Timmy84 said:

RodeoSchro said:

We tend to forget that Prince's ticket prices for the "Musicology" tour were far below what other artists were charging that year.

What were the prices though? I forgot.

If I remember correctly, they were in the $75 range. I went 3 times.

Took my wife on her birthday, my daughter when Sheila E. opened and my son when Morris Day's version of The Time opened.

Music for adventurous listeners

tA

Tribal Records

theAudience said:

Timmy84 said:

What were the prices though? I forgot.

If I remember correctly, they were in the $75 range. I went 3 times.

Took my wife on her birthday, my daughter when Sheila E. opened and my son when Morris Day's version of The Time opened.

Music for adventurous listeners

tA

Tribal Records

I see...

Letsetz keeps on Rolling The Stones

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

More Clueless Stones

Check this out:

"Mick's Message to the Bay Area": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY1iShruBXg

It's like a bad SNL skit, a bozo politician doing an inadequate job of reading from the Teleprompter.

And how about this from the Echoplex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CRmt0JTSNc

That's the video on the Stones' official YouTube page. Listen to Keith's solo starting around :35, if you're not laughing, you're used to hearing your three year old play the guitar.

How did they get it so wrong?

You know the drill... You play the Super Bowl and you put up the shows the next morning, while the memory is still fresh in the public's brain, before people forget the hype and excitement of the moment. Hell, I can't even remember who won last year's Super Bowl, I've just about forgotten "Argo" won Best Picture. We're inundated with so much information, the news cycle is so fast, that if you don't capitalize on your fame in days, you're missing out.

So the Stones do their fiftieth anniversary shows last fall.

It's kind of like Zeppelin at the 02. There may never be another show, you've got to overpay to go now, to be part of the excitement. And then MONTHS later, when there's no buzz whatsoever, the band puts up shows at the same inflated ticket prices. Huh?

Where's the manager?

There is none.

And you need one. An act without a manager is like an attorney representing himself, he's got a fool for a client. You need a third eye, an opinion from outside the maelstrom, to give you perspective.

The entire Rolling Stones YouTube page (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRollingStones)...was an afterthought. How do I know? Because the views are so low. Remember when the Stones used to premiere videos on TV, how they used to work the public into a frenzy? Now there is no frenzy, there's no cook creating the perception that if you don't go, you're a loser. All you see is greed.

And if you're that damn greedy, do it like the rest of the superstars. Scalp your own tickets.

That's the Michael Cohl model. We pay you a lump sum, and you can't ask how we got that money.

But for prior tours, Cohl had a team of experts, a seamless machine, selling fan club memberships and merch and raking up the capital. This tour is a positively last minute venture with no vision and even poorer execution.

1. Perception Is Everything In The Music Business

Yes, the tickets could theoretically be worth $600, but if you ask for that much, you're separating yourself from your audience. Sell platinum tickets with B.S. perks, a laminate and the ability to meet Ron Wood or some other superfluous member of the band (I'd say Charlie, but I'm not sure he can speak.)

You build your fan base not on the rich who can pay anything, but the poor who can't afford much. Yes, in today's rich versus poor society, and if you don't think there's class warfare, you didn't notice that Obama got reelected, you have to appear to be one of the people if you want to sell to the people. There are not enough 1%ers to fill arenas at these prices.

2. Ticketmaster

The public hates Ticketmaster, even though everybody in the business knows it's a front for the acts. Yup, those inflated fees go to the promoter, the buildings, on previous tours even to the Stones. You need a scapegoat. But the Stones messed up here, there is no scapegoat, the blame falls squarely on their shoulders.

3. Don't Be Afraid To Share The Money

You pay professional management its commission so you can make more money. It's kind of like hiring an accountant...they don't come cheap, but they save you more than their fee, because that's what they do all day long, taxes. Mick Jagger is hobnobbing with his rich socialite buddies, he's got no idea what's going on in the music business, which seemingly changes every six months. He needed fresh, experienced eyes on this.

4. There Are No Secrets

The Stones, like Led Zeppelin, were built on mystery. But there is no mystery today. So either you can be like many old farts and restrict taping and photography, which is kind of like telling kids not to have sex, or you can embrace it. If the Stones are crappy live, they should have their official site filled with fan videos, which we all expect to be crappy. We then go to the show to hear the real deal, up close and personal. But when the official videos sound crappy...you think the band is.

5. Social

If you don't embrace it, you can't energize fans.

The Stones are playing to the mainstream press. And although their audience is the last vestige of those who pay attention to it, they should be tweeting and Facebooking to humanize themselves. It speaks to perception. They need to get down in the pit with their audience.

