NDRU said:

At least it's not Miley Cyrus.

OMG! Perish the thought!!!

Completely harmless question. Also it is significant to note that it does point somewhat toward post-racialism to have these two dudes topping the RnB charts...good for them.

When we identify certain types of music we are speaking of it's origins, not saying it can be limited to who can sing or play that type of music.

No one would complain, for example if I were to speak about Chinese music, Mexican music, Indian music, etc. so there is no need to be sensitive when we identify any kind of music with where it originated.

thebanishedone said:

Why are people so sensitive about saying the words like black and white? There are white, black yellow and green people.Thicke and Justin are doing blue eyed soul. Blue eyed soul is when white singer sings rnb based music.

+1

There's also Duffy, who's a white british chick, and does R&B/Blues perfectly.. also Amy Winehouse.

I personally find it curious that white people in general would never consider saying something like "I don't see Bhangra as Indian music" or "I don't see K Pop as Korean or J Pop as Japanese." They would never fix their mouths to say I don't see Reggae as Island music. Yet these same people feel that American musical artforms created by American blacks should somehow not be directly and solely associated with with the peeople that made and initially, SOLELY supported it. Jazz, blues and dare I say it, ROCK, all started within the American black community and during their initial stages, were solely supported by black people. (In this conversation, black = African American).

I wonder where hip-hop would be today if it didn't end up supporting the music industry in the early 90s. Nothing else was making any real money besides grunge. Nonetheless, when it comes to hip-hop and I guess now R&B, white people have decided that it is not "black" even though the black community has supported R&B through thick and thin and about 95% of R&B is made by black Americans.

Could it be that like the cotton gin, white people still consider anything made by their "slaves" their property?

Could it be that culture vulturism is easily permitted and excused when it comes to black Americans because there is no fear of repercussions of any sort? (see: Zydeco music)

Could it be that "I don't see color"only applies when speaking on anything pertaining to blacks or black American culture?

Who makes these "charts" and do these "charts" really mean that someone is "king" of said genre?

Its kinda like when Rolling Stone declared Eminem "king of hip-hop" when hip-hop is so much bigger than what he was doing, but because it resonated with mainstreamers, he is somehow declared king?

Now its R&B.

George Michael was never an R&B artist. He was crossover, which is why so many people had a problem with him winning best R&B artist back in '89. Back then, people tried to justify it with "Bobby McFarren won best pop song" but "Don't Worry; Be happy" was a pop song. "Faith" was NOT an R&B record any more than Adele's 21 is. It did have songs that could be considered R&B on it but that was not the overall content of the record. He was not really a "favorite R&B male vocalist" in the eyes of the R&B community. To this day, I have never met an R&B head that lists George Michael as one of their favorite R&B vocalists.

Now its Robin Thicke & Justin Timberlake? I have to consider the source of the misinformation. These are the same people who will in one breath, say R&B is dead and yet never make mention of the contribution of singers like Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton or Bilal. Some of the people making those claims don't even know who they are. Erykah Badu just dropped off the planet, huh?

People have come to value political correctness far too much.

There is nothing wrong with being honest about black Americasn culture. There is nothing wrong about respecting the opinions of the creators of said culture. As was said earlier, no one would dare try to claim a white "king" of Reggae or Bhangra. That is because those cultures don't let the mainstream dictate to them what is what in their own culture. It is also because whites don't $upport those genres to the extent that they do others. Just because you put some money in something doesn't mean you get to dictate it.

So, make your charts and get Rolling Stone and whatever other musical journals you control to say whatever you want. That doesn't make it so. R&B heads know what's up in the R&B community. Having a hit doesn't make you "king" by any stretch.

Maybe that declaration is a metaphor for desiring to rule over blacks in some way, shape or form? Perhaps is it the exercising of cultural white supremacy via the media?

Anyway, no matter how many times you play "Blurred Lines", I will always think of Marvin Gaye's "Got to Give It Up" when it comes on and reminisce on a REAL "King of R&B" and whenever I hear anything Timberfake drops, I tend to think of how much better those tracks would sound if Timbaland had givenm them to Ginuwine instead. We all know where Justin stands and that poser could never be king of R&B, even if Stevie Wonder, Nile Rogers and Quincy Jones were producing him. If biting off R&B wasn't making him money, he'd be doing something else.

