismal submissiveness, but not against female sexuality, was all about.

[Edited 2/27/14 9:52am]

deebee said:

novabrkr said:

Yeah, I would have agreed on that 10 years ago, or even just a few years ago. It's just that this sort of stuff has gone so overboard in contemporary entertainment that I can't say I'd feel sympathy for someone like Beyonce for being subjected to name-calling. What did she expect the reactions to be anyway?

Other women shouldn't take that automatically on themselves either. It's not like I am myself insulted if someone uses some derogatory term on Chris Brown, Usher or whomever. I mean, they really are all assholes, right?

But it's surely about what the point behind the name calling is, i.e. what kinds of 'actions' it wants to call out and why (not to mention the 'consequences' it threatens). I think you're right to say that the problem with all this stuff is not female sexuality but the way it's bound up with submissiveness, and the message that helps send; but calling a woman a 'slut' is usually about telling her she's been too free with her sexuality and needs to be more submissive to the demands of what the men of the society want from 'their' women, conserving her 'virtue' by confining her sexuality within the bounds of monogamy, marriage, etc - lest she gets 'a reputation'. Maybe that's what some of her critics are angling at, but it seems to be expressing something quite different to what your well-said point against this dismal submissiveness, but not against female sexuality, was all about.

[Edited 2/27/14 9:52am]

Well put!

deebee said:

novabrkr said:

Yeah, I would have agreed on that 10 years ago, or even just a few years ago. It's just that this sort of stuff has gone so overboard in contemporary entertainment that I can't say I'd feel sympathy for someone like Beyonce for being subjected to name-calling. What did she expect the reactions to be anyway?

Other women shouldn't take that automatically on themselves either. It's not like I am myself insulted if someone uses some derogatory term on Chris Brown, Usher or whomever. I mean, they really are all assholes, right?

But it's surely about what the point behind the name calling is, i.e. what kinds of 'actions' it wants to call out and why (not to mention the 'consequences' it threatens). I think you're right to say that the problem with all this stuff is not female sexuality but the way it's bound up with submissiveness, and the message that helps send; but calling a woman a 'slut' is usually about telling her she's been too free with her sexuality and needs to be more submissive to the demands of what the men of the society want from 'their' women, conserving her 'virtue' by confining her sexuality within the bounds of monogamy, marriage, etc - lest she gets 'a reputation'. Maybe that's what some of her critics are angling at, but it seems to be expressing something quite different to what your well-said point against this dismal submissiveness, but not against female sexuality, was all about.

[Edited 2/27/14 9:52am]

But that's not what it's about at all anymore at this point.

I don't see her being "free" at all myself and that's what's bothering me about this. She's someone that has a great voice, has already made a lot of money with her work, yet she still feels some sort of a need to present herself in this way. Why, exactly? One of the more obvious reasons would be to get even more money, but it's still a bit puzzling. I feel the same way about Mariah Carey and a few other big names.

Your analysis of the usage of that word might have been correct still just a while ago, but these days I can't agree on that interpretation. The word really just means that someone is not behaving in a "dignified" manner, especially when trying to use sex as a "shortcut" for materialist ends. Again, I should stress that I don't like to use the word myself, but I'm not as opposed to people using it as much as I once was.

I'm not at all against "erotica" either, but it just needs to be done in a little bit more creative manner than what we see in this video. There are some scenes here that are actually quite nice, but in overall, this and her recent award show performance are a bit too much. Change a few things in this video and it might be art, but this way, no.

I'm not a big fan of Madonna myself, but she used to do these type of things in a far more interesting way. Her work had a sentiment of "freeness" to it because it challenged the listeners / viewers in a way that was actually quite intellectual. This stuff is just capitalist and chauvinist values mixed together in a blatant way.

[Edited 2/27/14 10:57am]

^

novabrkr said:

deebee said:

But it's surely about what the point behind the name calling is, i.e. what kinds of 'actions' it wants to call out and why (not to mention the 'consequences' it threatens). I think you're right to say that the problem with all this stuff is not female sexuality but the way it's bound up with submissiveness, and the message that helps send; but calling a woman a 'slut' is usually about telling her she's been too free with her sexuality and needs to be more submissive to the demands of what the men of the society want from 'their' women, conserving her 'virtue' by confining her sexuality within the bounds of monogamy, marriage, etc - lest she gets 'a reputation'. Maybe that's what some of her critics are angling at, but it seems to be expressing something quite different to what your well-said point against this dismal submissiveness, but not against female sexuality, was all about.

[Edited 2/27/14 9:52am]

But that's not what it's about at all anymore at this point.