6. Scalping

Paperless. Sure, savvy scalpers can elude the system, then again, it would require a drop in ticket prices to generate excitement, and the Stones don't seem willing to leave a single dollar on the table.

7. People Talk

Used to be everything was rumor and innuendo, and you didn't hear much more than what your neighbors had to say, but now with the Internet people can not only read reports from around the world, they can interact with others.

8. Virality

That's how you sell out a show. By getting everybody talking about it, making them fearful of missing it. There's no virality here. Hell, look at the YouTube views!

9. Desperation

It's anathema. It's the same in music as it is in dating. If you need it that bad, we're turned off. I received the following e-mails:

"Another thing that shows what a disaster this tour is/was is that they actually ANNOUNCED their previously secret/surprise special guests early in the day to try and build hype! The stones official account tweeted about Keith Urban and Gwen Stefani's appearances early in the day. Why in the world would you do this if it was supposed to be a surprise other than to try and scramble to get people to come down? They were just reaching for anything at this point. Today they announced Tom Waits guest appearance for Oakland. What a joke."

And:

"Twitter made big bucks last night. The feed was full of Twads and I mean 7-10 in a row time and time again, espousing all their special guests."

It's supposed to be a SURPRISE!

10. Flex Pricing

link:

"Rolling Stones Concert Promoter On 'Flex Pricing' Ticket Strategy: 'I Want the Brokers Pissed Off'":http://bit.ly/1426WgN

Let's assume this was AEG's plan all along, WHY DIDN'T THEY TELL ANYBODY?

This is kind of like paying a grand for an airline ticket the week of and finding out if you'd booked a month in advance, it'd be $350. Don't create a game without telling us the rules.

11. Lies

If you believe there were no $85 customers sitting next to $600 customers, you probably believe everything you read in the newspaper. You can tell the press whatever you want, and the people on the music beat, those who remain, who were not downsized out of existence, will print it. Because they want the access, they want the free tickets. That's what the entire music press is built upon, access. But if you wouldn't rather speak to a tech titan than a rocker, you own no smartphone and are unable to cogitate.

12. The Press

Read the "New York Times" article wherein it's stated that Roger Ailes cut Geraldo Rivera's mic when he was defending Obama on Fox. But it gets better, Benghazi was a big story because Fox hammered it.

Read the facts here:

"Behind the Scenes at Fox": http://nyti.ms/18UX7lL

Then again, this is long after the fact. And the "Times" story is reporting on a book.

Which is why if you want to know what's going on in music, you go to the web, the one place the Stones forgot to look.

13. "Rolling Stone" Cover Story

It's supposed to come out BEFORE the tour begins. That's like letting you flip through "Playboy" before asking for payment for the magazine. No, that's like watching Internet porn, getting off, and then being asked to pay. Music is a sideshow, a carnival, which is why Colonel Tom Parker did so well for Elvis. And yes, he might have ripped Presley off, not gone to Europe for fear of being revealed to be an illegal alien, but Parker made and sustained his career. There's yet to be a superstar without a great manager. Because performing and managing are two different skills!

14. You Come Out With Both Guns Blazing And Establish Your Narrative

The Stones have lost control of their story. Meglen didn't come out and defend their ticketing practices until days after shows began.

15. Things Change

Just because you sold a ton of tickets yesterday, that does not mean you can sell a ton today. Yes, the Stones could have sold out no problem if every ticket was $85, and furthermore, scalpers for superstar shows beget tons of press about how impossible it is to get in, how expensive it is, which only burnishes an act's image.

16. We All Want What We Can't Have

We should be salivating and unable to get a ticket. Instead, everybody can attend, even up to the very last minute. It's kind of like queuing up at the Apple Store for the latest product and finding out no one else is in line. Huh? The day one of Apple's new products falls flat is the day the company's done.


Once again, it all comes down to money.

Didn't used to be that way, it used to be about music. And fame. And sex. You wanted to have sex with Mick Jagger. Do you want to have sex with that emaciated guy in the video above? Eek! Maybe, but only to be able to tell your friends!

The eighties were the height of fame, because that's what TV gives you, ubiquity. Radio can't compete.

And today it's all about music. If you're in it for the money, you're in the wrong business. Follow Bono's lead, become a venture capitalist.

And if you do decide to play music, get a great manager. Gene Simmons likes to bloviate how it's all about the money, but without Bill Aucoin, he'd have none.


--
Visit the archive: http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
--

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Music for adventurous listeners

tA

Tribal Records

NME reports the Stones are forced to cut a fee due to their tickets not being immediate sold outs. What did they expect?! Kid Rock's gonna make them look stupid.

Timmy84 said:

theAudience said:

I caught quite a few Forum shows at that price.