You can have your articles and charts. I'll take my culture, thank you. That does not invalidate white artists that do actually do R&B music by any stretch. Just don't be so quick to decide who's king if you aren't already deep in the culture.

BlaqueKnight said:

George Michael was never an R&B artist. He was crossover, which is why so many people had a problem with him winning best R&B artist back in '89. Back then, people tried to justify it with "Bobby McFarren won best pop song" but "Don't Worry; Be happy" was a pop song. "Faith" was NOT an R&B record any more than Adele's 21 is. It did have songs that could be considered R&B on it but that was not the overall content of the record. He was not really a "favorite R&B male vocalist" in the eyes of the R&B community. To this day, I have never met an R&B head that lists George Michael as one of their favorite R&B vocalists.

Trying to wrap my head around this.

When's the last time a person of color has a had a #1 hit on the Bilboard Rock charts?

I keep hearing all this how music is 'colorblind' so I assume if it was that there must be a ton of rock music acts frequenting that chart that aren't white...

Unholyalliance said:

When's the last time a person of color has a had a #1 hit on the Bilboard Rock charts?

I keep hearing all this how music is 'colorblind' so I assume if it was that there must be a ton of rock music acts frequenting that chart that aren't white...

FWIW, Slash had a #1 song last year ("You're a Lie") and he was part of Velvet Revolver, which had one almost 10 years ago. As you guessed, just like in this case it doesn't happen a lot.

Unholyalliance said:

When's the last time a person of color has a had a #1 hit on the Bilboard Rock charts?

I keep hearing all this how music is 'colorblind' so I assume if it was that there must be a ton of rock music acts frequenting that chart that aren't white...

That's an issue that is swept under the rug way too much. I think Soul-Patrol wrote this topic a while back. I wish more publications would write about this issue.

Unholyalliance said:

I keep hearing all this how music is 'colorblind'

If that is so, then why is there Christian (generally white ie. Michael W. Smith, Sandi Patty, BarlowGirl) and Gospel (generally black ie. Clark Sisters, Winans, Andre Crouch). There's separate charts for them too.

NDRU said:

At least it's not Miley Cyrus.

Speaking of your Girl Miley..Have you seen her LATELY? She chopped her hair off and look like Clay Aiken's twin brother. She needs a Chaka Khan or Dolly Parton wig BAD!!!

Justine & Robin prove that White Singers that prefer to record R&B music can sustain a Career. Pink had no other choice but to go Pop/Rock. She's got a soulful voice but her music wasnt getting much play on R&B and Pop stations. Going straight Pop was the BEST move for her career cuz now she's celebrated around the world and still sings with Soul & Passion.

Chancellor said:

Why learn to sing and play instruments well when you can rap? That's the problem. Poor folks are driven to do things to better their situation and what do the current role models teach? Rap. It's easy. Just speak angrily in rhyme over a beat. The path of least resistance is taken because no one wants to be poor and un-famous any longer than they have to, right?

"Da Game" and it's players refer to it as a business, not art. If your primary concern as a sub-culture is getting paid, being "at Da Club" drinking and looking for bitches and ho's, then who is going to carry the torch? American blues musicians back in the day weren't thinking much about the future. They were just trying to eat. 99% percent of them weren't thinking about their legacy. The British kids who heard this music did more with it than the originators ever dreamt, including making money. Without American blues Led Zeppelin would never have existed. Jimi Hendrix came form the blues and he believed he could do something other than spend his life on the Chitlin' Circuit. He thought bigger than style and race and he's still revered to this day. It's all about the mind, not the skin color.

It's a socio-economic/cultural thing, not a racial thing. Poor uneducated people, (of any color) tend to suck hind tit in their intellectual endeavors while others excel. There are always exceptions, of course.

BlaqueKnight said:

Now its Robin Thicke & Justin Timberlake? I have to consider the source of the misinformation. These are the same people who will in one breath, say R&B is dead and yet never make mention of the contribution of singers like Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton or Bilal. Some of the people making those claims don't even know who they are. Erykah Badu just dropped off the planet, huh?

