Forgive if this is a politcally incorrect thread, my intensions are good I swear...

Heavy Metal has never been considered a genre Black folk flock to but I'm curious if Pantera ever attracted anyone. To me they're the only HEAVY metal band with real GROOVE. I don't know what you'd call the 'groovey' influence on their music, funk, jazz, disco, etc.

I don't have the technical knowledge to really describe what I mean, only I picture MJ dancing 'Beat It' style to a lot of their material rather than the usual straight forward 'headbanging' of most Metal.

Here's some examples-

Where You Come From

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyOCeOeqFag

Revolution Is My Name

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XI1DD_vJuY

5 Minutes Alone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7njvwB-Ks

The Great Southern Trendkill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyVdN8GZtc

As a side note, at their commercial peak they was controversy about Phil (the singer and as a side note THE benchmark for metal vocalists who in my opinon has yet to be surpassed) being a racist\ white supremecist but on closer inspection he really wasn't. He had a major back injury whilst performing and was heavily self-medicating (booze, painkillers and eventually heroin) for a long time in order to perform and his on-stage comments became more and more provocative and hostile as a result. He made a few comments about how he felt Hip-Hop artists were wrong to talk about things like 'stopping black on black crime' as he felt the implication was it was ok to commit 'black on white' crime. He also said that EVERYONE should have pride in their heritage, I think even explicitly using the phrase 'white pride' (don't quote me on that). He also clarified on several occasions he had friends from all ethnic backgrounds, some of his personal heroes\idols were American-Afro (I think the emphasis should be on AMERICAN rather than African so I change the order) and the Pantera 'philosophy' was 'all we care about is our own (meaning their fans)'. I think I also read an account of 2 American-Afro girls\fans who made it backstage after a show and said Phil was very personable and charming toward them but they did feel Vinnie Paul the drummer was rude to them).

To put it in context Phil is a VERY opinionated guy with a MASSIVE of a chip on his shoulder, he isn't afraid to be confrontational. He's gotten into fights with concert security, disruptive fans and recently was involved in an incident with Down where someone threw a beer toward the stage and he stopped the show, told the crowd to push the 'coward' to the front, brought him on stage and berated him to get on his knees and apologize to the band and the fans.

Here's an example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eDp4wFUPMw

Here's the 'on your knees' incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkPg-5RWz8U

[Edited 10/20/13 11:16am]

To me, there seems to be a white supremacist element among heavy metal bands and their fans. That's what turns me off to the genre. Phil Anselmo comes off as an angry, racist prick. You say he's not, who really knows?

YES! Their cover of Sabbath's PLANET CARAVAN is just everything (I prefer it to Sabbath's, actually)

uPtoWnNY said:

To me, there seems to be a white supremacist element among heavy metal bands and their fans. That's what turns me off to the genre. Phil Anselmo comes off as an angry, racist prick. You say he's not, who really knows?

What about the music though? Is there anyting you find appealing about it?

Oh he definitely is an angry prick with an ego (surpirise, surprise he has 'Father Issues') whoes 'hyper-masculinity' sometimes strays into self-parody but as a Heavy Metal Frontman that's kinda part of his appeal... I don't think he's a racist, I think he's an 'equal-opportunity' hater.

Actually I'm being a bit unfair to him. 'Vulgar Display of Power', their breakthrough and probably what most consider their definitive album, lyrically is about empowerment through anger. "A new LEVELLLLLLLLLLLLLL Of CONFIDENCE! And Power! (Such Power!)"I remember at least one reviewer likening it to Hip-Hop in that sense, turning negative emotions into catharthis\empowerment.

It was his descent into drug dependence which signalled his lyrics getting darker... and his clumsy on-stage ranting began, not just about politics but other metal bands and especially other genres (constantly referncing 'trends' and how much he despised them). The video I posted isn't a great example, he's coherent and lucid in that one.

[Edited 10/20/13 7:47am]

I'm not black mixed with other stuff though

Any-who i have lots of black friends who love heavy metal. I know there is a sterotype black people only listen to rap, r&B etc. And whites like rock, country etc.

Dimebag and the rest besides Phill were cool guys! and not racists at all. Phil... well idk he for sure kind of has a white supremacy thing going on. And he's an angry, bitter, violent ole fuck. How the other guys put up with him so long idk...

I am! Vulgar Display of Power is bad ass album. Yes, I'm aware of the controversy behind them and Phil Anselmo. I definitely felt awkward about listening to them for a while. My friend (who is also black) actually had the balls to ask Phil if he was racist once when we met him outside of Roseland in NY back in the 90s. I was terrified and didn't know what he would say. His response was "hell no i aint no racist". Who knows for sure?? They are from the south so you never know but they definitely made great music.

So how would y'all characterize their groove?

Would you say you can dance to it?

What is the sense of 'swing' I detect in their music?

Here's another favourite of mine, Shedding Skin

http://www.youtube.com/wa...igViwDG_nw

And another although we're starting to get away from the 'groove', The Underground in America

http://www.youtube.com/wa...rRuYJibyoo

And possibly my all time favourite song of theirs, again not particularly groovy. Suicide Note Pt II

http://www.youtube.com/wa...YqGCs1BR9I

These last two are from what is probably their darkest and angriest album, The Great SOuthern Trendkill. Phil later disowned it saying he was in a dark drug haze and on reflection thought it was too 'negative'. Whilst touring in support of it he overdosed on Heroin, died then was revived by paramedics. He would later admit it wasn't his first overdose.