The difference here I believe is that all the Kid Rock tickets are priced at $20 (with the option to upgrade), not just some of the tickets.

Music for adventurous listeners

tA

Tribal Records

Yeah Prince only sold SOME. It would've been great if he had everybody pay only $20 for tickets.

Nothing dude does is good enough. This is not the 1970s I do not expect to go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread for .50 and I do not expect for concert tickets to be $20.00. The prices are based on what the market can will bare. When the public stops paying the ticket prices will come down but certain acts are going to get away with charging high prices because people really like those acts and will pay any amount to see them in concert. Kid Rock is not on the level of the Rolling Stones or Prince as a live performer and should be charging $20.00 bucks.

purple1968 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah Prince only sold SOME. It would've been great if he had everybody pay only $20 for tickets.

Nothing dude does is good enough. This is not the 1970s I do not expect to go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread for .50 and I do not expect for concert tickets to be $20.00. The prices are based on what the market can will bare. When the public stops paying the ticket prices will come down but certain acts are going to get away with charging high prices because people really like those acts and will pay any amount to see them in concert. Kid Rock is not on the level of the Rolling Stones or Prince as a live performer and should be charging $20.00 bucks.

Most folk aren't looking people to pay 1970's prices; the going rate back in the day was between $5.50 and $8.50. What is the rate of inflation, 4.08%? So, those tickets would cost about ~ $47.00 bucks today. People aren't looking to be gouged either.

Timmy84 said:

NME reports the Stones are forced to cut a fee due to their tickets not being immediate sold outs. What did they expect?! Kid Rock's gonna make them look stupid.

I'm not surprised but indicative of the economic recession, it would have been nice if artist consider pricing their tickets accordingly. As I said previously... entitlement and greed.

Excellent thread! Great info! Thanks, tA!

As to Prince's ticket prices in 2004, here's a chart from Pollstar:

2004 Top 100 Tours

R TG Artist Avg. TP Avg..Tks Total Tks Ave Grs Cts/Shws Agent
1 87.4 Prince 61.04 20,745 1,431,454 1,266,321 69/96 Concerts West
2 80.4 Celine Dion 136.33 3,827 589,494 521,763 1/154 United Talent Agency
3 79.5 Madonna 143.59 39,536 553,505 5,677,185 14/39 Creative Artists Agency
4 60.5 Metallica 57.39 13,871 1,054,238 796,116 76/83 Artist Group International
5 59.4 Bette Midler 99.12 9,825 599,325 973,920 61/66 Creative Artists Agency
6 54.3 Van Halen 76.44 9,868 710,504 754,392 72/79 William Morris / Podell Talent
7 50.8 Kenny Chesney 44.40 15,252 1,143,909 676,759 75/77 Dale Morris & Associates
8 50.1 Sting 66.84 10,273 749,988 686,649 73/83 Creative Artists Agency
9 43.7 Toby Keith 47.83 12,344 913,520 590,508 74/75 Monterey Peninsula Artists
10 43.3 Elton John 158.22 24,862 273,483 3,933,831 11/60 The Howard Rose Agency
11 42.5 Rod Stewart 74.78 7,194 568,333 537,975 79/81 Artist Group International
12 41.2 Dave Matthews Band 43.32 27,984 951,488 1,212,493 34/47 Monterey Peninsula Artists
13 40.1 Tim McGraw 52.48 12,735 764,100 668,343 60/64 Creative Artists Agency
14 34.6 Jimmy Buffett 59.57 22,339 580,829 1,330,769 26/30 The Howard Rose Agency
15 34.5 Shania Twain 65.55 13,148 525,930 861,967 40/42 Creative Artists Agency
16 34.0 Alan Jackson / Martina McBride 51.50 11,380 660,040 586,061 58/58 Creative Artists Agency
17 29.1 Cher 65.19 8,940 447,039 582,807 50/54 Rock Steady Mgmt Agency
18 29.1 Usher 58.45 13,103 497,951 765,881 38/42 International Creative Mgmt.
19 29.0 Eric Clapton 69.25 14,461 419,394 1,001,526 29/33 Creative Artists Agency
20 28.0 Josh Groban 53.96 6,652 518,902 358,974 78/80 William Morris Agency
21 25.6 Aerosmith 57.54 10,865 445,481 625,203 41/41 Monterey Peninsula Artists
22 24.8 George Strait 63.40 15,044 391,167 953,846 26/29 The Erv Woolsey Agency
23 23.8 Phil Collins 76.52 12,933 310,396 989,676 24/26 Agency For The Perf. Arts
24 23.7 Kid Rock 32.72 8,125 723,163 265,857 89/92 Creative Artists Agency
25 23.6 John Mayer 34.18 8,852 690,462 310,526 76/78 Creative Artists Agency

As you can see, Prince's average ticket price was far below the next two artists although to be fair, Celine Dion's "tour" was a Las Vegas residency.