It's really sad that there are still so many people (even black people) who have absolutely no idea who Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton and Bilal are and can't name a single song they've recorded. Yet, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who hasn't heard of Justin or Robin. And it's not that these dudes make better music than Angie, Anthony or Bilal. Far from it. The difference is Justin and Robin have these gigantic, MASS marketing machines behind them while the others, because either they don't fit a certain mold or have rotten management, just have to kinda shuffle along on their own with minimal promotion from their labels, hoping that their records will get some spins at adult black radio and that someone realizes that they have new products on the market.

Besides Beyonce, Rhianna and Chris Brown, I can't really think of any contemporary black singers (non Hip-Hop) who have been afforded the same kinds of marketing opportunities. And to be honest, I think a lot of the recognition those 3 have had comes from the fact that they are in tabloids or tabloid shows everyday and that's why so many people know who they are. I can't name a single Rhianna or Chris Brown song but I know more about them than I want or need to know because everytime I turn on the TV or open up a magazine, they are being shoved down my throat because of something silly that they did. It's very seldom about their music.

kitbradley said:

BlaqueKnight said:

Now its Robin Thicke & Justin Timberlake? I have to consider the source of the misinformation. These are the same people who will in one breath, say R&B is dead and yet never make mention of the contribution of singers like Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton or Bilal. Some of the people making those claims don't even know who they are. Erykah Badu just dropped off the planet, huh?

It's really sad that there are still so many people (even black people) who have absolutely no idea who Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton and Bilal are and can't name a single song they've recorded. Yet, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who hasn't heard of Justin or Robin. And it's not that these dudes make better music than Angie, Anthony or Bilal. Far from it. The difference is Justin and Robin have these gigantic, MASS marketing machines behind them while the others, because either they don't fit a certain mold or have rotten management, just have to kinda shuffle along on their own with minimal promotion from their labels, hoping that their records will get some spins at adult black radio and that someone realizes that they have new products on the market.

kitbradley said:

It's really sad that there are still so many people (even black people) who have absolutely no idea who Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton and Bilal are and can't name a single song they've recorded.

I think it's more sad that many people automatically assume black = R&B/funk/rap or that all black people only listen to that. If they don't make R&B they're accused of sounding "white" and/or "selling out" (Johnny Mathis, Sammy Davis Jr, Nancy Wilson, Charlie Pride, Tracy Chapman). It's like people talking about Lionel Richie, Pointer Sisters, and Natalie Cole abandoned R&B and funk to make pop records. Why should they only record R&B if that's not what they want to do? Why is it with some black people (in the US) that if you don't listen to R&B/rap, and listen to something else like country, metal, or opera (and don't dress in a hip hop style), they look at you strange and say that it's "white boy" music.

BlaqueKnight said:

I personally find it curious that white people in general would never consider saying something like "I don't see Bhangra as Indian music" or "I don't see K Pop as Korean or J Pop as Japanese." They would never fix their mouths to say I don't see Reggae as Island music. Yet these same people feel that American musical artforms created by American blacks should somehow not be directly and solely associated with with the peeople that made and initially, SOLELY supported it. Jazz, blues and dare I say it, ROCK, all started within the American black community and during their initial stages, were solely supported by black people. (In this conversation, black = African American).

Being influenced by something is different than being something. Cream by Prince is a SLIGHT reworking of Bang A Gong by T. Rex. The lyrics are not even that different. However slight the differences, Cream is not Bang a Gong. When The Levee Breaks by Led Zepplin is so far removed from the "black" music it came from as to be a totally different style of music, therefore not black music. Those guys will tell you at the drop of a dime how much American, (black) blues music influenced them and I can't think of a white person alive who knows anything about Led Zeppelin who would say they are descended from those roots. Nevertheless, A Model T. is not a Volvo S60, though the influence is clear. Influence is also different than theft.