I don't see her being "free" at all myself and that's what's bothering me about this. She's someone that has a great voice, has already made a lot of money with her work, yet she still feels some sort of a need to present herself in this way. Why, exactly? One of the more obvious reasons would be money, but it's still a bit puzzling. I feel the same way about Mariah Carey and a few other big names.

Your analysis of the usage of that word might have been correct still just a while ago, but these days I can't agree on that interpretation. The word really just means that someone is not behaving in a "dignified" manner, especially when trying to use sex as a "shortcut" for materialist ends. Again, I should stress that I don't like to use the word myself, but I'm not as opposed to people using it as much as I once was.

I'm not at all against "erotica" either, but it just needs to be done in a little bit more creative manner than what we see in this video. There are some scenes here that are actually quite nice, but in overall, this and her recent award show performance are a bit too much in the end. Change a few things in this video and it might be art, but this way, no.

I'm not a fan of Madonna myself, but she used to do these type of things in a far more interesting way. Her work had a sentiment of "freeness" to it because it challenged the listeners / viewers in a way that was actually quite intellectual.

I agree on pretty much all of that, except for the bolded bits - and I can even go along with the criticism of hawking oneself for quick materialist gain you're saying the word now makes. But I just don't think words 'shed their skin' or shake off their old associations quite so easily, especially not in a short time; and I would still say 'slut' hasn't lost its old meaning, even if there really is some subset of people now using it with the intention of conveying something novel and less misogynist. I mean, I'd have to ask: why don't you use it if it really has lost its old, unpleasant whiff?

Quibbles about words aside, though, I think you're right about what's so dull about this stuff. It's all pretty unimaginative and actually quite conservative, despite being dressed up with talk of 'free expression'.

Okay, I've used a bit too strong expression there myself ("but that's not what it's about at all anymore"). I think the "old" use described is still common, but people are also using it to convey their disappointment in how some people have chosen to behave (especially celebrities). They're using a strong word that has a long history and I suppose that's at least part of the motivation for it. Personally, if I see it used in a reactionary manner, like in this thread, my first assumption is not that the person using it wants women to be "just good wives" etc.

To answer the question why I don't use it myself: my mother was always strongly against the use of such words, instructed me not to use them when I was younger and I don't really see using them necessary. I've heard her using those words a few times more recently, hah, and I might have said something of the kind myself a few times when I've been drunk just to amuse my friends. Can't really remember if I've done that or not. I can remember using the word "slutty" here on prince.org a few times though (probably when referring to someone's clothes).

[Edited 2/27/14 12:11pm]

Ain't gonna apologize for the "slut" word

when I say "slut" I mean a "slut" -> not women in general, and many modern female pop stars LOOK LIKE sluts, expensive cinematography included...

I'd be mad if 8 of every 10 male musicians looked like pimps or muscled pornstars...

I think its appropriate at this time in her career to be sexual.

From 1997, Beyonce never really been a sexual diva. I feel this album, and the 4 seems like Beyonce finally being herself as they are both more laid back.

This one being more sensual and sexual...but blatantly honest in my opinion.

This is her Erotica for sure...all the albums she previosuly released I have to say have all been different from eachother.

Damn yall acting like she is Rihanna now

Anyway, with songs like Pretty Hurts, Haunted, Jealous, Xo, Blow, Grown Woman and Flawless on the same album I can't judge its a great play

[Edited 2/27/14 17:50pm]

Beyonce is an exact motherfucking 5 way split rip off of Janet/Mariah/Diana/Whitney and ESPECIALLY TINA.

What's Madonna Got to do With it?

Britney is Janet/paula/madonna breed...

...Madonna's next of kin are Gaga, Gwen, Pink, Miley IMO

BlaqueKnight said:

JoeTyler said:

and yet another '00s female star using nudity to sell her music

this is truly the era of sluts, the mysoginistic ideal has been reached= nude females everywhere..."show me your body if you wanna achieve something"

pathetic

Man, get outta here with that. You're acting like this is something new or unique. Sex has been selling for a long time. If you haven't noticed then its time to get your head out of that sandbox.

Practically every female pop star has used their looks to sell. As a matter of fact, you can not be a pop star and not use your looks to sell; especially nowadays. Hell, even chicks like Fantasia use what they have to sell.