Also interesting (to me) is the sellout ratio. Country artists had the best as a group (only Alan Jackson/Martin McBride and rockers Aerosmith sold out every show). They also had, by and large, the most affordable ticket prices.

Finally, whether it was economics or consistency, good ol' Kid Rock had the lowest ticket prices - even in 2004!

http://pulsemusic.proboar...read/23834

[Edited 5/8/13 7:24am]

purple1968 said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah Prince only sold SOME. It would've been great if he had everybody pay only $20 for tickets.

Nothing dude does is good enough. This is not the 1970s I do not expect to go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread for .50 and I do not expect for concert tickets to be $20.00. The prices are based on what the market can will bare. When the public stops paying the ticket prices will come down but certain acts are going to get away with charging high prices because people really like those acts and will pay any amount to see them in concert. Kid Rock is not on the level of the Rolling Stones or Prince as a live performer and should be charging $20.00 bucks.

So you're basically excusing this as "well it's what big rock stars do?" kind of thing. Yeah forget the people lol

TD3 said:

Timmy84 said:

NME reports the Stones are forced to cut a fee due to their tickets not being immediate sold outs. What did they expect?! Kid Rock's gonna make them look stupid.

I'm not surprised but indicative of the economic recession, it would have been nice if artist consider pricing their tickets accordingly. As I said previously... entitlement and greed.

Exactly. That's just wrong. You gonna charge people an $85 lottery ticket and think people will just go along with it? You see their manager is steadfastly denying it with a passion, right?!

RodeoSchro said:

Also interesting (to me) is the sellout ratio. Country artists had the best as a group (only Alan Jackson/Martin McBride and rockers Aerosmith sold out every show). They also had, by and large, the most affordable ticket prices.

It seems that Country artists have always had a solid relationship with their fan base over the years.

Their fans appear to most consistently buy their records/CDs and pay to see them in concert.

Music for adventurous listeners

tA

Tribal Records

I dunno what Stones groupie crawled up Lefsetz's ass. Is variable pricing good or bad? I don't know any more. First he was like, they should do that, and they do it and fill the place up. And he's still not happy. All delivered with this snarky tone of "if you believe THAT you're a fucking idiot." God he annoys me.

He thinks they need to build a fan base to secure their future? There IS no future! The Stones are gonna be dead soon and the planet is gonna burn to a crisp not many years after that. You;re living in the past if you think there's a future for the Stones, Bob! Quit living in the past!

Maybe it's a disaster if you don't like the music - I thought they were great at Staples Center - but it is not looking like a business diaster by any reasonable measure. Is it a PR disaster? Maybe, they sure are getting a lot of shit this year for bering greedy, more than usual, even though they were always greedy.

It will pass in time, and during that time, they will have many bottles of fine wine to drown the sorrows when they think about how they have alienated their fans and feel the crushing guilt.

Timmy84 said:

Like I said, that's what I'm talkig about...

Timmy84 said:

purple1968 said:

Nothing dude does is good enough. This is not the 1970s I do not expect to go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread for .50 and I do not expect for concert tickets to be $20.00. The prices are based on what the market can will bare. When the public stops paying the ticket prices will come down but certain acts are going to get away with charging high prices because people really like those acts and will pay any amount to see them in concert. Kid Rock is not on the level of the Rolling Stones or Prince as a live performer and should be charging $20.00 bucks.

So you're basically excusing this as "well it's what big rock stars do?" kind of thing. Yeah forget the people lol

No I am saying that people are paying those prices because they want to see the best performers with the best catalogue of music. Prince and Rolling Stones are not going to be performing too much longer so the public is even more pressed to see them as well as the fan base being older and can afford the prices. The public has the power over the prices. The public has spoken and I do think that $20.00 dollars for Kid Rock is appropriate.

They should have price controls on tickets. I'm tired of artists ripping us off. Where the unwashed masses cannot afford to see our favorite artists. A good reason why Prince should release much more live stuff.

2freaky4church1 said:

They should have price controls on tickets. I'm tired of artists ripping us off. Where the unwashed masses cannot afford to see our favorite artists. A good reason why Prince should release much more live stuff.

----------

If you want price controls go to a Socialist country. If I have something to sell the market will decide if the price is appropriate.

SuperSoulFighter said:

Let me be a socialist then. Music should not be available for the rich only.

When are you going to pack your bags and go to another country? Music is not for the rich only. You are free to go see Kid Rock for $20.00 bucks.