Crossroads by Robert Johnson is not Stairway to Heaven. Hell, it's not even Crossraods by Cream other than the lyrics. I'm a cracker and I'll tell you right now that I don't see K-Pop as Korean or J-Pop as Japanese. To me the only thing that makes them Korean or Japanese is the language. The music is a limp-wristed attempt to imitate the absolute WORST entertainment America has to offer. Take any blues-influenced classic rock track and compare it to the blues it came from and you'll find very little in common, though the influence is pretty obvious. Listen to K or J-Pop and the track and melody could be any shitty N'Sync, Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys bullshit. Drop English language vocals on that shit and there's no difference. I can fix my mouth to say all types of crazy shit. Such as:

Henry Ford's first car really started the whole thing. The Model T, however, is only like a Volvo S60 in that it has 4 tires and a steering wheel. Robert Johnson is a Model T. and Cream is a Volvo S60, (and I hate Cream). Both classics, no doubt, but completely different.

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of modern music, (pop, rock, whatever) can be directly traced back to African American roots, but where did THAT music come from if after a few generations in African American slaves lost their language, religion and cultural memories? If so little was preserved how much did white folk's hymns influence early African Americans and how did THAT music evolve into the blues? Classical music that was the foundation of white church music is based on I-IV-V. Blues. What up?

If you take jazz and its acknowledged groudbreakers, (John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock) they will tell you that non-african modern classical music shaped much of THEIR innovations. John Coltrane's historic composition Giant Steps was lifted directly from Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesarus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, (a book, BTW, that John Coltrane was known to have carried around and practiced from religiously). I made a note of what page number I found it on. If I remember this thread in the morning perhaps I'll post a scan so we can see the entire melody to Giant Steps written by a guy who was largely unaware of anything but European modern classical/art music. Modern music has evolved so much that even African Americans don't play that shit anymore. If you were to take an R. Kelly album, go back in time and play it for Ray Charles he would not recognize it as R&B. I don't either, for that matter, but that's beside the point.

This is a crazy argument. Art, (and everything else in life) is built on the shoulders of those who came before. I wonder if Africans would complain that African Americans stole THEIR music, changed it and aren't giving THEM credit?

There has been enormous amounts of cultural cross-pollination both ways. Robert Johnson couldn't have done what Cream did to his songs. What does THAT mean? Nothing, really. It means someone did something, others consumed it and advanced it onward to the next step. Does Living Colour have to acknowledge their debt of gratitude to Cream? Living Colour has more in common with Cream than Robert Johnson and others like him. Hell, Vernon Reid plays with Jack Bruce on occasion.

Black, white, black, white, black, white. I did this, they did that. Holy shit, people. The overwelming odds are that not one of us currently living and on this message board has done jack shit that will live on in history. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I can brag about the theory of relativity and just because someone is black doesn't mean they personally can claim to have invented music. Brilliant HUMANS came up with our modern cultures, societies and advancements. Let's get off this color shit. The insane and factually incorrect rhetoric on BOTH sides is giving me a headache. Black people did not invent music and sports and white people did not invent science and intellectual property theft. Stereotypes go both ways.

Can't we just get along?

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

It's really sad that there are still so many people (even black people) who have absolutely no idea who Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton and Bilal are and can't name a single song they've recorded.

I think it's more sad that many people automatically assume black = R&B/funk/rap or that all black people only listen to that. If they don't make R&B they're accused of sounding "white" and/or "selling out" (Johnny Mathis, Sammy Davis Jr, Nancy Wilson, Charlie Pride, Tracy Chapman). It's like people talking about Lionel Richie, Pointer Sisters, and Natalie Cole abandoned R&B and funk to make pop records. Why should they only record R&B if that's not what they want to do? Why is it with some black people (in the US) that if you don't listen to R&B/rap, and listen to something else like country, metal, or opera (and don't dress in a hip hop style), they look at you strange and say that it's "white boy" music.

BAD BRAINS FTW!!!

MickyDolenz said:

kitbradley said:

It's really sad that there are still so many people (even black people) who have absolutely no idea who Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton and Bilal are and can't name a single song they've recorded.