As far as "slutty" goes: she is in the video dancing and prancing provocatively FOR HER HUSBAND. HER HUSBAND IS RIGHT THERE. She is playing the image of a lady in the streets/freak in the sheets that every husband wants his/her wife to be. There is no slut factor involved here. Beyoncé just has a lot of haters. Besides looking like a sexy chandelier in an outfit or two, she looks hot. Hell, even in the chandalier bustier or whatever that was, she still looks good...FOR HER HUSBAND. He's right there...in the video...with her. Pop stars at her level are paint-by-numbers sexy anyway. You know what they are going to do, they just have "themes" they can work with. Katy Perry - Candy/colors/fun

Nicki Minaj - barbie

Pink - athletic/acrobatic

Britney - costumes/roleplay (this is also what Bey is doing in this video)

This video is not controversial.

BTW, the song sucks.

Hey Blaque, did you know that your boy, "Justin" co-wrote this song?

When I refer to the term whore-I mean the term to take on the biblical sense of the word the old Madonna and the whore syndrome thingy.

I totally agree.When Madonna was doing these things,she wasn't just being "nasty" for the sake of being nasty.She was making a statement,challenging people,breaking down taboos and making people think.There was a purpose to what she was doing.Nowadays,there are many female artists acting all sexually aggressive (lol),but there's no deeper meaning to what they're doing,no point that they're trying to make.They're just doing it because it helps them to sell records.

novabrkr said:

I'm not a big fan of Madonna myself, but she used to do these type of things in a far more interesting way. Her work had a sentiment of "freeness" to it because it challenged the listeners / viewers in a way that was actually quite intellectual. This stuff is just capitalist and chauvinist values mixed together in a blatant way.

I don't see how submissive female sexuality is a problem unless you're one of those people who thinks that because a stereotype exists, no one can behave in that fashion anymore, no matter how harmless the behavior is in and of itself. (see: people mad about Madea being "embarrassing" or WHATEVER)

If she likes being submissive sexually some of the time, or even all of the time, let her.

And it's not like she doesn't have a song about inviting/demanding cunnilingus on her album either................................

katamari said:

I don't see how submissive female sexuality is a problem unless you're one of those people who thinks that because a stereotype exists, no one can behave in that fashion anymore, no matter how harmless the behavior is in and of itself. (see: people mad about Madea being "embarrassing" or WHATEVER)

If she likes being submissive sexually some of the time, or even all of the time, let her.

And it's not like she doesn't have a song about inviting/demanding cunnilingus on her album either................................

Good post. I was thinking "maybe she plays sexually submissive because she IS sexually submissive. Not every woman wants to sleep with a guy and then throw on a strap-on, flip him over and say "my turn!"

She's no Madonna because Madonna came off as a slut. Beyonce has never rocked that style. She, like almost all pop stars, has flirted with it. That is the nature of pop music - playfully sexual innuendo and a sexed-up image to titilate people into buying music and merch.

Music business 101.

katamari said:

I don't see how submissive female sexuality is a problem unless you're one of those people who thinks that because a stereotype exists, no one can behave in that fashion anymore, no matter how harmless the behavior is in and of itself. (see: people mad about Madea being "embarrassing" or WHATEVER)

If she likes being submissive sexually some of the time, or even all of the time, let her.

And it's not like she doesn't have a song about inviting/demanding cunnilingus on her album either................................

The problem isn't what her own sexual preferences are like, the problem is how these things are portrayed and exploited in the media.

badujunkie said:

Beyonce is an exact motherfucking 5 way split rip off of Janet/Mariah/Diana/Whitney and ESPECIALLY TINA.

What's Madonna Got to do With it?

Britney is Janet/paula/madonna breed...

...Madonna's next of kin are Gaga, Gwen, Pink, Miley IMO

I've always said Beyonce was definitely a clone of Tina Turner & Diana Ross, no doubts there.

novabrkr said:

katamari said:

I don't see how submissive female sexuality is a problem unless you're one of those people who thinks that because a stereotype exists, no one can behave in that fashion anymore, no matter how harmless the behavior is in and of itself. (see: people mad about Madea being "embarrassing" or WHATEVER)

If she likes being submissive sexually some of the time, or even all of the time, let her.

And it's not like she doesn't have a song about inviting/demanding cunnilingus on her album either................................

The problem isn't what her own sexual preferences are like, the problem is how these things are portrayed and exploited in the media.

Yet you said this:

novabrkr said:

The problem with these videos isn't the sexuality, it's how ridiculously SUBMISSIVE the depiction of female sexuality in them is. Madonna wasn't like that at all. These new "superstars" are simply interested in fulfilling male fantasies, not using the imagery and the themes for something more complicated and interesting. You'd think that these chicks with millions on their bank accounts wouldn't have to resort to putting out these type of products one after another, so I'm starting to think they really do have some sort of "daddy's girl" issues.