[Edited 10/20/13 11:28am]

In my opinion, the reason Pantera was successful when Phil joined the group was because he had the attitude that attracted the " stereotypical " metalhead fan, a disgrunteld white teen who had not much contact with " others " . The Pantera that exsisted pre Phil were a run of the mill metal group, not quite over the top make up and hairsrpay ala Poison or early Motley Crüe or drunk party assholes like Guns n' Roses and later Crüe . With all the competition for ears from music in the early 90's , Phil had the persona that type of fan wanted, if Cobain was too odd for their taste and Rage Against The Machine was too exotic, enter Cowboy From Hell rage and Vulgar Display fire, SUCCESS! I guess that type of attention bought upon a group brings all types of problems, since Phil was not an original member he could not take control of the group from Darrell and Vinnie, if those two did not like the direction they were going, the group falls apart.

Amid all my rambling here, I respect Pantera as a group, they were capable musicians and made a major impact during their peak. It was a shame that the asshole who killed Darrell was so selfish to commit that act, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that the reason he did it was Pantera was no more, Dimebag wanted to change his musical direction and that asshole could not accept his limited world view being disripted.

As a Drummer, I used 2 think that Lars (Metallica) was the sh*t until Pantera came out. Vinnie Paul BLOWS HIS SH*T AWAY!!!!!!

It DOES suck that Dimebag was killed tho', cuz I think they woulda got back 2gether & continued 2 KICK ASS

R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell!!!!

woogiebear said:

As a Drummer, I used 2 think that Lars (Metallica) was the sh*t until Pantera came out. Vinnie Paul BLOWS HIS SH*T AWAY!!!!!!

It DOES suck that Dimebag was killed tho', cuz I think they woulda got back 2gether & continued 2 KICK ASS

R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell!!!!

As a drummer how would characterize Pantera's groove? I'm really curious cause it feels somewhat 'dancy' to me but I can't put my finger on why, perhaps I'm wrong...

I could definitely get into the music if Phil didn't come off as a klansman. Shit, one of my favorite bands (Alice in Chains) is considered metal by some.

rainman1985 said:

woogiebear said:

As a Drummer, I used 2 think that Lars (Metallica) was the sh*t until Pantera came out. Vinnie Paul BLOWS HIS SH*T AWAY!!!!!!

It DOES suck that Dimebag was killed tho', cuz I think they woulda got back 2gether & continued 2 KICK ASS

R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell!!!!

As a drummer how would characterize Pantera's groove? I'm really curious cause it feels somewhat 'dancy' to me but I can't put my finger on why, perhaps I'm wrong...

U can definitely dance 2 Vinnie Paul's beats!!!!!

woogiebear said:

rainman1985 said:

As a drummer how would characterize Pantera's groove? I'm really curious cause it feels somewhat 'dancy' to me but I can't put my finger on why, perhaps I'm wrong...

U can definitely dance 2 Vinnie Paul's beats!!!!!

What is that 'dancey' feel in his playing? Funk? Jazz? I don't know how to describe it other than I feel there's a sense of 'swing' whereas most metal is just 'straight ahead'. Is it in his playing or the dynamics of his kit?

I know that the Bassist, Rex, had a formative background in Jazz and you can hear it especially when what he plays underneath Dimebag's solos, it's got that 'walking' feel.

Another specific drum performance that comes to mind as having that sense of 'swing' is 'Beyond the Realms of Death' by Judas Priest.

What I love so much about '5 Minutes Alone' is it just seems to have everything that made Pantera great. There's that stop\start riff, some 'thrashy' yet 'swinging' parts, that instrumental section with Rex 'walking' underneath Dime's shredding and it's all made cohesive by Phil's raging vocals. That's something I'd say made Pantera unique, the music could seemlessly blend 'groove'\'swinging''boogie' section (I always thought Van Halen was the primary influence there) with Doom n' Gloom Sabbath styleslow and heavy sections and Phil could yell\shout\scream\spit these dark\angry lyrics and yet somehow it felt 'uplifting' and cathartic. The only other band that had that feel for me was Korn and I'm pretty sure their grooves had a disco\funk influence.

[Edited 10/24/13 1:57am]

What if Phil Anselmo decided on a career change?

http://www.youtube.com/wa...IdCwtIijOA

Phil is a racist I heard. Dimebag wasn't.

I don't want to derail this thread and make whether or not Phil is a racist but here are the lyruics to "No Good (Attack the Radical)" from Vulgar Display of Power, which to me are about how being a racist is redundant, humans have always been xenophobic by nature and it's up to you to rise above and see we're all people and it would be a lonely world if you eliminated all of the 'other'.

In the states
There's a problem with race
Because of ignorant past burned fires
From evolution
We've been killing each other
I figure man should have it down to a science


No chance
Not for a minute
Not for a second
I won't be defensive
I'm straight out in my opinion
You'ld better listen to a man who knows what he is saying
I've seen your side
You run and hide for the mere fact that you feel inferior
Be superior
And know your interior

Race, pride, prejudice
Black man, white man
No stand
Live in the past
We make it last
A hated mass
No solution
Mind pollution
For revolution

So low behold my eyes
This land of fools will rise
No good
For no one

You blame oppression and play the role of criminals
To rape and burn show progress is minimal
White hoods and militants you know it's such a pity
Living, breathing
Violence in your city


If one man
Had one home
In one world
Held live alone without variety
Full of anxiety
No one to point at, question
Or even talk to -- in his private grave
No matter what color
He wouldn't be saved from hell
He dwells
A closed mind playing the part of prison cells

Race, pride, prejudice
Black man, white man
No stand
Live in the past
We make it last
A hated mass
No solution
Mind pollution
For revolution

So low behold my eyes
This land of fools will rise
No good
For no one

[Edited 10/27/13 7:09am]