I think it's more sad that many people automatically assume black = R&B/funk/rap or that all black people only listen to that. If they don't make R&B they're accused of sounding "white" and/or "selling out" (Johnny Mathis, Sammy Davis Jr, Nancy Wilson, Charlie Pride, Tracy Chapman). It's like people talking about Lionel Richie, Pointer Sisters, and Natalie Cole abandoned R&B and funk to make pop records. Why should they only record R&B if that's not what they want to do? Why is it with some black people (in the US) that if you don't listen to R&B/rap, and listen to something else like country, metal, or opera (and don't dress in a hip hop style), they look at you strange and say that it's "white boy" music.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Nancy Wilson a "sell-out".

As far as blacks being made to feel different if they listen to genres outside of Hip-Hop and R&B, I can relate. You should see the bewildered looks I get when I tell people I love Loretta Lynn and Willie Nelson.

[Edited 6/24/13 12:05pm]

steakfinger said:

Why learn to sing and play instruments well when you can rap? That's the problem. Poor folks are driven to do things to better their situation and what do the current role models teach? Rap. It's easy. Just speak angrily in rhyme over a beat. The path of least resistance is taken because no one wants to be poor and un-famous any longer than they have to, right?

"Da Game" and it's players refer to it as a business, not art. If your primary concern as a sub-culture is getting paid, being "at Da Club" drinking and looking for bitches and ho's, then who is going to carry the torch? American blues musicians back in the day weren't thinking much about the future. They were just trying to eat. 99% percent of them weren't thinking about their legacy. The British kids who heard this music did more with it than the originators ever dreamt, including making money. Without American blues Led Zeppelin would never have existed. Jimi Hendrix came form the blues and he believed he could do something other than spend his life on the Chitlin' Circuit. He thought bigger than style and race and he's still revered to this day. It's all about the mind, not the skin color.

It's a socio-economic/cultural thing, not a racial thing. Poor uneducated people, (of any color) tend to suck hind tit in their intellectual endeavors while others excel. There are always exceptions, of course.

awesome

steakfinger said:

BlaqueKnight said:

I personally find it curious that white people in general would never consider saying something like "I don't see Bhangra as Indian music" or "I don't see K Pop as Korean or J Pop as Japanese." They would never fix their mouths to say I don't see Reggae as Island music. Yet these same people feel that American musical artforms created by American blacks should somehow not be directly and solely associated with with the peeople that made and initially, SOLELY supported it. Jazz, blues and dare I say it, ROCK, all started within the American black community and during their initial stages, were solely supported by black people. (In this conversation, black = African American).

Being influenced by something is different than being something. Cream by Prince is a SLIGHT reworking of Bang A Gong by T. Rex. The lyrics are not even that different. However slight the differences, Cream is not Bang a Gong. When The Levee Breaks by Led Zepplin is so far removed from the "black" music it came from as to be a totally different style of music, therefore not black music. Those guys will tell you at the drop of a dime how much American, (black) blues music influenced them and I can't think of a white person alive who knows anything about Led Zeppelin who would say they are descended from those roots. Nevertheless, A Model T. is not a Volvo S60, though the influence is clear. Influence is also different than theft.

Crossroads by Robert Johnson is not Stairway to Heaven. Hell, it's not even Crossraods by Cream other than the lyrics. I'm a cracker and I'll tell you right now that I don't see K-Pop as Korean or J-Pop as Japanese. To me the only thing that makes them Korean or Japanese is the language. The music is a limp-wristed attempt to imitate the absolute WORST entertainment America has to offer. Take any blues-influenced classic rock track and compare it to the blues it came from and you'll find very little in common, though the influence is pretty obvious. Listen to K or J-Pop and the track and melody could be any shitty N'Sync, Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys bullshit. Drop English language vocals on that shit and there's no difference. I can fix my mouth to say all types of crazy shit. Such as:

Henry Ford's first car really started the whole thing. The Model T, however, is only like a Volvo S60 in that it has 4 tires and a steering wheel. Robert Johnson is a Model T. and Cream is a Volvo S60, (and I hate Cream). Both classics, no doubt, but completely different.

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of modern music, (pop, rock, whatever) can be directly traced back to African American roots, but where did THAT music come from if after a few generations in African American slaves lost their language, religion and cultural memories? If so little was preserved how much did white folk's hymns influence early African Americans and how did THAT music evolve into the blues? Classical music that was the foundation of white church music is based on I-IV-V. Blues. What up?