It's how SHE chooses to depict HER sexuality so yes, you actually have a problem with her own sexual preferences. *waits for a rant about the big bad corporate media making one of the richest people in the world write, sing, and perform an oddly specific song about wild sex in a limo*

BlaqueKnight said:

katamari said:

I don't see how submissive female sexuality is a problem unless you're one of those people who thinks that because a stereotype exists, no one can behave in that fashion anymore, no matter how harmless the behavior is in and of itself. (see: people mad about Madea being "embarrassing" or WHATEVER)

If she likes being submissive sexually some of the time, or even all of the time, let her.

And it's not like she doesn't have a song about inviting/demanding cunnilingus on her album either................................

Good post. I was thinking "maybe she plays sexually submissive because she IS sexually submissive. Not every woman wants to sleep with a guy and then throw on a strap-on, flip him over and say "my turn!"

She's no Madonna because Madonna came off as a slut. Beyonce has never rocked that style. She, like almost all pop stars, has flirted with it. That is the nature of pop music - playfully sexual innuendo and a sexed-up image to titilate people into buying music and merch.

Music business 101.

RIGHT. One will find that there are PLENTY of women out in the world who quite liked to be spanked, chocked, called bitch, and made to call their partners "Daddy". Doesn't mean they all were sexually abused as children or don't value themselves as women, it may just be what they like.

Also, it's just one song. "Blow", "Drunk in Love" and even parts of "Rocket" are a bit more aggressive.

I wouldn't even say Madonna came off as a slut. Even during the Erotica era, she seemed to just be out to provoke. Sex is one of the coldest depictions of sexuality I've ever seen. Like "HERE. Here is an implied threesome. Here is public nudity on a highway."

I don't think Beyonce is a slut or a whore for her sexual explicitness. I just think it's boring as hell.

At least let the music be good. I don't really see people talk about Beyonce's music from this album, just how she released it or how hot she looked in such and such video. If she can't put out timeless music how does she expect to be this legend she's so obsessed about being one day?

[Edited 3/1/14 22:03pm]

starbelly said:

I don't think Beyonce is a slut or a whore for her sexual explicitness. I just think it's boring as hell.

At least let the music be good. I don't really see people talk about Beyonce's music from this album, just how she released it or how hot she looked in such and such video. If she can't put out timeless music how does she expect to be this legend she's so obsessed about being one day?

[Edited 3/1/14 22:03pm]

http://www.metacritic.com/music/beyonce/beyonce/critic-reviews

There you go.

[Edited 3/1/14 23:49pm]

She pretty much summed it up in the videos on the album in youtube.

She explains that her fans are growing up with her and it was time she express herself the way she wants to, how she feels as a mother and a wife. Really you should listen to the whole album instead of nitpicking.

nextedition said:

Katamari, Prince.org's automatic functions for simplifying the HTML syntax can't handle that much formatting at the moment due to bugs. Responding to the post you've made above using the quoting functions is impossible without cleaning up the code manually (which is something I won't proceed to do for a poster that insists on adding unnecessary formatting like using a specific colour for his own comments).

Yes, I do have a problem with the way female sexuality is portrayed in the video and it's something that makes me feel uncomfortable on a personal level. Thousands of people have already commented negatively on the video, so I'm hardly alone with those sentiments. Of course you can, and should, use the feeling of something being wrong as the starting point for your criticism.

The biggest "intellectual problem" I have with Beyonce is that she's due to her own will presented herself as a role model for young females, yet her handling of the concept of "female empowerment" is so naive and full of contradictions that she can't be taken seriously. It's not unreasonable to assume that her actions only further confusion among young people on such issues (judged by many of the comments that defend her work that's exactly what's happening). This video has already had 30+ million views on Youtube and will probably exceed 100 million soon enough. What many have already emphasized is that this video is just one amongst many similar ones and the overall tone of many videos that are currently "hot" is very exploitative. These type of videos becoming the standard is the bigger problem here.

There's obviously a difference between personal sexual preferences and the depiction of sexuality in mass media. Why should someone "really having" a certain tendency justify its utilization for commercial purposes? Where's the logical necessity in that? During the last 50 years or so it's of course become rather common to justify questionable depictions of sexuality by referring to the end product as "art", but I'm not really seeing that in this video. This video really is just a vanity project with aesthetic values that aren't that different from a fragrance commercial. Many artists have depicted their own sexual preferences in their work, but they've also understood the appropriate mediums for it. The appropriate medium isn't really VEVO when you know you're going to get millions and millions of views just because you're already famous.

What you've written between the asterisks is not something that I was going to write myself, so I won't address that. It's rude to make up comments yourself and then attribute them as something that the other person would say. It's also very bad argumentation, for that matter.