If you take jazz and its acknowledged groudbreakers, (John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock) they will tell you that non-african modern classical music shaped much of THEIR innovations. John Coltrane's historic composition Giant Steps was lifted directly from Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesarus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, (a book, BTW, that John Coltrane was known to have carried around and practiced from religiously). I made a note of what page number I found it on. If I remember this thread in the morning perhaps I'll post a scan so we can see the entire melody to Giant Steps written by a guy who was largely unaware of anything but European modern classical/art music. Modern music has evolved so much that even African Americans don't play that shit anymore. If you were to take an R. Kelly album, go back in time and play it for Ray Charles he would not recognize it as R&B. I don't either, for that matter, but that's beside the point.

This is a crazy argument. Art, (and everything else in life) is built on the shoulders of those who came before. I wonder if Africans would complain that African Americans stole THEIR music, changed it and aren't giving THEM credit?

There has been enormous amounts of cultural cross-pollination both ways. Robert Johnson couldn't have done what Cream did to his songs. What does THAT mean? Nothing, really. It means someone did something, others consumed it and advanced it onward to the next step. Does Living Colour have to acknowledge their debt of gratitude to Cream? Living Colour has more in common with Cream than Robert Johnson and others like him. Hell, Vernon Reid plays with Jack Bruce on occasion.

Black, white, black, white, black, white. I did this, they did that. Holy shit, people. The overwelming odds are that not one of us currently living and on this message board has done jack shit that will live on in history. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I can brag about the theory of relativity and just because someone is black doesn't mean they personally can claim to have invented music. Brilliant HUMANS came up with our modern cultures, societies and advancements. Let's get off this color shit. The insane and factually incorrect rhetoric on BOTH sides is giving me a headache. Black people did not invent music and sports and white people did not invent science and intellectual property theft. Stereotypes go both ways.

Can't we just get along?

I guess the arguement can be made that since musical forms like jazz and blues are highly revered, the knee jerk reaction is to immediately democratize its origins. Consequently if it were universally understood that white folks were responsible for the origins there'd be no arguement. But I wholly get what you're saying.

I don't get people saying that it takes no talent to rap. Rap is not something anyone can do, nor can they do turntablism. All rap is not the same. Just because someone can play an instrument does not mean their music is better than someone else's who can't. Playing an instrument doesn't really require any special talent. It can be taught and learned, and it depends on the interest/dedication of the player. Some types of music like punk, originally the whole idea was not to play well. It was a partly a rebellion against prog rock and arena rock with long solos and 20 minute songs with Dungeon & Dragons type lyrics.

.

A lot of those musicians decades ago were loners and probably had nothing better to to than practice their instrument all the time (and less technology such as video games & cell phones to keep them occupied), so of course they became better players, but it wasn't necessarily because they had more talent than someone who wasn't as interested. Others, like The Jackson 5, had parents making them practice, when many times they wanted to go out and play with the other kids or do school sports. If left to themselves without Papa Joe hounding them, would they have become a group at all? Joe said one of the reasons in making them practice constantly was to keep them off the street and joining neighborhood gangs. Also some of them were children/teens performing in strip clubs/juke joints/bars (Beatles, Jackson 5, Billie Holiday) which won't fly today.

Rapping well is hard, but singing period is harder than rapping.

steakfinger said:

Being influenced by something is different than being something. Cream by Prince is a SLIGHT reworking of Bang A Gong by T. Rex. The lyrics are not even that different. However slight the differences, Cream is not Bang a Gong. When The Levee Breaks by Led Zepplin is so far removed from the "black" music it came from as to be a totally different style of music, therefore not black music. Those guys will tell you at the drop of a dime how much American, (black) blues music influenced them and I can't think of a white person alive who knows anything about Led Zeppelin who would say they are descended from those roots. Nevertheless, A Model T. is not a Volvo S60, though the influence is clear. Influence is also different than theft.

Crossroads by Robert Johnson is not Stairway to Heaven. Hell, it's not even Crossraods by Cream other than the lyrics. I'm a cracker and I'll tell you right now that I don't see K-Pop as Korean or J-Pop as Japanese. To me the only thing that makes them Korean or Japanese is the language. The music is a limp-wristed attempt to imitate the absolute WORST entertainment America has to offer. Take any blues-influenced classic rock track and compare it to the blues it came from and you'll find very little in common, though the influence is pretty obvious. Listen to K or J-Pop and the track and melody could be any shitty N'Sync, Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys bullshit. Drop English language vocals on that shit and there's no difference. I can fix my mouth to say all types of crazy shit. Such as:

Henry Ford's first car really started the whole thing. The Model T, however, is only like a Volvo S60 in that it has 4 tires and a steering wheel. Robert Johnson is a Model T. and Cream is a Volvo S60, (and I hate Cream). Both classics, no doubt, but completely different.

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of modern music, (pop, rock, whatever) can be directly traced back to African American roots, but where did THAT music come from if after a few generations in African American slaves lost their language, religion and cultural memories? If so little was preserved how much did white folk's hymns influence early African Americans and how did THAT music evolve into the blues? Classical music that was the foundation of white church music is based on I-IV-V. Blues. What up?

If you take jazz and its acknowledged groudbreakers, (John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock) they will tell you that non-african modern classical music shaped much of THEIR innovations. John Coltrane's historic composition Giant Steps was lifted directly from Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesarus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, (a book, BTW, that John Coltrane was known to have carried around and practiced from religiously). I made a note of what page number I found it on. If I remember this thread in the morning perhaps I'll post a scan so we can see the entire melody to Giant Steps written by a guy who was largely unaware of anything but European modern classical/art music. Modern music has evolved so much that even African Americans don't play that shit anymore. If you were to take an R. Kelly album, go back in time and play it for Ray Charles he would not recognize it as R&B. I don't either, for that matter, but that's beside the point.

This is a crazy argument. Art, (and everything else in life) is built on the shoulders of those who came before. I wonder if Africans would complain that African Americans stole THEIR music, changed it and aren't giving THEM credit?

There has been enormous amounts of cultural cross-pollination both ways. Robert Johnson couldn't have done what Cream did to his songs. What does THAT mean? Nothing, really. It means someone did something, others consumed it and advanced it onward to the next step. Does Living Colour have to acknowledge their debt of gratitude to Cream? Living Colour has more in common with Cream than Robert Johnson and others like him. Hell, Vernon Reid plays with Jack Bruce on occasion.

Black, white, black, white, black, white. I did this, they did that. Holy shit, people. The overwelming odds are that not one of us currently living and on this message board has done jack shit that will live on in history. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I can brag about the theory of relativity and just because someone is black doesn't mean they personally can claim to have invented music. Brilliant HUMANS came up with our modern cultures, societies and advancements. Let's get off this color shit. The insane and factually incorrect rhetoric on BOTH sides is giving me a headache. Black people did not invent music and sports and white people did not invent science and intellectual property theft. Stereotypes go both ways.

Can't we just get along?

Cool story, bro.

The problem is that this seems to ONLY become an issue when African Americans "dare" have the "nerve" to actually claim something as their own.

MickyDolenz said:

I think it's more sad that many people automatically assume black = R&B/funk/rap

STOP.

What you say after this is NOT the same as the above statement...

or that all black people only listen to that. If they don't make R&B they're accused of sounding "white" and/or "selling out" (Johnny Mathis, Sammy Davis Jr, Nancy Wilson, Charlie Pride, Tracy Chapman). It's like people talking about Lionel Richie, Pointer Sisters, and Natalie Cole abandoned R&B and funk to make pop records. Why should they only record R&B if that's not what they want to do? Why is it with some black people (in the US) that if you don't listen to R&B/rap, and listen to something else like country, metal, or opera (and don't dress in a hip hop style), they look at you strange and say that it's "white boy" music.

And I think its sad that people would actually have the nerve to have a problem with R&B/funk/rap being associated with being PRIMARILY AFRICAN AMERICAN when IT IS!!!!!!!! WTF is wrong with some of you? Afraid of the truth or just to bigoted to give credit where its due? Everyone is so eager to play politically correct that they will tell whatever lie they think they can get away with to attempt to mae everything appear P.C.

Truth:

Rock is done primarily by whites in the U.S.

R&B is done primarily by blacks in the U.S.

Anything else is a g-damned LIE. Flat out untruth.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHO ORIGINATED WHAT, BUT THE STATE OF MUSIC TODAY IN 2013.

It has absolutely nothing to do with listeners and listeners' tastes. I listen to almost everything myself and would never suggest that someone's musical listening experience be limited. I just despise culture vultures and anyone who would try to re-write history in their favor fpr the sake of trying to be politically correct..

[Edited 6/25/13 0:01am]

The only reason why I would ever give a hoot about any chart is that I'd want that particular artist to be succesfull and be able to continue making great music. But this was when I was in my teens/early twenties.

Charts mean absolutely fuckall, except if you're looking for validation and cannot comprehend that some people do not share your taste in music, and you need a chart position to prove your point.
Or perhaps when you care about how much money a certain artist makes?

The whole racial issue (music-wise) is, in my humble opinion rather typical for North America. In Holland we never gave a fuck and just gave credit where credit is due.

My personal love for music comes mainly from black artists, but that's not to say that white people cannot make great music too.

BlaqueKnight said:

Rock is done primarily by whites in the U.S.

R&B is done primarily by blacks in the U.S.

Saying that R&B is mostly black people and that black automatically means R&B and rap are two different things, one is a stereotype. I made no comment about the main race of who made R&B/rap, so I don't know how you came up that the first line of my comment had nothing to do with the rest when it does. Saying that some people say Johnny Mathis makes "white" music has everything to do with the stereotype of black means R&B/funk/rap. I even said in an earlier comment that Christian music was primarily white and Gospel music was primarily black. So you're reading something that is not there.

MacDaddy said:

The whole racial issue (music-wise) is, in my humble opinion rather typical for North America. In Holland we never gave a fuck and just gave credit where credit is due.

Yeah there's a lot of "Elvis stole black music" thinking here, but say nothing about Aretha Franklin and other soul singers who sometimes had white musicians (ie. Muscle Shoals) playing the music on their records and white producers. On King Records, there was sometimes black musicians playing on country singers records and a black man (Henry Glover) writing a lot of the country songs.

MacDaddy said:

The whole racial issue (music-wise) is, in my humble opinion rather typical for North America. In Holland we never gave a fuck and just gave credit where credit is due.

Americans are chronically obsessed with race and skin color. Sadly, it affects every aspect of our daily lives, like a poison that permeates the senses but is most potent in the heart.

Identity said:

MacDaddy said:

The whole racial issue (music-wise) is, in my humble opinion rather typical for North America. In Holland we never gave a fuck and just gave credit where credit is due.

Americans are chronically obsessed with race and skin color. Sadly, it affects every aspect of our daily lives, like a poison that permeates the senses but is most potent in the heart.

Yes, "they" are.

[img:$uid]http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/whites-only-paul-mashburn.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://www.tn4me.org/images/upload/File/02No-Dogs.jpg[/img:$uid]

[img:$uid]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-skV7YChx3RI/URDbahuheaI/AAAAAAACXII/BG-GQu7zdKQ/s640/Whites+Only+-+Racism+in+The+U.S.,+1955+%285%29.jpg[/img:$uid]

Its funny how some people would smack you and then say "why did you hit me?" when you hit them back. That seems to be the current cultural trend these days.

There's a lot of ugly history that some keep trying to bury but you can't bury the truth because it never stays buried.

Its strange how mainstream media, who has never before really cared about R&B, would make a claim that Justin and Thicke are on top but they eliminated the best R&B category from the Grammys and when I go to the R&B spots, I hear Miguel is the "king" of the moment.

Now whom would I listen to? Its like Merle Haggard trying to tell me what's hot in the streets.

kitbradley said:

Stymie said:

Okay let me phrase it a different way? Why do YOU care what color they are?

I don't give a rat's behind what color they are. I was just pointing out a FACT that two white guys are topping the R&B charts, it was unusual and asking has that ever happened before? Why is it when someone points out Joe Blow is the first black woman/man to do such-and-such it's fine but when it's the opposite, someone wants to twist it into something racial? Justin and Robin are white, right? They aren't Plaid. So exactly what was wrong with what I said?

Actually it was a good question.